TdF Spoiler

[93legendti]

Same old Discovery, same old Lance. Any questions?

[Dr. Doofus]

T-Mobile: who's your daddy?

heh heh heh

[Tom]

I didn't expect that, but what do I know?

Interesting.

[Proxy]

Same old Discovery, same old Lance. Any questions?

LA has not outwardly demonstrated acts of class – 1st the tt now today’s stage, giving seconds to riders might not seem like much but to me its pure panache. nice way to go out.

[93legendti]

LA has not outwardly demonstrated acts of class – 1st the tt now today’s stage, giving seconds to riders might not seem like much but to me its pure panache. nice way to go out.

? Have you been watching the last 6 years?

[Spinsistah]

It was just incredible, he crushed his competition, just left them in the dust, except for Valverde. And I don't think it was a gift either, Valverde beat Lance to the line.

[Proxy]

? Have you been watching the last 6 years?

give me a quick list of where he give wins to guys that try hard? no gifts.

[Dr. Doofus]

pantani, basso...

[Proxy]

pantani, basso...

is kind of diff than a legend and the last time he did anything for basso was when he showed him the way up the Ad'H. if valverde ever learns to tt uh oh.

[e-RICHIE]

give me a quick list of where he give wins to guys that try hard? no gifts.



lance doesn't have the franchise on it; it's
practically a tour tradition going back gen-
erations. i don't think they keep the stats
on this!

[Dr. Doofus]

is kind of diff than a legend and the last time he did anything for basso was when he showed him the way up the Ad'H. if valverde ever learns to tt uh oh.


why don't you watch ventoux 2000 again....

and that stage win for basso was a gift

please

[Proxy]

lance doesn't have the franchise on it; it's
practically a tour tradition going back gen-
erations. i don't think they keep the stats
on this!

but with many thinking he is a selfish prick it’s sure nice to see. Amazing stage.

[Proxy]

why don't you watch ventoux 2000 again....

and that stage win for basso was a gift

please

I would rather deal here with you. anything else?

[93legendti]

give me a quick list of where he give wins to guys that try hard? no gifts.

OK, you originally said "acts of class", now you changed, that's cool:

Pantani Ventoux 2000
Guerrini Alpe D'Huez 1999
Basso La Mongie 2004

Tried to give Heras the win on Platteau de Beille in 2002
Waited for Ulrich on the Luz Ardidden stage in 2001 after Jan crashed

"No gifts" only started last year.

Should I keep going?

Oops, I see others beat me to it.

What's the prize for the "nicest guy"?

[Len J]

1.) Wow
2.) Following it on the net, sounds like the Team really came thru
3.) Basso may be feeling the effects of the GIRO.......I think he will continue to lose time.
4.) Levi looks like he is podium bound
5.) It's a shame rasmussan isn't much of a TT'er. However, as rasmussan continues to try for KOM points, Discovery is going to have to be more attentive, which should make things interesting.
6.) I was most surprised at Landis........I really thought he had a chance to surprise people and go for a podium spot.
7.) Valverde continues to be a surprisingly good climber.

Len

[e-RICHIE]

but with many thinking he is a selfish prick it’s sure nice to see. Amazing stage.



btw, i saw him get second rather than
give away first. are there reports to the
contrary?

[Proxy]

btw, i saw him get second rather than
give away first. are there reports to the
contrary?

LA turned and lets him pass and did not contest it. to me he sure could have. he just wants yellow, I like a simple plan.

[Sandy]

I sure saw it that way too. Clearly, it looked as if he wanted first place, but he was simply beaten in the sprint.

Slow Sprinting Sandy

[e-RICHIE]

LA turned and lets him pass and did not contest it. to me he sure could have. he just wants yellow, I like a simple plan.


he didn't contest it because he was done.
it was an impressive display, those last
few k's, but it's no guarantee he had the
stones to finish it off.

[Proxy]

I sure saw it that way too. Clearly, it looked as if he wanted first place, but he was simply beaten in the sprint.

Slow Sprinting Sandy

he set a tempo and dropped how many guys only to lost my 1/2 wheel @ the end? don't think so.

[Dr. Doofus]

I would rather deal here with you. anything else?


troll

[Proxy]

he didn't contest it because he was done.
it was an impressive display, those last
few k's, but it's no guarantee he had the
stones to finish it off.

you think he was @ 100% and done? he gave it to him.

[97CSI]

LA would have liked to have had the win, but it was more important to him to have the 'same-time' as Valverde and a gap to Rasmussan. And that he got. Now he has a 'friend' in Valverde with his gracious congratulations after the finish line. What's that worth? Too bad LA has decided to retire. Would have been nice to see him train for one-day classics next year.

Tomorrow should also prove interesting.

[sspielman]

I hate to interrupt the Lancefest, BUT.....
All that happened today was that Lance served notice that he is in the race and intends to win it in the same way that he has in the past. There are still about 20 GC contenders in with a chance. They represent a variety of teams and will have to be controlled. Lance will have to on every day...with no bad days...as will his team. There will be more attacks (I hope) so there will be more stories than just about who the beneficiaries were of one of the kings magnanimous gifts. Congratulations to Valverde!

[Kirk Pacenti]

he set a tempo and dropped how many guys only to lost my 1/2 wheel @ the end? don't think so.

You've never dropped nearly everyone on a ride only to lose the "city limit" sprint by half a wheel?

[e-RICHIE]

you think he was @ 100% and done? he gave it to him.



is that a question or a comment?

[Proxy]

is that a question or a comment?
.

[csb]

i gotta agree with richard (even if he moved out of jersey) _ lance
doesnt climb that hard, work sooo much to GIVE it to some guy
to make others think nice of him. i believe he knew valverde REALLY
wanted the stage and had the stones to make it happen.
lance came in second. there was no gift. there was a race.

[oldguy00]

I think Lance lost the stage, but I think if he really wanted to, he could have dropped Val. with 2-3km to go......who knows......
I was happy to see Ulrich beat vino though..:)

[weisan]

It was a calculated move.

Lance pushed harder than he should have on the first TT to catch his minute-man Ullrich. He paid the price.

Valverde going for the line. No sense in pushing hard again. This is a three-week long race for Lance, not a single mountain stage like for many. Every ounce counts.

0.02

[93legendti]

but with many thinking he is a selfish prick it’s sure nice to see. Amazing stage.


I know all the cancer sufferers he helps think that... :rolleyes:

[weisan]

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2005/more/specials/tour_de_france/2005/07/12/stage.10.ap/p1_lance2_ap.jpg

And his post-race comment on Valverde:
:"Everybody has seen the future of cycling"

[Proxy]

I know all the cancer sufferers he helps think that... :rolleyes:

that there are people that don't have C that dislike him, right? anyway, thanks for all the info from your prev post, you know your tour history for sure. enjoy tomorrow, now that is going to be ugly.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . of who let who win what--or not win what--it was an outstanding stage from what I can see here on VeloNews. Now I just need to find a friend to mooch cable off of tonight after my own ride.

(BTW, Valverde's stage win gets him a free pair of Bumbletards®! :) )

BBDave

[JohnS]

I hate to interrupt the Lancefest, BUT.....
All that happened today was that Lance served notice that he is in the race and intends to win it in the same way that he has in the past. There are still about 20 GC contenders in with a chance. They represent a variety of teams and will have to be controlled. Lance will have to on every day...with no bad days...as will his team. There will be more attacks (I hope) so there will be more stories than just about who the beneficiaries were of one of the kings magnanimous gifts. Congratulations to Valverde!
Not really. There are only 9 riders within 5 minutes of Lance. Unless he falls on his face, there are very few with a chance of catching him.

[coylifut]

the standard qualifier applies here. the way Vino, Jan, Klodi... came out the back of that group (and how low on the mountain they did) indicates that Lance will be able to impose his will as usual. with that said, when Lance attacked with a 1/2 k to go, it was because he knew he couldn't beat Valverde in a sprint and wanted to drop him. He couldn't and got second. No gift.

[Bobbo]

It's interesting to see how we all can be watching the same footage and come away with different impressions/conclusions. I think Lance and his team put on an amazing display of pure, brute force today. Think he was pi55ed off over what happened this past weekend? Yeah, I think so! I feel sorry for the rest of the peleton; LA took off his shoe and *****-slapped 'em but good today.

I think he was impressed with the three others still with him; it's clear to me that he definitely wanted the stage win. With 5K to go, they were all sizing each other up. I think Lance's last attack was his attempt to win the stage; when he saw that Valverde was still with him, he realized that it would be tough, but he definitely did not gift the stage. Off the bike is one thing, but on the bike, he is definitely not "nice"; I think he's the nastiest bike racer out there, and he loves to pound the opposition.

I'm going to savor the next two weeks, because we're watching the best Tour racer ever - truly one of a kind.

[erty65]

Have anyone here actually seen the racing or just read the "live reports" :) online?

[coylifut]

Have anyone here actually seen the racing or just read the "live reports" :) online?

the wife and I got up early and watched the whole thing.

[dmsi]

Note that Lance's retirement statement specified that he was retiring from "professional racing".

Doesn't that leave room for a one hour attempt next year? Build a training velodrome on the ranch in Texas, have his kids around, and then attempt one of the holiest records in cycling?

[Dr. Doofus]

I'm going to savor the next two weeks, because we're watching the best Tour racer ever - truly one of a kind.

awwww

no go there again

put eddy, bernie, and lancy all at 29 with the same training in a cage and see who comes out alive...you get a different one each time....

but none are cool enough for spokey dokes

[Sandy]

How can they post the results already?? I haven't even finished Stage 4. :)

Still Slowly Spinning STill Serotta Sandy

[erty65]

Note that Lance's retirement statement specified that he was retiring from "professional racing".

Doesn't that leave room for a one hour attempt next year? Build a training velodrome on the ranch in Texas, have his kids around, and then attempt one of the holiest records in cycling?

Or in a few months?

[scottcw]

Interesting how many thought Lance was in trouble a few days ago when Disco "had a bad day." Bluff?

Now the discussion over whether Lance let Valverde win or did not have enough at the end. The gut feeling I get from watching LA in the Tour is that everything he does has a reason behind it and that he pretty much does whatever he wants to do. So I vote that he could have won the stage if he had wanted to, but this is about more than one stage victory for him.

[Sandy]

Valverde was really impressive, to say the least. What about his future?

Sandy

[coylifut]

Armstrong was toying with people. It looked like he was riding at the front, popping people, then drifting back just to take a look see. Then back to the front to do more damage repeated by another survey.

[weisan]

Valverde wins today not only b'cos he has the legs to back it up but more importantly, he's ambitious and not easily intimidated by big names, past or current champions. In short, he believes in himself, willing to take risks, and the ability to capitalize on them. "Chicken" is the same...to finish in the prime group after his effort yesterday, that's A-M-A-Z-I-N-G!

[93legendti]

Have anyone here actually seen the racing or just read the "live reports" :) online?
Yup, saw it...

[93legendti]

Interesting how many thought Lance was in trouble a few days ago when Disco "had a bad day." Bluff?

Now the discussion over whether Lance let Valverde win or did not have enough at the end. The gut feeling I get from watching LA in the Tour is that everything he does has a reason behind it and that he pretty much does whatever he wants to do. So I vote that he could have won the stage if he had wanted to, but this is about more than one stage victory for him.

I basically said this in Saturday's "slam Lance/Discovery thread".

[Louis]

Re: The final sprint

I didn't see the race, but on the NYT web site Samuel Abt wrote:

"Armstrong did everything but win the stage. He finished second, in a two-man sprint, to Alejandro Valverde, a Spaniard with the Illes Baleares team, obviously slowing at the end to let Valverde cross the line first." (Italics added)

[e-RICHIE]

Re: The final sprint

I didn't see the race, but on the NYT web site Samuel Abt wrote:

"Armstrong did everything but win the stage. He finished second, in a two-man sprint, to Alejandro Valverde, a Spaniard with the Illes Baleares team, obviously slowing at the end to let Valverde cross the line first." (Italics added)


well a quote in the new york times
carries alot of weight with me, i'll
tell ya'!

[Roy E. Munson]

obviously slowing at the end to let Valverde cross the line first."

buuuuuuuullschit!!

[fiamme red]

I don't understand. What motive could Lance possibly have to give the stage win (and bonus seconds) to Valverde?

[djg]

Have anyone here actually seen the racing or just read the "live reports" :) online?

Lance did most of the pulling once the final selection (and finalish selection, including Basso) was made. He seemed to be rotating off the front here and there for two reasons--first, to let others lead a bit--Mancebo, especially, did some work--and second, a couple of times, to check out the rest of the group. But most of the time it was Lance setting the tempo and pulling the group. Lance tested things a couple of times, with riders 1-4 sticking together up untill the final accleration. After that, within the last kilometer, Lance and Valverde pulled away, with Valverde sitting right on Lance's wheel. Coming to the line, Valverde came around to win what passes for a sprint under those conditions. Lance plainly had enough to close the tiny gap that was developing as Valverde came by, so that they finished at the same time. Lance then made a nice gesture of reaching out and shaking Valverde's hand as he pulled up alongside. But I didn't get the idea that Lance gifted anything. Had he been riding for the stage victory, and only the stage victory, he might well have been able to do it. For example, if he hadn't cared about the time gap to Ullrich, Vino, Kloden, etc., he might have played more cat-and-mouse in the last couple of kilometers, and might thus have had more to contest things at the line. Maybe. Or, had he not cared the slightest bit about tomorrow, he might have been able to go harder earlier, to solo. Maybe. But within the bounds of thinking of the GC today, AND tomorrow, Lance seemed to be going for the win. It's plain that he tried to break the final group apart with his last acceleration--and to the extent that only Valverde could follow he did just that--and he sure looked like he was trying to ride Valverde off his wheel as they pushed for the finish, something he did not manage to do.

I'd say Lance went for the stage, with an eye on the final prize. Valverde held his wheel and beat him to the line. Lance then made a decent sporting gesture, but one which didn't include the gift of a stage win. Or that's how it looked.

[93legendti]

Lance let Valaverde win to gain an ally to share the heavy work in the next few mountain stages.

[e-RICHIE]

i got an email from france, excerpted & pasted here:

=====
e-RICHIE
what a stage. i thought i could run with the
bulls but got skewered at the line. funny, it
happened alot yesterday in pamplona. wacky
spaniards. take care, bub.
lance-issimo

ps i was wearing your socks under my nike socks.

====

need any more proof??!

[Fixed]

e-Richie tells it like it is. Lance is a climber /t.t.rider Valvede is a climber/sprinter Lance lost by less than a wheel but he won much more.i.m.h.o. Cheers

[csb]

Lance let Valaverde win to gain an ally to share the heavy work in the next few mountain stages.



sure, same with rasmussen, he let lance go
so as* to gain an ally




*not the muscle

[gasman]

I wonder if Lance decide it just wasn't worth it to give one last big effort to win the stage since he clearly has his eyes on the prize in Paris.

Pretend that this was the final stage of the Tour . He must win to regain the GC, don't you think he would have given it everything he had and beat Valverde at the line ?
He has a few more stages to finish before Paris.

[dirtdigger88]

what if he did give it everything and still came up short?

Jason

[MartyE]

what if he did give it everything and still came up short?

Jason
the result would be exactly the same as today, he got beaten.

Why is it so difficult to believe that Valverde, who is both a sprinter
and a climber, couldn't beat Lance on a mountain top finish?

I do think that when Lance realized that he could not match
Valverde in the sprint to the line he sat up, looks like a gift
but it wasn't, more like conceding the win.

Marty

[dirtdigger88]

the result would be exactly the same as today, he got beaten.

Why is it so difficult to believe that Valverde, who is both a sprinter
and a climber, couldn't beat Lance on a mountain top finish?

I do think that when Lance realized that he could not match
Valverde in the sprint to the line he sat up, looks like a gift
but it wasn't, more like conceding the win.

Marty

yup-

Jason

[Spinsistah]

Have anyone here actually seen the racing or just read the "live reports" :) online?
I watched it this morning. It didn't look like a gift, I think Lance rode to win but came up short.

[Johny]

i got an email from france, excerpted & pasted here:

=====
e-RICHIE
what a stage. i thought i could run with the
bulls but got skewered at the line. funny, it
happened alot yesterday in pamplona. wacky
spaniards. take care, bub.
lance-issimo

ps i was wearing your socks under my nike socks.

====

need any more proof??!

funny I also got an email from the man today.
====
john-y,
the "stuff" worked so well today. too bad it didn't work for my sprinting. wacky spaniards. take care, bub.
lance-y

ps they would never figure out I hid the "stuff" under e-richie's socks.
====

[gasman]

the result would be exactly the same as today, he got beaten.

Why is it so difficult to believe that Valverde, who is both a sprinter
and a climber, couldn't beat Lance on a mountain top finish?

I do think that when Lance realized that he could not match
Valverde in the sprint to the line he sat up, looks like a gift
but it wasn't, more like conceding the win.

Marty

It sure could have been the same result even if it was for the whole enchilada. I don't mean to take anything away from Valverde.

[Ray]

I watched it this morning. It didn't look like a gift, I think Lance rode to win but came up short.
I also saw it and it WAAAAAY didn't look like a gift. If it was gonna be a gift, Lance wouldn't have kicked like he did a couple hundred meters out. He sat up when he realized he was beat (the overhead view showed that Valverde beat him by a couple of bike lengths), but he was gunning for it until then. This was nothing like last year's stage at La Mongie where Basso won and Lance never even contested it. Or Ventoux in 2000 where he obviously had it won and clearly slowed up to allow Marco to cross the line first. He just got beat in the sprint today, and got everything he wanted out of the stage other than the stage win.

-Ray

[J.M. White]

Re: The final sprint

I didn't see the race, but on the NYT web site Samuel Abt wrote:

"Armstrong did everything but win the stage. He finished second, in a two-man sprint, to Alejandro Valverde, a Spaniard with the Illes Baleares team, obviously slowing at the end to let Valverde cross the line first." (Italics added)

I agree with e-ritchie and the others that this was no gift. I watched the race live and it was apparent to me Valverde had Lance lined up for the final sprint. Valverde was fresher, because he hadn't worked so much at the front. Lance prodded the group along the last 5-6 km in order to put time in on T-MOB and Basso, and he just didn't have anything left at the end. Watch tonite and see the shot of Armstrong standing over his bike at the end--utter exhaustion!

[William]

I watched it this morning. It didn't look like a gift, I think Lance rode to win but came up short.

Say....OCHIKOV!

William ;)

[e-RICHIE]

'just caught the evening session.
no way he gifted the win. he lost
the run-in sprint. why??? because
he led out the entire last 500m on the
tops while valverde was in the hooks,
ready to pounce. ya' gotta sprint in
the hooks.
hey - thanks for listening.
e-RICHIE©™®

[97CSI]

If you watched the entire last 10 miles you will see that Lance did about 75% of the pulling. He cajoled Popovych to do so until he was burned up and then LA did the rest himself. He got a bit of help from Rasmussan and some from Mancebo, but 75% of it was him and the three youngsters followed. So one could say that he 'gave' the win to Valverde by dint of the effort he put in all the way up while Valverde simply sucked the wheel of whomever rode in the third spot. But.....that's bicycle racing at the pinnacle of the sport.

[Johny]

"I tried to get rid of those guys, but maybe it's not like the old days when you make one attack and you ride them off to the finish," Armstrong said. "Perhaps I've lost some of that explosiveness." http://www.velonews.com/tour2005/details/articles/8471.0.html

Valverde-
"A guy like him -- I'm not blowing smoke -- could be the future of cycling. He's a complete rider, a smart rider and a patient rider," said Armstrong, who added that he "gave everything I had" to try to beat the Spaniard in the final sprint.

"I attacked and couldn't go any harder, he's a fast guy," he said. "I wanted the stage win because I haven't won a race yet this year. I'm trying." http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/tdf2005/news/story?id=2106026

[93legendti]

I give Jan a lot of credit. 2 bad crashes in 10 days and most people would be flat on the backs. And George Hincapie!!! Beating climbers such as Heras and Mayo today, even with his work for the team? Amazing!

[e-RICHIE]

If you watched the entire last 10 miles you will see that Lance did about 75% of the pulling. He cajoled Popovych to do so until he was burned up and then LA did the rest himself. He got a bit of help from Rasmussan and some from Mancebo, but 75% of it was him and the three youngsters followed. So one could say that he 'gave' the win to Valverde by dint of the effort he put in all the way up while Valverde simply sucked the wheel of whomever rode in the third spot. But.....that's bicycle racing at the pinnacle of the sport.

snipped:
"...all the way up while Valverde simply sucked the wheel of whomever rode in the third spot."

that's what lance was doing whilst spending the
rest of the race behind his team mates.

[scottcw]

So how do you explain that, before Valverde passes him, Lance looks back over his left shoulder to see where everyone else is and then sits up as Valverde goes by? Not exactly the actions of someone straining for the win.

[e-RICHIE]

So how do you explain that, before Valverde passes him, Lance looks back over his left shoulder to see where everyone else is and then sits up as Valverde goes by? Not exactly the actions of someone straining for the win.


have you ever raced?
they were sprinting for 2 places, 1st and 2nd.
after it was clear that he blew his wad, he conceded
that he was in for second place. furthermore, it was
reported that l.a. spoke to that this a.m. on the oln
broadcast and said he was going for the win and
was beat. he was beat.

[Roy E. Munson]

have you ever raced?

I think this is a key factor in this debate. Regardless of what level you're racing at, you gain insight as to what it's like just by experience. To sit back and pass gospel based on what you read or hear Phil Ligget tell you is horseschit.

[e-RICHIE]

yeah what Roy E. Munson-issimo wrote.

[Tom]

Hey Roy, I never raced but I do know one thing... holy **** were they going fast up that last climb! They were going uphill at the pace I go downhill. I sat there last night with my mouth gaping like Riis used to. Unreal.

[paulh]

I agree with the no-gifters. It looked to me like Lance was clearly going for time over the guys down the climb. He was in front and committed to the front position to drive to the line. If he wanted just the stage win, he had some time to jerk around and try and win a sprint.

I didn't hear what Phil Liggett's comment was. Didn't he used to race back in the 60's?? I think he was going to turn pro before journalism lured him away.

[David Kirk]

Back in my bike shop days my shop used to organize a local road race. I wanted very badly to win this race in front of my hometown crowd. I trained long and hard and felt good for the event.

The race was hilly and we got a good break going with about 6 guys. We come into the finish and I sense my moment and stand and go. I look to my right where I thought everyone was and I have a small gap. I go as hard as I possibly can and then sense someone to my left. Sure enough a guy was there and coming by. I got nipped at the line by the guy on my left. Duh.

This is all fine and good but then the shop owner's girlfriend comes to me and with a very dissappointed tone says "why didn't you pedal harder?". What do you say to that? Sometimes as hard as you can isn't hard enough. She had never raced and could never understand. My best wasn't enough and I "lost".....or at least I got second.

Dave

[e-RICHIE]

i hope you weren't riding on the tops
during that sprint!!

[dirtdigger88]

I think we are getting into one of the biggest downfalls in American sports-

Why do we have the attitude that not winning is wrong- If I gave it my best and came up short- so what- as long as i know I really gave it everything-

it scares me the way sports is presented to our kids- They either are told that winning is everyting or that competition is bad- no middle ground-

***?? my father always asked me after a game- "did you have fun?"

I realize we are talking about pro sports here- but its the same thing- to the US fan Lance must win- if he didnt win he either had an off day or he gifted the win-

BS- he got beat by a better rider on THAT DAY- but the tour isnt about one day- it about the finish in paris-

jason

[William]

I think this is a key factor in this debate. Regardless of what level you're racing at, you gain insight as to what it's like just by experience. To sit back and pass gospel based on what you read or hear Phil Ligget tell you is horseschit.

I've heard Phil say many a time that Sprinters, no matter how tired, always find a way to dig deep when they see the line coming up fast. It's ingrained.

;)

William

[William]

I think we are getting into one of the biggest downfalls in American sports-

Why do we have the attitude that not winning is wrong- If I gave it my best and came up short- so what- as long as i know I really gave it everything-

it scares me the way sports is presented to our kids- They either are told that winning is everyting or that competition is bad- no middle ground-

***?? my father always asked me after a game- "did you have fun?"

I realize we are talking about pro sports here- but its the same thing- to the US fan Lance must win- if he didnt win he either had an off day or he gifted the win-

BS- he got beat by a better rider on THAT DAY- but the tour isnt about one day- it about the finish in paris-

jason

We are ALL winners here!!! :banana:

William ;)

[bostondrunk]

I think we are getting into one of the biggest downfalls in American sports-

Why do we have the attitude that not winning is wrong- If I gave it my best and came up short- so what- as long as i know I really gave it everything-

it scares me the way sports is presented to our kids- They either are told that winning is everyting or that competition is bad- no middle ground-

***?? my father always asked me after a game- "did you have fun?"

I realize we are talking about pro sports here- but its the same thing- to the US fan Lance must win- if he didnt win he either had an off day or he gifted the win-

BS- he got beat by a better rider on THAT DAY- but the tour isnt about one day- it about the finish in paris-

jason

An important lesson for all our kids to learn..........
"Second place is the first loser"
and
"Those who say winning isn't everything....have never won.."

haha;) :D

[Kirk Pacenti]

I think we are getting into one of the biggest downfalls in American sports-

Why do we have the attitude that not winning is wrong- If I gave it my best and came up short- so what- as long as i know I really gave it everything-

jason


Jason,

I agree. If you want to get some great perspective on this, read anything by John Wooden, espeacially "They Call Me Coach". He really has a way of illustrating what is important in sport and life.

[bulliedawg]

Jason,

I agree. If you want to get some great perspective on this, read anything by John Wooden, espeacially "They Call Me Coach". He really has a way of illustrating what is important in sport and life.

Putting bad words on John Wooden is about like putting bad words on Uncle Sam, but I will anyway, because I'm feeling frisky.

The Wizard of Westwood deserves the accolades he gets, but there is little doubt there was plenty of money being funneled to his players. Also, some of John Wooden's basketball coaching progeny grew up to be pretty crooked.

[Kirk Pacenti]

[QUOTE=
The Wizard of Westwood deserves the accolades he gets, but there is little doubt there was plenty of money being funneled to his players. Also, some of John Wooden's basketball coaching progeny grew up to be pretty crooked.[/QUOTE]

Personally I hold John Wooden in higher regard than Uncle Sam. ;)
Further more, I am not sure what his players getting "paid" and then becoming crooks has to do with his personal philosophy about sport and life.

I have heard it said, and happen to agree; "That you can not judge a philosophy based on it's abuse". I'd hate to think that anyone judged Christianity based on the actions of our current president.


Best regards,

[97CSI]

I have heard it said, and happen to agree; "that you can not judge a philosophy based on it's abuse". I'd hate to think that anyone judged Christianity based on the actions of our current president.Or the so-called 'christian' right-wing, in general.

[Fixed]

'just caught the evening session.
no way he gifted the win. he lost
the run-in sprint. why??? because
he led out the entire last 500m on the
tops while valverde was in the hooks,
ready to pounce. ya' gotta sprint in
the hooks.
hey - thanks for listening.
e-RICHIE©™®
He hit the nail on the head.cheers

[e-RICHIE]

yeah what fixed-issimo wrote.

[ClutchCargo]

I think we are getting into one of the biggest downfalls in American sports . . .

I realize we are talking about pro sports here- but its the same thing- to the US fan Lance must win- if he didnt win he either had an off day or he gifted the win-



all due respect, digman, but I can't see how you infer that from this thread's debate. no one here's saying that Lance MUST win -- or that his extraordinary efforts in stage 10 were any the less for his crossing the line second. fact is, he [AND his team, of course] rode a remarkable race. of course, some here like to think (out of hero worship, maybe?) that he gave the win; others thought he tried to win it and got beat to the line. but that's all I read into it.

I'll give you this, though: pro sports ain't little league.

cheers, mate!

[JohnS]

all due respect, digman, but I can't see how you infer that from this thread's debate. no one here's saying that Lance MUST win -- or that his extraordinary efforts in stage 10 were any the less for his crossing the line second. fact is, he [AND his team, of course] rode a remarkable race. of course, some here like to think (out of hero worship, maybe?) that he gave the win; others thought he tried to win it and got beat to the line. but that's all I read into it.

I'll give you this, though: pro sports ain't little league.

cheers, mate!
I don't think that he's really talking about the people on this forum, but more the casual US fan that wouldn't know a Trek from a Serotta.

[Fixed]

Hey anyone know when the last tour winner had no stage wins?Cheers

[dirtdigger88]

Hey anyone know when the last tour winner had no stage wins?Cheers

dont know- maybe this can help

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/veloarchive/races/tour/

Jason

[Dr. Doofus]

lemond 1990

[Fixed]

We might be heading towards a U.S.repeat.But I don't think Lance wants to go out without a stage win it almost happend to him a couple of years ago but he won the last t.t..Cheers P.S. Man that Doc is smart.

[Ray]

We might be heading towards a U.S.repeat.But I don't think Lance wants to go out without a stage win it almost happend to him a couple of years ago but he won the last t.t..Cheers P.S. Man that Doc is smart.
I think we could have a repeat of him only winning the last TT. There are very few opportunities for him to take a win in the mountains and, as dominant as he is, he hasn't really attacked and ridden alone in the mountains since '01 or '02. Which makes a mountain stage possible but not that likely. But he's a real good bet in the final TT, particularly with Zabriskie out.

-Ray