Racing at high RPM's verus Low RM's

[cnighbor1]

My freind and I are discussing Racing at high RPM's verus Low RM's
''Bob It is funny when I started using computers on my bike it was thought best to ride in high 90rpm's Which I did using cadence readings. I now have a very good high rpms riding style but not low rpm high power. Mike Walden can be created with my smooth riding style
than in late 80's early nineties mid 80 rpm's was the norm in tour de France Lots of power and lower rpm's
now it is back to 90's rpm after Lance won.
I felt those high 90's didn't allow me to develop muscle needed when any rpm would have helped me on long climbs
Charles''
----- Original Message -----
''From: Robert Freeman
To: Charles F Nighbor
Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2011 5:31 AM
Subject: Vuelta


Man, what a monster climb! 18% toward the top. And those guys do it at such a high cadence. I guess if nothing else, we can thank Lance for starting that.

Robert D Freeman North Bend, WA ''

What are your thoughts on RPM's Low verus High!
Of course atsome point you run out of gears to spin.
In Spain Gran tour this year with grade at 25% Como rode 34T /32T and got the time advantage he needed to lead and now win. I wonder what his RM's were at that Point.
Charles

[Fixed]

depends on your strength heart or legs and the length of the climb imho
i say practice both to become a better climber . i love the way p. gilbert climbs/sprints but he is not the best in a long mt. climb .
cheers

[echappist]

it's imprudent for one pro to copy the optimal cadence range of another pro. It even less prudent for us to copy them. Everybody had a different optimal cadence range that depend on a whole slew of factors, much of it having to do with composition of muscle fibers. A power meter allows one to see how one pedals (force vs pedal velocity) and make decision based off of that.

FWIW, i climb the best between rpm of 70-85. Anything higher i lose power.

[ergott]

My power band is 95-115rpm. I can grind away when needed, but I feel better up there.

When I'm out of the saddle I spin between 60-75rpm.

I think it's good to be comfortable with more than one style of spinning so you can adapt to conditions.

[saab2000]

Spinning saves your legs and your power for later in an event. If you use your power too early it's gone and it won't come back.

Spin, baby, spin.

[shankldu]

the best way to train is, using a mixed bag of every thing one day low next day high this will made you a more well rounded cyclist,able to adapt to any situation.

[AngryScientist]

I think it's good to be comfortable with more than one style of spinning so you can adapt to conditions.

+1 to this.

[John H.]

I agree with this- you need to do both low cadence and higher cadence work.
Many do not like the high cadence work because if you are an inefficiant peddler you will go slower.
It takes time to develop cadence.
Many advantages to developing the ability to pedal with good cadence.
You go faster because you don't run out of rpms on all the little ups and downs- big gear riders tend to get caught in big gears.
You develop proper pedaling technique with high cadence-you don't really get that from low cadence.
Like Saab said- you save your muscular strength for when you need it.
You develop higher cardiovascular system because high cadence depends more on cardiovascular than low cadence.
Look at the pro peloton- they all pedal pretty high- even the grinders. You want to look at how the best guys apply technique. Just like in golf- want to drive like Tiger Woods or some hack at the driving range who muscles the sh*t out of the ball.

the best way to train is, using a mixed bag of every thing one day low next day high this will made you a more well rounded cyclist,able to adapt to any situation.

[echappist]

Spinning saves your legs and your power for later in an event. If you use your power too early it's gone and it won't come back.

Spin, baby, spin.
As they say, cadence is a red herring. Your power isn't gone b/c you ground your way up a hill, your power is gone because you exceeded your threshold power and burned up your matches.

Also, guess what type of cyclists are really good at spinning but don't have much aerobic capacity?



Look at the pro peloton- they all pedal pretty high- even the grinders. You want to look at how the best guys apply technique. Just like in golf- want to drive like Tiger Woods or some hack at the driving range who muscles the sh*t out of the ball.
Ivan Basso & Evans are known to grind their way up hills.

Also, it's pretty foolish to compare what you do to what pros do. A pro can put out 400W at 70kg for an hour. I can put out 400W at 70kg for about 2-3 minutes.

[John H.]

It is a red herring in that preferred cadence differs from person to person.
But there is no denying that improving your cadence range will help you as a rider.
It is likely that Cobo will win the vuelta- a large reason was that he chose the smallest gear of all the front runners on the climb where he took the lead- he kept cadence up in the steeper parts where the other guys were grinding.

As they say, cadence is a red herring. Your power isn't gone b/c you ground your way up a hill, your power is gone because you exceeded your threshold power and burned up your matches.

Also, guess what type of cyclists are really good at spinning but don't have much aerobic capacity?

[echappist]

]It is a red herring in that preferred cadence differs from person to person.[/B]
But there is no denying that improving your cadence range will help you as a rider.
It is likely that Cobo will win the vuelta- a large reason was that he chose the smallest gear of all the front runners on the climb where he took the lead- he kept cadence up in the steeper parts where the other guys were grinding.
I know this is not the exercise physiology forum, but you obviously know nothing about the issue.

read this first (http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articles/cycling/quadrant-analysis.aspx)

Your example of Cobo means nothing. It could very well be that all the others are out of their powerbands

PS, food for thought:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19675486

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21479957

PPS, i once thought high cadence = good. That's obviously wrong. Producing high power = good, and having a large power band of high power = better, but it's fallacy to think the center and range of the powerband is same for everyone.

PPPS. More food for thought

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19417224

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19430807

[John H.]

I never said high cadence is best- I said improving your range will help.
I did say that the best seem to also have the best cadence- take that however you want.

I know this is not the exercise physiology forum, but you obviously know nothing about the issue.

read this first (http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articles/cycling/quadrant-analysis.aspx)

Your example of Cobo means nothing. It could very well be that all the others are out of their powerbands

PS, food for thought:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19675486

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21479957

PPS, i once thought high cadence = good. That's obviously wrong. Producing high power = good, and having a large power band of high power = better, but it's fallacy to think the center and range of the powerband is same for everyone.

PPPS. More food for thought

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19417224

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19430807

[saab2000]

As they say, cadence is a red herring. Your power isn't gone b/c you ground your way up a hill, your power is gone because you exceeded your threshold power and burned up your matches.

Also, guess what type of cyclists are really good at spinning but don't have much aerobic capacity?



I know what you mean, but I know from my own experience that riding in a lower gear than I might naturally do has been good for me when I was racing and more recently now that I am not racing anymore.

This summer I did two monstrous rides with some friends (150 or so miles) and both happened on single speeds (for a number of reasons) with a 42x16 gear, pretty low. But there were no real concessions given to me because I was on the single speed so I had to spin. There were times when we were in excess of 25 mph and it got uncomfortable. But I didn't cramp and I did have some strength left at the end.

Years ago in a 100 mile race a buddy of mine knew I was in good shape and kept hounding me to spin and save my energy. Sure enough, at the 80 mile point I had the power when I needed it. No aching or burning.

I'm a believer in spinning but don't do it naturally.

But I know what you mean about using the bigger gears too. Gotta use both ultimately.

[echappist]

I never said high cadence is best- I said improving your range will help.
I did say that the best seem to also have the best cadence- take that however you want.
I think i know what you mean, but do you?

Best cadence is the cadence that allows you to put out the most power, but i don't think that's what you mean. You are suggesting high cadence. In which case, allow me to retort

Here are Chris Horner's power files in the 2011 TOC (http://www.srm.de/index.php/us/srm-blog/road/639-chris-horners-srm-daten-tour-of-california-2011) . Note the climb of Mt. Hamilton, Sierra Road, and Mt. Baldy. Average cadence in the 70's.

Analysis of Rory Sutherland's 2011 ToC Stage 4 (http://home.trainingpeaks.com/races/unitedhealthcare-pro-cycling-team/2011-amgen-tour-of-california/stage-4-livermore---san-jose---1316km.aspx). Cadence in the mid 80's.

Do you see why cadence for cadence's sake doesn't matter? Horner put out 6.78w/kg in 17 minutes and Sutherland put out 6.1w/kg in 18. Those are monstrous numbers, and both had their own preferred cadence, up the same damned road no less.

[echappist]

I know what you mean, but I know from my own experience that riding in a lower gear than I might naturally do has been good for me when I was racing and more recently now that I am not racing anymore.

This summer I did two monstrous rides with some friends (150 or so miles) and both happened on single speeds (for a number of reasons) with a 42x16 gear, pretty low. But there were no real concessions given to me because I was on the single speed so I had to spin. There were times when we were in excess of 25 mph and it got uncomfortable. But I didn't cramp and I did have some strength left at the end.

Years ago in a 100 mile race a buddy of mine knew I was in good shape and kept hounding me to spin and save my energy. Sure enough, at the 80 mile point I had the power when I needed it. No aching or burning.

I'm a believer in spinning but don't do it naturally.

But I know what you mean about using the bigger gears too. Gotta use both ultimately.
+1
That's the sane way of finding out what works and what doesn't. Just b/c the Texan can go up the Cols of TdF at 95rpm doesn't mean the rest of us should. Trial and error dictates what works, not some fluff piece in Bicycling magazine.

[Charles M]

Have your muscles Biopsied...

That will end the "debate" outright as your percentage of fast versus slow twitch fibers will dictate your personal sweet spot.

[saab2000]

In addition to trial and error, I would advocate some scientific (or semi-scientific) work with a watt meter.

I don't have one so I go by trial and error but my buddies with them have found out some surprising things with regards to RPMs and power output when using the Power Taps.

Cool technology. I just don't use it.

[echappist]

Have your muscles Biopsied...

That will end the "debate" outright as your percentage of fast versus slow twitch fibers will dictate your personal sweet spot.
But that's a snapshot of your muscle composition. One benefit of loads of tempo and threshold work is that the type IIB fast twitch muscles converts into type IIa fast twitch muscles. While the latter doesn't have as much endurance as type I slow twitch muscles, it'll work for 30minutes, which is pretty huge in cycling as few efforts in cycling requires you to hit it hard for more than 30 minutes at a time.

[cnighbor1]

''Cadence is an interesting thing. Most people would have a genetic predisposition to a certain cadence. Also as we get older our muscle innervation moves more towards the slower twitch end of the fibre continuum.


Different resistances will naturally find different cadences (i.e. slower when we climb). The trick is to find the best for you, regardless of trends. Climbing in or out of the saddle is also a personal thing, and would also relate to the distribution of efficiencies between Hamstrings/glutes versus quads. Dropping the gear to second (or even third) rather than first, when out of the saddle helps.


At the end of the day, cadence meters can be great tools or they can confuse if you are trying to follow a trend, as opposed to 'listening' to your legs...


Clive in Oz.''

[FlashUNC]

I generally like to spin, but tend to turn into Jan Ullrich on long climbs.

Different strokes for different folks.

[toaster]

High rpm's demand lots of oxygen. If you can spin a high cadence and maintain a good respiratory rate without redlining then you are either a low mass rider or have great fitness or both.

For many of the mere mortals slowing down cadence or pushing a bigger gear keeps us from blowing up.

On flat courses, high cadence and good power come from neuromuscular efficiency and muscular endurance. On hills, high cadence is usually cardiovascular power. IMHO.

[John H.]

Did you watch the footage of this stage- horner actually stood most of the climb so 70's is really not that low for standing.
Try doing that up one of the climbs in the tour, giro or vuelta and let me know how it works?
I agree with you that the cadence needs to translate into power (either higher power or conservation of power) for it to pay off.
It does pay off though.
Most people that can't spin a light gear don't like this prescription. It is slow medicine- like changing diet instead of taking diabetes medication.

I think i know what you mean, but do you?

Best cadence is the cadence that allows you to put out the most power, but i don't think that's what you mean. You are suggesting high cadence. In which case, allow me to retort

Here are Chris Horner's power files in the 2011 TOC (http://www.srm.de/index.php/us/srm-blog/road/639-chris-horners-srm-daten-tour-of-california-2011) . Note the climb of Mt. Hamilton, Sierra Road, and Mt. Baldy. Average cadence in the 70's.

Analysis of Rory Sutherland's 2011 ToC Stage 4 (http://home.trainingpeaks.com/races/unitedhealthcare-pro-cycling-team/2011-amgen-tour-of-california/stage-4-livermore---san-jose---1316km.aspx). Cadence in the mid 80's.

Do you see why cadence for cadence's sake doesn't matter? Horner put out 6.78w/kg in 17 minutes and Sutherland put out 6.1w/kg in 18. Those are monstrous numbers, and both had their own preferred cadence, up the same damned road no less.

[TAW]

High rpm's demand lots of oxygen. If you can spin a high cadence and maintain a good respiratory rate without redlining then you are either a low mass rider or have great fitness or both.

For many of the mere mortals slowing down cadence or pushing a bigger gear keeps us from blowing up.

On flat courses, high cadence and good power come from neuromuscular efficiency and muscular endurance. On hills, high cadence is usually cardiovascular power. IMHO.

This characterizes my own riding experience, especially as I get older. Spinning up a climb may save my legs, but my heart rate goes through the roof too early.

[John H.]

I said it was slow medicine- you have to ride the cadence to develop the cardiovascular system.
You can't just decide to ride smaller gears than you did yesterday.
A good way to do this would be 2 different hill days. One of the days you focus on strength, the other day you focus on cadence.
Realize that power may be lower on the cadence day until you get fitter and more efficient.

[echappist]

Did you watch the footage of this stage- horner actually stood most of the climb so 70's is really not that low for standing.
Try doing that up one of the climbs in the tour, giro or vuelta and let me know how it works?

You are admitting the fact that he didn't spin up the hill, yes? In case you aren't familiar with the underlying physiology, spinning means that the muscles are producing relatively low force and power is compensated by the frequency of contraction (cadence). Holding power constant, standing on the pedals makes it easier to apply more force on the pedal at the cost of a lower cadence. In other words, not spinning.

Also, as mentioned before, Basso & Evans are known to be grinders (just watch how often Evans gets out of the saddle). I wonder how that worked out for both of them :rolleyes:

FWIW, most hills that people encounter racing as amateurs (and since that's apparently the crowd to whom you are trying to sell your snake oil) rarely last longer than 30 minutes, i think this is highly relevant as opposed to some hour long HC climbs that aren't included in amateur races.
I said it was slow medicine- you have to ride the cadence to develop the cardiovascular system.
You can't just decide to ride smaller gears than you did yesterday.
A good way to do this would be 2 different hill days. One of the days you focus on strength, the other day you focus on cadence.
Realize that power may be lower on the cadence day until you get fitter and more efficient.
prescribed by a quack who knows nothing about exercise physiology (and probably didn't bother to read the abstract of the papers to which i linked). Once again, the real reason people run out of steam on climbs is going at a pace above their threshold power, not low cadence. Extreme low cadence might put someone below optimal power band, thus making it difficult to climb, but that power band is different for everyone.

The very same reason you don't mold a track sprinter and tell him he'll be a GC contender, you don't tell someone to change his natural cadence just because some Texan said it won him a few Tours. In earlier ages, people have won with longer cranks and lower cadence,

Also, please define efficient. By all measures (kcal consumed vs joules produced), lower cadence is more efficient than higher cadence.

[Fixed]

after 40 years of riding i still know very little about how to ride my bike.
so i am going out to ride
cheers

[echappist]

PS. I now wonder if you even bothered to look at Horner's SRM files. Blue line is cadence, let me know for what percent of time his cadence was actually > 80 even with all those out of saddle efforts

http://www.srm.de/images/stories/eventblog/california_2011/toc%202011%20stage%204%20mt%20hamilton%20horner.gi f

PPS. Jeremy Roy's SRM files from the Luz-Ardiden Stage (http://www.srm.de/index.php/us/srm-blog/tour-de-france/653-tdf-2011-12-etappen-analyse-srm-daten-tourmalet-zeits-roy-soerensen) and the subsequent Col d'Aubisque stage (http://www.srm.de/index.php/us/srm-blog/tour-de-france/654-tdf-2011-13-etappen-analyse-srm-daten-tourmalet-roy) on which he got caught by Thor. In the former, he was the first up the Col du Tourmalet.

[lhuerta]

...now it is back to 90's rpm after Lance won..... I guess if nothing else, we can thank Lance for starting that.


Lets be really clear, Lance did not invent nor did he start the trend of high cadence racing. He was simply a rider who won a lot or tours and happened to have a high cadence riding style
Lou