Why no French stars in TdF?

[zeroking17]

Given that French riders nowadays seem dependent on their guests' good manners in order to win a Tour stage, I'm wondering why there hasn't been a real GC contender from France for years?

Have the best French atheletes gone into sports other than cycling?
Have the development programs whithered away? Not enough funding?
Are the French doping controls more effective?
Do French cyclists ride on the tops during a sprint?
Is it just a cyclical thing, with France currently in a "down" phase?
Have non-French riders gotten stronger and more numerous?
Has a permanent malaise descended on French cyclists?

Can anyone who knows the French scene shed any light on why there's been such an extended drought for French riders in the Tour?

[dirtdigger88]

look at WW1 and WW2- the French give up too quickly. . . . :p


sorry- enough French bashing- I couldnt help it

Jason

[William]

French fit??? :confused:



William ;)

[JohnS]

How many Frenchmen does it take to defend Paris from the Germans? No one knows, its never been done!
Dirtman, you started it!

[dirtdigger88]

I think it funny that on the day the tour started- the History Channel did a whole day of the biggest blunders of WW2- They sure talked about the French alot

Jason

[JohnS]

The only part of Le Armee that can fight is the Foreign Legion and that's because it's foreigners and disguised Frenchmen.

[Dr. Doofus]

same reason no belgian or dutchman has won in a long while...bigger talent pool in "non-traditional" cycling nations

current GC:

1 Lance Armstrong (USA) Discovery Channel
2 Michael Rasmussen (Den) Rabobank 0.38
3 Christophe Moreau (Fra) Credit Agricole 2.34
4 Ivan Basso (Ita) Team CSC 2.40
5 Alejandro Valverde (Spa) Illes Balears-Caisse d'Epargne 3.16
6 Santiago Botero (Col) Phonak Hearing Systems 3.48
7 Levi Leipheimer (USA) Gerolsteiner 3.58
8 Francisco Mancebo (Spa) Illes Balears-Caisse d'Epargne 4.00
9 Jan Ullrich (Ger) T-Mobile Team 4.02
10 Andreas Klöden (Ger) T-Mobile Team 4.16
11 Floyd Landis (USA) Phonak Hearing Systems
12 Alexandre Vinokourov (Kaz) T-Mobile Team 4.47
13 Jörg Jaksche (Ger) Liberty Seguros-Würth 5.33
14 Cadel Evans (Aus) Davitamon-Lotto 5.55
15 Yaroslav Popovych (Ukr) Discovery Channel 6.25
16 Andrei Kashechkin (Kaz) Credit Agricole 6.32
17 Bobby Julich (USA) Team CSC 6.37
18 Carlos Sastre (Spa) Team CSC
19 Sandy Casar (Fra) Française Des Jeux 7.41
20 Eddy Mazzoleni (Ita) Lampre-Caffita 8.46


now the "its 1980 all over again" version:

1 Michael Rasmussen (Den) Rabobank
2 Christophe Moreau (Fra) Credit Agricole
3 Ivan Basso (Ita) Team CSC
4 Alejandro Valverde (Spa) Illes Balears-Caisse d'Epargne
5 Francisco Mancebo (Spa) Illes Balears-Caisse d'Epargne
6 Carlos Sastre (Spa) Team CSC
7 Sandy Casar (Fra) Française Des Jeux
8 Eddy Mazzoleni (Ita) Lampre-Caffita
9 Haimar Zubeldia (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi
10 Georg Totschnig (Aut) Gerolsteiner
11 Giuseppe Guerini (Ita) T-Mobile Team
12 Jose Azevedo (Por) Discovery Channel
13 Leonardo Piepoli (Ita) Saunier Duval-Prodir
14 Stefano Garzelli (Ita) Liquigas-Bianchi
15 Paolo Savoldelli (Ita) Discovery Channel
16 Oscar Pereiro Sio (Spa) Phonak Hearing Systems
17 Alberto Contador (Spa) Liberty Seguros-Würth
18 Stéphane Goubert (Fra) Ag2r-Prevoyance
19 Xabier Zandio (Spa) Illes Balears-Caisse d'Epargne
20 Oscar Sevilla (Spa) T-Mobile Team

In the no-english speakers, no ex-soviet blockers, no-columbians, only traditional cycling nations bizzaro world, moreau is on his way to a second tour win....

bigger badder talent pool

[Fixed]

(A)It might be that the French are to nice.(B)100 years ago they were the center of modern thought.(C)Don't they have a rider in 3rd place now?(D)I think the good doc. has it right.Cheers

[Kirk Pacenti]

the French National bird is the Cockrel....(AKA Chicken)
Maybe that has something to do with it? ;)

[e-RICHIE]

many of the french are too tired from
a season spanning from feb-oct to peak
for this race.

[Tom]

If you actually knew your history you'd know that an entire f-ing generation of French males died in the trenches during World War I.

Bonus points: why was Franz Ferdinand shot?

[weisan]

The stars are there, just not shining bright enough to be noticed.

Lance&Co. transformed the TDF winning machinery....let just say the French is a bit "slow" in catchin' on...like everyone else.

[e-RICHIE]

[QUOTE=Tom]If you actually knew your history you'd know that an entire f-ing generation of French males died in the trenches during World War I.
QUOTE]


tdf feminin?

[e-RICHIE]

The stars are there, just not shining bright enough to be noticed.

Lance&Co. transformed the TDF winning machinery....let just say the French is a bit "slow" in catchin' on...like everyone else.


after the postal/disco era passes, i see the
next winners being the boys from brazil.

[weisan]

Bonus points: why was Franz Ferdinand shot?
Multiple Choice

B'cos he did sumthin' good
B'cos he did sumthin' bad
B'cos he did nuthin'

[chrisroph]

I dunno. French cops?

[pbbob]

If you actually knew your history you'd know that an entire f-ing generation of French males died in the trenches during World War I.

Bonus points: why was Franz Ferdinand shot?
driver went down the wrong street if I recall correctly.
currently reading to the last man spring 1918 by lyn mcdonald.
amateur student of ww1

[JohnS]

Franz Ferdinand is not dead. It's a band from Scotland.

[gdw]

Tom,
I don't think that the heavy French casaulties in the First World War are responsible for the poor performance of their riders in the the most recent tours. German casualties were higher and they have three riders in the top 20 this year.

[Ozz]

Bonus points: why was Franz Ferdinand shot?
Serbia wanted independence....still a messed up part of the world.

Easy on the French guys, it is Bastille Day!

Allons enfants de la patrie,
Le jour de gloire est arriv
Contre nous de la tyrannie
L'tendard sanglant est lev
Entendez vous dans les campagnes,
Mugir ces froces soldats?
Ils viennent jusque dans nos bras
Egorger nos fils, nos compagnes!

Aux armes, citoyens!
Formez vos bataillons!
Marchons! Marchons!
Qu'un sang impur
Abreuve nos sillons!

Amour sacr de la patrie,
Conduis, soutiens nos bras vengeurs!
Libert, Libert cherie,
Combats avec tes defenseurs!
Sous nos drapeaux, que la victoire
Accoure tes males accents!
Que tes ennemis expirants
Voient ton triomphe et notre gloire!

Nous entrerons dans la carrire
Quand nos ains n'y seront plus;
Nous y trouverons leur poussire
Et la trace de leurs vertus.
Bien moins jaloux de leur survivre
Que de partager leur cercueil,
Nous aurons le sublime orgueil
De les venger ou de les suivre!

[dirtdigger88]

Go children of the fatherland, The day of glory is arriv Against us of tyranny L'tendard bloody is lev Hear
you in the countries, Bellow these froces soldiers? They come even in our arm Egorger our son, our
companions!

To the weapons, citizens! Form your battalions! Let us walk! Let us walk! What an impure blood Waters our sillons!

Love sacr of the fatherland, Drives, supports our vindictive arm! Libert, Libert cherie, Fights with your
defenseurs! Under our flags, that the victory Rushes your evil accents! What your dying enemies See your
triumph and our glory!

We will enter into the carrire When our ains there will not be more; We there will find their poussire And the
track of their virtues. Well less jealous to survive for them That to divide their coffin, We will have the
sublimates pride to avenge them or to follow them!

its not complete- but its the best I could do with limited time on my universal translator

Jason

[slowgoing]

See gay/vague thread.

[Ozz]

...its not complete- but its the best I could do with limited time on my universal translator

Jason
Gotta admit, THIS is a national athem:

Arise children of the fatherland
The day of glory has arrived
Against us tyranny's
Bloody standard is raised
Listen to the sound in the fields
The howling of these fearsome soldiers
They are coming into our midst
To cut the throats of your sons and consorts

To arms citizens Form your battalions
March, march
Let impure blood
Water our furrows

What do they want this horde of slaves
Of traitors and conspiratorial kings?
For whom these vile chains
These long-prepared irons?
Frenchmen, for us, ah! What outrage
What methods must be taken?
It is us they dare plan
To return to the old slavery!

What! These foreign cohorts!
They would make laws in our courts!
What! These mercenary phalanxes
Would cut down our warrior sons
Good Lord! By chained hands
Our brow would yield under the yoke
The vile despots would have themselves be
The masters of destiny

Tremble, tyrants and traitors
The shame of all good men
Tremble! Your parricidal schemes
Will receive their just reward
Against you we are all soldiers
If they fall, our young heros
France will bear new ones
Ready to join the fight against you

Frenchmen, as magnanimous warriors
Bear or hold back your blows
Spare these sad victims
That they regret taking up arms against us
But not these bloody despots
These accomplices of Bouillé
All these tigers who pitilessly
Ripped out their mothers' wombs

We too shall enlist
When our elders' time has come
To add to the list of deeds
Inscribed upon their tombs
We are much less jealous of surviving them
Than of sharing their coffins
We shall have the sublime pride
Of avenging or joining them

Drive on sacred patriotism
Support our avenging arms
Liberty, cherished liberty
Join the struggle with your defenders
Under our flags, let victory
Hurry to your manly tone
So that in death your enemies
See your triumph and our glory!

http://www.marseillaise.org/english/english.html

Back on topic - July Issue of ProCycling poses same question...
Fignon says its cuz soccer is all anyone cares about anymore....
Riis (I think) says its cuz they don't work hard enough...
don't recall the rest...but it's not flattering.

[jerk]

If you actually knew your history you'd know that an entire f-ing generation of French males died in the trenches during World War I.

Bonus points: why was Franz Ferdinand shot?


watch out for the black hand.
serbian nationalism is a dangerous thing; whereas french nationalism is republican, flamboyant and dare the jerk say sexy, unless of course you happen to be algerian in which case it is probably worse than serbian nationalism.

'from the halls of montezuma
to the shores of tripoli,"

oops, right song wrong words.

jerk

[mihajlo]

franz ferdindand:

shot by a serb, in sarajevo - this has nothing to do with cycling and it doesn't explain why there aren't any reps from the balkans in the tour, while you have plenty of french and other western euros.

any nationalism is dangerous....be it the perceived or created, maybe starting wars on foreign soil is deemed nationalistic -

but i doubt it helps anyone's cycling.

[andy mac]

good initial question.

in the mid to late 90's france won the football world cup and european championships so that may have inspired many kids/teens at the time to take up the game. there's also so much money in it and you don't have to be a top player (top 20 in the world) to make huge money. plenty of club players live the high life and there are plenty of leagues all around the world.

does raise a lot of interesting questions about the sport. seems many people get into it by accident ofetn later in life or through their parents.

are there any high school programs anywhere in the world?

how about the uk? as far as i know they invented tennis, rugby, golf and cricket. with a few exceptions, they are crap at all of them...

[Roy E. Munson]

how about the uk? as far as i know they invented tennis, rugby, golf and cricket. with a few exceptions, they are crap at all of them...

Did you miss the last rugby World Cup?

[djg]

I think that, apart from the French bashing, pieces of an answer may be in several of the posts above. More of the world is involved in cycling than once-upon-a-time (and has developed training resources, including coaching resources); not unrelated, the population of France relative to the rest of the cycling world isn't what it once was; the French have taken up a greater diversity of sports (heck, they even play hoops now), just as more of the world has taken up bike racing; and, as andy mac suggested, there's the soccer/football thing. Soccer was a bigger sport in France when I lived there in '80-'81 and has likely been bigger than cycling in all the intervening years--far more kids give it a go, quite a few more (plausibly) can fantasize about making a living if they make it to a serious level; and certain French successes on the world stage have especially piqued the interest of French kids (just as Noah's success in tennis did); and all of that has played into the fact that these things tend to go in waves anyway.

Plus Moreau isn't doing all that bad. He won't win, unless several freak events intervene, but he's doing just fine.

Dan, who is proud to be an American, but who still kinda tears up at what may be the hokiest moment in film history; that is, the singing of the Marseillaise in Casablanca.

[andy mac]

NB: "few exceptions"

what happened before that, and what's happened since...

[zeroking17]

I think that, apart from the French bashing, pieces of an answer may be in several of the posts above. More of the world is involved in cycling than once-upon-a-time (and has developed training resources, including coaching resources); not unrelated, the population of France relative to the rest of the cycling world isn't what it once was; the French have taken up a greater diversity of sports (heck, they even play hoops now), just as more of the world has taken up bike racing; and, as andy mac suggested, there's the soccer/football thing. Soccer was a bigger sport in France when I lived there in '80-'81 and has likely been bigger than cycling in all the intervening years--far more kids give it a go, quite a few more (plausibly) can fantasize about making a living if they make it to a serious level; and certain French successes on the world stage have especially piqued the interest of French kids (just as Noah's success in tennis did); and all of that has played into the fact that these things tend to go in waves anyway.


Thanks to andymac and djg for insightful explanations (and to doofus for the bizarro gc results stripped of "newcomers.") I also got to thinking that Indurain and Armstrong have accounted for 12 of the last 15 Tour wins (assuming that Armstrong wins this final one). That simply doesn't leave much room for others.

Still, it seems that the French/Belgian/Dutch riders have continued to do very well in the Classics and other shorter races, but for some reason really strong GC riders have not emerged from those countries in the last years.

Also interesting are Mouncoutie's comments on this topic in Eurosport:
http://www.eurosport.com/home/pages/v4/l0/s18/e7203/sport_lng0_spo18_evt7203_sto742291.shtml

[andy mac]

interesting article here. french riders saying they are riding clean that's why they are so far behind...

http://www.bicycling.com/tourdefrance/experts/columns/0,5976,s1-12667-527,00.html?category_id=527

[gasman]

Did you miss the last rugby World Cup?


It was fantastic. Except that the All Blacks didn't win it all. Rugby is a way better sporting event to attend live than seeing the Tour whizz by for 1 minute.