Ben Serotta in NYT (quoted about travel bikes)

[fiamme red]

http://travel.nytimes.com/2011/09/17/travel/how-to-travel-with-a-bike.html?src=recg

Ben Serotta, the founder of Serotta, an upstate New York company formed in 1972 that also specializes in made-to-order, high-performance bikes, believes, unlike Co-Motion, that breakaway bikes should be specially made to handle the coupler system to prevent metal fatigue. As a result, Mr. Serotta insists that the only right way to build a ‘coupler’ bike is by engineering the frame specifically for that purpose. Only two of its premium made-to-order bicycles — the Legend SE and the Classique T1 — are offered with the coupler option. Both are built from titanium because it is not just rugged and durable, but also lightweight. “Best of all,” Mr. Moore said, “titanium doesn’t rust or corrode, so rather than worrying about scratching the finish of your bicycle, you can disassemble, pack, reassemble and get on your merry way down the road.”

[fogrider]

that they would go to co motion about the breakaway system and not ritchey.

[palincss]

Co-Motion uses the S&S coupler system. Not many makers are using Ritchey's system.

[oldpotatoe]

http://travel.nytimes.com/2011/09/17/travel/how-to-travel-with-a-bike.html?src=recg

Ben Serotta, the founder of Serotta, an upstate New York company formed in 1972 that also specializes in made-to-order, high-performance bikes, believes, unlike Co-Motion, that breakaway bikes should be specially made to handle the coupler system to prevent metal fatigue. As a result, Mr. Serotta insists that the only right way to build a ‘coupler’ bike is by engineering the frame specifically for that purpose. Only two of its premium made-to-order bicycles — the Legend SE and the Classique T1 — are offered with the coupler option. Both are built from titanium because it is not just rugged and durable, but also lightweight. “Best of all,” Mr. Moore said, “titanium doesn’t rust or corrode, so rather than worrying about scratching the finish of your bicycle, you can disassemble, pack, reassemble and get on your merry way down the road.”


Copy to Bilenky...I doubt he, others, agrees.

Mr. Wages?

I should mention that neither Moots or Richard Schwinn at Waterford recommend retro fits of S&S to an existing frame and they don't do it.

Is Mr Serotta's point about retro fits or which frames he recommends for S&S from the get-go?

[Nags&Ducs]

Is Ben S recommending only Ti for S&S? Or is there more implied? Do Serotta coupled bikes have butted or "beefed up" ends where the couplers are welded? Reading into that, is it safe to assume that Ben wouldn't recommend a retro fit of couplers to any frame that was not specifically spec'ed for it from the start? What do you all think on the subject. If it really is a concern, I will have to reconsider my plans to retrofit couplers to my wife's Titus Ti FCR road frame.

[gone]

Is Ben S recommending only Ti for S&S? Or is there more implied? Do Serotta coupled bikes have butted or "beefed up" ends where the couplers are welded? Reading into that, is it safe to assume that Ben wouldn't recommend a retro fit of couplers to any frame that was not specifically spec'ed for it from the start? What do you all think on the subject. If it really is a concern, I will have to reconsider my plans to retrofit couplers to my wife's Titus Ti FCR road frame.
Neither Ben Serotta nor Dave Kirk, both respected framebuilders, recommend retrofitting couplers to an existing bike.

Having said that, I have a Serotta CII that I've had couplers retrofitted on by Bilenky. It's got numerous trips to Europe on it and probably 15k miles plus since the retrofit and rides as well as it did pre-coupler with no signs of fatigue.

Am I riding for a fall? Possibly. But there are lots of retrofitted coupler bikes out there and the only problems I've ever heard is when someone didn't tighten the couplers enough.

[Sheldon4209]

The article misquoted Co-Motion as they do not recommend retrofitting frames and they also use butted tubing for the couplers. The article seems to have things confused.

[Nags&Ducs]

The article misquoted Co-Motion as they do not recommend retrofitting frames and they also use butted tubing for the couplers. The article seems to have things confused.

I agree. The article is all over the place and poorly written.

Regarding butted tubes at the coupler junction, what about the companies that use only straight gage, like Moots? Or what if someone wanted a straight gage model such as a Seven Axiom? Would Seven and Moots spec butted tubesets then?

I think having beefed up ends at the coupler welds definitely makes sense and would give an added sense of security. I hope, but seriously doubt my coupled Dean El Diente SL has them even though it was designed with couplers from the start.

[echappist]

Is Ben S recommending only Ti for S&S? Or is there more implied? Do Serotta coupled bikes have butted or "beefed up" ends where the couplers are welded? Reading into that, is it safe to assume that Ben wouldn't recommend a retro fit of couplers to any frame that was not specifically spec'ed for it from the start? What do you all think on the subject. If it really is a concern, I will have to reconsider my plans to retrofit couplers to my wife's Titus Ti FCR road frame.
i had the same question when ordering my Lynskey Cooper. Lynskey offers the Backroad model, which is a straight-gauge frameset with couplers. They do the process in house. I asked them if the similar treatment could be applied to the Cooper, which has diamond-shaped tubes. Their answer was no.

However, Bilenky will happily do it for you, and i've seen frames with butted tubes and even the helical tubes with couplers.

[palincss]

However, Bilenky will happily do it for you, and i've seen frames with butted tubes and even the helical tubes with couplers.

Bilenky has been retrofitting S&S Couplers since shortly after they were invented. I'm sure if this practice was unsound, we'd have heard about all the failures by now.

[echappist]

Bilenky has been retrofitting S&S Couplers since shortly after they were invented. I'm sure if this practice was unsound, we'd have heard about all the failures by now.
I actually contacted Steve Smilanick regarding my options, and he enthusiastically recommended Bilenky.

edit: got the last name of Steve Smilanick wrong

[DRZRM]

Neither Ben Serotta nor Dave Kirk, both respected framebuilders, recommend retrofitting couplers to an existing frame.

I beg to differ, unless you know something about Dave's plans for his wife while riding in the Alps.

Kirk blog on retrofitting couplers to his wife's Kirk frame. (http://http://www.kirkframeworks.com/blog/2011/08/24/travel-bikes-2/)

I think Ben's reservations about retrofitting butted ti make sense, avoiding welding to a thinest part of a tapered tube makes sense, but one of the oldest Bilenky retrofits was on a Legend and it's held up to years (decade + I think) of heavy use. Any straight gauge ti tube set should be fine for a retrofit, and most non-ultra light steel tubing seems fine for retrofit. I'd actually defer to the guys at Bilenky, as they have so much experience with the retrofit.

[tiretrax]

However, Bilenky will happily do it for you, and i've seen frames with butted tubes and even the helical tubes with couplers.
That's interesting because they told me a few years ago that they couldn't do a shaped tube - in that case, it was an ovalized Litespeed.

[David Kirk]

I beg to differ, unless you know something about Dave's plans for his wife while riding in the Alps.

Kirk blog on retrofitting couplers to his wife's Kirk frame. (http://http://www.kirkframeworks.com/blog/2011/08/24/travel-bikes-2/)

I think Ben's reservations about retrofitting butted ti make sense, avoiding welding to a thinest part of a tapered tube makes sense, but one of the oldest Bilenky retrofits was on a Legend and it's held up to years (decade + I think) of heavy use. Any straight gauge ti tube set should be fine for a retrofit, and most non-ultra light steel tubing seems fine for retrofit. I'd actually defer to the guys at Bilenky, as they have so much experience with the retrofit.

Me thinks you are both right.

I normally do not recommend retrofitting couplers because it's impossible to control where the tube butt is relative to the coupler.

And at the same time the bike I cut up for Karin and retrofitted couplers to was built with old school diameters (1" tip tube and 1 1/8" down tube) and to keep the frame stiff enough I used tubes with very long butts. So when i cut into the frame i knew I'd be getting the thick part of the tube. Most of the frames I build would have too short a butt to pull this off.

Karin called today from the Alps after climbing all day - pretty happy girl with her travel bike.

dave

[CaptStash]

All very interesting. I'm glad my ti bike was built with straight gauge tubing. The coupled bike rides beautifully with no perceived issues. I suppose time will tell. Bilenky did the work. They were great to deal with.

CaptStash....

[Satellite]

Bilenky did the retro fit on my VaMoots (straight gauge). Moots won't do it becuase they don't want the back log to hold up production on new frames.

My first VaMoots was an SL with double-butted tubing. Moots highly recommended NOT adding couplers. I took their advice and bought one of their demo VaMoots, sent it to Bilenky and have been happy as a clam since. I can't tell a bit of difference between the ride of either bike. Bilenky's only down fall is the welds look like a kinder gardener did them with a crayon. But it is hard to duplicate a Moots weld and I am being overly critical. The weld hasn't failed so I guess it is only a aesthetics thing.

The other thing I did with mine was send it to Spectrum Powder works and get the decals Titanium Etched. The bike does take some abuse and Moots decals are weak.

Anyways go for it have your ride coupled, it is worth every penny in the long run. I have contacted Bilenky to couple one of my SilkTi's it is a double butted frame set Bilenky says they can do it and have done them in the past. Plus Bilenky welds look just about the same as the IBIS welds.


Best regards,

Satellite

[Dekonick]

Is Ben S recommending only Ti for S&S? Or is there more implied? Do Serotta coupled bikes have butted or "beefed up" ends where the couplers are welded? Reading into that, is it safe to assume that Ben wouldn't recommend a retro fit of couplers to any frame that was not specifically spec'ed for it from the start? What do you all think on the subject. If it really is a concern, I will have to reconsider my plans to retrofit couplers to my wife's Titus Ti FCR road frame.

I know that Kelly Bedford just installed S&S couplers in my Hors Categorie. It was much more involved than just chop and fit couplers...

Just to give an idea of what it involved:

He replaced the top tube and down tube with non butted tubes. He added a 'shim' to beef up the seat post area. He also changed the head tube to 1 1/4 with a removable shim so it is 1 1/8 (with the ability to go to 1 1/4 in the future...)

All in all - like Ben stated -KB engineered the frame to withstand the stress of S&S couplers. I feel much better knowing how it was done rather than just a cut 'n chop.

Probably added a few grams not counting the S&S but it is purpose made. :banana:

[lurpy]

Bilenky did the retro fit on my VaMoots (straight gauge).

The other thing I did with mine was send it to Spectrum Powder works and get the decals Titanium Etched.

I had Bilenky couple my Classique Ti last off season. The customer service side of the transaction was a little off (communication and timing), but I'm completely happy with the actual result. I haven't traveled with the bike yet, but I haven't noticed any negatives in a few thousand post surgery miles.

I also intend to send the frame to spectrum fro etching this winter (currently the frame is "nude"). Could I ask what Spectrum charged for this? I'm thinking "SEROTTA" on the down tube and a chevron "S" on the seat tube.

- Lurpy

[Satellite]

I had Bilenky couple my Classique Ti last off season. The customer service side of the transaction was a little off (communication and timing), but I'm completely happy with the actual result. I haven't traveled with the bike yet, but I haven't noticed any negatives in a few thousand post surgery miles.

I also intend to send the frame to spectrum fro etching this winter (currently the frame is "nude"). Could I ask what Spectrum charged for this? I'm thinking "SEROTTA" on the down tube and a chevron "S" on the seat tube.

- Lurpy

Lurpy,

The total cost was $450.00 that included all of Moots Decals even the Chain Stays with Mr. Moots (Hand built in the Rockies) plus some extra writing on the top tub (my screen name and real name). I also had the Moots Stem and Seatpost etched. The "MOOTS" on the downtube and seattube have double etching to make them pop. Worth the cost, the pictures don't do it justice.

I did skimp on two things when I had my VaMoots Coupled, I regret it now. I didn't buy the tube covers, and the TSA net. I tried to be cheap and make my own tube covers, didn't work at all, and I think Bilenky custom cuts the tube covers. I use twine to tie the lower wheel to the upper wheel; it is a cleaver way to keep things nice and neat when the gorillas are done searching. It would save a lot of time and aggravation to use the TSA Net.

I did spend a lot of money but it is worth it when I have huge smile on my face riding my own bike in cool places. This summer one day I rode my bike in Sunnyvale, CA (Page Mill Road, wow). The next day I was riding along Lake Onterio in New York. Coast to coast with little to no hastle and I live in Colorado.

Satellite