Going fast...downhill

[CPP]

I see alot of forum threads about climbing. Standing? Sitting? Cadence? But, since a couple of months, I would say that there should be more talk about descending. Yesterday's Tour of CO, today's Vuelta, and of course the Giro and TDF are proof of the fact that "what goes up, must come down" And, If you can go down fast, all the better!

[false_Aest]

Nothing better than a paceline downhill.


Total trust that the dude in front knows how to handle himself.
A prayer that wind won't kick-up on a hairpin.
Back aches because your chest is touching the handlebar.


Faith, in my opinion, is what makes a fast descent.

[Climb01742]

phil and paul reported yesterday that in the tour, thor hit 112km/hr on a descent. all i can say is, yikes.

[Kevan]

The condition of Westchester roads ain't what they used to be. That, and with every passing year, I get wiser. Some.

[rice rocket]

It's all about confidence in yourself and your bike. Start with a good bike, and it's much easier. While I believe most bike "technology" is not much more than marketing hype, my current bike with 1.5" lower bearing is the best descending bike I've ridden, period. That extra stiffness in the fork/steerer interface seems to make a lot of difference. I've taken it near 60 mph in total confidence.

Anyways, eyes up, look ahead. Plan ahead. Don't make last minute corrections. Descend in the drops, keep your center of gravity low. Don't brake mid corner. Use the whole width of the road.

[fiamme red]

phil and paul reported yesterday that in the tour, thor hit 112km/hr on a descent. all i can say is, yikes.70 mph? The usual hyperbole from Phil and Paul, I'd say.

[CPP]

I'm not asking how to go fast downhill.

I'm just pointing out that it is just as important as going fast uphill.

Actually, I remember, back in the old Coors Classic days, hearing about how bad the Colombians were at going dowhnhill.

[Climb01742]

70 mph? The usual hyperbole from Phil and Paul, I'd say.

maybe but FWIW, they said that's what the garmin mechanics pulled off of thor's computer. wasn't sean yates reputed to have gone that fast?

[BillG]

Paolo Salvodelli! Sammy Sanchez! Sean Yates! My favorites. I love watching skilled descending.

[BillG]

And sprinters like Thor are often the best descenders! They have the weight and the bike handling skills.

[David Kirk]

70 mph? The usual hyperbole from Phil and Paul, I'd say.

I've wondered about that. How fast do they really go?

The steepness of roads is pretty well controlled and it's very rare that a paved road has more than a 20% grade. It of course happens but it's by no means common and they never build roads this steep to service a ski area as they are near impossible to plow in the winter.

That said - I've ridden some roads with extended sections of straight clear road and a 20% grade and try as I might I could never get past 62 mph. A smaller rider with less drag would go a bit faster but it doesn't seem like that much. If my riding buddies and I raced down these hills I was always at the front or near it and the smaller/more aero riders didn't pull away.

All this makes me wonder how fast the Tour riders could go seeing as even the heaviest riders are lighter than I am at 185 pounds. When I hear Phil and Paul saying that the riders are going 70 mph it makes me say 'hmmm?'

dave

[frisbie]

70 miles an hour!...blind faith. Id rather be the fastest billiegoat in the pack.

[benb]

I have this argument with non cyclists every year during/after the Tour after they hear Phil & Paul mention some guys are going 70mph or faster in the tour.

I have a really hard time believing it from what I have rode here in the US and based on the published Gradients & maps of the famous European climbs.. they just don't seem to have steep enough sections that are straight for long enough to get to those speeds, and they are fairly light riders as well.

I wouldn't say I'd believe something that came off someones cyclocomputer either.. if you believe those I've regularly topped 100mph.

But that is me.. the best I've managed is 50mph, in a race, in a massive pack where I was definitely getting pulled along by a massive bubble of riders.

If you want to go fast downhill the things I can think of that are big helps are:

- A good fork & headtube setup.. (I think the new tapered CF front ends really do perform better at my weight)
- Good bike fit especially not having the bike be too stretched out and/or the bars being too high
- A good stiff wheelset that does not have "aero" rims, so you don't have to worry about lateral stiffness affecting handling and don't have to worry as much about crosswinds scaring you
- Read up on motorcycle riding techniques.. because knowing where to look & how exactly bikes turn is going to make you feel much more secure turning at high speed.

edit: Actually it was my wife this year.. she got really really really mad when she told me someone did 75mph in the tour this year (she heard it at work) and I immediately said Phil and Paul were exaggerating again.

[frisbie]

50 is flying...i get over 40 and start feeling uncomfortable. Am i a wimp?

[CPP]

I have a friend who was an ex-pro. I was following him in his team car at the Dauphiné one year. He was in the company of Fingon on a very fast downhill heading towards the stage finish in Grenoble. I couldn't believe how fast we were going in the car and we were being distanced by the two riders. I mentioned this to him at the finish and he said that his computer read 95ks max speed. The road was really narrow as well! Talk about balls!!!!

[rice rocket]

70 miles an hour!...blind faith. Id rather be the fastest billiegoat in the pack.

Ask Andy Schleck how well that plan worked.

[firerescuefin]

I've hit 62...really, so Thor's speed doesn't seem impossible. That was the stage where he bridged the 2 off the front ON THE DOWNHILL, and that info was pulled from his Garmin. Good descending bike goes a long way. The more you do it, the more it slows down, the faster you get. Pretty rare for me to be nervous and that allows you to ride rather than worry about the consequences if something goes wrong. If your scared or worried, bad things are going to happen if you push it. Someone wrote...don't brake in the turn. Sometimes that's not an option (not braking) and there is certainly a method for that as well.

[sg8357]

All this makes me wonder how fast the Tour riders could go seeing as even the heaviest riders are lighter than I am at 185 pounds. When I hear Phil and Paul saying that the riders are going 70 mph it makes me say 'hmmm?'

dave

They have special downhill bikes, my ridding buddy Tim has one.
The storied names in down hill road bikes are Collegiate and the
incomparable Varsity. The Varsity has more road hugging weight
than a team car load of RC5a's

[JMerring]

i'd imagine a pro on a steep enough descent with a long enough straight could do that (70mph). i've topped out at 50.2mph (and not with max effort, i might add) on a not too long, not too steep road in atlanta, with no assistance from any car or bike or anything else.

[benb]

I believe low 60s.. it's the claims of >70mph that I have a hard time with.

The times I've hit 50 I definitely believe I could have gone faster.. one time was in a race and I didn't feel safe with so many riders on the road going that fast.

The other place I have hit 50 I didn't feel safe due to the lack of stopping capability on a road bicycle.. there were places where cars could cross my path. (That was actually at Smuggler's Notch in VT.)

[frisbie]

Evans kept up with the pace in the hills...enough. Schleck needs to do more push ups...was out muscled by a better athelete.

[false_Aest]

Evans kept up with the pace in the hills...enough. Schleck needs to do more push ups...was out muscled by a better athelete.

Schlecks need "ganas" first.


I will mail them a copy of "Stand and Deliver."

[Ralph]

Scares heck out of me just thinking about it.

[rustychain]

I once was clocked by a policeman at 64mph. Don't think that was accurate but still at whatever the actual speed was is was not fun. Bumps, even small ones kept it more like riding a bucking horse then riding a bike. Often hit the low 50's and felt comfortable. I'll leave 70mph to somebody else.

[christian]

I have hit 64 mph on the east side of the Fedaia pass. That's basically terminal speed on a paved road - not many steeper and longer than that. 70 is likely hyperbole.

[BillG]

Road surface makes a huge difference to perceived speed and perceived danger. I hit 50 going down a crappy but not too crappy Vermont road last week and it felt fast but not too fast. I hit nearly 50 going down a dirt road, behind a tandem that went well over 50 in Vermont in May. I ejected my bottles -- literally and figuratively. Thirty on a dirt road feels a lot faster than 50 on a paved road New England road, and much much faster than 50 on a smooth road!

[firerescuefin]

The same people that question whether one of the better descenders in the sport, a world time champion, a yellow jersey holder, Green Jersey winner, and a many time Grand Tour stage winner may be able to hit 70 on a descent (where he bridged a large gap and won the stage)....are the same people that critique Andy Schlecks bike set up.....funny.

[fiamme red]

The same people that question whether one of the better descenders in the sport, a world time champion, a yellow jersey holder, Green Jersey winner, and a many time Grand Tour stage winner may be able to hit 70 on a descent (where he bridged a large gap and won the stage)....are the same people that critique Andy Schlecks bike set up.....funny.So why can't pros hit 80 or 90 or 100 (mph, not kph)?

[rice rocket]

Because riders aren't stick thin enough. Wiggo, maybe.

[firerescuefin]

So why can't pros hit 80 or 90 or 100 (mph, not kph)?

Your the "hyperbole" guy....and I am not the one that questions Andy's bike set up. If I can hit 62, then imagining a rider going slightly faster under different conditions is not beyond my comprehension.

[fiamme red]

Your the "hyperbole" guy....and I am not the one that questions Andy's bike set up. If I can hit 62, then imagining a rider going slightly faster under different conditions is not beyond my comprehension.I believe that it's quite possible to hit 70 mph on a road descent, provided that the road is straight for a long distance and very steep. I don't know any descent in the Tour that fits this description.

[firerescuefin]

I believe that it's quite possible to hit 70 mph on a road descent, provided that the road is straight for a long distance and very steep. I don't know any descent in the Tour that fits this description.

Context...Stage 13....at the top of the Col de Bisque...over 2 minutes behind Roy....over a minute behind Moncoutie.....Catches Moncoutie halfway down, gets within 30 seconds of Roy at the base of the climb.....2 professional bike riders that are trying to win a grand tour stage (you think they were holding back)....so no, it doesn't seem outrageous to me.

[Lovetoclimb]

50 is flying...i get over 40 and start feeling uncomfortable. Am i a wimp?

Does not make you a wimp. I feel the same way. 30+ is exhilarating, 40+ begins to bring on concerns over how bad the crash could be, 50+ I begin to question why I am going that fast.

[fiamme red]

Context...Stage 13....at the top of the Col de Bisque...over 2 minutes behind Roy....over a minute behind Moncoutie.....Catches Moncoutie halfway down, gets within 30 seconds of Roy at the base of the climb.....2 professional bike riders that are trying to win a grand tour stage (you think they were holding back)....so no, it doesn't seem outrageous to me.To reach 70 mph in a 53x11, you have to pedal at 184 rpm, obviously not possible in an aero tuck. So Thor would have to rely on the force of gravity alone.

You can't fight physics. I'm pretty sure that the descent of Col D'Aubisque to the east isn't straight or steep enough to allow even the most fearless, skilled, and motivated descender to reach 70 mph.

[zap]

40mph+ grab that bottle for a quick drink.
50mph+ ok, tuck, hands on stem, chin on hands, elbows in, knees in....
60mph+ ohhhhh, this is fast.
70mph+ ........damn contact lenses............................................ ...........

[BillG]

40mph+ grab that bottle for a quick drink.
50mph+ ok, tuck, hands on stem, chin on hands, elbows in, knees in....
60mph+ ohhhhh, this is fast.
70mph+ ........damn contact lenses............................................ ...........

It's like the levels of suffering while climbing:


1. Pain in the jaw
2. Drooling
3. Crying
4. Praying to the Madonna
5. Seeing the Madonna

[Karin Kirk]

It's like the levels of suffering while climbing:


1. Pain in the jaw
2. Drooling
3. Crying
4. Praying to the Madonna
5. Seeing the Madonna
6. Singing Madonna :p

[Lovetoclimb]

I also think descending through technical turns and switch-backs, off camber sections, etc are all as important as maintaining speed on straighter sections. Knowing how to take turns, when to apply brakes, and how to read the wet or gravel on the road are all critical factors. All of the above were things I never really thought too much about until some crashes that opened my eyes to the pain of contacting the tarmac!

[gone]

One thing that has always surprised me is top pros (Ullrich leaps to mind) who are lousy descenders. I recall a quote by Andy Hampsten quoting Eddy Merckx to the effect of "what's the point of turning yourself inside out to gain 30 seconds on a climb only to lose it on a descent".

Like anything else, it's a skill that's developed through practice.

The good descenders (Savodelli) are beautiful to watch.

[BillG]

6. Singing Madonna :p

7. Singing "Get me back on the f-ing bike" to the tune of Material Girl.

[David Kirk]

I believe that it's quite possible to hit 70 mph on a road descent, provided that the road is straight for a long distance and very steep. I don't know any descent in the Tour that fits this description.


This is what I wonder about.

* Roads are only so steep - a grade of about 20% is the max.

* Steep straight sections are only so long (makes sense when you think about it).

* after a relatively short distance the rider will hit the terminal velocity a given grade. I don't pretend to know where the break point is but I'll bet it safe to say the forces of gravity and air/rolling resistance are balanced within about 1/2 mile or so (a wild assed guess). Meaning that the rider will hit their max speed at 1/2 mile and even if the road is the same grade and continues to be straight that they will go no faster. We see this all the time on shallower grades where we can coast at 20 mph forever down a 3% grade. We don't go faster if the hill is miles long - we go 20 because that is where the two forces balance. The situation is the same - just the numbers are different. It's like the terminal velocity of a sky diver - they don't drop at a faster speed because they jump out further from the ground. The fall at a given rate until they pull the cord.

* I think it may be possible to hit 70 or even more given the right conditions (temp, wind, humidity...etc) but I'll bet it's extremely rare. I think one would need more than a 20% grade to do it and it would need to be long enough to get up to speed and it would need to be straight enough to just let it run.

Interesting stuff.

Dave

[Chance]

.

[jlwdm]

...

The good descenders (Savodelli) are beautiful to watch.

The scientific limits of speed make some sense but then you watch Savodelli easily out descend the peloton you realize there is more to it than science.

Jeff

[jgspin]

I've not even cracked 50 mph yet; 47.9 mph is the fastest I've descended. If the roads were closed to cars and I grew bigger cajones and carried 5 full bottles I might one day get 51 mph. But I'm a bit of a chicken and just keep the risks at a minimum so I can ride another day. 70 mph is just in my dreams.

[Chance]

I'm not asking how to go fast downhill.

I'm just pointing out that it is just as important as going fast uphill.

Actually, I remember, back in the old Coors Classic days, hearing about how bad the Colombians were at going dowhnhill.
When cyclists often descend 5 to 10 times faster than they climb influence on total time is not as great. Otherwise you make a great point. All time gain is of value. It’s just that a 10% improvement in climbing speed normally represents much more time than a 10% improvement in descending speed.

[Chance]

The scientific limits of speed make some sense but then you watch Savodelli easily out descend the peloton you realize there is more to it than science.

Jeff
Hitting 70 MPH is not scientifically impossible at all. However, a good tail wind can make more of a difference than extreme grades.

At very high bike speeds rolling resistance is comparatively minor so terminal speed mostly boils down to wind drag versus gravity working through road slope. At 70 MPH with a 20 MPH tail wind the rider only sees a 50 MPH relative wind speed. And 50 MPH can be achieved without wind by many riders with grades well below 20 percent. If not for a tail wind hitting 70 MPH would require about twice the slope as 50 MPH which makes it extremely unlikely.

[fiamme red]

The scientific limits of speed make some sense but then you watch Savodelli easily out descend the peloton you realize there is more to it than science.

JeffBut did he outdistance the other riders on long, straight downhill stretches or the twisty, technical descents with hairpin curves that are common in the Giro? I think the latter. It can be explained simply that the other riders braked more than he did on those descents (and were less aerodynamic).

[bironi]

Anyone have a video link of the Falcon descending. I've heard, but not seen.

Thanks in advance. :beer:

[CPP]

It's not the falcon, but Spatacus's descent here is quite good
http://www.youtube.com/embed/RxXqQqAc2pA
I also saw Cunego and Sargans making an incredible descent at the Tour of Suisse's stage into Grindewald

[Dlevy05]

I also think descending through technical turns and switch-backs, off camber sections, etc are all as important as maintaining speed on straighter sections. Knowing how to take turns, when to apply brakes, and how to read the wet or gravel on the road are all critical factors. All of the above were things I never really thought too much about until some crashes that opened my eyes to the pain of contacting the tarmac!


I'm surprise it took three pages for this to come up. Technical skills are what I consider to be THE important factor in maintaining fast speeds downhill. Most downhills aren't balls out on an extremely steep road that's paved to perfection. They're winding switchbacks, with less than par road conditions.

Technical skills under these conditions are what matters. Learning to brake to control sliding tires, shifting your weight to different corners of the bike to turn efficiently, learning when to let off the pedals, and slam your weight down on them the second you're upright enough so that they won't hit....

These are the reasons why I love downhill riding. It can be very stimulating and technical.

[BillG]

I'm surprise it took three pages for this to come up. Technical skills are what I consider to be THE important factor in maintaining fast speeds downhill. Most downhills aren't balls out on an extremely steep road that's paved to perfection. They're winding switchbacks, with less than par road conditions.

Technical skills under these conditions are what matters. Learning to brake to control sliding tires, shifting your weight to different corners of the bike to turn efficiently, learning when to let off the pedals, and slam your weight down on them the second you're upright enough so that they won't hit....

These are the reasons why I love downhill riding. It can be very stimulating and technical.

This is what Falco was so incredible. He doesn't look like he's doing crazy descending. He just goes faster because all his lines are perfect and he hardly brakes.

[DHallerman]

50 is flying...i get over 40 and start feeling uncomfortable. Am i a wimp?

As a recreational cyclist -- never a racer -- my level of comfort or discomfort at speed depends on several factors:


Condition of road surface
Sight lines for cars and other cyclists
Amount of traffic and cross roads
Weather conditions (dry being obviously better than wet)
How many other cyclists are close to me, and my expectation of their skill level
How I'm feeling that day, that moment (more warmed up but not tired is best)
Which of my bikes I'm riding


That said, the fastest I've ever gone is about 47 mph -- and that on a rural road in Vermont with tremendous sight lines and a smooth surface.

Dave, who is happy when a ride includes a stretch with a max speed over 40 mph

[Ti Designs]

A higher top speed is oddly not as useful in racing as you might think. Top finishing speed is worth all the work you put into it, but during a race it's wasting a lot of power. It takes far more power to go 1 mph faster at 40 mph than it does to go 5 mph faster at 20 mph, so the average speed turns out to be lower. A number of years ago before a stage race that had a time trial a few riders came into the shop for cassettes with 11's. There was a downhill section and they said they could push the 11. Those riders turned in some of the slowest times. All that said, I keep a 55x11 on my bike. I don't race and I would never let my racers keep that stupid gear on their bikes, but if they let me sneak away before a downhill town line...

[soulspinner]

This is what Falco was so incredible. He doesn't look like he's doing crazy descending. He just goes faster because all his lines are perfect and he hardly brakes.

+1, it looks so effortless....

[bironi]

+1, it looks so effortless....

Sorry to be redundant, but is there any video of the Falcon descending?

Thanks in advance.

[gone]

Sorry to be redundant, but is there any video of the Falcon descending?

Thanks in advance.

I haven't been able to find a video of it but Stage 19 of the 2005 Giro d'Italia was pretty impressive. If I recall, Il Falco was dropped on the last climb by Jose Rujano, Simoni and di Luca by about 2 minutes. He caught them and then some on the descent and ended up finishing more than a minute ahead. Really impressive to watch.

[bironi]

I haven't been able to find a video of it but Stage 19 of the 2005 Giro d'Italia was pretty impressive. If I recall, Il Falco was dropped on the last climb by Jose Rujano, Simoni and di Luca by about 2 minutes. He caught them and then some on the descent and ended up finishing more than a minute ahead. Really impressive to watch.

Thank you very much. I just plugged in:

Stage 19 of the 2005 Giro d'Italia

and up popped the video link

Byron :beer:

[CPP]

Here is the video of Cunego's descent at the tour de Suisse. With great British commentary!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtpQ_7Bj_YM&feature=related

[gone]

Thank you very much. I just plugged in:

Stage 19 of the 2005 Giro d'Italia

and up popped the video link

Byron :beer:

Ah yes, google is your friend :D

Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-VrcNqQ9ak) is the link.

[redir]

At 200lbs I've been given the gift of gravity and love every minute of it. There was once a really nicely paved road near me that I hit 63MPH on. I am pretty sure I could have gone faster, I simply didn't have the baws to do it. This road droped right off the side of a mountain and had no turns on it and no drive ways so it was 'relatively' save. Now unfortunately there are drive ways and one road coming in so I will never go that fast on that road again.

When cyclists often descend 5 to 10 times faster than they climb influence on total time is not as great. Otherwise you make a great point. All time gain is of value. It’s just that a 10% improvement in climbing speed normally represents much more time than a 10% improvement in descending speed.

I've done a few mountainous races, some stage races in the mountains and I would have to say this is true. Unless you plan on going off the front, trying to organize a brake or if the finish is not to far from the descent then there's no sense in attacking down a hill just to regroup and get back in the draft at the bottom.

In races though I always get off the front on a descent so that I can have free range over the road and don't get caught up in crashes.

[bironi]

Here is the video of Cunego's descent at the tour de Suisse. With great British commentary!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtpQ_7Bj_YM&feature=related

Thanks. That was great. :beer:

[c-record]

Agreed, ~7 minutes of time well spent for me on the video. Thanks!

[Chance]

Here is the video of Cunego's descent at the tour de Suisse. With great British commentary!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtpQ_7Bj_YM&feature=related
Thanks. Great video.

Is it a 10.4 KM descend in approximately 12 minutes? If so, that works to just above 30 MPH average to the finish line.

Towards the end the commentator says they are going in the 50s which must mean kilometers per hour. That puts it in the 30s in MPH. It's not 70 MPH but quite an achievement on average considering the route and narrow road.

[CPP]

QUOTE=Lovetoclimb]I also think descending through technical turns and switch-backs, off camber sections, etc are all as important as maintaining speed on straighter sections. Knowing how to take turns, when to apply brakes, and how to read the wet or gravel on the road are all critical factors. [/QUOTE]

For me, the Cunego video shows exactly this! Rarely are the other side of big climbs straight and smooth to the finish line. Technique rules!