OT: I know we have some shooters here...

[William]

When it comes to shotguns, what is your preference?

12ga/20ga
Pump
Semi-Auto
Dbl Barrel O/U or S/S

Illumination
Laser sights
Standard stock
Pistol grip

Target
Hunting
Home Defense


Or are you into futuristic like the Kel-Tec KSG Bull-Pup 15 shot?






William

[AngryScientist]

true to my love of all things euro, i've got (from my dad) a beloved franchi side-by-side 12G, used to use it for shooting clays quite a bit. fun gun. looks similar to this:

http://www.gunsamerica.com/userimages/99851/940099774/wm_md_2482327.jpg

[William]

true to my love of all things euro, i've got (from my dad) a beloved franchi side-by-side 12G, used to use it for shooting clays quite a bit. fun gun. looks similar to this:

http://www.gunsamerica.com/userimages/99851/940099774/wm_md_2482327.jpg

Very nice! And I found a new website to check out!!
http://www.franchiusa.com/firearms/i-12_upland_field.php




William

[CNY rider]

I have deer hunted with both 12g and 20g pump guns.
Neither comes close to my .243 Winchester rifle.
If I never deer hunt with a shotgun again it will be fine with me.

[93legendti]

http://www.defensereview.com/auto-assault-12-aa12-combat-shotgun-for-mille-special-operations/

[rugbysecondrow]

How apropos as I was talking with my wife about buying a shotgun for the house. With an earthquake, power outages from hurricanes as well as flooding from a tropical storm all in 2 weeks, I think some level of protection is reasonable if something catostrophic happens.

I don't know much about shotguns aside from shooting them some. They are big fun.

[AngryScientist]

i want to say that for home defense, pretty much any shotgun will do. knowing exactly how to use it is the key, being very comfortable with the gun.

if i were buying a shotgun simply for home defense, i would rather buy something nicer for target shooting to really get to know the gun. shooting clay birds is fun stuff, a stress reliever, and great for mental concentration. add to that, it doesnt hurt anyone and you get much more comfortable with the fire arm.

just a thought.

[rugbysecondrow]

i want to say that for home defense, pretty much any shotgun will do. knowing exactly how to use it is the key, being very comfortable with the gun.

if i were buying a shotgun simply for home defense, i would rather buy something nicer for target shooting to really get to know the gun. shooting clay birds is fun stuff, a stress reliever, and great for mental concentration. add to that, it doesnt hurt anyone and you get much more comfortable with the fire arm.

just a thought.

Agreed. Can't the ammo vary even for the same gun. My thought for home defense was an ammo with higher shot count and a wider pattern. Aim in the general direction and BOOM! Can one gun do that as well as target? That would be fun, I really enjoy shooting.

[goonster]

Aim in the general direction and BOOM! Can one gun do that as well as target?
For home defense you really want a shorter barrel (18'), both for short-range patterns and maneuverability. For clays and bird shooting you'll want a much longer barrel (28") with adjustable choke. The most versatile setup would be a pump gun with multiple barrels, e.g. Rem 870, Mossberg 500 etc.

Since shotguns are generally really very affordable, I'd get a home defense gun first, and leave it set up for that duty w. lighting, extended magazine, police barrel, preferred grip, etc. Then I'd get another, more specific for clays, target, and such. The two are really quite different animals, and one will not really do the job of the other very well.

[goonster]

My thought for home defense was an ammo with higher shot count and a wider pattern.
I believe the wider pattern is a function of barrel length and choke, not shot size. Shot size should be commensurate with the things you are defending your home against. The purpose of smaller shot is to not obliterate a duck or grouse, while larger shot is intended to penetrate to the vital organs of animals like deer. For home defense you have to consider the possibility of the load going through walls into other rooms. I reccommend practicing in the more sparsely used parts of the house.

[bigflax925]

I'm guilty of having a shotgun for every occasion.

I've got a Beretta Perennia SV10 o/u for upland game bird hunting

I've got a Beretta Xtrema semi-auto with synthetic stock for waterfowl hunting

I've got a Remington 870 for trap use

I've got a Remington 870 for home defense with Surefire lighted forearm and side saddle ammo carrier

I've got an LC Smith single barrel trap for... trap use.

Until I started adding to the collection my Remington 870 trap gun was my do everything shotgun, while my other 870 has always remained my home defense gun.

I prefer the pump guns, as the "warefare" starts with the racking of the slide. From my days in law enforcement, I know that a lot of naughty behavior can be curbed just by that sound alone.

I also find the pumps to be more reliable than their semi-automatic counterparts and less likely to require the same level of maintenance care. They are also more affordable.

[witcombusa]

you need to narrow down what the use of the gun is to be before a recomendation can be made. Also who will be using it, both size and experience level.

what is the primary purpose you want it for? more choices than bikes!

[goonster]

They are also more affordable.
And lighter.

[William]

Weidability is important. Also keep in mind penetration and what's behind the walls = family members. For more then two shots you could opt for a few cartridges of buckshot and then a few cartridges with slugs. But, a slug with drop them for sure but you have to contend over-penetration if you miss. A lot of things to keep in mind when you are talking about the home.



William

[rugbysecondrow]

I prefer the pump guns, as the "warefare" starts with the racking of the slide. From my days in law enforcement, I know that a lot of naughty behavior can be curbed just by that sound alone.
I also find the pumps to be more reliable than their semi-automatic counterparts and less likely to require the same level of maintenance care. They are also more affordable.


This is why also. I would rather not have to shoot somebody, so if this sound can make somebody piss their pants as they run from my house, good.

Growing up, I had two different friends killed/injured in firearms mishaps, so this has always been a concern of mine as an adult with kids. A shotgun seems like a better gun to have around. I would not have a handgun, but a shotgun seems "safer" than other options, although it comes down to how one secures their guns.

How do you folks secure your firearms, especially the home defense weapon?

[William]

How do you folks secure your firearms, especially the home defense weapon?

http://www.shotlock.com/Details.asp

http://shotlocksolovault.com/elements/viewfull_file/shotlock%20solo-vault_205.jpg

[toaster]

I have a Vang Comp Remington 870 Police Magnum shotgun.

https://vangcomp.com/Police_Magnum.html

The mother of all defensive shotguns!!

[witcombusa]

For home defence, with limited experience, a 20 gauge pump with a 18" barrel is a great starting point. For use in the house bird shot loads in the 7-8 size are just about perfect. These loads will drop anything in the same room as you without creating overpenetration issues on the other side of the sheetrock.

Practice with it enough to be comfortable using it. You may also want to consider a nice attached LED Surfire light so you can properly ID the "problem". Also get to know your local laws regarding it's use and both legal and moral implications.

[rugbysecondrow]

Thanks guys. Like I said, I was just having this conversation with my wife last night so very timely.

It seems the Remington 870 is a good quality shotgun.

[William]

The 870 is certainly a solid choice. there are other options as well depending on what you want to spend (just like bikes).

Ithaca M37
Stoeger P 350
Benelli M3 convertible pump
Winchester Super X Defender
Mossberg 500 series
EAA SAR
Escort
Kel-Tec

Etc... A good shotgun doesn't have to be super expensive, they'll all get the job done.

Some companies have also been coming out with Tactical/Home Defense Dbl Barrel shotguns.

Stoeger Double Defense
Mossberg Maverick
Escort Silver synthetic shorty


William

[parris]

First and most important thing is to get good training and find out if you are willing to take on the responsibility that a firearm any firearm demands. After that is taken care of then figure out what you want to do with the firearm. Hd is very different than competition or hunting gear. When talking competition and/or hunting what kind of competition or hunting also comes into play. Much like bicycles it's horses for courses.

For everyone the choice of what works for hd will tend to be different. I know people who are very very good with a handgun and given where they live that's the best option. I've got a couple of co-workers who utilize the ar plaform due to being out in the country and also the layout of their houses doesn't make that choice wrong. Shotguns can work very well in many hd situations but do require a bit of training to be effective and safe.

What uses are you looking at?

My preferences for sporting shotguns falls to vintage pump guns like the model 37 or model 12 in 16 gauge. as well as American sxs guns like the model 21. If I'm going after waterfowl and I know it's going to be ugly I've got an inexpensive pumpgun that I don't care if it gets beat up a bit. My competition guns are a spanish copy of a Perazzi and my 32" barreled model 21 which gets the nod for everything from sporting clays to International Skeet. I've also got a super x-1 for when my shoulder's hurting if I over do things.

[toaster]

For home defence, with limited experience, a 20 gauge pump with a 18" barrel is a great starting point. For use in the house bird shot loads in the 7-8 size are just about perfect. These loads will drop anything in the same room as you without creating overpenetration issues on the other side of the sheetrock.


Where did this information come from?? Sheetrock manufacturers??

[goonster]

Where did this information come from?? Sheetrock manufacturers??
There are websites of leche-fusiles shooting up everything you can think of, and tons more you can't. Even on youtube, iirc, there are videos of common shotgun loads vs. typical sheetrock setups at various distances. It will give you a rough idea of what goes through a wall.

[Acotts]

30-06 Pump Action Rifle.

The Amish Machine Gun, BABY!

[Ozz]

I used to hunt pheasant with a Remington 870, but I always looked forward to borrowing my dad's Browning Citori....both 20 gauge 3" mag

He had both a 20 and 12 gauge Browning Auto 5's as well....Until he bought those, he had his fathers Remington Model 11 from the 1920's...which was essentially the same gun.

[biker72]

For home defense I prefer pistols.
Don't take up much room.
Normally shorter range shooting.
Primary firearm: Colt 45 Model 1911.

[oliver1850]

When there used to be enough birds around to hunt, I mostly used a single shot. I've always loved the looks of side by side doubles though. Something like a LeFever would be my ideal.

[sean]

Not a shooter per se, but recently got to pair a Mini14 to a piece of Bullet Proof Bank Plexi- not in the bank, on a range.

It was pretty amazing.

[cuda2k]

Winchester 1300 Defender, 12 gauge pump for HD. Loaded with low-recoil OO-buck and 1oz solid slug. This stays in the closet, I have a pistol near the bed for late night house checks and/or getting from the bed to the closet to retrieve the shotgun if it came to that.

http://www.imfdb.org/w/images/thumb/4/4a/WinchesterModel1300Defender.jpg/500px-WinchesterModel1300Defender.jpg

http://www.lipseys.com/eImages/2008-EXCLUSIVE-GP100.jpg
and/or
http://www.ruger.com/products/sr9c/images/3313.jpg

Winchester Super X-1 Semi-Auto for sport.

http://www.myhostedpics.com/images/dstegjas/sx1.jpg

[gearguywb]

I have a bit of expierence in this realm. Unless you hate the rest of your family and/or neighbors, buck shot of any size and slugs are NOT recommended for home defense. Small shot size 71/2, 8, 9 will work just fine in the extremely short ranges for home protection.

If you have limited expierence with a shotgun and realistic targets I would suggest a few minutes on the range. Take a 12 gauge with 9 shot and fire at a piece of drywall and then 3/8" plywood from less than 10 feet. You will quickly get the point.

As others have said...nothing takes the place of familiarity with the chosen weapon combined with practice and good instruction.

[SEABREEZE]

my first choice, simply because there is no re coil

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fvwp&v=KqUb23XCTCY&NR=1


on a serious note, for home security and price the
Remingingon 870


a few hand guns scattered around the house, in safe locations. Something jumbs off in one room, you have acess for defense. Leave your firearms in 1 place in the house, and you cant get there to get them, your up the creek

A dog in your house will alert you before any damm alarm goes off.

[old_fat_and_slow]

Although a shotgun is a decent home defense weapon, it would not be my first choice. A "hunting" shotgun is way too long to manuever quickly in an interior situation, especially in tight hallways, and small rooms like a bathroom.

Modified (e.g., shortened) shotgun such as what Arnold carried in Terminator, are better, but still not as manueverable as a hand gun.

If you have a home intruder, and he becomes aware that you are awake, and if he is dead set on doing your family harm, he may try to ambush you beside an entry into a room you must pass to investigate the noise he made. In those situations, you will never be able to swing a shotgun around and defend yourself and your family.

My home defense weapon of choice would be a standard size handgun (revolver or semi-auto, doesn't matter) in a caliber .357 magnum or larger. I guarantee you at close range that will stop anybody. If you're not a gun-type guy, I even think bear spray is probably better than a shotgun for very close range defense.


YMMV

[AngryScientist]

here is a question for those in the know:

do they sell the (i assume) shotgun rounds that shoot sand bags, or whatever riot police use?

realistically, if someone did break into my house, and i had to defend myself or family with a firearm, i dont want to kill anyone, that would open up a whole slew of other issues not worth getting into, but hurting the crap out of the perpetrator and getting them to run the hell out of my house is best, especially if they think the gun is loaded with lethal rounds.

[Dekonick]

Agreed. Can't the ammo vary even for the same gun. My thought for home defense was an ammo with higher shot count and a wider pattern. Aim in the general direction and BOOM! Can one gun do that as well as target? That would be fun, I really enjoy shooting.

Home protection -

12G double barrel. #6 bird shot. (won't go through the walls...)

Go to the range and shoot several boxes of shells to get comfortable. Make your wife do the same.

Why the above gun? Because it is SIMPLE. Simplicity is what you want. There is something to be said for the sound of a pump action... I must admit...

Now - for real home defense get a dog.

[Dekonick]

here is a question for those in the know:

do they sell the (i assume) shotgun rounds that shoot sand bags, or whatever riot police use?

realistically, if someone did break into my house, and i had to defend myself or family with a firearm, i dont want to kill anyone, that would open up a whole slew of other issues not worth getting into, but hurting the crap out of the perpetrator and getting them to run the hell out of my house is best, especially if they think the gun is loaded with lethal rounds.

I don't know if anyone can buy 'em... but I have a good friend in the ATF that has bean bag loads. If you don't want to kill them, then use a rock salt load.

[Dekonick]

Although a shotgun is a decent home defense weapon, it would not be my first choice. A "hunting" shotgun is way too long to manuever quickly in an interior situation, especially in tight hallways, and small rooms like a bathroom.

Modified (e.g., shortened) shotgun such as what Arnold carried in Terminator, are better, but still not as manueverable as a hand gun.

If you have a home intruder, and he becomes aware that you are awake, and if he is dead set on doing your family harm, he may try to ambush you beside an entry into a room you must pass to investigate the noise he made. In those situations, you will never be able to swing a shotgun around and defend yourself and your family.

My home defense weapon of choice would be a standard size handgun (revolver or semi-auto, doesn't matter) in a caliber .357 magnum or larger. I guarantee you at close range that will stop anybody. If you're not a gun-type guy, I even think bear spray is probably better than a shotgun for very close range defense.


YMMV

The better answer is to barricade yourself and family in a room. Call the cops... and wait. If the perp comes into your room, then shoot them dead. Otherwise, let them take whatever they want and keep the family safe. A handgun is much more likely to kill someone you know than a thief - plenty of statistics on that. A handgun is also a liability unless you know how to use one and practice regularly. Ever see cops unload a clip into a car and not one round hit the suspect? They are trained... and yet in a pressure situation even training may not be enough.

[BigDaddySmooth]

Ever see cops unload a clip into a car and not one round hit the suspect? They are trained... and yet in a pressure situation even training may not be enough.

I have a friend who is a police officer in a western city. He and 2 other cops were involved in a "suicide by cop" incident. Eventhough there was plenty of time to difuse the situation (he had a knife) and they were presumably not under immediate duress, when the time came and the guy lunged, they all emptied their 40s...45 shots in < 5 seconds. He told me he was hit about 9x.

I doubt there are few people, awakened in the middle of the night, in a dark house and w/adrenaline pumping would be able to use a handgun effectively. Best thing to do is call the cops, grab Old Betsy, loudly chamber a round, secure the family and wait. An alarm system and a dog wouldn't hurt either.

[rugbysecondrow]

Ever see cops unload a clip into a car and not one round hit the suspect? They are trained... and yet in a pressure situation even training may not be enough.

I have a friend who is a police officer in a western city. He and 2 other cops were involved in a "suicide by cop" incident. Eventhough there was plenty of time to difuse the situation (he had a knife) and they were presumably not under immediate duress, when the time came and the guy lunged, they all emptied their 40s...45 shots in < 5 seconds. He told me he was hit about 9x.

I doubt there are few people, awakened in the middle of the night, in a dark house and w/adrenaline pumping would be able to use a handgun effectively. Best thing to do is call the cops, grab Old Betsy, loudly chamber a round, secure the family and wait. An alarm system and a dog wouldn't hurt either.

Amen. I have read about these stories and always feel bad for the police.

[William]

http://legacysports.com/images/products/ESC_OU3_Lo.jpg

[Pyramor]

How about this for home defense.

Or the more practical (http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/sons-of-guns-12-gauge-gatling-plan.html)

[witcombusa]

The better answer is to barricade yourself and family in a room. Call the cops... and wait. If the perp comes into your room, then shoot them dead. Otherwise, let them take whatever they want and keep the family safe. A handgun is much more likely to kill someone you know than a thief - plenty of statistics on that. A handgun is also a liability unless you know how to use one and practice regularly. Ever see cops unload a clip into a car and not one round hit the suspect? They are trained... and yet in a pressure situation even training may not be enough.


The police are not responsible for your personal safety, that falls on you.


Wait? for what, to be killed? :confused:

[toaster]

What if your home intruder is a duck?

Then a bird load should work fine.

What if it were an armed human being trying to kill you?

Then don't aim at the wall, shoot the bad guy he'll stop the round from penetrating the wall.

Where does all this stuff about bird shot as a defensive load come from? Doesn't make sense that a couple of layers of clothing on your bad guy, or a jacket, or 5 more feet of distance start to make a #7 shot pretty ineffective?

[csm]

beretta 12 ga o/u for upland birds
remington 870 for turkey and waterfowl
glock 17 for everything else that needs shootin...

[IFRider]

I get guns. My dad was a competitive shooter on the Nassau Country PD. I was in the rifle team in high school.

Talking shot us, my Dad has a gorgeous Browning semi-automatic 12 gauge (made in Belgium). I the '70s, it was very common for people to leave guns in a gun case unlocked. My dads was in the basement with various other rifles and shotguns. Well, being twelve I thought there was nothing cooler than taking the guns out of the cabinet to hold and manipulate. The Browning was cool because it if I pulled the chamber open, it locked open until I depressed a button. The noise made was really cool sounding. Over a series of episodes, I found shells and it was really cool to how the shell was ejected out onto the floor. I would play with them, pretending to be a cowboy when my parents were not home. Well, all it took was onetime out of sequence and a live 12 gauge buckshot round was in the chamber. I am in the unfinished basement tracking imaginary Indians across the basement. I have the gun to my shoulder but not tight and I sweep left past my grandmothers china cabinet and before I reach the stand up freezer I pull the trigger. I go flying across the basement and land on my a$$. Te gun luckily falls on the laundry pile. The room is filled with acrid smoke and my ears are ringing. I missed the china cabinet and the freeze but put an 8 inch round divet in the basement wall. There was concrete everywhere. I ran upstairs and my little brother was the only person home. I tell him the furnace backfired and wait here. I franitically clean up the dust and pellets. I took a old picture and using duct tape hung it over the hole in the cement. I cleaned the shotgun off and put it back and never touched the guns to play again. I finally told my dad 23 years later and he never knew.

I don't own guns now, but did so enjoy them in my youth.

Warren

[witcombusa]

What if your home intruder is a duck?

Then a bird load should work fine.

What if it were an armed human being trying to kill you?

Then don't aim at the wall, shoot the bad guy he'll stop the round from penetrating the wall.

Where does all this stuff about bird shot as a defensive load come from? Doesn't make sense that a couple of layers of clothing on your bad guy, or a jacket, or 5 more feet of distance start to make a #7 shot pretty ineffective?
You want to stand in front of a low brass load of #8 shot from 5 feet away?

I'll bet you don't.

[Ozz]

...Talking shot us, my Dad has a gorgeous Browning semi-automatic 12 gauge (made in Belgium). ...
yep...my dad has the same gun(s) in 12 and 20 gauge. He bought the 20 for my Mom, but liked it so much he used it himself for pheasant! :)

Great story BTW....

[old_fat_and_slow]

A handgun is also a liability unless you know how to use one and practice regularly.

I respectfully disagree. You give a gun to any fool that doesn't practice, and you've got an accident waiting to happen. Rifle, shotgun, handgun ... whatever.

My post although, not stated, assumed a certain level of proficiency with the weapon.

However, if you want to defend your home with a shotgun fine. I stated that was an okay choice, but IMHO a handgun is much better.

If you disagree that is fine.

A handgun is much more likely to kill someone you know than a thief - plenty of statistics on that.

I can't help the fact that there are a lot of untrainded boobs out there that think handguns are cool, and make them feel macho. When you purchase a gun you take on a large responsibility to be proficient with it, and keep it locked and away from potential untrained users such as your kids.

Sorry if I'm the lone dissenter, but I prefer a handgun.

YMMV

[Dekonick]

What if your home intruder is a duck?

Then a bird load should work fine.

What if it were an armed human being trying to kill you?

Then don't aim at the wall, shoot the bad guy he'll stop the round from penetrating the wall.

Where does all this stuff about bird shot as a defensive load come from? Doesn't make sense that a couple of layers of clothing on your bad guy, or a jacket, or 5 more feet of distance start to make a #7 shot pretty ineffective?

The bird shot as a defensive load makes sense. You have 2 shots - fire once and do you honestly think they are going to stick around for number 2? If someone is armed and in my home, I just want them to know I have a gun, will use it, and have police coming. It is not my job to hunt them down... that is for the police. My dog is the primary deterrent - loud bark, makes it known he is there, and he does a good job patrolling his turf. Secondary deterrent is an alarm system. Third is a cell phone. 4th - and last option - is to barricade the family in a safe room with the gun aimed at the door. Announce it clearly that if anyone opens the door, they are dead... etc. I would use my Ithica pump 12g, with bird shot in shell#1, buck shot in #2... The gun we have for my wife to use is a 12g double barrel. Simple to use, nothing to think about.

As far as clothing and someone coming after your family... bird shot will still penetrate at close range. Worried? shoot them in the groin/ upper legs.

FWIW - the selection of bird shot comes from family suggestion (my wife's aunt is FBI, my father in law shoots every week) and from friends (again, ATF, Police, and one member of the Secret Service) They ALL agree that a handgun is a liability unless trained and lots of regular practice... most agree birdshot is effective... actually, they mostly say just the sight of a loaded shotgun is enough to deter just about any thief. Someone out to harm you is another story...

[Frankwurst]

Sporting 870 Remington
Hunting 870 Remington
Home defense 870 Remington
Unlike bicycles I really don't have a problem with the question "If you could only have one......." :beer:

[Ozz]

...... actually, they mostly say just the sight of a loaded shotgun is enough to deter just about any thief. Someone out to harm you is another story...
I suspect that any home intruder is lazy an a coward. If they know you have a gun, they will move onto an easier target.....

[Dekonick]

I respectfully disagree. You give a gun to any fool that doesn't practice, and you've got an accident waiting to happen. Rifle, shotgun, handgun ... whatever.

My post although, not stated, assumed a certain level of proficiency with the weapon.

However, if you want to defend your home with a shotgun fine. I stated that was an okay choice, but IMHO a handgun is much better.

If you disagree that is fine.

I totally agree that to safely use any weapon you need to practice. I still say a handgun in a home (especially one with children) is a liability. There are plenty of statistics to support this view. Regardless, any gun should be secure, with ammunition in a separate easily accessed location. I have my guns in a safe, the ammo in another locked safe.

A quick search and I found this:

What do we know about kids and gun accidents and suicides?
When researchers studied the 30,000 accidental gun deaths of Americans of all ages that occurred between 1979-1997, they found that preschoolers aged 0-4 were 17 times more likely to die from a gun accident in the 4 states with the most guns versus the 4 states with the least guns. Likewise, school kids aged 5-14 were over 13 times more at risk of accidental firearm death in the states with high gun ownership rates. The findings indicate that gun availability is associated with accidental death by shooting [4].

Most guns involved in self-inflicted and unintentional firearm injuries (that is, in suicides and accidents) came either from the victim's home or the home of a friend or relative [5].

Where and how safely do families with kids store their guns?
More than a third (35%) of homes with children—that's 22 million children ages 18 and under in more than 11 million homes—had at least one firearm, found researchers in a RAND-UCLA study [6]. But only 39% of these families keep their firearms locked, unloaded, and separate from ammunition as recommended by the American Academy of Pediatrics. 43% of these U.S. homes with children and guns reported keeping one or more firearms in an unlocked place and without a trigger lock. Nine percent keep their guns loaded as well as unlocked. This analysis is based on data from 1994 interviews conducted in tens of thousands of households by the National Center for Health Statistics. (See Guns in the Family: Firearm Storage Patterns in U.S. Homes with Children for a fuller report.)

So, what does this mean to me?
If you have kids in your house, and you keep firearms, keep the guns locked and unloaded, with the ammunition locked in a separate location.

taken from this website: http://med.umich.edu/yourchild/topics/guns.htm

I support firearm ownership. I DO believe handguns are dangerous to children. All it takes is leaving your gun unsecured once and tragedy can occur. I remember vividly an incident I ran 10 years ago... a federal agent came home from work... left his service weapon on top of the fridge... his kid and a neighborhood friend found the gun, and just playing around... dead kid.

A handgun is just too easy to manipulate. Too tempting to play with. Not in my home. (I do have a pellet pistol for target shooting... and it is out of reach with a trigger guard...)

[Dekonick]

I suspect that any home intruder is lazy an a coward. If they know you have a gun, they will move onto an easier target.....

That is why a dog is one of the best deterrents.

[cincytri]

///While your question was not exactly the same as the ST topic, I think my post would apply to your question as well. Hope it helps.///

McD-
First off, sorry to hear of the recent troubles in the neighborhood. I am sure that you and your S/O are a bit rattled and rightly so. Good for you for deciding to be proactive and seek out solutions/options for your situation.

Secondly, there is a tremendous amount of misinformation in this thread. Only you can decide what type, if any, firearms are appropriate for your plan. The suggestion that woman cannot properly defend themselves with a shotgun is a preposterous and sexist statement. There are a number of different weapon systems with specific ergonomics and accessory options for smaller shooters. Ammunition choices also play a significant role in the equation. Many 00 buck home defense loads are available as "reduced recoil." Those versions allow for less felt recoil and the ability to get back on target more quickly after each shot. I would not recommend the bird loads or really anything less than 00 for home defense. #4 buck could be used, but in a home invasion scenario, I would want the bigger projectiles. Bottom line, woman can and are trained to be proficient in the use of shotguns.


An AR15/M4 platform is another option. Large capacity magazines are available and the rounds are capable of defeating body armor. Decide for yourself whether those considerations are relevant for your situation. For close-quarters, home defense situations, I think that the shotgun is the better option. They are versatile and devastatingly effective when used properly. Have a .40 cal handgun available for backup.


I'll echo many of the comments made by Steve H. and point out that most true "gunfighters" advocate the use of long guns as the primary offensive and defensive weapon. Most "experts" would tell you that the handgun is your back up weapon that you only bring out when the long gun goes down due to a malfunction or lack of ammunition. Decide for yourself if you want to be "gunfighters." You will have to make a commitment to training and equipment should you go that route. It can be done, but only you will know your capabilities.


Consider the costs of equipping and training yourself. Quality handguns run between $400.00-1000.00. A shotgun will run you between $400.00-2000.00 depending on you choices. Rifles for defense are north of $1000.00 and go up quickly. A good safe capable of securing long guns is $1000.00 +. Smaller handgun safes are out there for less than half that amount. Training courses and ammunition could easily run you $1000.00. Whatever you decide, secure your firearms and learn how to use them properly and effectively. Know your limitations and strengths and factor them in to your decisions. Resist the temptation to blindly follow your "buddy's" advice or internet experts. Don't sacrifice simplicity and effectiveness for being "tacticool."

Exterior lighting, alarm company signs, clearing brush from the perimeter of your home are your first steps. Consider motion detector lighting as well. Monitored alarm systems and locked, secure doors are a must. Get into a routine of double checking. Large dogs are always a good option if for no other purpose than alerting you to danger. If they attack or scare off intruders, consider that a bonus. Your last line of defense is you and your firearms. Plan ahead for what you will do if all of the other measures are ineffective in stopping the threat. Rehearse your movements and tell your family ahead of time what you expect of them. Rehearse it again...seriously.


Home invasions are serious business. B&E's are your typical night time thefts from a business. Burglary typically involves the theft (or other felony offense) from a dwelling or residence. Home invasions in the LE community are typically associated with a planned robbery involving drugs, money or targeted violence. Think of robbery crews who target drug dealers where they keep their drugs or money. These are the guys who show up with guns and are prepared for armed resistance. They follow drug dealers, watch their movements and plan their attack. About as dangerous as it gets. Contrast that with your neighbor's experience. While technically a home invasion because the home was occupied at the time, the intent of the bad guys was likely theft of goods for resale. Definitely dangerous, but not the same at all.


This country has an obsession with firearms. I don't think we can have a serious discussion about violent crime in this country without considering that fact. However, I am not sure that has much to do with defending your home. You can include firearms into your home defense plan without lathering yourself in gun oils and doing re-enactments of the basement scene in Silence of the Lambs. Firearms can be an effective tool in your home defense plan and you need not become a "gun nut" should you decide to employ them. Good luck in your decisions

[csm]

I suspect that any home intruder is lazy an a coward. If they know you have a gun, they will move onto an easier target.....
I propose we have some sort of sign for the militant NON-gun owners/anti gun lobby to post in the yards.
something along the lines of "GUN-FREE HOME" to keep the baddies from picking the wrong house. it is sorta Canadian to be living under someone else's nuclear umbrella so to speak....
and before this gets locked due to the next few comments...... I kid I kid.
I would never ask someone to put a sign in front of their house.

[CNY rider]

If someone is armed and in my home, I just want them to know I have a gun, will use it, and have police coming.

If someone is armed and in MY home I am going to do everything possible to make them as dead as possible, as quickly as possible.

[Frankwurst]

///While your question was not exactly the same as the ST topic, I think my post would apply to your question as well. Hope it helps.///

McD-
First off, sorry to hear of the recent troubles in the neighborhood. I am sure that you and your S/O are a bit rattled and rightly so. Good for you for deciding to be proactive and seek out solutions/options for your situation.

Secondly, there is a tremendous amount of misinformation in this thread. Only you can decide what type, if any, firearms are appropriate for your plan. The suggestion that woman cannot properly defend themselves with a shotgun is a preposterous and sexist statement. There are a number of different weapon systems with specific ergonomics and accessory options for smaller shooters. Ammunition choices also play a significant role in the equation. Many 00 buck home defense loads are available as "reduced recoil." Those versions allow for less felt recoil and the ability to get back on target more quickly after each shot. I would not recommend the bird loads or really anything less than 00 for home defense. #4 buck could be used, but in a home invasion scenario, I would want the bigger projectiles. Bottom line, woman can and are trained to be proficient in the use of shotguns.


An AR15/M4 platform is another option. Large capacity magazines are available and the rounds are capable of defeating body armor. Decide for yourself whether those considerations are relevant for your situation. For close-quarters, home defense situations, I think that the shotgun is the better option. They are versatile and devastatingly effective when used properly. Have a .40 cal handgun available for backup.


I'll echo many of the comments made by Steve H. and point out that most true "gunfighters" advocate the use of long guns as the primary offensive and defensive weapon. Most "experts" would tell you that the handgun is your back up weapon that you only bring out when the long gun goes down due to a malfunction or lack of ammunition. Decide for yourself if you want to be "gunfighters." You will have to make a commitment to training and equipment should you go that route. It can be done, but only you will know your capabilities.


Consider the costs of equipping and training yourself. Quality handguns run between $400.00-1000.00. A shotgun will run you between $400.00-2000.00 depending on you choices. Rifles for defense are north of $1000.00 and go up quickly. A good safe capable of securing long guns is $1000.00 +. Smaller handgun safes are out there for less than half that amount. Training courses and ammunition could easily run you $1000.00. Whatever you decide, secure your firearms and learn how to use them properly and effectively. Know your limitations and strengths and factor them in to your decisions. Resist the temptation to blindly follow your "buddy's" advice or internet experts. Don't sacrifice simplicity and effectiveness for being "tacticool."

Exterior lighting, alarm company signs, clearing brush from the perimeter of your home are your first steps. Consider motion detector lighting as well. Monitored alarm systems and locked, secure doors are a must. Get into a routine of double checking. Large dogs are always a good option if for no other purpose than alerting you to danger. If they attack or scare off intruders, consider that a bonus. Your last line of defense is you and your firearms. Plan ahead for what you will do if all of the other measures are ineffective in stopping the threat. Rehearse your movements and tell your family ahead of time what you expect of them. Rehearse it again...seriously.


Home invasions are serious business. B&E's are your typical night time thefts from a business. Burglary typically involves the theft (or other felony offense) from a dwelling or residence. Home invasions in the LE community are typically associated with a planned robbery involving drugs, money or targeted violence. Think of robbery crews who target drug dealers where they keep their drugs or money. These are the guys who show up with guns and are prepared for armed resistance. They follow drug dealers, watch their movements and plan their attack. About as dangerous as it gets. Contrast that with your neighbor's experience. While technically a home invasion because the home was occupied at the time, the intent of the bad guys was likely theft of goods for resale. Definitely dangerous, but not the same at all.


This country has an obsession with firearms. I don't think we can have a serious discussion about violent crime in this country without considering that fact. However, I am not sure that has much to do with defending your home. You can include firearms into your home defense plan without lathering yourself in gun oils and doing re-enactments of the basement scene in Silence of the Lambs. Firearms can be an effective tool in your home defense plan and you need not become a "gun nut" should you decide to employ them. Good luck in your decisions

I am pro gun and I endorse this message. :beer:

[Frankwurst]

If someone is armed and in MY home I am going to do everything possible to make them as dead as possible, as quickly as possible.

Double post. I endorse this one too! :beer:

[Dekonick]

It is a dangerous game to hunt someone down... I leave that to the experts. I am comfortable making it known I am armed and have called PD.

[Dekonick]

///While your question was not exactly the same as the ST topic, I think my post would apply to your question as well. Hope it helps.///

McD-
First off, sorry to hear of the recent troubles in the neighborhood. I am sure that you and your S/O are a bit rattled and rightly so. Good for you for deciding to be proactive and seek out solutions/options for your situation.

Secondly, there is a tremendous amount of misinformation in this thread. Only you can decide what type, if any, firearms are appropriate for your plan. The suggestion that woman cannot properly defend themselves with a shotgun is a preposterous and sexist statement. There are a number of different weapon systems with specific ergonomics and accessory options for smaller shooters. Ammunition choices also play a significant role in the equation. Many 00 buck home defense loads are available as "reduced recoil." Those versions allow for less felt recoil and the ability to get back on target more quickly after each shot. I would not recommend the bird loads or really anything less than 00 for home defense. #4 buck could be used, but in a home invasion scenario, I would want the bigger projectiles. Bottom line, woman can and are trained to be proficient in the use of shotguns.


An AR15/M4 platform is another option. Large capacity magazines are available and the rounds are capable of defeating body armor. Decide for yourself whether those considerations are relevant for your situation. For close-quarters, home defense situations, I think that the shotgun is the better option. They are versatile and devastatingly effective when used properly. Have a .40 cal handgun available for backup.


I'll echo many of the comments made by Steve H. and point out that most true "gunfighters" advocate the use of long guns as the primary offensive and defensive weapon. Most "experts" would tell you that the handgun is your back up weapon that you only bring out when the long gun goes down due to a malfunction or lack of ammunition. Decide for yourself if you want to be "gunfighters." You will have to make a commitment to training and equipment should you go that route. It can be done, but only you will know your capabilities.


Consider the costs of equipping and training yourself. Quality handguns run between $400.00-1000.00. A shotgun will run you between $400.00-2000.00 depending on you choices. Rifles for defense are north of $1000.00 and go up quickly. A good safe capable of securing long guns is $1000.00 +. Smaller handgun safes are out there for less than half that amount. Training courses and ammunition could easily run you $1000.00. Whatever you decide, secure your firearms and learn how to use them properly and effectively. Know your limitations and strengths and factor them in to your decisions. Resist the temptation to blindly follow your "buddy's" advice or internet experts. Don't sacrifice simplicity and effectiveness for being "tacticool."

Exterior lighting, alarm company signs, clearing brush from the perimeter of your home are your first steps. Consider motion detector lighting as well. Monitored alarm systems and locked, secure doors are a must. Get into a routine of double checking. Large dogs are always a good option if for no other purpose than alerting you to danger. If they attack or scare off intruders, consider that a bonus. Your last line of defense is you and your firearms. Plan ahead for what you will do if all of the other measures are ineffective in stopping the threat. Rehearse your movements and tell your family ahead of time what you expect of them. Rehearse it again...seriously.


Home invasions are serious business. B&E's are your typical night time thefts from a business. Burglary typically involves the theft (or other felony offense) from a dwelling or residence. Home invasions in the LE community are typically associated with a planned robbery involving drugs, money or targeted violence. Think of robbery crews who target drug dealers where they keep their drugs or money. These are the guys who show up with guns and are prepared for armed resistance. They follow drug dealers, watch their movements and plan their attack. About as dangerous as it gets. Contrast that with your neighbor's experience. While technically a home invasion because the home was occupied at the time, the intent of the bad guys was likely theft of goods for resale. Definitely dangerous, but not the same at all.


This country has an obsession with firearms. I don't think we can have a serious discussion about violent crime in this country without considering that fact. However, I am not sure that has much to do with defending your home. You can include firearms into your home defense plan without lathering yourself in gun oils and doing re-enactments of the basement scene in Silence of the Lambs. Firearms can be an effective tool in your home defense plan and you need not become a "gun nut" should you decide to employ them. Good luck in your decisions

I agree with everything here - except that I endorse birdshot.

Somehow I do not think an AR-15 is a great weapon for someone who is not into guns. Shotgun - keep it simple.

[johnnymossville]

Never bought a gun for self defense, but if I did it would be a pump 12 guage shotgun. Probably an 870.

[parris]

When the thread was started I thought that it was put out as more of a "what kind of shotgun works for you in these areas". The poster then listed many variables. The hd aspect of the shotgun as a firearm of choice was only one aspect. Many of us on both sides of the issue have weighed in on the hd portion of the original post. How about bringing more sporting uses to the table as this is something that would show what I believe is more variety in the type, gauge, action of the shotguns used?

As someone who has been into many aspects and uses of the shotgun I can say there's as large a variety of shotguns and ways to use them as there are bicycles. I'll expand on my earlier post from today as there's been time to consider the original post. These are personal choices that work for me given where I live and how I hunt/shoot.

General field: Ithaca model 37 16ga 26" barrel mod choke, Fox Sterlingworth 16ga 26" barrel ic/full choke straight grip sxs.

Deer: Ithaca model 37 16ga deerslayer 26" barrel rifle sight.

Upland/ light field: Ugartechea model 30 28ga 25" barrel retro fitted with choke tubes straight stock sxs, Rizzini 28 ga 28" barrel choke tubes o/u, Ithaca model 37 20ga Ultra featherweight 25" barrel ic choke aluminum receiver.

Waterfowl: Marlin 120 12ga 3"mag 30" barrel mod choke. Winchester model 21 3" 28" barrel full/full sxs this one only gets non toxic shot that won't beat it up.

Clay target: there are several shotguns I use for these various games. Main competition gun is a Winchester model 21 duck custom stocked and balanced for me. 12 gauge 32" barrels choked mod/mod weighs just under 8lb with trigger pull weight set up at 4.0rt/4.25lt. back up gun Winchester Super X-1 12 gauge 28" barrel choked mod. Fun guns Winchester model 42 .410 solid rib choked full, Rizzini 28 ga listed above in hunting section, Winchester model 12 12 gauge 28" barrel choked mod.

There are several other shotguns I own but the ones listed above are what actually get a fair amount of use.

Before I had the 21 My main competition gun was a Browning Citori which digested an obscene number of shells without ever missing a beat. My first decent shotgun was a Remington 1187 that I used for everything and that went north of 35,000 rounds before it went down the road.

Good shotguns are very durable and long lived. models like the 870 have been around since 1950 and can be had in all popular gauges/caliber given that the .410 is not a gauge but a caliber. There are many other models that give great service. The thing to do is research and get GOOD training/education.

[johnnymossville]

This thread got me thinking of my H&R .410. It was a gift from my Dad and it was his Dad's.

When my Dad and I would go snowshoe rabbit hunting my fingers would get so cold I'd have to cock the hammer on the trunk of a tree!

[Frankwurst]

When the thread was started I thought that it was put out as more of a "what kind of shotgun works for you in these areas". The poster then listed many variables. The hd aspect of the shotgun as a firearm of choice was only one aspect. Many of us on both sides of the issue have weighed in on the hd portion of the original post. How about bringing more sporting uses to the table as this is something that would show what I believe is more variety in the type, gauge, action of the shotguns used?

As someone who has been into many aspects and uses of the shotgun I can say there's as large a variety of shotguns and ways to use them as there are bicycles. I'll expand on my earlier post from today as there's been time to consider the original post. These are personal choices that work for me given where I live and how I hunt/shoot.

General field: Ithaca model 37 16ga 26" barrel mod choke, Fox Sterlingworth 16ga 26" barrel ic/full choke straight grip sxs.

Deer: Ithaca model 37 16ga deerslayer 26" barrel rifle sight.

Upland/ light field: Ugartechea model 30 28ga 25" barrel retro fitted with choke tubes straight stock sxs, Rizzini 28 ga 28" barrel choke tubes o/u, Ithaca model 37 20ga Ultra featherweight 25" barrel ic choke aluminum receiver.

Waterfowl: Marlin 120 12ga 3"mag 30" barrel mod choke. Winchester model 21 3" 28" barrel full/full sxs this one only gets non toxic shot that won't beat it up.

Clay target: there are several shotguns I use for these various games. Main competition gun is a Winchester model 21 duck custom stocked and balanced for me. 12 gauge 32" barrels choked mod/mod weighs just under 8lb with trigger pull weight set up at 4.0rt/4.25lt. back up gun Winchester Super X-1 12 gauge 28" barrel choked mod. Fun guns Winchester model 42 .410 solid rib choked full, Rizzini 28 ga listed above in hunting section, Winchester model 12 12 gauge 28" barrel choked mod.

There are several other shotguns I own but the ones listed above are what actually get a fair amount of use.

Before I had the 21 My main competition gun was a Browning Citori which digested an obscene number of shells without ever missing a beat. My first decent shotgun was a Remington 1187 that I used for everything and that went north of 35,000 rounds before it went down the road.

Good shotguns are very durable and long lived. models like the 870 have been around since 1950 and can be had in all popular gauges/caliber given that the .410 is not a gauge but a caliber. There are many other models that give great service. The thing to do is research and get GOOD training/education.

You have excellent taste in shotguns. If I used shotguns as much as I use bicycles and rifles many of the ones you mention would be in my gun collection. I prefer the 870 simply because of it's versatility, ease of maintenance and they'll do anything I need to do with a shotgun. On a side note anybody that thinks it's easy to be a good shot with a shotgun has never really USED a shotgun. :beer:

[oliver1850]

Some of the comments reminded me of what my grandpa told me he and his brother used to do "for fun". They would get a distance away from each other, and shoot each other in the back with shotguns, coming a bit closer after each exchange, until one said uncle. They never did demonstrate it for me, so it could have been a lie.

[parris]

Frankwurst:

Thanks for the comments. Most of the shotguns fell into my lap over time. I was good friends with one of the best Winchester restoration smiths in the nation. He worked on other firearms but he was brought to the Winchester custom shop in the early/mid 80's in order to learn in depth factory finishes, prep, repair, restoration, and upgrade work. He's where I developed the appreciation for the various Winchester shotguns I now own. The model 12 and Super X-1 fit me better than the 870 and 1100/1187 as the Remington shotguns tend to be a bit short and the comb height tends to be a bit low for me other than the various trap models.

I'm an 870/1187 armorer for our dept and the amount of abuse these things can take and continue to function is REALLY impressive.

[gdw]

Very nice collection but I'm surprised that as an upstate New Yorker you don't have a Parker stashed away.

[Frankwurst]

I understand and like bicycles there are always some I regret selling. A model twelve I bought for a song and a dance was one of them. Arguably one of the best shotguns ever made. :beer:

[toaster]

http://theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

[alancw3]

sold all of my guns several years ago but i recently saw the videos on the AA12 and have to say it caught my interest from a pure interest in shotguns:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4ebtj1jR7c

[parris]

gdw:

I've had the option to pick up a decent gh in 16 but the stock had to much drop and I found myself looking into the back of the receiver. There were a few others but given what "good" condition Parkers bring it was more than I wanted to pay.

I do own examples from several other makers from that era. Some are long term restoration projects and others are ready to go. I've been very lucky in what I've been able to collect over the years.

[gearguywb]

///An AR15/M4 platform is another option. Large capacity magazines are available and the rounds are capable of defeating body armor. Decide for yourself whether those considerations are relevant for your situation. For close-quarters, home defense situations, I think that the shotgun is the better option. They are versatile and devastatingly effective when used properly. Have a .40 cal handgun available for backup.


IMHO,any rifle cartridge is a poor choice. I spent several years on an Team at Bragg and several more teaching other SF guys how to do CQB. Even very well trained, highly motivated guys (under stressfull situations) miss targets that are 4 feet away.

The OP is trying to proctect his family, not take down a crack house. If someone is breaking into your home wearing body armor you have a few more issues to contend with.

Firearms can certainly be part of a defensive plan but be prepared to spend the time to become proficient and have a plan. The bottom line is your family's safety, not getting into a gun fight. Retreat and protect.

[rugbysecondrow]

IMHO,any rifle cartridge is a poor choice. I spent several years on an Team at Bragg and several more teaching other SF guys how to do CQB. Even very well trained, highly motivated guys (under stressfull situations) miss targets that are 4 feet away.

The OP is trying to proctect his family, not take down a crack house. If someone is breaking into your home wearing body armor you have a few more issues to contend with.

Firearms can certainly be part of a defensive plan but be prepared to spend the time to become proficient and have a plan. The bottom line is your family's safety, not getting into a gun fight. Retreat and protect.


This is my way of thinking as well. I have experience shooting from times growing up as well as basic skills learned in the military, but having a gun in the home requires me to have a higher level of training and understanding. It is not a camera that is simply point and click, so I agree with the advice regarding comfort and training.

Toaster, the link you posted is helpful. I think it articulates a benefit of the shotgun which is shot/pellet options based on the need/purpose of the owner.

[cuda2k]

IMHO,any rifle cartridge is a poor choice. I spent several years on an Team at Bragg and several more teaching other SF guys how to do CQB. Even very well trained, highly motivated guys (under stressfull situations) miss targets that are 4 feet away.

The OP is trying to proctect his family, not take down a crack house. If someone is breaking into your home wearing body armor you have a few more issues to contend with.

Firearms can certainly be part of a defensive plan but be prepared to spend the time to become proficient and have a plan. The bottom line is your family's safety, not getting into a gun fight. Retreat and protect.

Agreed. This is why my shotgun is in the Master Bath closet, if it is obvious that there is someone in the house with no intent on being quiet about it, the pistol is for getting me and my wife from our bed to the bath about 5ft away. From there, the shotgun gets trained on the door while she calls for police. This works well for us, without kids to be worried about in other rooms of the house. Everyone's situation is different, and what works for one may not be the best solution for someone else. The one universal is that you should be experienced with any (and all) firearms in the house, oh, and to ensure that children can not gain easy access to them.

[William]

I started the thread in an effort to discuss the many facets of the shotgun since I know we have many owners here. The discussion so for has been mostly HD oriented which is fine. In that vein, here is a decent article for consideration touching on choices and training.

Thank you for all your responses!


William

**********************************************

HOME DEFENSE SHOTGUNS
by Len Waldron
Training with the most reliable and flexible platform for home protection.
http://www.tactical-life.com/online/exclusives/home-defense-shotguns/

"As a weapon of personal defense, the benefits of the shotgun are undeniable. The most obvious is power. At close range (say 10 yards), an attacker shot accurately with 00 buckshot will have to deal with the equivalent mass of 4.5 rounds of 9mm pistol ammo—all at once. The impact alone is likely to permanently incapacitate most mortals. But is it right for everyone?

In many ways, particularly when compared to a magazine-fed AR or a semi-automatic pistol, the shotgun will at first, seem simple. Big clunky cartridges, big round holes to put them in, and actions so loose and open that even a first-timer can perform basic functions in an intuitive way. Countless American homes have ‘Grandaddy’s’ side-by-side that only requires breaking the action at the trigger and loading the rounds straight in to each barrel. Click, it’s closed—safety, trigger, check—point and shoot. Its’ the equivalent of going to the fat, baby Lego blocks from an erector set. The parts are so meaty and simple, how could you go wrong? The answer has many layers and even more misconceptions."..........

[jr59]

Benelli Super 90 for me!

I don't hunt or shoot for sport.

For me it's just home protection!

[cincytri]

I'm not trying to get into another big debate about guns like I did on ST...but really, what if? What if the guys coming into your home have body armor? Likely not an issue for the majority of burglaries, but a real-deal home invasion implies a different mindset for the bad guys. Those guys frequently take time to conduct surveillance, rehearsals, and equip themselves differently.

Some HD applications could call for an M4 type rifle. Longer shots down a hallway come to mind.

I get what you are saying and actually picked a shotgun as the primary defensive weapon for my home. Retreat and protect is likely the right choice for most if escape is not realistic.

My recommendation for a new shooter is always to try out several firearms before buying. When trying them out, consider your home and how that weapon would perform in your environment with your strengths and limitations. Pick one and then train. Regularly. Secure your guns when not attended.

[William]

I'm not trying to get into another big debate about guns like I did on ST...but really, what if? What if the guys coming into your home have body armor? Likely not an issue for the majority of burglaries, but a real-deal home invasion implies a different mindset for the bad guys. Those guys frequently take time to conduct surveillance, rehearsals, and equip themselves differently.

Some HD applications could call for an M4 type rifle. Longer shots down a hallway come to mind.

I get what you are saying and actually picked a shotgun as the primary defensive weapon for my home. Retreat and protect is likely the right choice for most if escape is not realistic.

My recommendation for a new shooter is always to try out several firearms before buying. When trying them out, consider your home and how that weapon would perform in your environment with your strengths and limitations. Pick one and then train. Regularly. Secure your guns when not attended.


What if a perp drove a Sherman Tank through the back door? ;) Ok, I understand what you are getting at. The best you can do is pick a weapon and ammo that covers the best percentage of likely scenarios and takes into consideration possible collateral damage from missed shots (family and neighbors).

I absolutely agree on trying out, and training with after the choice is made.




William

[cincytri]

William-
If a Sherman tank drives through your back door, then I assume that you did not spend much time burglar-proofing the exterior of your home. I would think that a mined trench would be the obvious first line of defense!!

[William]

William-
If a Sherman tank drives through your back door, then I assume that you did not spend much time burglar-proofing the exterior of your home. I would think that a mined trench would be the obvious first line of defense!!


:D



William

[johnnymossville]

entertaining thread this has become. LOL

[gearguywb]

William-
If a Sherman tank drives through your back door, then I assume that you did not spend much time burglar-proofing the exterior of your home. I would think that a mined trench would be the obvious first line of defense!!

Call in the A-10's that are on standby for a danger close run.

[sg8357]

entertaining thread this has become. LOL

If you live in Afghanistan or Utah there is lot good info here,
you never know when NATO or the ATF will blow down your door.

Which do you prefer for home defence doors, Pella w/Chobham
or the Stickley w/IMI reactive armour ?

[gdw]

I'll give you my bike when you take it from my cold, dead hands..... :banana:

[Dekonick]

Very nice collection but I'm surprised that as an upstate New Yorker you don't have a Parker stashed away.

My father in law has a couple Parkers... nice guns.

[Dekonick]

I'll give you my bike when you take it from my cold, dead hands..... :banana:

QUOTE OF THE DECADE! :beer: :hello: :banana:

[johnnymossville]

I'm surprised nobody has invested in unmanned drones. It's the Future!

[FlashUNC]

I know if someone goes through the time, effort and expense of planning to invade my home with the latest in night vision equipment, body armor, and weeks of surveillance, they're totally going to want all my mid-level, used bike equipment.

[Jeff N.]

I have two, a Ruger Red Label O/U 12 ga, 28" bbls ( accepts 3" Magnum sheels) and a Remington 870 Magnum pump with 30" tube. Both have interchangable choke tubes. You can switch to a shorter bbl on the 870, making it mor versitle for home defense, if you feel the need, but my 4" Smitty-Wes model 66 revolver fills that roll pretty much. To answer your OP: 12 Ga. for sure, full stock with pistol grip, open sights. Jeff N.

[netanimic]

I'm surprised nobody has invested in unmanned drones. It's the Future!

No doubt soon wars will be carried out by machine to avoid human casualties.

[rounder]

I was flipping through and was waiting for this to become a campy v. shimano thread. I go to the hunting and fishing store at l.l.bean about once per year because everything there looks so great. The shotgun displays are exotic, same for the flyrod displays upstairs. After seeing them, i feel that lots of people know what they like and like what they like. Makes me appreciate the act that there is nothing dumb about liking bikes.

[Jeff N.]

I was flipping through and was waiting for this to become a campy v. shimano thread. I go to the hunting and fishing store at l.l.bean about once per year because everything there looks so great. The shotgun displays are exotic, same for the flyrod displays upstairs. After seeing them, i feel that lots of people know what they like and like what they like. Makes me appreciate the act that there is nothing dumb about liking bikes.
I've often entertained the idea of opening a store when I retire: "Jeff's Bike'n'Gun" TOTL bikes on one side of the shop, firearms on the other. Think it'd fly? It'dbe tough in California, that's for certain. Jeff N.

[William]

I've often entertained the idea of opening a store when I retire: "Jeff's Bike'n'Gun" TOTL bikes on one side of the shop, firearms on the other. Think it'd fly? It'dbe tough in California, that's for certain. Jeff N.

There is a place near by that is a repair shop on one side for modern and vintage cars, and the other side is a gun shop. Makes waiting for your car a whole lot more interesting. :cool:

http://www.kanemotorcar.com/
http://mpageswebs.com/Kanegun/Guns.htm




William

[toaster]

There is a place near by that is a repair shop on one side for modern and vintage cars, and the other side is a gun shop. Makes waiting for your car a whole lot more interesting. :cool:

http://www.kanemotorcar.com/
http://mpageswebs.com/Kanegun/Guns.htm




William

When I bought my first automatic pistol it was at a place called Guns and Roses and they were a gun shop and florist. I kid you not!

[Kontact]

I don't think there are many topics as associated with misinformation than firearms. A few points:

All guns need to be aimed, including shotguns. Even cylinder bore shotguns won't make a pattern much larger than the bore at house ranges.

All guns are dangerous, all guns can be useful for defense. A .22 semi-auto rifle or target pistol are some of the most useful firearms, and exceptionally dangerous to an attacker. Shooting a .22 well is always better than a shotgun, rifle or magnum pistol fired poorly.

Statistics on this topic are heavily manipulated. Saying that the existance of more guns leads to more accidents is like saying that deserts avoid drowning. The fact is that there are many more firearms in homes than anyone can track. They kill much fewer people than cars, cigarettes, alcohol, prime rib, household poisons. In fact, yearly gun death accidents are nearly identical to cycling deaths.


When I lived in a place that made a home defense weapon appealing, I preferred a handgun. It was easier to hide and secure, easier to maneuver and keep control of and much less conspicuous for answering the door when you don't know if the person knocking is a criminal or a neighbor.

However, the sound of a pump shotgun makes an impression. The question is whether a home invader is going to give you the kind of warning necessary to go get a long gun. For shotguns, a basic Mossberg is good enough for military use and pretty cheap.

Whatever firearm you choose, your ability to load, unload, remove the safety and fire it under stress is going to make the difference, not the kind of gun.


Among people who study shooting legal cases, "wounding" is generally not to the benefit of the shooter, both long and short term.

[Dekonick]

http://www.keepshooting.com/12-gauge-ballistic-bean-bag-round.html

[alancw3]

I've often entertained the idea of opening a store when I retire: "Jeff's Bike'n'Gun" TOTL bikes on one side of the shop, firearms on the other. Think it'd fly? It'dbe tough in California, that's for certain. Jeff N.


we could be partners! we just better have plenty of other money to live on. bikes and guns, yeah i have dreamed of that combination.

[William]

When I bought my first automatic pistol it was at a place called Guns and Roses and they were a gun shop and florist. I kid you not!


I want to party with those folks!! :cool: That would be a great place to take Mrs. William on our Anniversary. She's into firearms as well! :banana:





William

[William]

I know this isn't a shotgun, but it does use .410 ga 2.5" shotshells and/or .45 Colt ammunition. I was checking out the Taurus Judge Public Defender small frame revolver that uses either or both mixed ammo. They seem to be marketing it as a big gun in a small package...a mini shotgun if you will.

Any thoughts on these small frame revolvers?

http://www.greatsataninc.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/judge.jpg




William

[Acotts]

Some of the comments reminded me of what my grandpa told me he and his brother used to do "for fun". They would get a distance away from each other, and shoot each other in the back with shotguns, coming a bit closer after each exchange, until one said uncle. They never did demonstrate it for me, so it could have been a lie.


That sounds like one of the worst ideas ever, lol. :beer:

[Jeff N.]

I know this isn't a shotgun, but it does use .410 ga 2.5" shotshells and/or .45 Colt ammunition. I was checking out the Taurus Judge Public Defender small frame revolver that uses either or both mixed ammo. They seem to be marketing it as a big gun in a small package...a mini shotgun if you will.

Any thoughts on these small frame revolvers?

http://www.greatsataninc.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/judge.jpg




WilliamLotsa power in a small package. That's the idea. I own an American Derringer chambered in .44 Magnum ( painful recoil, like holding a stick of dynamite!) and another in .223 Remington. Can't hit anything beyond 15 feet or so, but... Jeff N.

[Ozz]

I know this isn't a shotgun, but it does use .410 ga 2.5" shotshells and/or .45 Colt ammunition. I was checking out the Taurus Judge Public Defender small frame revolver that uses either or both mixed ammo. They seem to be marketing it as a big gun in a small package...a mini shotgun if you will.

Any thoughts on these small frame revolvers?


William
I'm going to say it is like a hybrid bike....it does a lot of things, but none of them very well.

:beer:

[William]

I'm going to say it is like a hybrid bike....it does a lot of things, but none of them very well.

:beer:

Yeah, kind of my feeling as well. Marketed as a CQ pocket/HD gun.





William

[jr59]

It's perfect for what it is.

A get away type gun.
It allows me to get away from whatever is threating my well being!

Outside of 3 feet, it's not the gun that I would pick.
Very close range, yep!

[William]

It's perfect for what it is.

A get away type gun.
It allows me to get away from whatever is threating my well being!

Outside of 3 feet, it's not the gun that I would pick.
Very close range, yep!


Like real close....!

[amgc36]

For those considering getting a firearm for home defense and don't have prior professional training (military, LE etc.), I'd seriously consider reading up on both the realistic scenarios involved in their deployment in the home as well as the guaranteed legal repercussions if you discharge a weapon and especially if someone is injured (your target, whether assailant or mistaken identity, a bystander, your child, a friend, yourself by your own weapon).

We often imagine only the worst case scenarios - I need a gun to protect my family from death or mayhem and will stand my ground. But in the shades of gray a lot of other thing can happen - better to reflect on these things in advance. Recall that the principle of self-defense is not hard to understand but the manner of implementation.

Finally, as others have said, if you get a gun, please practice and use safe handling and storage at all times. Unlike most other potential causes of death (traffic accident, cancer, etc.), a knee-jerk, muscle twitch reaction really is the difference between smiles and tears.

[William]

Absolutely. When one makes the decision to arm themselves be it firearms, edged weapons, impact weapons, or open hand, they need to take on the responsibility of training, safety, and understand the possible ramifications of their use.





William

[Dekonick]

Absolutely. When one makes the decision to arm themselves be it firearms, edged weapons, impact weapons, or open hand, they need to take on the responsibility of training, safety, and understand the possible ramifications of their use.





William

Absolutely. And for those who think a pistol is a good home defense weapon, take it from a sniper friend of mine. He can shoot the dust off of a flies wings... well I exaggerate a bit... but he is one hell of a shot with a long arm. He can't hit crap with a pistol...

[Chad Engle]

Just bought a new duck gun. Benelli SBE II, can't wait to get it out. Passed my Remington 11-87 to my son. Also own an 870. Two 22 rifles, one antique single shot and one Ruger 10-22. One handgun, Beretta, 22. Very short barrel, very difficult to hit anything. Neat to look at I guess. I inherited it from my Dad. He kept it in the nightstand. My Mother's first request when Dad died was to please get that gun out of the house. It definitely did not make her sleep any better having it in her bedroom.

All my guns are in a Stackon locker in the basement. None are intended for home defense. If my neighborhood ever becomes a place I feel I need to lock and load to protect myself, I think I'll move.

On the other hand I have considered taking the concealed carry class as I travel a lot and have thought it would be nice to have available if needed.

I carried a gun every day for a year in Iraq, really don't like the idea of doing again. A lot of responsibility. My dumb arse would probably leave it in a hotel or something like that.

[William]

Came across these the other day and I was reminded of some of the over-penetration discussion earlier in the thread.

Kinetic energy impact munitions
http://www.lightfieldlesslethal.com/law.html

Rubber slugs and Super Stars (Koosh ball on steroids) for 12ga. for the general public. These could still put a hole in your target but not go through multiple interior walls. They aren't "Non-lethal", just less lethal then conventional ammo.

http://www.policeone.com/policeone/data/LfieldSuperStarLG.jpg

http://www.policeone.com/policeone/data/LightfieldLessLethalRubSlug.jpg




William

[johnnymossville]

Came across these the other day and I was reminded of some of the over-penetration discussion earlier in the thread....

http://www.policeone.com/policeone/data/LfieldSuperStarLG.jpg

http://www.policeone.com/policeone/data/LightfieldLessLethalRubSlug.jpg




William

they look like some kinda fetish toys. glow in the dark by any chance?

[William]

they look like some kinda fetish toys. glow in the dark by any chance?

Your mind is in the gutter. :no:







William (Never mind the thought occurred to me as well. :D )

[Ozz]

Came across these the other day and I was reminded of some of the over-penetration discussion earlier in the thread.

Kinetic energy impact munitions
http://www.lightfieldlesslethal.com/law.html

Rubber slugs and Super Stars (Koosh ball on steroids) for 12ga. for the general public. These could still put a hole in your target but not go through multiple interior walls. They aren't "Non-lethal", just less lethal then conventional ammo.


William
Here you go:

Frangible Ammo (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/frangible.htm)

Apparently, you can get it at Cabela's (http://www.cabelas.com/handgun-ammunition-fiocchi-45-acp-frangible-ammo-2.shtml)

:beer:

[Acotts]

The big issue I have with the lax gun laws in the U.S. (and its important to note that I own a Remington 7600 and used to own a SS P250) is that it has demolished what could have been a totally rad non-lethal arms industry.

Imagine, instead of putting some led in a perp, you can blast him mulitple times with deafening directional sound waves as well as flash bang that would accompany some sort of bean bag/capacitor.

I am talking the thunderclap of Zues...

Perhaps add some sort of ultra nauseous fumes as well. I mean, just totally overwhelm the senses...use fear and confusion instead of physics as the primary weapon.

And you could blast the perp like 6 or 7 times. Perhaps each sonic sack provides its own horror. Some might be more flash bangs, but others could inject a healthy dose of 5meoDMT and give the guy a 15 minute ride through hell.

There are all sorts of cool things we could be doing instead of shooting folks. But how can my Sonic Fart Sack Launcher TM, compete with a SS P 220 for 350 bucks?

I dunno, I just think its a missed opportunity for some real awesomeness.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoSHmVkjmuA

[Jeff N.]

The big issue I have with the lax gun laws in the U.S. (and its important to note that I own a Remington 7600 and used to own a SS P250) is that it has demolished what could have been a totally rad non-lethal arms industry.

Imagine, instead of putting some led in a perp, you can blast him mulitple times with deafening directional sound waves as well as flash bang that would accompany some sort of bean bag/capacitor.

I am talking the thunderclap of Zues...

Perhaps add some sort of ultra nauseous fumes as well. I mean, just totally overwhelm the senses...use fear and confusion instead of physics as the primary weapon.

And you could blast the perp like 6 or 7 times. Perhaps each sonic sack provides its own horror. Some might be more flash bangs, but others could inject a healthy dose of 5meoDMT and give the guy a 15 minute ride through hell.

There are all sorts of cool things we could be doing instead of shooting folks. But how can my Sonic Fart Sack Launcher TM, compete with a SS P 220 for 350 bucks?

I dunno, I just think its a missed opportunity for some real awesomeness.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoSHmVkjmuABut I think it's complicated by the fact that some perps...well...need PERMANENT stopping. Jeff N.

[Acotts]

I bet my Fart Sacks TM, will be a more permanent deterrent than our current legal system.

And if you really want to kill the person...one will have plenty of opportunity to relish in ones homicidal appetites once the perp is incapacitated if thats what one wants.

[gdw]

So I'm supposed to throw a stun granade at the guy coming up the stairs, deafen him with directional sound waves, and then make him sick with nauseous gases......cool, do the police get to waterboard him after the arrest to learn the names of his accomplices? :banana:

[Acotts]

So I'm supposed to throw a stun granade at the guy coming up the stairs, deafen him with directional sound waves, and then make him sick with nauseous gases......cool, do the police get to waterboard him after the arrest to learn the names of his accomplices? :banana:

First, my idea is an "all in one" so take out the "firsts and thens" It'll happen all at once and hopefully multiple times.

Its better than the alternative...spraying bullets from an AR 15 in a household of 2.1 kids and a lazy chocolate lab.

[gdw]

"Its better than the alternative...spraying bullets from an AR 15 in a household of 2.1 kids and a lazy chocolate lab."

I'll stick to my old Sherwood PMP and let the dogs munch his ankles.

[jmoore]

To answer the question in the original post, if I had not have lost all my guns in a freak canoeing accident, I'd say that I own more guns than bikes. Way more. How someone could own only one gun is beyond me. There are different hunting and shooting situations that call for different firearms.

As for shotguns, I have a preference for Beretta semi-auto's for wingshooting and clays. You need different calibers and configurations for different birds and hunting conditions. Rem870's are excellent dedicated turkey guns. As are Mossberg 500's. All shotguns wear fiber optic rib sights.

I wouldn't mind a DeHaan SGr Deluxe O/U in 20ga as a future anniversary present if someone could tell my wife.

If you would like to talk about deer rifles and/or handguns, that's a whole other thread.