Radial vs 3 cross

[45K10]

I have a front wheel which is a 2010 Record hub laced to a Mavic Reflex rim 32 Hole 3 cross. I would like to make the wheel stiffer if possible. Would lacing radial make the wheel stiffer or do I need to go with a different rim?

Also can a Record hub be laced radially?

Thanks

[Mark McM]

I have a front wheel which is a 2010 Record hub laced to a Mavic Reflex rim 32 Hole 3 cross. I would like to make the wheel stiffer if possible. Would lacing radial make the wheel stiffer or do I need to go with a different rim?

Also can a Record hub be laced radially?

Thanks

Spoke pattern (i.e. crossing pattern) has little effect on wheel strength or stiffness. Radial spokes are about 5% shorter, so the spokes would contribute about 5% more to wheel stiffness, but since wheel stiffness is combination of axle/hub stiffness, spoke stiffness and rim stiffness, the real gain in stiffness for radial lacing may be only a few percent.

However, wheel stiffness is significantly affected by spoke lateral bracing angle, so if the spokes were laced elbows out, it would have a meaningful affect on wheel stiffness. Lacing all the spokes elbows out is easier with radial lacing - it can be done with crossed lacing, but becomes problematical if the spokes cross near the hub.

From the Campagnolo Hub instruction sheet (http://www.campagnolo.com/repository/documenti/en/7225312_RECORD_Hubs_0407.pdf) :

"WARNING!
Never use radial spoking on Campagnolo hubs (Fig.1)
Radial spoking will compromise the structural integrity of the hub, and can result in accident, personal injury or death. Hubs damaged as a result of radial spoking can not be repaired or replaced under warranty. You must replace the hubs."

[45K10]

Thanks Mark
I appreciate it

[bart998]

is to tie the spokes at the crossing points. Makes the wheels stiffer. If you tie them right, you don't need solder.

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=tied+spokes&um=1&hl=en&client=safari&sa=N&rls=en&biw=1440&bih=780&tbm=isch&tbnid=iBU8IROsuEge0M:&imgrefurl=http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/photos/on-show-north-american-handmade-bicycle-show-part-9/164547&docid=G9F8b7w7gS5bqM&w=600&h=450&ei=e11iTqG8IOfRiAKypsmlCg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=183&vpy=333&dur=4586&hovh=194&hovw=259&tx=164&ty=108&page=2&tbnh=133&tbnw=184&start=25&ndsp=27&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:25

[bike22]

tied and soldered spokes have long since been debunked.

[ultraman6970]

If you want stiffer just re lace it 4x, the problem is that wont be a smooth ride as with 3x. 3x is perfect in my opinion.

[oldpotatoe]

tied and soldered spokes have long since been debunked.

By whom? Jobst?

There is a real reason to T&S and I'll bet you can't guess why that is.

[kgbianchi]

my guess is to keep the wheel semi true if the spoke or nipple break?

[fatallightning]

If you want stiffer just re lace it 4x, the problem is that wont be a smooth ride as with 3x. 3x is perfect in my opinion.
not so. adding crosses to a front wheel does nothing but increase weight due to added spoke length, decrease aero, and decrease bracing angle. lacing patterns also have little to no effect on "smoothness", or radial stiffness.

going to a stiffer rim will increase stiffness. radial will increase stiffness. heavier gauge spokes will increase stiffness, at the cost of strength.

[oldpotatoe]

my guess is to keep the wheel semi true if the spoke or nipple break?

Nope

[rePhil]

so you don't have to stop and deal with it during a ride?

[oldpotatoe]

so you don't have to stop and deal with it during a ride?

Nope

[rePhil]

ok my last guess...hub windup

[oldpotatoe]

ok my last guess...hub windup

Nope.....ok.....

Spokes break normally because of too low tension at a point on the rim/wheel. Often because of smacking something 'there' and the resulting tension is low there. Think of bending a coat hanger, back-forth, back-forth-broken spoke. T&S reduces spoke movement at the flange for a too low tension spoke, reducing the chance of a broken spoke. And if it does, it doesn't flail around, good for track guys.

I also T&S a fair number of MTB disc wheels also, makes for more reliable wheels with the stress of a disc at the hub....particularly 29er wheels.

Helmet ON, flak jacket ON....

But regardless of the 'yes, but' responses, still gonna T&S, do my own wheels, fair number of others.

Gerd likes it too(Art of Wheelbuilding-DT guy) who has been building wheels for decades lime 70 years or something.

[rePhil]

Thanks for todays lesson!

[ultraman6970]

Whatever

[oldpotatoe]

Whatever

dude, ya forgot 'dude'....whatever dude.....

[ultraman6970]

hahaha whatever dude :D

[troymac]

dude, ya forgot 'dude'....whatever dude.....
Nice ... got a nice chuckle from that exchange :)

[forrestw]

Most people consider Record hubs to be strong enough to lace radial HOWEVER, once a hub has been laced crossing, you can't switch to radial because once you've setup stress-risers in a tangential direction, changing the direction of applied force is likely to cause fractures (according to Sheldon, I agree with him on this).

Once again I'm gonna disagree w/ OldP. If tying spoke crossings saves you from tension due to uneven tension then the better solution is to maintain even tension in the first place.

Personally I like lacing radial if I'm using hubs that are rated for that (Shimano hubs are). It speaks tot he minimalist in me; sure 5% shorter/lighter isn't much but unless someone can show me a reason that crossing is stronger on a front (hasn't happened yet), I'll continue to lace fronts radial.

[Kontact]

Forest,

If you read what OldP said again, you'll find that his argument for T&S is that it prevents heads breaking after tension goes off from rim damage. Once the rim is off it just isn't possible to maintain ideal tension.


Of the various things mentioned in this thread, I'll take exception to a couple:

1. 4x wheels are less stiff than 3x, which is less than 2x, 1x and then radial. The lacing pattern matters, and the shorter spokes with the biggest angle are the stiffest.
2. I've never met a wheelbuilder that would build a radial laced wheel elbows out. Doing so is practically asking for a flange failure from the lopsided loading on the edge of the flange.

Longer, crossing spokes aren't as stiff because they absorb impacts better than short, non-crossing (touching) spokes. That's usually a good trade off. I think FL's suggestion is the best: A stiffer rim is going to have the most obvious effect with no impact on durability.

Spoke lacing is much like hardening steel. The hardest steel is also the strongest (most resistant to bending), but is also the most brittle - it can't be bent much without failing altogether. Radial lacing is very strong and stiff, but if you push it far enough has little give to absorb impacts - so something has to break.

As far as T&S goes, many wheels I've seen with painted or aero spokes develop divets where they cross another spoke. If tying spokes prevents the spokes from moving where they cross, shouldn't non-tied wheels with divets "ping" as you're riding them like they do when you flex them by hand? But they don't, so I wonder how much more static the spoke cross can be in terms of stiffness. However, OldP's argument about damage and spoke heads is sensible.


The most convincing arguments I've heard lately are for 2x lacing because you get a supported cross, but with a greater bracing angle than 3x. That seems very sensible, and I have had no issues with 2x wheels I've built.


If I wanted to build a radial wheel but didn't want to void a warranty, I'd go 1x. It does nearly everything radial lacing does, but is pulls the spokes at a bit of an angle which should be easier on the flange and the warranty department. Plus, half the elbows are out for greater bracing while not killing the flange.

[forrestw]

Forrest,

If you read what OldP said again, you'll find that his argument for T&S is that it prevents heads breaking after tension goes off from rim damage. Once the rim is off it just isn't possible to maintain ideal tension.
IMX/IMO when a rim is damaged to the point that you can't get to a reasonably even tension it's time to retire it. Also I true wheels first for even tension, usually at the cost of a small degree of out-of-true.

Spoke lacing is much like hardening steel. The hardest steel is also the strongest (most resistant to bending), but is also the most brittle - it can't be bent much without failing altogether. Radial lacing is very strong and stiff, but if you push it far enough has little give to absorb impacts - so something has to break.
In general concept perhaps yes, in real numbers it's not a fair analogy. Hardened steel runs as high as 300,000 psi tensile strength compared to annealed/normalized in the 60,000 (or less) psi range, i.e. 5x difference vs 5% difference due to spoke length radial vs crossing

As far as T&S goes, many wheels I've seen with painted or aero spokes develop divets where they cross another spoke. If tying spokes prevents the spokes from moving where they cross, shouldn't non-tied wheels with divets "ping" as you're riding them like they do when you flex them by hand?
If you back-force pedal for braking on a fixed gear you will indeed hear pinging in the rear spokes ... err well I do but then the '70s were good to me :-)

Oh and OldP, I have always wanted to tie & solder simply for the coolness factor but decided to forego it when I read in Brandt's book and analysis that it was inconsequential to structure :-)

[Kontact]

IMX/IMO when a rim is damaged to the point that you can't get to a reasonably even tension it's time to retire it. Also I true wheels first for even tension, usually at the cost of a small degree of out-of-true.


In general concept perhaps yes, in real numbers it's not a fair analogy. Hardened steel runs as high as 300,000 psi tensile strength compared to annealed/normalized in the 60,000 (or less) psi range, i.e. 5x difference vs 5% difference due to spoke length radial vs crossing


If you back-force pedal for braking on a fixed gear you will indeed hear pinging in the rear spokes ... err well I do but then the '70s were good to me :-)

Oh and OldP, I have always wanted to tie & solder simply for the coolness factor but decided to forego it when I read in Brandt's book and analysis that it was inconsequential to structure :-)
I was comparing the range of heat treated steel tempers, not annealed, which might as well be cast iron.

And I'm curious where you obtained the 5% number. Do you have a link or formula to share?

[forrestw]

I was going by the length difference stated by others on this thread -- which seems about right to me obviously the number would be small for a low flange and larger for a high flange.

Wheel failure and optimal spoke tension is a pretty large subject :-(

p.s. yes but even within the range of hardness of hardened & tempered steels you're looking at 2:1 range.

[markie]

Cool thread.

So how well do radial wheels hold up to braking forces?

[forrestw]

pretty much the way cross laced spokes do, obviously you can't use disc brakes on a radial spoked wheel.

[oldpotatoe]

[QUOTE=forrestw]Most people consider Record hubs to be strong enough to lace radial HOWEVER, once a hub has been laced crossing, you can't switch to radial because once you've setup stress-risers in a tangential direction, changing the direction of applied force is likely to cause fractures (according to Sheldon, I agree with him on this).

Once again I'm gonna disagree w/ OldP. If tying spoke crossings saves you from tension due to uneven tension then the better solution is to maintain even tension in the first place.

From a deformed rim from riding, not from building at low tension.
or

whatever dude.

[redir]

Humm... I've been racing a radial laced front wheel Campy hub that was once laced 3 cross for years in cyclocross.

Maybe I should retire the wheel?

[Kontact]

I was going by the length difference stated by others on this thread -- which seems about right to me obviously the number would be small for a low flange and larger for a high flange.

Wheel failure and optimal spoke tension is a pretty large subject :-(

p.s. yes but even within the range of hardness of hardened & tempered steels you're looking at 2:1 range.
Okay, so you got that number by only comparing spoke length, and ignoring everything else? (Bracing angle, spoke crossings, flange, etc.)

Just think how stiff a radial wheel with zero bracing angle would be - the spokes would be really short, and that's all that matters, right?