View Full Version : Why Should Lance retire ?
Smiley
07-17-2005, 03:53 PM
I think the French organizers must change the format of their TOUR , cause Lance figured out a way to own it . I only wish that Lance would have shown me that he can rule more than just the Tour , Eddie Merckx raced to WIN every race he ever entered and when he rode the Tour he rode to win every stage he could . I realize that things have changed today , but why not just freaking dominate the racing season and not just the stinkin Tour .
I think the French should just go ahead and name the Race the Tour D'Amstrong and get it over with . I am happy to see Lance win it but geez there does not appear that anybody is even close to beating him , except himself . I sure hope 10 years from now its not found out that Lance was juicing up on anything we don't know about yet .
On a final note I hope Discovery features American riders on their Tour Team and keeps this thing an All American team event ( unless Ana Kornakova joins their womens team by chance ).
GoJavs
07-17-2005, 04:04 PM
According to the Australian web-site we all love to read, Lance mentioned next year the man might be Hincapie! That'd be good television. I see Discovery as an American sponsor trying their darnest to have an American leader for the Tour. Levi? Floyd? Tommy D.?
That being said, I've been a little too vocal about my feelings towards Armstrong. I believe one way that the tour could even the playing field would be to make riders qualify for it based on results on other ProTour racers.That would force all riders to be competitive elsewhere during the season. It would do wonders for races like Paris-Nice and the Classics...!! :)
Why should Lance retire? Dunno. Boredom, I guess. From what I've been watching for the last two weeks, he could win it for another two or three years.
Smiley
07-17-2005, 04:07 PM
I agree with you GoJavs , they should be forced to qualify like the PGA forces pro's to make the cut . Good for the sport of cycling to see the BIG names doing the classics .
Having said that, Lance should race till he is soundly beat by somebody , cause at this pace nobody can claim to even be able to hold his jock strap .
Fixed
07-17-2005, 04:23 PM
Don't bet on big George being Disco's G.C. guy.Even after his great ride today.Cheers
speaking of paris hilton:
maybe steinbrenner will give lance a hummer when he retires
Dr. Doofus
07-17-2005, 05:20 PM
change the format for the tour?
why?
how?
lance and co. figured out "the template" to win a three week stage race -- any three week stage race, however it was designed. he's won seven because he hasn't had any bad luck and hasn't hurt himself with mistakes, and because he, like eddy, bernard, and miguel, was the biggest, baddest cat of his generation.
making riders qualify for the tour based on early season results would be a formula for a horrible tour with worn-out riders...if you want the tour won from behind, a race of elimination based on who blows up first and worst each day, then you'll get that. if you want a tour won from the front with dominant mountain accelerations and time trials, you need riders who have peaked for the tour -- and the realities of modern training dictate that to do that, you need riders who have prepared all winter and spring for one three-week shot, with maybe 15-30 days of racing, and that's it.
for years, the world cross champion would be seen in the pro peloton during the warm parts of the year. then, that became an impossible thing...you can't train for the cross and the road season in the same 12 months and win anything anymore. within road cycling, increased wages, increased team investments in the riders, and increased budgets, all of which are good things (if you want the great old racing of the old days, return to paying domestiques 17,000 a year and stars 50-150,000, get rid of proper support for the riders, make them drive themselves to races, have them get their own masages if they want one, and then everyone will kill themselves in every race just to make ends meet and try to set something aside for retirement at 31 and the entry into the exciting career of bar owning or wrenching budget bikes at the shop you and the bank own...but do you want to shaft the athletes so you have "better entertainment?"), you have a world where the investment seeks a justifiable return in the form of wins. wins only come from specialization and the dedication of all the riders to one goal in one race.
modern racing isn't boring -- its the exhibition of the best talents coming through with the best results in the most refined and demanding level of competition (both physically and economically) the sport we love has ever seen.
GoJavs
07-17-2005, 05:34 PM
If your idea of fun are the last seven years, then I guess you are right. For me, the novelty wore off right around the 4th win. You remember that one, right? The 'big' challengers that year were Joseba Beloki, Santiago Botero and Oscar Sevilla?
I guess I'm not into dynasties. By 1996, I was ready to see someone else win other than Indurain too.
change the format for the tour?
why?
how?
lance and co. figured out "the template" to win a three week stage race -- any three week stage race, however it was designed. he's won seven because he hasn't had any bad luck and hasn't hurt himself with mistakes, and because he, like eddy, bernard, and miguel, was the biggest, baddest cat of his generation.
making riders qualify for the tour based on early season results would be a formula for a horrible tour with worn-out riders...if you want the tour won from behind, a race of elimination based on who blows up first and worst each day, then you'll get that. if you want a tour won from the front with dominant mountain accelerations and time trials, you need riders who have peaked for the tour -- and the realities of modern training dictate that to do that, you need riders who have prepared all winter and spring for one three-week shot, with maybe 15-30 days of racing, and that's it.
for years, the world cross champion would be seen in the pro peloton during the warm parts of the year. then, that became an impossible thing...you can't train for the cross and the road season in the same 12 months and win anything anymore. within road cycling, increased wages, increased team investments in the riders, and increased budgets, all of which are good things (if you want the great old racing of the old days, return to paying domestiques 17,000 a year and stars 50-150,000, get rid of proper support for the riders, make them drive themselves to races, have them get their own masages if they want one, and then everyone will kill themselves in every race just to make ends meet and try to set something aside for retirement at 31 and the entry into the exciting career of bar owning or wrenching budget bikes at the shop you and the bank own...but do you want to shaft the athletes so you have "better entertainment?"), you have a world where the investment seeks a justifiable return in the form of wins. wins only come from specialization and the dedication of all the riders to one goal in one race.
modern racing isn't boring -- its the exhibition of the best talents coming through with the best results in the most refined and demanding level of competition (both physically and economically) the sport we love has ever seen.
how 'bout we get rid of team radios
but
force 'em to ride clinchers
Dekonick
07-17-2005, 05:53 PM
It would be interesting to see radio's, HR monitors, etc gone from the tour. Just the rider and his bike - heck, make em carry their own spares - you flat you fix it (like the old days)
Betcha alot more would ride clinchers...
:)
Dr. Doofus
07-17-2005, 05:59 PM
what the doof would like to see:
no HRM
no powermeters
no radios
no TT bikes
train however you want, but the racin should be low-tech old school...biggest engine smartest brain wins
GoJavs
07-17-2005, 06:01 PM
BTW, Doc, there's a lot of room in between the doom that you described and what it would take for the tour to simply be more competitive. You don't need riders 'driving' to their own races and getting paid 30K/yr to have a level playing field.
But, what you should have is a rider having to ride 'competitively' in a number of races in order to earn the right to go to the Tour every year.
shaq-d
07-17-2005, 06:08 PM
regardless of radios, this is the best time trialist and climber in the world.
sd
cinelli
07-17-2005, 06:30 PM
If we take the formula that Sr. Javs proposes
and everyone races all year long to qualify,
what do you have? All of the top riders are
either below their peak or possibly hurt.
That is not the what we are watching today:
the greatest athletes performing at their best.
The one thing that changed the Tour is simply
MONEY. Back in the day, way before LeMond
ever donned a yellow jersey, riders rode all year
and the "usual suspects" were winning the Tour.....
(Fignon, Hinault, etc...) unless they were injured.
Enter LeMond.
Bigger budgets, more television coverage and America
suddenly got interested. Since LeMond, the
Tour is THE event in terms of popularity, prestige
and MONEY. Lance Armstrong figured this out
early on and is now rich AND famous. Lance could
win Paris-Roubaix twenty times and never get
the notoriety he has today.
Bottom line.....if you don't want the Tour to be
the the dominating force in modern cycling,
stop spending millions of dollars on the Tour
and spend the money on other races.
victoryfactory
07-17-2005, 06:34 PM
***RANT***RANT***WARNING***
Hey I don't worship Armstrong, I wouldn't want him marrying my sister,
and I really hope he is clean....but..
All this crap about how Lance has skewed the tour, how it's not
"like it used to be" and how riders should "qualify" for the tour
makes me laugh.
It's not Lance's fault that he is the best tour rider ever, Don't blame him
for not emulating 40 year old "traditional" tactics. All he's done is change
the sport forever. Tech, training, aerodynamics, tactics, plus unbeliveable
natural talent. Do you want him to drink, smoke and party every night after
each stage? Do you want him to not do each stage in training? Do you
want him to get fat every winter and have to Race himself into shape
every spring? Is that "old school" enough for you?
Get over it! You guys remind me of Yankee haters, just because they win.
It takes more to win than just talent, it takes money, team, direction,
and an unbelievable inner strength to win at any cost.
Is that what you don't like? The Lance, Inc stuff? sure that can get annoying
but don't confuse the issue please.
Boring? did you watch that stage today?
Vino attacking (what a maniac)
Basso-Lance-Jan
George Acting like an anchor until 500 m to go
(people who say he didn't "work" HA! nobody else was there all day.
He didn't hire someone else to pedal, jack he dragged his 175 lb body
over all those mountains and crossed the line FIRST!
Levi, Rasmussen and all the rest turning themseves inside-out
man, what a bore
VF, also somewhat of a bore, I'm told
bcm119
07-17-2005, 06:40 PM
BTW, Doc, there's a lot of room in between the doom that you described and what it would take for the tour to simply be more competitive. You don't need riders 'driving' to their own races and getting paid 30K/yr to have a level playing field.
But, what you should have is a rider having to ride 'competitively' in a number of races in order to earn the right to go to the Tour every year.
I think this post was tongue-in-cheek, but I'll play along...why does the playing field need to be "leveled"? Because one guy has dominated for 7 years, the whole race has to be changed around to give other guys a chance? Thats ridiculous. Most of Lance's main GC rivals have also trained all year to peak for this race. How would it make it more competitive to force them all to race all spring and arrive at the Tour in a more fatigued state?
Sports have legends/champions/whatever you call them; this has always been the case. If you're sick of seeing Lance winning...turn off your TV.
Dr. Doofus
07-17-2005, 06:45 PM
word to your gruppo bcm
victoryfactory
07-17-2005, 06:47 PM
BCM;
I wish you had posted a few minutes earlier, I could have saved a lot
of cyber-ink
To quote E-Richie....
"what BCM119 said"
VF
GoJavs
07-17-2005, 06:56 PM
Yep, that's what I did this weekend. I turned off the TV and I spent the weekend with my family.
Sorry if we don't agree. But, someone mentioned the Yankees right? Well, EXACTLY. That's the reason why salary caps were put into effect in baseball. To find a way to discourage, even if just a little, the disparity.
The best in cycling? Yes, for three weeks. Team Disco this year was head and shoulders above the rest. Give me a break! Giovanni Lombardi was on the CSC TDF team! Lombardi was washed up 5 years ago! Only Team Disco can afford to have half a dozen top-notch guys sit on a shelf all season to work for three weeks. Make Beltran, Azevedo and Rubiera earn their right to go to the Tour.
Look - I won't keep arguing the pro-Lance crowd. I'm 34-yrs old and I plan on living for a long time. Let's see what Lance's legacy is 30 years from now. For the time being, enjoy.
BY THE WAY - Rule changes to 'level' the playing field happen everywhere. Think Nascar, Formula One, Baseball, Basketball, Football, Hockey.
Name me one sport that doesn't constantly review its rules every year.
victoryfactory
07-17-2005, 07:10 PM
Name me one sport that doesn't constantly review its rules every year.
Good point, even the Tour has been accused of trying to Lance-proof their own
race by adjusting the stages... it didn't work
Then they tried to take away the ability of a dominant team to make too
much time in the TTT with the new scoring.
So they apparently also are concerned.
VF
***RANT***RANT***WARNING***
... George Acting like an anchor until 500 m to go
(people who say he didn't "work" HA! nobody else was there all day.
He didn't hire someone else to pedal, jack he dragged his 175 lb body
over all those mountains and crossed the line FIRST...
my comment was about work within the break.
the race unfolded in such a manner that george
just needed to sit in, thats racing. are you saying
he worked any where near the amount the others did?
sure he was the strongest at the end, the race
tactics allowed for that. if the others had pissed around
waiting for him to work the break would never of had a
chance. they allowed him in there, that was a compromise
to keep the break going. nothing happens if you dont give it a try.
victoryfactory
07-17-2005, 07:27 PM
CSB;
Your right, I may have got over excited.
Certainly, George was "allowed" to ride at the back of the break
for most of the day because of his team's race situation.
But not one of those guys had a big enough kick to drop him,
and plenty of other guys got dropped along the way.
By the time they realized what was happening, it was too late.
Generally, riders are not allowed to do that kind of stuff, if
George tries that again, it won't be accepted. But that's why it was so cool,
really a once in a career deal for George.
VF
I still think it's a super job for a "non climber"
VF
www.ilgop.org/content/img/f12360/hand_shake.jpg
csb
Fixed
07-17-2005, 07:58 PM
what the doof would like to see:
no HRM
no powermeters
no radios
no TT bikes
train however you want, but the racin should be low-tech old school...biggest engine smartest brain wins
I am with you Doc.Everyone one the same,Lugged steel bikes, wheels. etc.they still used team work in the old days.the directors yelled out of the car windows but the riders were on their on more than today.Hey maybe fixed gear bikes now that would hurt.I do agree with you though Doc. you are one smart guy. Cheers
Louis
07-17-2005, 08:36 PM
what the doof would like to see: no HRM, no powermeters, no radios, no TT bikes
train however you want, but the racin should be low-tech old school...biggest engine smartest brain wins
A buddy of mine at work thinks that 3 months before the tour you should also lock them all in the same 100% secure prison compound and feed them the same pasta and One-A-Day vitamins...
Look - I won't keep arguing the pro-Lance crowd. I'm 34-yrs old and I plan on living for a long time. Let's see what Lance's legacy is 30 years from now. For the time being, enjoy.
Name me one sport that doesn't constantly review its rules every year.
Unless there's a big change of heart, the guy's retiring in a couple of weeks. So, bracketing whatever uncertainty remains about this tour, don't we know what his legacy will be in 30 years? Very likely 7 Tours de France, one world championship road title, stages in prior tours, and the list of less major races (significant and less significant--the Dauphiné-Libérés, the Swiss Tour, Flèche Wallonne, etc.) already on the palmares. Maybe toss in an hour record, if he sets one. Add the cancer fundraising and related activities, if that's part of your picture (or not, if you think it's beside the point). That's the legacy.
Are you wondering whether the widespread social worship will remain as now? Of course it won't. Lots of sports fans have long memories and all sports have their history buffs, but fans of sporting action are, for the most part, fans of action --current action being the best, and recent action leaving a more vivid trail than old action. Andy Rod**** has more fans than Rod Laver does, even though Rod****--brief tour at the top of the computer or not--has never been the best tennis player in the world, whereas Laver remains the only man to win two grand slams (despite having been banned from what are now the open tourneys for most of his career). And celebrity/media frenzies are all about the now. 30 years after is not now. Kids in Detroit Pistons jerseys are very unlikely to be running around town collecting yellow wristbands in 2035. What of it?
Are you wondering whether he'll be forgotten or whether cycling history will treat him as a bit player? Surely not. Some of his present fans--in greater or fewer numbers depending on what happens in the intervening decades--will still argue passionately that he's the greatest cyclist ever. A non-trivial number of folks outside cycling will most likely still remember him, as he and/or his story (image or brand if you prefer) has touched quite a few. Most cycling fans will probably regard him as among the greats, even if they may downgrade him a bit from wherever they have him pegged now (#2? #4? #7?) because of some intervening star or two or three. It's not as if folks have forgotten Anquetil in the past 40 years (5 Tours de Fance--less than LA--but 8 Grand Tours, which is, of course, more than LA is likely to do according to current plans).
Are you wondering whether a doping smoking gun will be found? How? He's likely the most tested athlete in the history of sports. Either he's really clean or he's really careful (we know that already) and really lucky (probably that too). You think they're gonna find something LATER?
Rule changes? They've made some rule and route changes to curb LA's obvious advantages. Not enough apparently, but it's not as if anything goes in this regard. Fans get pissed when arbitrary sports rules start to seem too arbitrary (or vindictive).
For me, it's been a pretty cool spectacle. And I don't wear a bracelet, yellow or otherwise, and I don't have any posters on my walls. I just think it's been some seriously impressive racing.
GoJavs
07-17-2005, 09:26 PM
Thank you. :)
he'll be back. or he'll be the next democratic senator from texas.....either way, it's all good.
jerk
Kevan
07-17-2005, 10:30 PM
to watching the Tour and waiting for bad luck to possibly appear? I hope not. Certainly wouldn't be in the proper spirit, now would it?
I'll go for the slightly smaller successes and thrills...
Adda boy George!!!!!!!
93legendti
07-17-2005, 10:41 PM
Yep, that's what I did this weekend. I turned off the TV and I spent the weekend with my family.
Sorry if we don't agree. But, someone mentioned the Yankees right? Well, EXACTLY. That's the reason why salary caps were put into effect in baseball. To find a way to discourage, even if just a little, the disparity.
The best in cycling? Yes, for three weeks. Team Disco this year was head and shoulders above the rest. Give me a break! Giovanni Lombardi was on the CSC TDF team! Lombardi was washed up 5 years ago! Only Team Disco can afford to have half a dozen top-notch guys sit on a shelf all season to work for three weeks. Make Beltran, Azevedo and Rubiera earn their right to go to the Tour.
Look - I won't keep arguing the pro-Lance crowd. I'm 34-yrs old and I plan on living for a long time. Let's see what Lance's legacy is 30 years from now. For the time being, enjoy.
BY THE WAY - Rule changes to 'level' the playing field happen everywhere. Think Nascar, Formula One, Baseball, Basketball, Football, Hockey.
Name me one sport that doesn't constantly review its rules every year.
Hmm, 3 weeks?
What about GH's win in Kurne Brussels Kurne in March (or was it Feburary?),
Tom D's victory in the Tour of Georgia in April,
Salvodelli's Giro victory in May/June,
Popovych victory in the Tour of Cataluynia in June,
and
GH's 2 stages in the Dauphine in June?
RichMc
07-18-2005, 01:58 AM
What are we going to do next year when we won't have Lance to kick around? :butt:
GoJavs
07-18-2005, 05:45 AM
Hmm, 3 weeks?
What about GH's win in Kurne Brussels Kurne in March (or was it Feburary?),
Tom D's victory in the Tour of Georgia in April,
Salvodelli's Giro victory in May/June,
Popovych victory in the Tour of Cataluynia in June,
and
GH's 2 stages in the Dauphine in June?
-----
Sure, that's a nice collection of wins, but does that make them the best team of the year leading up to the Tour? Hardly....I think Team CSC, Quick-Step (Boonen!) and Liquigas (DiLuca) would have something to say about that at the very least...Heck, even Euskatel had a great pre-Tour season. They won the Tour of Switzerland AND Dauphine-Libere..!
Meanwhile, again, nothing from the Spanish Armada at all. What did Azevedo, Beltran and Rubiera do leading up to the tour? These were three successful riders in their own right (pre-Lance) who were basically bought and put away to be taken out for three weeks a year... ;)
93legendti
07-18-2005, 08:47 AM
-----
Sure, that's a nice collection of wins, but does that make them the best team of the year leading up to the Tour? Hardly....I think Team CSC, Quick-Step (Boonen!) and Liquigas (DiLuca) would have something to say about that at the very least...Heck, even Euskatel had a great pre-Tour season. They won the Tour of Switzerland AND Dauphine-Libere..!
Meanwhile, again, nothing from the Spanish Armada at all. What did Azevedo, Beltran and Rubiera do leading up to the tour? These were three successful riders in their own right (pre-Lance) who were basically bought and put away to be taken out for three weeks a year... ;)
Wait 'till after the Vuelta...
darylb
07-18-2005, 09:29 AM
I agree with you GoJavs , they should be forced to qualify like the PGA forces pro's to make the cut . Good for the sport of cycling to see the BIG names doing the classics .
The previous winners always get automatic exemptions and I believe for multiple years for majors. Even the PGA makes sure to have the big names in the field every week. Some may even receive a check just to show up.
Spinsistah
07-18-2005, 09:37 AM
I'm very happy for George's win, he's been working for Lance in every TDF he has been in, and finally he wins a stage. He didn't know he was riding for a win, from what I gather, it was a fluke he was in the breakaway at all, and once he got there, he was to be support for Lance should he have reached that point. Lance and Basso never caught up, so George had a chance to win the stage.
I'm hoping that not only George, but Floyd, Bobby, Levi and the other US riders do well. So what if they aren't on Discovery, they represent our country in this endeavor.
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