Dekonick's Hors Cat in final phase of completion

[Smiley]

About 10 months ago Dekonick picked up a new Bedford Sport Tourer and loved the ride and FIT so much better than his Hors Cat that I made fit him but it was never CUSTOM to Mike so he asked if Kelly would chop his BELOVED Hors Cat and make it fit as well as his Bedford Sport Tourer. Kelly agreed to do this re-fit as Mike is very passionate about how much he loves this bike. So when we re-fitted this Hors we wanted it to still handle like a race bike but we wanted it to fit Mike better than before. This meant shortening up the Top Tube by 0.5 cm, changing the head tube angle and extending the head tube. We are re-using Mikes Ouzo Pro fork and will have this bike out to paint this week and in hopes to have it in Mike's hands very shortly. Ofcourse this re-fit also included adding S&S couplers to his bike for the future flexibility this will alllow Mike when he has more time to travel and bike.

My wife's Legend Ti bike is up next to have the same treatment and for the same reasons as Mike, Her newer CDA fits her so much better she wanted to re-fit her Legend with couplers and re-size it to make for a better fit.
Nothing wrong with her Legend Ti and now with couplers and a re-fit she saves a boat load of FRNS over buying a new Ti coupler bike.

[Smiley]

If anybody out there feels the same passions about their Ti Bike no matter what the brand and wants to couple the bike as well make it FIT better please feel free to contact me for details. Kelly is incorporating his over sized head tube with machined insert which can accomodate many different steerer tube shapes and sizes.
Folks this is some OUTSIDE the box thinking that only a master who has built and designed a boat load of these frames can do.

[Fixed]

my favorite travel bike imho the best i have ever seen
cheers

[93legendti]

Very cool...I've thought of coupling my Concours, maybe slightly shortening the TT...
What's the cost?

[1happygirl]

You are AMAZING fitter !!!!!


You rock, as does the bike!!!

[Hindmost]

So, couplers were added. A new head tube was installed. Were the original top and down tubes shortened and reused?

Very clever re-engineering.

[Smiley]

So, couplers were added. A new head tube was installed. Were the original top and down tubes shortened and reused?

Very clever re-engineering.


ALL new front end, in fact Mike wants his old front end as a memento which we will ship back to him with his new frameset

[Dekonick]

I can hardly wait to build her back up. My eternal gratitude to Kelly Bedford and Smiley for making this project a reality. I almost sent her to PA for a chop... But I just felt better knowing my Serotta was being worked on with Serotta's blessing by one of their former premier builders.

Smiley has kept me informed throughout the entire process. Working with KB and Smiley has been a genuine pleasure. I can whole heartedly recommend this team to retro fit your bike, or build a custom dream bike.

[Dekonick]

Curious what Mr. Kirk thinks...

:)

[DRZRM]

So is everything from couplers forward new? That is SO cool. I'm happy with my Legend's fit or I'd think about itt, ballpark pricing?

[Dekonick]

It is not cheap, but you get what you pay for. I could have gone to PA for ~<1k

KB did my bike for 1800 - not counting paint.

That is a NEW front end. If I did not have the Hors, I would have just had KB build me a new Ti travel bike. The fact remains that the Hors is a special frame that will never be built again. I love the ride enough to have it made travel worthy and fit a bit better at the same time. It still cost less than a new frame, and I get to keep my beloved Hors.

:)

AND it is new from the BB forward, and the top of the seat tube. If you look you will see the weld on the seat tube... from the shim that is welded to the top tube. MORE than new from the couplers forward...

KB gave this some serious thought.

He is a giant in his industry. A true master.

[rugbysecondrow]

It is not cheap, but you get what you pay for. I could have gone to PA for ~<1k

KB did my bike for 1800 - not counting paint.

That is a NEW front end. If I did not have the Hors, I would have just had KB build me a new Ti travel bike. The fact remains that the Hors is a special frame that will never be built again. I love the ride enough to have it made travel worthy and fit a bit better at the same time. It still cost less than a new frame, and I get to keep my beloved Hors.

:)

AND it is new from the BB forward, and the top of the seat tube. If you look you will see the weld on the seat tube... from the shim that is welded to the top tube. MORE than new from the couplers forward...

KB gave this some serious thought.

He is a giant in his industry. A true master.


Looks great, but who is PA?

Can't wait to see it Mike.

[AngryScientist]

but who is PA?



i'm assuming he's referring to bilinkey in pennsylvania.

[avalonracing]

It is not cheap, but you get what you pay for. I could have gone to PA for ~<1k


Hell, I would have done it locally for <$100. But you'd have to use your own duct tape to reconnect it after each tear down.

[rugbysecondrow]

i'm assuming he's referring to bilinkey in pennsylvania.
gotcha, I didn't connect the two. Thanks

[roguedog]

Huh...i didn't know kb worked in ti. I mean i didn't seee it on his website anyway. I assume he`ll build ti frames too? How much for a new frame?

[rugbysecondrow]

Huh...i didn't know kb worked in ti. I mean i didn't seee it on his website anyway. I assume he`ll build ti frames too? How much for a new frame?


He needs to update his site, but I think a custom TI frame w/fork is around $2995. Smiley can update the number if I am incorrect. A KB TI frame is going to be my next bike.

Cheers

Paul

[Ramjm_2000]

Cool Project!

[Smiley]

He needs to update his site, but I think a custom TI frame w/fork is around $2995. Smiley can update the number if I am incorrect. A KB TI frame is going to be my next bike.

Cheers

Paul


website and prices are being updated as we speak. Last years Ti road frame and ENVE fork was $3175.00

[Chance]

Although the only thing that matters is that you like the results the logic of upgrading any classic can be a little difficult to follow. If irreplaceable due to being out of production why “upgrade” it at all? If a classic in limited supply why not leave it as is? If a failed experiment why invest more in it?

To each his own but seems a little like upgrading a classic Ferrari with a lighter, compact and more powerful modern Chevy motor. The end result may be better but it destroys the underlying value in the process. Or if the design was flawed it would be like investing tons of cash in customizing a Mercury Sable. Either way it's hard to process.

Takes guts to do what you did. Hopefully it will be everything you wanted and more.

[Fixed]

k.b. is a master builder he would not take on the project if he were not sure it would rock
imho
cheers

[rugbysecondrow]

Although the only thing that matters is that you like the results the logic of upgrading any classic can be a little difficult to follow. If irreplaceable due to being out of production why “upgrade” it at all? If a classic in limited supply why not leave it as is? If a failed experiment why invest more in it?

To each his own but seems a little like upgrading a classic Ferrari with a lighter, compact and more powerful modern Chevy motor. The end result may be better but it destroys the underlying value in the process. Or if the design was flawed it would be like investing tons of cash in customizing a Mercury Sable. Either way it's hard to process.

Takes guts to do what you did. Hopefully it will be everything you wanted and more.

The point is that Dekonick had the Hors, but realized that he had been riding on a bike the was not properly fit for him it was too big). This mod allows him to add couplers, maintain the DKS rear all with a newly modified TI frame that is custom fit. I think Dekonick said it was around $1800...a new TI frame would run about double that, so it makes sense to modify what you have rather than purchase new. Also, no new DKS being made, so this is the only option.

That is how I read the situation.

[rugbysecondrow]

website and prices are being updated as we speak. Last years Ti road frame and ENVE fork was $3175.00


Thanks, still one hell of a deal.

[Chance]

The point is that Dekonick had the Hors, but realized that he had been riding on a bike the was not properly fit for him it was too big). This mod allows him to add couplers, maintain the DKS rear all with a newly modified TI frame that is custom fit. I think Dekonick said it was around $1800...a new TI frame would run about double that, so it makes sense to modify what you have rather than purchase new. Also, no new DKS being made, so this is the only option.

That is how I read the situation.
Previous posts had made those points clear enough. However, they don't address the issue of "upgrading" a classic into something that is no longer original.

It's not a matter of whether it's better or not, or whether KB knows what it takes to make it "rock" as Fixed implied. It's simply about some people's hesitation on modifying classic anything. A bicycle is just one example.

You can restore a Picasso, but can you upgrade it and still have a Picasso? At what point does it become something less than the original? Fortunately the owner gets to make that call and not the rest of us.

[rugbysecondrow]

Previous posts had made those points clear enough. However, they don't address the issue of "upgrading" a classic into something that is no longer original.

It's not a matter of whether it's better or not, or whether KB knows what it takes to make it "rock" as Fixed implied. It's simply about some people's hesitation on modifying classic anything. A bicycle is just one example.

You can restore a Picasso, but can you upgrade it and still have a Picasso? At what point does it become something less than the original? Fortunately the owner gets to make that call and not the rest of us.

I thought they had as well.

DKS ain't no Picasso, but I see your point. It depends on whether the owner wants to look at the bike or ride it. Mike intends to ride it, so it might as well fit.

[Smiley]

Hey Chance, Plenty of bikes on Flea Bay that are there cause they were failed bike fit experiments. I sold my Hors Cat because it just did not fit me as well as my newer bikes. HAD I KNOWN that I could have chopped her, re-sized her and tweaked the front end handling more to my liking today I would have done that in a milli second.
Wife is chopping her Legend cause she wants it to fit better PLUS she wants couplers which run about a GRAND alone as an add on to a new frame so I think $1800 is not unreasonable to modify an older bike classic or not.

[Ahneida Ride]

Should bikes be ridden ... or are they wall display pieces ?



and currently the used market is so soft, there is really no incentive
to sell.

[Dekonick]

This project was the result of me essentially begging Kelly to take it on. I love my Hors Cat. I have owned an exact copy (geometry wise with the same wheels and components) Legend and I can tell you that the HC was a much better descending bike. I liked the Legend... I love the HC. After KB built me my sport tourer, I found that I like the shorter reach... I am not 20 years old and have smashed my face through a windshield. Lets just say that my fit has changed...

So I am taking a bike I love, and am going to have it fit me just a little bit better... if I could buy a new Hors Cat, this is the geometry I would order. Essentially, I am getting to keep the DKS rear, and have a better fitting front end. FWIW, my HC had a 1 1/8 head tube to start with... so what I am gaining is a better fit... not a modern work-over. In some ways, I am getting 'lesser' tubes as the S&S couplers (to go in the prefered location) had to be placed in non butted tubes. My Legend Hors Categorie had butted tubes... not any more.

I will give a proper evaluation when I get her back. Hopefully (I am sure I will) it will be everything and more. Best part is I can take her with me now... before I went on many family trips sans bike... no longer! :banana:

As far as 'classic' make over... the HC is unique in many ways, but it still retains what makes it magic. I plan to ride many more miles with my rejuvenated friend :)

[Fixed]

[QUOTE=Dekonick]

. Best part is I can take her with me now... before I went on many family trips sans bike... no longer! :banana:
beautiful
enjoy
cheers

[weisan]

very cool....I don't regret selling any of my previous bikes, but the HOrs CAt come close....

http://alicehui.com/serotta/hors_cat_no_topos.jpg

[Brian Smith]

If anybody out there feels the same passions about their Ti Bike no matter what the brand and wants to couple the bike as well make it FIT better please feel free to contact me for details. Kelly is incorporating his over sized head tube with machined insert which can accomodate many different steerer tube shapes and sizes.
Folks this is some OUTSIDE the box thinking that only a master who has built and designed a boat load of these frames can do.

I absolutely doubt that this retro-fudge "incorporates" anything other than a round-shaped steerer tube. Is there even a single another shape that it "incorporates" besides round?

I, for one, would enjoy hearing Kelly himself selling his stuff here rather than his shills, can I get a witness?

Dekonick, well bargained for you, much better than offing it.

[SoCalSteve]

Ok, so can my Hors Cat be made into a sloping top tube bike ( 6 degrees please) with a 1 1/8" head tube?

I'd love to take my "classic" and modernize it. To me ( and that's all that counts as I would never sell it) it would make the bike much more valuable!

Can this be done?

Thanks!

Steve

[Smiley]

I absolutely doubt that this retro-fudge "incorporates" anything other than a round-shaped steerer tube. Is there even a single another shape that it "incorporates" besides round?

I, for one, would enjoy hearing Kelly himself selling his stuff here rather than his shills, can I get a witness?

Dekonick, well bargained for you, much better than offing it.


Brian,
Definition of a shill

shill/SHil/


Noun: An accomplice of a hawker, gambler, or swindler who acts as an enthusiastic customer to entice or encourage others: "I used to be a shill in a Reno gambling club"; "the agency is a shill for the nuclear power industry".

Verb: Act or work as such a person

I seriously don't think that I have mis-represented myself as you would define as such a term seems derogotory to me and Kelly. You only need to see my history here as a Seller of goods, A bicycle fitter and an agent for Serotta and Bedford.

The tubes are round and I doubt they will detract from the ride of Mikes Hors and in fact may enhance it with the beefed up head tube. As you know cutting any double butted tube like others in PA may do is not a wise decision since you cut on the butt area and weaken the tube. For most this is not something they dwell on but good builders don't do that so Bedford did it right by replacing the whole front end. Yes Kelly put lots of thought in this re-fit that as stated MIKE begged us to do. We are doing my wife's bike too. It made more cost effective sense even with the costs I can obtain a bike for. Seems like something folks that really want and have a attachment to their Ti bikes may want to do. This is what this site is about telling folks what is out there and what can be done.

[rugbysecondrow]

I absolutely doubt that this retro-fudge "incorporates" anything other than a round-shaped steerer tube. Is there even a single another shape that it "incorporates" besides round?

I, for one, would enjoy hearing Kelly himself selling his stuff here rather than his shills, can I get a witness?

Dekonick, well bargained for you, much better than offing it.


Not sure why there is a need for disparaging remarks, but it is unprofesional. Smiley is upfront about his work, both as a fitter/agent and his relationship with Kelly. You seem to challenge his integrity, which is unfair and inaccurate. He spent just as much time working with me on a non-Bedford project as he did on my Bedford project. He spent hours with my wife on her prior bike a year before a custom frame was even a thought for her. He is truly concerned about the customer and the product, regardless of who is providing that product.

Smiley is one of the good guys, painting him in any other light would just be a mistake.

[AngryScientist]

This is what this site is about telling folks what is out there and what can be done.

yes. maybe a retrofit like this is not for everyone, but it's good to know the options that are available out there, and to know there's a pro that will do these kinds of mods.

:beer:

[Fixed]

how about a chimay
cheers :beer:
we can all agree it is an awesome frame

[Ahneida Ride]

I diligently watched as this project progressed.
I gotta admit, this is not a trivial straight forward paint by numbers concept. Kelly struggled a bit. But being the consummate professional he is,
the completed frame is flawless.

But ultimately, the final verdict is in the hands of the owner.

(incidentally, Smiley recently sold, as a factory rep, a spanking new Ottrott
and that is what I like about Smiley, he is honest and only represents
the really good stuff. )

When Smiley did my fit, he made many comments and suggestions and
he backed em up with the reasons why.

[K Bedford]

First I must say I'm not a forum kind of guy, never have been, probably never will be......that's just me but I know a lot of you enjoy the forum a great deal and a lot of good info and stories get exchanged.
Sometimes though a post will show up that I feel I must address.
In the case of Mikes bike we we redesigned the fit of a frame that no longer fit him well and made it easier to travel with as Mike wanted..... simply put.
This can termed as possibly ruining a classic, although we did nothing to compromise the function of Dave's original ingenious DKS design or term it a retro-fudge. The head tube design referred to that I'm incorporating into some of my frames allows the use of a straight steerer or a tapered steerer in the same frame by simply changing the headset......I still haven't figured out how to accomidate those pesky triangular steerers.
Now, to address the subject that troubles me the most.
I can most certainly speak for myself and as a matter of fact I've had some level of personal contact with every customer of mine who has posted on this forum and all of my customers that have never posted here. If someone likes what we've done for them enough to post their new ride I'm flattered and grateful. I find it offensive that Smiley and anybody else who has talked up my frames would be termed "shills". Near 3 years ago after receiving a serious kick in the gut Smiley and a number of other dear friends, Aneihda Ride and Pete to name just a couple believed in me enough to help me through a very difficult time. Smiley is without a doubt one of the most passionate, skilled and honest people in this business and he really doesn't even need to do it.
He does it because he loves it and I'm sure because he takes pride in and gets great satisfaction from helping his friends and clients to enjoy their cycling that much more.
So, to infer that Smiley or anybody else are my shills is just, as I said before.....offensive.
Nuff said

[Germany_chris]

The modular headtube idea is appealing...

All in all I like the HC

Maybe a new HT for the legend?

[zap]

edit

Smiley is without a doubt one of the most passionate, skilled and honest people in this business and he really doesn't even need to do it.
He does it because he loves it and I'm sure because he takes pride in and gets great satisfaction from helping his friends and clients to enjoy their cycling that much more.


Spot on.

[Elefantino]

This might get me into trouble, but ...

The good guys are the good guys — and you know who you are. :beer:

Opinions are ... well, you know. :butt:

Meh.