Top Places to Live in USA : Where would you live and why?

[gt6267a]

After sometime away, I am going to enter the work world. I’m not thrilled with my current location, Philly, and am looking for location recommendations.

Where would you go? I have no children, dependencies … no geographic obligations.

I am looking for a place with excellent cycling, living, food and weather(the more sunshine the better). Quality hiking within driving distance and a supply of single woman are also big positives ...

Thoughts? What’s your top pick and why?

Thanks,
K

[TheDon]

I would have to recommend the front range of Colorado.
Or maybe Flagstaff, AZ.
Depends on how much you like snow...10 inches and counting in Boulder today...

[bcm119]

I ponder that question all the time. I'm a geographer and make maps for a living, so I have a pretty good sense of how this country is laid out, but its the people that always get me. Some obvious choices for cycling and general outdoorsyness are Colorado front range towns like Boulder and Ft Collins, coastal CA towns like Santa Barbara, Santa Cruz, Marin county, and San Diego, and the Oregon cities of Portland or Eugene. If you are annoyed by lots of trust-fund Bohemian Bourgeoise kids driving Outbacks, stay clear of Boulder and Santa Barbara. Otherwise, the major drawback to these trendy places is the cost of living and/or the lack of jobs. (Oregon in general is cheap living but making any money can be tough). There are some nice places to live in the Hudson Valley of NY, although folks there now probably would disagree after this winter... I like New Paltz and anywhere in Columbia county, and theres alot to be said for the Albany area too. If you like heat, Tucson is a great community, and Flagstaff is nice too but not much road riding up there. Montana has Missoula and Bozeman which offer low costs of living (but thats changing I hear). I spent four years in State College, and don't recommend it. I'm not as familiar with the southeast but I liked Asheville the few times I visited.
In general, I do alot of research with the internet to find the qualities I like in a community- mostly having to do with climate, proximity to wilderness, cost of housing, and number of breweries or wineries. Try this site sometime-
findyourspot.com.

good luck!

[TheDon]

No offence taken on the Boulder comment, because you are pretty much dead on right! Luckily I work from home, don't drive a sooby nor have a trust fund, but those people are pretty prevalent. But you make some really good recommendations and analysis.
Well done.

[Peter]

Geez, I have to agree with TheDon and bcm119 on their picks. I had the chance to visit Fort Collins CO this past summer for a week. Need to get around town? Their bike lane network is not a multi-use path but a bona-fide bike travel lane that can get you anywhere SAFELY in town. The bike shops (whose names I forget) carry lots of high end stuff which told me there are lots of road riders to cater to, so there must be lots of good riding, too. Flats are to the east, climbs-measured in miles-are to the west. I rode up Rist Canyon for something like 11 miles, and up Devil's Gulch Road to Estes Park which, with the approach route, was something on the order of a 20 mile climb! Plenty of mountainbiking as well as hiking in-town. And Coloradoans are known for leading the most active lifestyles in the nation. The Rocky Mountain Nation Park was an incredible sight, and cycling in there looked amazing as well. Too bad Estes Park, the adjoining city, is a tourist trap.

As far as bcm119's pick of Albany, I visited friends in the suburban Albany area many times and ridden my bike there as well. If you live west of Albany, the riding in the Heldebergs (hills) is countrified, peaceful, and light of traffic. Winters are probably tougher than Colorado, where I was told 70 mile rides were easily doable in January. But you're rapidly behind the bustle of Albany 5 miles west.

I'd consider checking out the Berkshires of western Massachussetts. Great Barrington, Lenox, Pittsfield, North Adams. Lots of country roads, parks, small towns, and light traffic. Very New England-y without the urban density.

[bcm119]

Berkshires is a good call, at least in the warmer months. And just north in southern Vermont is absolutely gorgeous. I have a cycling buddy who lives in North Bennington who I am very jealous of during the spring and fall, when in my opinion New England is the best place in the country to ride. And don't be fooled by west coast beer snobs- the beer in New England is just as good.
One consideration about Colorado is the winter- it is much less harsh than in New England (at least down on the flats). Sure, they get an occasional arctic blast and snowstorms, but the days in between are usually clear and mild. Denver actually has more sunny days per year than most cities in California (and all cities in Florida) because of the sinking air coming off the mountains. Hey Don, about the Subys, we have an infestation here too, but I still wouldn't mind having one- or a trust fund!

[Don]

Hey guys,

Careful about your reference to Subarus! Neither I nor my wife are trust fund babies. We both drive Subarus because they are highly dependable and have all wheel drive. I started buying Subarus back in the late '80's for use in the Chicago winters. The fact that my Outback can carry two bikes inside and still haul our gear on a biking trip is a plus. Being able to rack a bike on the roof without using a ladder is another benefit.

By the way, I'm in my 70's and I don't think I can be called part of the bourgeois.

"Painting" with broad brush strokes is certainly generalizing.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . just west of Albany, and there is indeed some very good riding around here. You can go west from Schenectady along the Mohawk and do great time trials, or climb out of the river valley on some great hills. I can be out of town on my bike in no more than 15 minutes in two different directions.

Around Saratoga, particularly north and west from there into the foothills of the Adirondacks and around Great Sacandaga Lake is also awesome. The roads are generally uncrowded if you are off the highways and the scenery is beautiful.

Going further north into the ‘dacks there is yet more good riding from North Creek, around Schroon Lake, and elsewhere. And anywhere in Vermont is great--the moment you go over the border there the houses are cleaner, the trees and grass are greener, and everything just seems so much prettier.

I think this area is greatly underrated as far as cycling. There is a reason Ben got into cycling, being from Saratoga--there are many great places to ride.

BBDave

[bulliedawg]

Asheville.

[Jeff N.]

San Diego, California. The only thing it doesn't have is a decent NFL football team (The Chargers). It is getting rather crowded though, and homes are priced out of reach for almost everyone who isn't already established there. But if you can afford it, it has much to offer in the way of great weather, great cycling, and great babe-age. Its just a great place to live. Jeff N.

[bcm119]

No offense intended, Don from FL. My next car will be a Forester. I think its strange that Subaru is about the only car that has all wheel drive, affordability, semi compact size and decent gas mileage. Why aren't there more cars like them? I guess they are just easy targets for generalizations because there are so many of them in outdoorsy towns these days.

[MarinRider]

Last year I went through the same debate and moved from Cambridge, MA to Marin County, CA.

I now put in 5 outdoor rides a week even in the winter. The racing season starts in January. At night, I ride a road, Bolina-Fairfax, which is so secluded that you won't see one car in 30 miles. This is all within riding distance from the city of San Francisco so there are many metro, urban, singles things to do as well.

Sure it's expensive to live here but it's paradise tax imo. Should have moved years earlier.

[cycler48]

I agree with Jeff N about San Diego, but I'd extend it to several other areas in southern California too. Cycling is year 'round here, there are many fantastic areas to ride (road or mountain), and the cycling community is extensive. Where I live (San Bernardino area) there are very few instances of driver/cyclist conflict ... people seem to share the road. Sure, there is poor air quality inland during the summer, but if you ride early or late, you can avoid the bad air quality times of the day.

[dbrk]

Folks seem to tout wherever it is they live and I take this to be a good thing because it means people are happy living where they are living.

Conclusion first:
I would have two homes, if I could afford it. One somewhere like here in the boonies of the Finger Lakes of western NY, 'cause say what you will, we have endless, empty roads in summer and enough scenery. The other would be in Italy, in Tuscany or Umbria.

Here are things I think about when I think about this -every- winter:

People:
I can live largely without them, thank you very much. This leaves out most cities, including nice ones like Portland or Asheville or wherever. California especially is too damn crowded, period, or too damn expensive or both. I am just not that fond of cars, people, and lifestyle choices that draw people. This leaves out the Carolinas, Virginia and DC, metro NY, and anywhere that is experiencing "growth." "Growth" and "culture" are for other people. When I want culture, I go to Europe. I prefer my people on the Internet and my hometown as quiet as a nunnery. I like living in a place where the net population has _not grown_ in past 20 years. No young person would agree with this notion. Others will find this anti-social. As I see it, I have plenty to keep me amused, busy, and thinking. I have tons of books, a lovely wife who is just as not-fond of "going out" and a dog who thinks chasing the deer is just fine. Oh yeah, I got bikes I like to hang out with. I even have friends, if you can believe that, and we are happy to have visitors. You'll find me at home, out here in the woods.

Roads:
You don't need bike lanes if you don't have too many people around. But in too many places there aren't even shoulders. I hate that. It so much better when the roads are not scary, when cars don't come so close to you that you can feel them touch the hair on your arms. Oh yeah, I hate bike paths. Hate'em. I want to ride on _roads_. Colorado, Florida, most of Connecticut: not enough room on the road. Places with bike paths are for other people. Next, there has to be a LOT of roads. My problem with the western states is that they have about a fifth as many roads as there are in the old east. Look at a map, we got a MILLION roads all going nowhere and most of which are untravelled. Vermont and New Hampshire can be okay but they get way more tourists than we do. Better to be a place where people say, "Why would you go there?" or "Who lives there?" If the place isn't that sort of place, count me out.

Landscape:
Not too flat, not too hard. Problem with Colorado and lots of the Rockies is that it's too up or too much in the valleys. Ohio is good, western NY is good too, like Pennsyvania. Again, "who'd go there?" That's always a good sign. The landscape also has to include an absence of rednecks who are trying to kill me just because they can and I am riding a bicycle. I want friendly landscape, wide berths from cars, as few flying objects in my direction as possible.

Weather:
The older I get the more I wish there were such a thing as a perfect place but if you go to, say, San Diego, where the weather is just about perfect, there are just too many people, too much going on. If you go to Arizona, it's too crazy hot as much as it is too crazy cold where I live year'round. The only real solution is two homes, preferably when there aren't many people around either.

Somewhere Else:
I like Italy and if I didn't have to work, I might try to live there or in New Zealand until the grass was no longer greener. But ideally it would be two places: somewhere remote and filled with rolling hills and empty roads, like here, for the summer. Then at Christmastime adios to the winter and off to somewhere I can be a foreigner that no one really cares too much about who rides his bike and smiles in friendly ways on the very occasional outing to the grocery.

Maybe I write so much because I see so few people. I like people, just on my own terms. Who doesn't? I just make a point of living this way.

I shoulda' been a Carthusian but I don't think they allow bicycles.

dbrk

[jbay]

dbrk wrote:

[...]
Somewhere Else:
I like Italy and if I didn't have to work, I might try to live there or in New Zealand until the grass was no longer greener. But ideally it would be two places: somewhere remote and filled with rolling hills and empty roads, like here, for the summer. Then at Christmastime adios to the winter and off to somewhere I can be a foreigner that no one really cares too much about who rides his bike and smiles in friendly ways on the very occasional outing to the grocery.
[...]


Douglas,

That was quite the interesting and thought provoking response, thank you.

You mentioned New Zealand, so I'll comment on that first. Well, it does have the advantage that you can escape from the worst of the northern hemisphere weather at Christmas, but, from the living and cycling perspective, I suspect it might disappoint. There are very few places where you can live and have an ample choice of good roads. Forget about the south island completely; there just aren't enough roads.

There are a greater number of roads on the north island, but every single one of them, no matter how narrow, twisty and undulating, has a 100km/hr (62mph) speed limit. That in itself is one thing, but the drivers here take that speed limit as a challenge. Boy (and girl) racerdom is rife and cyclists get no respect - and I mean none.

On a more general note, more in keeping with the subject line of this thread, one heading that you possibly missed out, is that of cycling culture. If you want to be able to talk about French bikes (or more to the point, see and touch 'em), go visit shops like Mike Barry's etc. etc., forget it! Like me at the moment, you would have to get this kind of culture vicariously via the internet!

All that to say, make that second home in Italy.

-- John

[Kevin]

drbk,

With the exception of your wish for warm weather, it sounds like you could be the unabomber.

There I go again with my sarcsatic sense of humor. I'll appologize now in case I have offended anyone.

Perhaps it is individuals like me that cause you to want to live in the boonies.

Kevin

[Too Tall]

Strictly for biking and getting out the Berkshires are pretty amazing. Boulder, front range and many western states have a problem...not many roads. If find that boring to a point and could live a lifetime on eastern seaboard rural roads.

My favorite ULTIMATE place might not be in the USA. I'm enamoured with French and Italian culture. Their passion for....passion is irresistable and it follows all things I enjoy and begins and ends with cooking, bicycles, art and romance.

So, what's my pick? Roxbury Pa.

[dbrk]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kevin
[B]drbk,

With the exception of your wish for warm weather, it sounds like you could be the unabomber.


I'm not the least bit offended since my wife has suggested much the same thing about my reclusive aspirations. Some on this Forum can attest, however, to the fact that it is indeed safe to open the post if it comes from me and others may note that it is safe and even fun to visit us and stay awhile!

This is way off the topic but I remember when the Unabomber's manifesto was published I thought two things immediately. First, this guy _must_ have been a college professor, likely a scientist or mathematician. I announced this in my classes and gave some rant about how everyone should read this piece, not merely to get inside the mind of a pyschopath but to think about what he said. He wrote too much like an academic but humanities guys (like me) could never figure out how to build bombs. Second, that at least some of what he had to say made perfect sense. (Bear with me...) I'm humming along reading about the evils of the military industrial complex, the degredation of the environment, etc., thinking this is not so bad...but then he says, he's gonna make them pay...uhh, oops!! You lost me there, fella!

Back to topic: I suppose John has inked out New Zealand from the list. [Add Randy Newman's lyric..."We'll save Australia...Don't wanna' hurt no kangaroo..."] How's riding out in the west, like Perth?

Last June's trip to Italy was cycling paradise and fellow-Forum-pal PhatMatt was the highlight of my trip---he was great company. So let me clarify. I rarely get to ride with friends (scheduling, etc.) but those are some of my favorite times. It's OtherPeople that make me wanna crawl into an old box of Mafacs and talk to the cable yokes.

dbrk
who looks forward to another Tour de FingerLakes with you fine folk...

[victoryfactory]

Moab.
The ultmate, if you like MTB.
Great road riding too, with the LaSal mountains and long hot rides in Arches NP, Canyonlands, etc.
Plus you are near Colorado National Monument, and in striking distance of most of my favorite places, Zion, Bryce, Grand Canyon, four corners etc.
VF

[Sandy]

Wherever my wife wants to live. Last night she brought me home 2 pair of dress shoes, 13 handkerchiefs, a warmup suit, her beautiful smile, and her constant love. I go where she goes.

Sandman

[Spectrum Bob]

Sandy
Are you stocking up on handkerchiefs for our next ride?
Spectrum Bob

[Sandy]

Yes

[Bosun]

Every place has things that are benefits/drawbacks, but those also depend on the person in question. someone might mention Eugene--but can you get a job? Can you handle the clouds?

California is rife with all kinds of great places with conditions.

I'm a teacher. Where can I live (on my income) in a nice Bungalow in a metro area near the water? No where. Except Mpls.

[gt6267a]

There are a number of great responses here. I definitely appreciate the coast and the California suggestions intrigue me. I also like the boulder recommendation as the hiking is excellent as well. I am with dbrk on the desire for less people, though not quite as extreme. I lived in San Fran during the tech boom and the place was definitely over crowded. My friends out that way claim the flock has thinned with the bombing of the bubble...

I am at a family birthday dinner last night and my Aunt is listing place after place that I might work … She then mentions doing some graduate work for free because her husband was a faculty member at a university.

I like that idea. For a few years now, I have had thoughts of going back to school. As I plan to pursue a more LA(liberal arts) path, with a very specific education in Engineering(the GT is for Georgia Tech), I will most likely have to do undergraduate work to fill in some holes. To work and educate at the same place might work nicely.

Of course, this path requires my qualifications and a job opening to line up …

Any thoughts or recommendations in this light?

[weisan]

I visited the beautiful country of New Zealand with my parents almost fifteen years ago. The scenery is truly out-of-the-world, the people extremely friendly, the roads in relatively good state and quiet with little traffic.

Since that visit, I have always thought of it as my ideal place to live, to grow old, to raise my family, to die there...wait, oh yes, and to ride the bike.

I would be sad to hear that things have changed so much as John had described.

[Climb01742]

i've thought about the two home solution, but here's my thing with that: it divides your life. i've spent a fair amount of my working life living in one place (boston) while working in another (nyc). while it was nice to take what was good about both places, being divided was hard.

so for me it would have to be one place. i think "home" means one place. can you really have two "homes"? two houses, yes. two homes? kinda like having two "loves of my life". just my opinion.

i have a simple litmus test for ultimate place to live: can i exercise outside 12 months a year -- without one damn snowflake? so far for me that would be somewhere north of LA and south of portland, ore.

[Don]

The Forester is a great car! Thanks for your comments.

Don

[davids]

I don't really have any suggestions for gt6267a (I love Boston, crowded, potholed roads, muggy summers, snowy winters and all...), but dbrk's riff on roads really struck a chord for me.

I was down in FL (Jupiter, just north of Palm Beach) for a while in late December, and found the riding fairly tedious. I could go north along the ocean, south along the ocean, or west into the swamp. All the roads were dead flat, dead straight, and bo-o-o-ring! The weather was perfect, but beyond the joy I experienced just being able to ride on the road, and move fast, I was not particularly engaged in riding.

We went down to the Keys for a few days, and the situation there was worse. I can't imagine being trapped out there, with a single, narrow, crowded, tedious road on which I could ride any distance at all! Being a cyclist in the Florida Keys seems like a special kind of hell.

Give me the winding, hilly roads of New England while it's warm, and the twisty trails of the New England woods when it's cold. I'll be happy at home.

Just my opinion, of course!

[shinomaster]

why because ...

1. it rains all the time
2. we have the worst public school system in the nation
3. Shinomaster

[Climb01742]

hey, i'm a product of portland's public schools. be kind. :rolleyes:

[oracle]

twisp, washington

[djg]

Seem to be trade-offs everywhere. Dbrk's love of solitude (or semi-solitude) is the sort of thing I feel pretty deeply 3 or 4 days a month. Otherwise, it turns out that I like people. I like having good public schools handy. I like being able to take my kids to great museums (so much for the rockies and the pacific northwest, among others). I like the fact that a friend of mine has a vibrant theatre company nearby--I like that even if I'm too busy to actually show up for a while.

Overall, I think that the DC area, although it couldn't possibly be for everyone, is pretty good.

[jbay]

Originally posted by weisan
I visited the beautiful country of New Zealand with my parents almost fifteen years ago. The scenery is truly out-of-the-world, the people extremely friendly, the roads in relatively good state and quiet with little traffic.

Since that visit, I have always thought of it as my ideal place to live, to grow old, to raise my family, to die there...wait, oh yes, and to ride the bike.

I would be sad to hear that things have changed so much as John had described.

Weisan,

First of all, I should probably begin with a disclaimer saying that, despite my wish to be objective, a subject like this will always end up being subjective. By all means listen to other people's thoughts and ramblings (like mine), but feel free to disregard them too!

Secondly, while some of my remarks were couched in general terms, most were directly in response to some of Douglas' stated desireable criteria. If I don't distract myself too much, I'll try and expand on some of those points below.

As you mentioned, the scenery here in NZ is wonderful. And the people are very friendly until you put them in cars. Then, that part of the national pysche which popularised bungy jumping, etc. seems to take over and they become maniacs (my term for this is "andrenaline culture").

The roads are typically quite pothole free, which is good. Most are surfaced with a rough aggregrate (chip-seal), which can be fatiguing on long rides, but a fatter tyre takes care of that. 99.9% of the roads also do not have shoulders, and, as I mentioned in my previous post, the "open road" speed limit is 100km/hr. While this does not detract from some people's enjoyment of road cycling, this combination does affect other's (like mine).

One notable thing that has changed since your visit here is the removal of import duties from cars. This has led to a predictable large increase in number of cars on the road. I don't have fully representative figures to hand, but I did read recently that the number of cars coming through the port of Nelson in the last couple of years has quadrupled.

However, I should also mention that if you are visiting here and travelling from place to place, spending large amounts of your time in the middle of nowhere, you will probably still not be bothered too much by traffic volumes (on the south island at least). However, if you living somewhere where you can make a living, so to speak, it will almost certainly be a different story.

Returning to Douglas' criteria:

People, or lack of them:
It's certainly not hard to live away from other people in NZ, especially on the south island. However, combining that with working might be a little more difficult, depending on what you do.

Roads:
There are not many roads on the south island. There are many more on the north island, but still nothing like the number on the east coast of the US, for instance.

Landscape:
Generally good to fantastic in terms of scenery. The wind can be a big factor though. Sadly though, I can't always rate the landscape as "friendly," to use Douglas' term.

Weather:
If you want to chase the endless summer, NZ is obviously good for that during the northern hemisphere winter. The Nelson are in the south island is reputedly the sunniest part of NZ, and the weather here is certainly pretty nice year round.

I had better leave it at that for now!

-- John

[Ken Robb]

I live in San Diego--it's been mid 60's and sunny all week. Riding along looking at the water is glorious. In the summer it rarely hits 80F at the coast so that's lovely too. On a fine day (not too hot) I would love riding in the pretty parts of NY, New England, Pa. I did lots of motorcycle miles in Lancaster County eons ago. There is some dandy riding in Northwest Alabama. I need to see Washington State.

[mtflycaster]

Lots of great places to ride. I can only speak to places I have experienced....
Boulder, Ft. Collins, Bozeman, Santa Fe, Albuquerque and Durango.

They are all great, though a bit different. Bozeman area roads are narrow, and the Summer is short. NM drivers can be particularly discourteous., but the weather is great.

All in all, if you ride both the road and trails, Durango is darn hard to beat. Mountains and valleys. Not much traffic. Long season. Mostly aware drivers. Lots of compadres. Easy access to places like Moab. Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately), not many jobs.

[Cranky]

Marin. Best riding anywhere. :banana:

[hybridbellbaske]

.....Boom Paree (sic), More room for you and More room for me".

"Political Science'-Randy Newman! Great song DBRK.

I'll refrain from listing the good things about South Australia- have done that before- but I could'nt let Douglas's referenceto Mr Newman go unremarked.

By the way- completely off topic- but something which should be of interest to DBRK, and I hope others, are the recent articles in the UK magazine Cycling Plus on the Hero Bicycle factory in the Punjab. The factory turns out a bike every 5 seconds!Very interesting articles about Hero bicycles and riding in India generally.

DBRK, if you can't find the articles let me know and I'll send 'em on up.

[PBWrench]

I second Bosun's opinion. Minneapolis has incredible riding -- for 7 months of the year. I live in a western suburb and am a 15 minute ride (on the bike) from rolling, rural, smooth shouldered roads. The short season creates great intensity. I added a hardtail to my stable this year to ride on snow-covered trails during the winter. Great place to live - high quality of life. And Jesse Ventura.

[BFIC]

On a teacher's freedom and mass-desire:

Due to injuries, I passed from one major absorbtion, rock climbing in my twenties and thirties, to cycling, in my forties. In neither case have I been satisfied to live in Minneapolis, yet have continued to do so (family, work, entropy).

Two things have kept me going: having my summers off and living in a metro area where so many of us are primed to travel for 'the real thing.' Climbers scheme to get to the Black Hills, Devil's Tower, Rifle. Skiers arrange for the 24 hour drive to Aspen or a flight into Salt Lake. Bikers load the roof rack and bomb for AZ or Fruita. Hunters: off to Wyoming and Montana. Etc., etc.

I am not deluded (enough) to advertise this mania as an attractive feature of Minnesota life. Pick your activity and the season is too short, the geography too flat and nature too tame. Climbers survive on indoor gyms the way hockey players survive on indoor ice. Cyclists cyclocross and ride mountain and cross-bikes to get our joneses partly satisfied. (I just wish someone had the jing to build an indoor velodrome (is that redundant?). Getting away is the only revenge.

So, where and how to live? With friends who share the passion and wherever you can have the most free time. As some climber said once: "Climbing (cycling!) is time not deducted from your life."

[Russ]

I think DBRK's reply is right on target...

But without winning the lottery (beign rich, I mean) or finding a job that allows one to do (almost) whatever they want and get paid well, I do not know how the heck one could just "pick" a perfect place to live and move!

For me, I am stuck here in Crazy, Sunny South Florida. The weather is great 6 months out of the year, the other six months are manageable... I really enjoy riding with a sleeveless jersey in the middle of January!

I have a great job tha allows me to do (almost) whatever I want as far schedule goes, and I get paid good.

Do I HATE the traffic and the hassles associated with living in this swamp? You bet! But, I would just HATE as much to leave in the boon docks and make minimum wage at some 7-11.

Good luck finding Nirvana!

PS
I will take a job in Western NY, Ohio, or Colorado anytime! Just name the price, I will name the benefits...

[Ahneida Ride]

Douglas

There is a Carthusian Monastary just outside of Manchester
Vermont. Right behind Mt Equinox. I think you would find the
ride up Mt. Equinox ( a private road ) quite challanging.

I believe the other Carthusian Monastary is in France.

Looking forward tho the nest TDFL.

[Bruce H.]

Thank you BBDave...You brought back some wonderful memories.
I worked for 2 summers around 1970 as a waiter at "Crystal Lake Lodge" which was sadly changed to condominiums.
I fell in love with the area..Brandt Lake, Schroon Lake, Lake George, Bolton Landing..I could keep going but you know what I mean.
I agree with you about the absolute beauty of the area.
As I head down to Key West this May-June I will miss the Beautiful Northeast and the season's and , yes, even the cold and snow!
So again thanks for triggering beautiful memories!
Bruce H.

[ackwards]

I second the nomination for the Hudson River Valley and especially Columbia County. The back roads are relatively untrafficked, the drivers are polite, and the Hudson River microclimate warms things up a little earlier in the spring than in the Berkshires or west of the Catskills. Two problems though: the citiot weekenders have driven up property values so the locals have a hard time affording housing, and the job situation ain't great. But there's great variability of terrain -- if you want flat you ride toward the river and for hills toward the Berkshires. In cycling in New England, I've found the Vermont drivers the most polite -- the coastal Mainers turn into lunatics in summer (and who can blame them with the tourist influx). Plus Vermont is beautiful; there's just the pesky winter problem.

Having said that, there's a great cycling community in the DC area and despite the traffic, good rides once you clear the burbs, helped, of course, by Montgomery County's enlightened preservation of agricultural land relatively close-in. And as cities go, Washington beats many because of the wonderful Rock Creek, which closes to cars on the weekends and provides a nice way to ride out of town. And unlike upstate New York and bunches of other areas that are fabulous for cycling, there are JOBS and good universities here.

[psychlocross]

Glad to see that Bozeman has (largely) been kept out of the discussion. It's starting to get crowded here, at least in Montana terms.

A lot of people move here to live the outdoors life. People here are obsessive about the outdoors, all year round. Few people are one-sport types. Most are into two or three things for each season, e.g. hiking, climbing (rock, alpine, ice), snowshoeing, mtb, road cycling, snowboarding, tele, alpine skiing, xc (classical/track, skating, backcountry), fly fishing, kayaking, rafdting, etc. People have their favorites, but you can't stick to just one thing per season here. But, people who come here for that learn the sacrifice.

Jobs are scarce, but not impossible to find. It is difficult to get a job in your field, unless you're a realtor. Cost of living is the highest in Montana, property values are skewed for the early-retiring lawyers or investors from other time zones. And, you are very far from anywhere else. So, travel is expensive.

The people who last longer than three years here accept the sacrifice and miss nothing. But, a lot of people come here to live the life and soon realize that their MBA is worth more in the recycling bin than in the job market.

My point: to move to a "perfect" outdoors setting for four-season sport, you have to understand what you're getting into. The towns that offer more immediate hope for careers are overcrowded with thousands of other overeducated, fugitive suburban thrill seekers. The towns that are "undiscovered," i.e. ones that don't make it into some list in Outside magazine too often, will test you.

People dream about moving to such places, but the reality can be unwelcome. I, for one, am one of the very fortunate few who moved here for both the career and the lifestyle, and am not looking back. But I have seen A LOT of ski bums, adrenaline/oxygen fanatics, wannabe river guides and park rangers who just can't make it here. I suspect it's the same in many towns in the Rockies, though the malls are probably better stocked in places like Boulder and Ft Collins, but so probably are the roads and trails.

Look before you leap.

[pale scotsman]

Shino - Portland the worst public school system? You ought to spend a little time in the South. Mobile, AL has got to have the worst public school system in the free world..........

[Jeff N.]

I was always told that Montana foks are big hunters. I 've been told that EVERYONE has a rifle in their vehicles...deer and elk everywhere, etc.. Jeff N.

[psychlocross]

Go with that thought.

[eyebob]

The "2 House" theory is nice, but not enough. I advocate that every 5 years or so, you re-locate to which ever area is on your mind. After 5 or so moves you'll figure out where you'd like to be. You also won't stay in any one area long enough to collect enough crap so you're next move should'nt be too cumbersome.

My list would go like this
1. Tucson (Mt. Lemmon Climb still taunts me)
2. New England (well, NH or Western MA)
3. North Carolina (rollers, rollers, rollers)
4. Boulder or Ft. Collins (God's country)
5. Marin Co. (insert drool sound effect)
6. Bend, OR (Good Mt. biking)
7. Tuscany (mingle with the Gods)

bt