interesting small gallery of the carbon process from Landshark

[eddief]

it must take an artist and a craftsman...it just seems so damn not precise:

http://landsharkbicycles.com/how/#

[bigreen505]

Interesting. Assuming that is all there is to what they are doing, it is not quite what I would have expected.

[Kontact]

Not so different than what Crumpton shows on Vsalon, or how Cyfac does things.

Wet resin processes are always messier looking. Prepreg keeps the cut fabric looking neat, and it sticks to itself more predictably than loose weave cloth and gooey epoxy.


I think everyone gives the carbon fiber too much credit as some sort of precision process. It is still more of a hand process than Trek's machine cut and brazed lugged frames were. In many ways, a tube to tube process like Landshark's produces something a lot neater on the inside than of most molded bikes.

We have a demo set of Meivici lug and tubes in the shop. It surprised me how big the bond line is between lug and tube - they really rattle around in there. The epoxy does a lot of filling AND bonding - much more so than silver brazed lugs.

[Kevan]

Several years ago, either here or on Calfee's old forum, some guy ranted about how unsatisfied he was about the layup of the cf cloth used at the joints. Considering all the bends and curves associated with frames I thought the complaint was a tad nit picky. I haven't worked with cf, but did some work using fiberglass, working on boats. Rather than elegant cloth layout it was more important to us to avoid air bubbles, have adequate saturation, and have a precise epoxy resin mix. Course, then a masking gel coat was applied to cover, hiding all.

Nope. When I look at these frames, I'm impressed.

[rwsaunders]

Reminds me a bit of doing bondo work on my next door neighbor's '72 Vega when we were in HS...

[bike22]

the process reminds me of making sausages

[eddief]

it is kinda like making surf boards. i have never done that, but when i have seen videos of boards being made, everything is all clean and white and powdery. the joining of tubes is way less smoothing oriented and all black and joining tough tube angles with fraying black fabric and gloppy glue...

until you get much closer to the finished product. and then you get a $5K beauty from the likes of Landshark.

[6mt]

could some one explain what's the "paste" looking substance??

[Kontact]

That paste is epoxy and some sort of filler. It's applied to "fillet" the tubes so the carbon layed over it flows from tube to tube.

[6mt]

so essentially, the construction method in the video is some what of a "traditional" method as oppose to the more modern methods where mold, lay up schedule and such would be involve?

[Lifelover]

Superman wears Chuck Norris underwear and Dave Kirk wears John Slawta underwear.



Absolutely no disrespect meant to Dave!

[Steve in SLO]

After looking at the pics, especially the last one where it appears a porcupine was impaled on the seat cluster, it might be better not to show every process on your website.

[rugbysecondrow]

When I get a custom carbon, it will be a Landshark. My first bike lust was a Landshark. I missed the boat on the steel, but I plan on getting a carbon someday.

[Kontact]

so essentially, the construction method in the video is some what of a "traditional" method as oppose to the more modern methods where mold, lay up schedule and such would be involve?
Not really. The first method for making carbon bikes was gluing square end tubes to aluminum lugs that inserted into the tubing (1970s). Molded bikes came second (Kestrel and others - 1986).

Mitered carbon tubes with either external lugs or external reinforcement showed up a bit later, like the CarbonFrames (Calfee) bikes and the all carbon Look and Times - late '80s.

By 1991 or so just about every major method of making a carbon bike had been used. The reason mitered tube lugless construction evolved is because it requires little or no tooling - just the hole saws, vacuum bagging stuff and an oven. That means that it can be done by small shops, and allows the greatest versatility since no molds are needed or used.

[rwsaunders]

Carl Strong's assembly process for his carbon frames is documented fairly well on his site...it seems very precise and well thought out.

http://www.strongframes.com/frames_&_pricing/carbon/tour/index.php?page_id=5838

[6mt]

Not really. The first method for making carbon bikes was gluing square end tubes to aluminum lugs that inserted into the tubing (1970s). Molded bikes came second (Kestrel and others - 1986).

Mitered carbon tubes with either external lugs or external reinforcement showed up a bit later, like the CarbonFrames (Calfee) bikes and the all carbon Look and Times - late '80s.

By 1991 or so just about every major method of making a carbon bike had been used. The reason mitered tube lugless construction evolved is because it requires little or no tooling - just the hole saws, vacuum bagging stuff and an oven. That means that it can be done by small shops, and allows the greatest versatility since no molds are needed or used.

I see. that's really interesting to know. thanks for the quick lesson!!

[velosport]

It's a messy process but no more or less than brazing.

[6mt]

you think so? I've doe brazing before, the process wasn't bad in my opinion. i'd imagine carbon fiber & epoxy & resin would make a way bigger mess, and not to mention the proper clean up afterwards.

[mike p]

Does John no longer do steel bikes? Just carbon? What a shame.

Mike

[rphetteplace]

Superman wears Chuck Norris underwear and Dave Kirk wears John Slawta underwear.



Absolutely no disrespect meant to Dave!

Laughed my a$$ off at this thanks.

[Villgaxx]

Does John no longer do steel bikes? Just carbon? What a shame.

Mike

abandoning steel and going all-in with carbone is the crumpton model, right? landshark might simply be following suit.

[nicrump]

This is a Crumpton HT joint right out of the vacuum bag. Un-sanded, not even de-flashed at this point.

While the processes may be similar in theory, the results are not.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4017/5167784255_537b3a1d60_z.jpg

And while pre-pregs are far less messy, their true benefits are in precision of layup, consistent resin content and absolute repeatability. Like this un-vacuumed, yet to be cured BB area.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4009/5167778617_a15e29de1b.jpg

[benb]

The crumpton pics look way more like you're getting your money's worth..

What is the point of lugging all that filler uphill? Does that shrink down in the curing? The pics just don't seem well chosen.

I've seen a few cut-aways of monocoque frames that are "all swoopy", and the swoopy parts are not there because of filler..

I understand joining tubes is what works for custom and what works for a small shop but if you fit on stock I find molded monocoques much more impressive personally.

[wallymann]

landsharks process looks sloppy and im not a fan of the filler.

crumpton, strong, parlee all do carbon using hand-wrapped "lugs" and a process thats much neater, consistent, and doesnt use a bunch of filler.

but i likes me my lugs, be it steel or carbon...gotta have lugs!


The crumpton pics look way more like you're getting your money's worth..

What is the point of lugging all that filler uphill? Does that shrink down in the curing? The pics just don't seem well chosen.

I've seen a few cut-aways of monocoque frames that are "all swoopy", and the swoopy parts are not there because of filler..

I understand joining tubes is what works for custom and what works for a small shop but if you fit on stock I find molded monocoques much more impressive personally.

[Kontact]

landsharks process looks sloppy and im not a fan of the filler.

crumpton, strong, parlee all do carbon using hand-wrapped "lugs" and a process thats much neater, consistent, and doesnt use a bunch of filler.

but i likes me my lugs, be it steel or carbon...gotta have lugs!
Crumpton also uses filler. You can see it on his Vsalon article - he even talks about applying it and sanding it down.

Does that make you not a Crumpton fan?


I think some of you are being extremely judgemental of Landshark's process. It is no different than Cyfacs, from what I can see.

Prepegs are cleaner, but require good pressure because there isn't any extra resin to fill voids. A Crumpton that was in the shop had little craters in the headtube lug area.

Unless Landshark's bikes are ugly, heavy or tend to break, there really isn't any reason to bag on their process.

[weaponsgrade]

I have a Landshark carbon and I think it is awesome. I'm not a carbon expert so I won't comment on all the different techniques. But since the focus here seems to be on being "neat" as an indication of worth, I'll say that John's shop is probably the cleanest, neatest, and most organized shop I've ever seen. I was actually kinda disappointed there wasn't any "clutter" to look at. I thought for sure there would be history, old frames, parts, jerseys, memorbilia, etc. lying all over the place, but nothing. He had several frames in various stages of build that I saw and the one that was about to go into paint was looking very "neat."

[Stan Lee]

A little off topic, I just purchased this Tandem from Johns brother Scott. Scott did all of the crazy paint jobs (including this one) when Landshark was based out of CA..

[wallymann]

Crumpton also uses filler. You can see it on his Vsalon article - he even talks about applying it and sanding it down.


perhaps an ill informed opinion, i admit.

why are landsharks filler fillets so dang voluminous? it looks like an original late 80s kestrel or something.

i know great stuff can come from messy handmade processes. ever hear of a guy named john britten? in the 90s he singlehandedly made truly innovative racing motocycles that challenged the big factories, all out of an unremarkable workshop in NZ. handmade carbon layups were the rule -- no prepeg to be seen anywhere, but plenty of rolls of fiber strand and buckets of epoxy.

amazing stuff.

http://motors-bay.com/img/Britten/britten002.jpg

[6mt]

that guy was a Genius!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QM_aNwaodd4)

[Bob Ross]

Unless Landshark's bikes are ugly, heavy or tend to break, there really isn't any reason to bag on their process.

I thought everyone had already agreed on that first point years ago when John was still making & painting steel?

:)