Question about stage 16

[e-RICHIE]

did anyone see lance attack after the top of the
final climb - just as jan was trying to get a mussette
and collect its contents? he had to jetison the bag
and attempt to chase on the descent.
that's how it looked on my monitor.
e-RICHIE©™®

[erty65]

first climb?

[e-RICHIE]

no.
the hc climb about 10k from the finish, or whatever.
the climb before the descent to the last climb.

[93legendti]

A feed zone at the top of a climb that close to the finish? Not likely. Maybe they were getting newspapers to put under their jerseys. I wouldn't blame any rider for wanting to be ahead of Jan on a descent.
In fact, the feed zone was earlier in the race:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2005//tour05/?id=stages/tour0514

[Louis]

ER, you are courting danger and risking the wrath of the Armstrong Army…

Or are they the Armstrong Apologists?

[Ray]

The leader grabbed a musette at the top of the next to last climb and was descending with it for a short while. I didn't notice any of the next group take one, but I don't doubt it.

-Ray

[e-RICHIE]

ER, you are courting danger and risking the wrath of the Armstrong Army…

Or are they the Armstrong Apologists?


i wasn't a fan when he was on the national team.
why should i care now?!

[e-RICHIE]

The leader grabbed a musette at the top of the next to last climb and was descending with it for a short while. I didn't notice any of the next group take one, but I don't doubt it.

-Ray


jan took one. and then lance attacked clear as day.
maybe it was a gift! bananas.

[jeffg]

did anyone see lance attack after the top of the
final climb - just as jan was trying to get a mussette
and collect its contents? he had to jetison the bag
and attempt to chase on the descent.
that's how it looked on my monitor.
e-RICHIE©™®

This was a mountain top finish, so there was no chasing on a descent on the final climb. On the final climb Lance upped the pace in the last km or so and dropped both Jan and Basso to the line but the gaps were small. Just cause you "aint buying it" does not mean you need to attack him for no real good reason. Lance was the strongest, Jan had two teammates and still lost, get over it ...

[e-RICHIE]

This was a mountain top finish, so there was no chasing on a descent on the final climb. On the final climb Lance upped the pace in the last km or so and dropped both Jan and Basso to the line but the gaps were small.


doh.
read my follow-ups; not the finish line ascent,
but the hc climb before the descent...
it was about 10k out.

[jeffg]

doh.
read my follow-ups; not the finish line ascent,
but the hc climb before the descent...
it was about 10k out.

doh! I still say you have it out for LA. I saw no such matter. BTW, I got into cycling rooting for Jan, so I am pained (especially here in Germany) to see him falter year after year. I would love to see Jan win, but Lance is just better. Game over ...

[e-RICHIE]

doh! I still say you have it out for LA. I saw no such matter. BTW, I got into cycling rooting for Jan, so I am pained (especially here in Germany) to see him falter year after year. I would love to see Jan win, but Lance is just better. Game over ...

the tv feed here showed lance attack on the left side
(of the screen) while jan was "still trying" to put a
mussette around his shoulders.
and btw, why would i "have it out" for la?!
i watch sports for entertainment; i know that these
guys are different in person than their on field
personnas suggest.

[William]

...Of course, you don’t tell Godzilla how to die like a monster, you just kick back and watch it kill and demolish the field of cyclists at this year’s Tour.

Painfull to watch???

It is what it is. For better or worse, sportsman like or not, the man is dominating this tour so far. If it happened as you describe, then it may be un-sportsman like....but apparently not illegal and in the end inconsequential in Jan making up any time on LA.

William

[Climb01742]

how 'bout jan and kloden attacking a teammate (vino) attempting a break? guessing dinnertable tonight at t-moble won't be laugh filled.

[e-RICHIE]

how 'bout jan and kloden attacking a teammate (vino) attempting a break? guessing dinnertable tonight at t-moble won't be laugh filled.


they didn't attack vino nor were they chasing him.
before all that, vino had just dropped back and brought
bottles BACK from the car for jan and klodie. THEY were
the leaders for tmo. it's all on the live feed from cyclingnews.com
i.e., vino wasn't on the attack at that point, despite what
the tv showed and what ligget said.

[Tom]

What's wrong about attacking if a guy's going after food? In a foot race if I'm not thirsty I run past the water stops. If I don't need to eat in a bike race, why should I slow down? If my rival buggers a shift am I supposed to soft pedal until he finds the gear he wants? Geez. I think if you have a guy so crosseyed he can't get the bag over his shoulder, keep going.

[csb]

my original posting should have been on the
'gift thread'

[Ginger]

I'm sure there are official rules about feed zones that I don't know but this is supposed to be a race for money not a social group ride....right?

[jerk]

the maillot jaune can do whatever the maillot jaune wants especially this maiilot jaune...including attacking a rider taking a feed. wouldn't happen if the roles were reversed though.

jerk

[Archibald]

did anyone see lance attack after the top of the
final climb - just as jan was trying to get a mussette
and collect its contents? he had to jetison the bag
and attempt to chase on the descent.
that's how it looked on my monitor.
e-RICHIE©™®
He turned me into a newt!

[e-RICHIE]

What's wrong about attacking if a guy's going after food? In a foot race if I'm not thirsty I run past the water stops. If I don't need to eat in a bike race, why should I slow down? If my rival buggers a shift am I supposed to soft pedal until he finds the gear he wants? Geez. I think if you have a guy so crosseyed he can't get the bag over his shoulder, keep going.


drift.
would you suggest it's okay to attack when
a rival has misfortune, as in a crash or some
such similar situation?
without getting too moralistic, there are some
things that are not done if, for no other reason,
than for the fact that it's not sporting. attacking
a break companion whilst he's getting a feed bag
is off limits for me.

[93legendti]

The stage details do not show a feed zone where e-Ritchie says the dastardly act happened.


http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2005//tour05/?id=stages/tour0514

So if it wasn't a feed zone, who cares? I'm going to re-watch the stage see if I can see what e-Ritchie is so upset about.

[e-RICHIE]

before i sign off and get a life, i still seek an answer to
my original post: did anyone see the morning feed and
the incident i axed about?
e-RICHIE©™®

[Archibald]

before i sign off and get a life, i still seek an answer to
my original post: did anyone see the morning feed and
the incident i axed about?
e-RICHIE©™®
He turned me into a newt!

[e-RICHIE]

The stage details do not show a feed zone where e-Ritchie says the dastardly act happened.


http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2005//tour05/?id=stages/tour0514

So if it wasn't a feed zone, who cares? I'm going to re-watch the stage see if I can see what e-Ritchie is so upset about.


it wasn't a feed zone and i didn't suggest it was.
it was the top of the penultimate climb. some folks
normally would reach for a newspaper; in this
incident, jan grabbed a mussette.

i'm not upset, i just asked if anyone saw what i saw.

[Archibald]

it wasn't a feed zone and i didn't suggest it was.
it was the top of the penultimate climb. some folks
normally would reach for a newspaper; in this
incident, jan grabbed a mussette.

i'm not upset, i just asked if anyone saw what i saw.
A newt? Oh...well, I got better! Burn him anyway!!!

To be serious for a moment, your implication at the beginning was that Lance did something unsporting by attacking Jan in a feed zone. It is now not a feed zone and it might be important to know if Jan was in front of Lance or behind him when this alleged misdeed was done. If Jan took the mussette after Lance went through, is Lance supposed to keep an eye on what Jan is doing behind him? Who went through the zone first, Lance, Jan or someone else? Didn't Ivan come over the top last?

[93legendti]

before i sign off and get a life, i still seek an answer to
my original post: did anyone see the morning feed and
the incident i axence here ed about?
e-RICHIE©™®

I just watched the tape. At the top of the 2nd to last climb, before the last descent, Levi L. , NOT Jan, took a bag. Levi was BEHIND Lance at the time. Lance got to the front only becasue Floyd, the 2nd in line, stopped pedalling.Then Lance pedalled as f he wanted to descend in the group, rather than trying to drop anyone. Sorry...

[Lincoln]

Given that 1) LA has stopped to wait for Jan after Jan went off the road in other tours (a sign of professional courtesy and respect) and 2) LA is smart enough to know that he isn't going to get away on a downhill, I don't think he was trying to jump him. My guess is that you misinterpreted what you saw just as Sherwin and Co. did regarding alleged Telekom cannibalism at the beginning of the final climb.

I don't think Kloden and Jan did anything wrong on the last climb but it sure looked to me like they helped pull LA up towards Vino when they were first blowing the pack apart on the penultimate climb.

[csb]

richard,

yes, i noticed. it appeared to me that lance
very much wanted to get ahead. attack? um,
i'll have to pay more attention tonite.
but he clearly made an effort.

[93legendti]

it wasn't a feed zone and i didn't suggest it was.
it was the top of the penultimate climb. some folks
normally would reach for a newspaper; in this
incident, jan grabbed a mussette.

i'm not upset, i just asked if anyone saw what i saw.

In that case, I say no. I did not see what you saw. Sorry I misinterpreted your interest.

[slowgoing]

e-Richie - I saw it your way. I saw the leaders go by and take some food at the apex so I was expecting the chase group to do so as well. Instead, Lance headed over the top and straight down. I didn't look at it so much as attacking as not giving anything back to the the lead group. It's true, Ulrich picked up some food and had to throw it away just to stay with the chase group. Lance picked up food from the Discovery car as he was descending, something I didn't see with the other riders - didn't even see any support cars for them.

[e-RICHIE]

e-Richie - I saw it your way. I saw the leaders go by and take some food at the apex so I was expecting the chase group to do so as well. Instead, Lance headed over the top and straight down. I didn't look at it so much as attacking as not giving anything back to the the lead group. It's true, Ulrich picked up some food and had to throw it away just to stay with the chase group. Lance picked up food from the Discovery car as he was descending, something I didn't see with the other riders - didn't even see any support cars for them.


alas.
an ally.
i can go party tonight and not worry about my self-esteem!
thanks for all the replies, especially the ones from gingrich.
e-RICHIE©™®

[bironi]

e-Richie,

What I saw was as follows: Jan sat up to zip his jersey for the descent, Levi was right behind him discarding his bag so that he could zip up. Lance and Floyd just rolled along. It may have looked to you that Levi's garbage was coming from Jan, but it was from behind him. I noticed that Jan had nothing to say about this supposed incident in his diary entry on VeloNews today. He was pretty happy overall with his performance, and congratulated Lance for defending the jersey well today.

[max_powers]

and the commentators said it might be an infraction since the others' cars were not there. What about That?!? more unfair advantage??

[e-RICHIE]

thanks, byron-issimo!
without the benefit of instant replay, you have
answered my question. time to imbibe. why?
because imbibe, jesus am da' hero...*
e-RICHIE©™®


* apologies to "our gang" devotees.

[erty65]

and the commentators said it might be an infraction since the others' cars were not there. What about That?!? more unfair advantage??

vino got bottles too! and it was hot!

[Dekonick]

how 'bout jan and kloden attacking a teammate (vino) attempting a break? guessing dinnertable tonight at t-moble won't be laugh filled.


No kidding!

[Tom]

drift.
would you suggest it's okay to attack when
a rival has misfortune, as in a crash or some
such similar situation?
without getting too moralistic, there are some
things that are not done if, for no other reason,
than for the fact that it's not sporting. attacking
a break companion whilst he's getting a feed bag
is off limits for me.

To your question, no.

To your comment, I am not sure. If by 'attacking' I take it as what I understand - a rapid acceleration designed to put the guy in trouble - I am not sure. I can see the not sporting argument, and I don't race and I believe you do so maybe I should defer that point. But on the other hand, if it means you gotta wait for the guy I don't know that just keeping going is so unsporting. If I'm in the back there and screwing around with a newspaper or a bag or something and I look up and they're gone, well that's just my tough luck in my view.

[97CSI]

ER, you are courting danger and risking the wrath of the Armstrong Army…Or are they the Armstrong Apologists?What, pray tell, does anyone who supports LA have to apologize for?

and the commentators said it might be an infraction since the others' cars were not there. What about That?!? more unfair advantage??It is an infraction to get water within a certain distance of the top (I don't recall that distance: 5k?) and could be a 10sec penalty, should the refs decide to do so. But, as was stated. Very hot and LA was not the only one doing so. No harm, no foul. But, it does make one wonder why Disco was the only team car with the group.

[RichMc]

So..................................what? They are all big boys. They are in the penultimate cycling race in the world. If there is any wrong doing let the officials worry about it. This is sport, yes, but it's also competition. Sheeesh.

[e-RICHIE]

snipped:
They are in the penultimate cycling race in the world.


huh?

[Dr. Doofus]

snipped:



huh?

the putney cross is number 1

lets see these guys show up for that one

[97CSI]

Cross is for panzies. We're talking about Stage 16 of the TdF (the penultimate bike race in the world).

[coylifut]

snipped:



huh?

I read that as, the tour is the second to the last cycling race in the world. Can you clue us in to what will be the last? I want to make sure to see it for the memories an all. I think Mac has been drinking Primo out of a can on the beach all day :beer:

[dave thompson]

I think Mac has been drinking Primo out of a can on the beach all day :beer:
Primo?! Ugh. Oh the humanity!

[slowgoing]

Cross is for panzies.

I hope you never want to get a nice lugged steel frame from Connecticut. You might have to wait forever, plus three years.

p.s. - I think you meant pansies with an "s," although you actually get positive macho points for not knowing how to spell flower names correctly.

[sam235813]

LA's been isolated (no team left) by a flurry of attacks, which don't seem to be ending. One (or more) of those guys wants to recharge so he can probably keep doing the same thing. If you where in LAs position, would you offer that allowance? (If your answer is yes, then your answer is yes.)

--sam

[sfscott]

as Horner did is more "unsporting" than trying to win the race.

If Jan wants courtesy, let him haul is arse up over the hills and win once in a while.

Team or no team, heat or no heat, mountains, flats whatever, Lance is flat out better conditioned, prepared and mentally tough.

game over.

[RichMc]

I read that as, the tour is the second to the last cycling race in the world. Can you clue us in to what will be the last? I want to make sure to see it for the memories an all. I think Mac has been drinking Primo out of a can on the beach all day :beer:


Thank you gentlemen for pointing out my gross misuse of the English language. I stand humbly corrected. I have a red face and it's not from the sun. It's also fair enough to be insulted with the Primo can slam. However I take umbrage at that remark. I'm drinking Guinness from a can right now. Goes down great after a hard, hot ride. :beer:

[dave thompson]

Primo and Okolehao: food of the gods!

[97CSI]

I hope you never want to get a nice lugged steel frame from Connecticut. You might have to wait forever, plus three years. p.s. - I think you meant pansies with an "s," although you actually get positive macho points for not knowing how to spell flower names correctly.Whatshisname from CT needs his nose tweaked occasionally just like the rest of us. And, my spelling errors are generally on purpose. Besides...I didn't want to say candy-asses in public. :) All forms of bicycling are good. Even cross and BMX. After all, who can argue with the IOC? :p

[William]

Primo and Okolehao: food of the gods!

Boil brautwurst in Fosters or Guinnes, then cook on the grill.....Oh baby! :banana:

William

[Tom]

I think it was Basso, maybe, that flatted and the peloton slowed to let him get back in it... though they did say that if Armstrong was worried about the people up the road they wouldn't have done that. Whatever, but that explodes my argument that attacking is definitely bad but just holding pace isn't. I'm going to have to take up some other sport if honor, dignity and sportsmanship are going to play a part in this.

[dave thompson]

Boil brautwurst in Fosters or Guinnes, then cook on the grill.....Oh baby! :banana:

William
My comment about Primo and Okolehao were entirely tongue-in-cheek. IMO they are two of the worst beverages on the face of the earth. Okolehao being a liquor made from the Ti plant is less bad than Primo, a beer I believe made in the men's room at Waikiki. At least if you drink enough Okolehao you're numb while puking your guts out. With Primo you can still feel everything while puking.

[coylifut]

the Hams of Hawaii. For some reason, it didn't taste so bad in high school

[JohnS]

did anyone see lance attack after the top of the
final climb - just as jan was trying to get a mussette
and collect its contents? he had to jetison the bag
and attempt to chase on the descent.
that's how it looked on my monitor.
e-RICHIE©™®
Wasn't this Stage 14, or is being clairvoyant another one of e-Richie's talents? :)

[e-RICHIE]

Wasn't this Stage 14, or is being clairvoyant another one of e-Richie's talents? :)



it was saturday's stage; see my original post date.
i guess i meant the stage on the 16th.
e-RICHIE©™®

[dirtdigger88]

Ive been thinking all along e-richie was predicting the future- :crap:

Thanks dude

Jason

[dave thompson]

the Hams of Hawaii. For some reason, it didn't taste so bad in high school
NOTHING alcoholic tastes bad in high school. Or college for that matter

[Fixed]

If e-RICHIE said that's what happened that is good enough for me, this guy has forgotten more about racing than I'll ever know. Cheers

[dirtdigger88]

If e-RICHIE say that's what happened that good enough for me this guy forgotten more about racing than i'll ever know.

ya know that was kinda what I thought too

I just figured he was having a senior moment

Jason

[RichMc]

the Hams of Hawaii. For some reason, it didn't taste so bad in high school

If you were drinking anything brewed during the late 60's early 70's when Primo was in Pearl City then it was only a half bad beer. The later iterations were worse, if that's possible. I think Dave T's recollections are pretty accurate. It's not the kind of thing you forget. Been there, done that. And I'm not proud of it.

[Ray]

Going over the next to last climb yesterday, I very specifically saw Levi take a bag but nobody else among the leading groups did. The day before, I clearly saw Tochnig (sp?) with a bag but missed what happened with Jan / Levi. But it seems that Gerolsteiner has a habit of putting someone in that position with musette bags and I haven't seen any other teams doing that. So this seems to lend credence to the observation that it was Levi who had a bag (and tossed it) - not Jan.

-Ray

[William]

My comment about Primo and Okolehao were entirely tongue-in-cheek. IMO they are two of the worst beverages on the face of the earth. Okolehao being a liquor made from the Ti plant is less bad than Primo, a beer I believe made in the men's room at Waikiki. A least if you drink enough Okolehao you're numb while puking your guts out. With Primo you can still feel everything while puking.

I know, you just made me think about cooking up the Brats on the grill and just blurted (well, pecked) it out.

In HS, Primo was considered OK. Sure beats "near" beer. But then again, we'd take what ever we could get our hands on. Any of you Nor Easters remember Heffenreffer (the GREEN DEATH)?? That very potent swill that came out of the bowels of the now defunct Narragansett brewery?? Cheap with a knock out punch. I always figured it was what they scraped off the bottom of the barrels. :eek:

Oh, and no feedzone, no problemo.

William

[ClutchCargo]

I know, you just made me think about cooking up the Brats on the grill and just blurted (well, pecked) it out.

that Brats advice was the most intelligent and useful post on this thread/board/the internet all day/month/year [pick one].

and, no , don't remember Heffenreffer (bet it made the heifers look better !). but I do remember Maximus Super (from the Matts brewery in Utica, NY). strange, though, since ingestion of that brew did not tend to aid the memory!

[coylifut]

that Brats advice was the most intelligent and useful post on this thread/board/the internet all day/month/year [pick one].

and, no , don't remember Heffenreffer (bet it made the heifers look better !). but I do remember Maximus Super (from the Matts brewery in Utica, NY). strange, though, since ingestion of that brew did not tend to aid the memory!

back before Hielmans consolodated the non premium beer business, every town had one or two active breweries. Here in the PNW we had Hams, Olympia, Rainer, Lucky and Blitz. In the summer, we'd get what ever was on sale, put it on ice and go rafting, to the beach, the mountains. In those days we'd occasionally splurge on Bud. If it was a special occasion, we'd get some Coors. When in Hawaii, we'd get Primo. Those were the days. We were typical American teenagers. We didn't know what good beer was and that's not why we were drinking it. The girls would never drink that stuff, they went for the wine out of a box. Can't believe we are still alive to talk about it.