Serotta, Seven, and Moots - Ti

[mlindy]

Is there a big difference (ride, quality, etc.) among Serotta, Seven, and Moots in terms of the Ti bikes?

[Idris Icabod]

Serotta and Seven are custom and ride can be tuned to rider by choice of tubing etc. I have a stock Moots, not sure if they do custom anymore. I don't think you can go wrong with any of these, they all know how to build a nice frame.

[rnhood]

This subject has been beaten to death. Probably the biggest difference is cost. They are all good frames with a good chance of being your dream bike. Moots will excel on construction...or perhaps I should say weld quality, but all three are get excellent marks from owners, as well as a number of other Ti bikes on the market. Test ride if you can.

[mgm777]

All three are World Class bicycles. However, a Moots has ride characteristics that are distinctive to the particular model you choose. On the other hand, if you choose to buy a new Serotta or Seven, you can spec it to ride just as you wish.

[sarion]

All of them have excellent quality Ti bikes.
Moots focused on titanium bikes only,and you can have more choice for different models and materials (steel, carbon) with Serotta or Seven.

[dd74]

What I've never understood is how Ti is supposed to feel when compared to steel. Ex. if a guy specs out an all-steel frame from a builder, then specs the same dimension frame in Ti from that builder (let's say the builder is Serotta), what would be the difference in ride quality and rigidity between the two frames?

[tv_vt]

Check out Tom Kellogg's Spectrum Cycles website. Think there's a good write-up on Ti vs Steel frames and their ride characteristics on that site.

[alastair]

I'd say it's horses for courses, and you can't really go wrong. Of the three, I only own one; and have only ridden two. I think it's safe to say that none of them are defined by a particular ride "charactaristic". It's a bit like the old cliches about frame materials. I think it's pretty accepted thesedays that a skilled builder can get whatever ride character you want out of any material. Likewise, Seven or Serotta could make your ti' bike ride whatever way you want...

[DRietz]

Eriksen.


'nuff said.

[oldpotatoe]

Serotta and Seven are custom and ride can be tuned to rider by choice of tubing etc. I have a stock Moots, not sure if they do custom anymore. I don't think you can go wrong with any of these, they all know how to build a nice frame.

Yes Moots does custom if called for. As for the 'ride', ride each and tell us. It is all subjective just like my subjective evaluation of Moots being the very best of the bunch. I have sold just about all the ti frames at one time or another, sell a lot of Moots now. I also like Moots 'one material' philosophy for a bicycle frame.

[jr59]

I'd say they are all about equal, as in a VERY,VERY high quality Ti frame.

You can also add Ericksen, Holland, and Spectrum.

I have ridden a lot of these bikes, most all!

I would bet, in a blind test, with all bikes being unmarked, and built out the same. You would be hard to tell the difference. They are ALL that GOOD!

Every one has their selling points, mostly small points that in the long run you wouldn't be able to feel. To me, they are just selling points.
Like I said in a blind test, I doubt anyone could tell the difference. If all built a frame for the same person and built the bike out the same.

Some very good Ti builders we are talking about here! My hats off to all of them!

[geopedler]

Eriksen.


'nuff said.


AMEN Brother!

[rePhil]

When I was shopping for Ti it came down to something some would consider a trivial non issue. Welded seat post clamp and bottle bosses.Sealed the deal for me, even over butted tubing.

[ts0673]

I'd also throw in Firefly...some of the guys from IF, notably Jamie and Tyler. They work in Stainless Steel and Ti...quality looks up there with the best of them. Fully custom of course...

http://fireflybicycles.com/

[Dave B]

I have had a Moots, Serotta, Colnago CT-1, and an IF Cj Ti (2 of them) and they all were great. The Colnago did have a carbon rear end and that was nice, but it really is what you prefer in your bike. I mean more specifically how it looks. With Moots, well you get the Moots shot peen finish. You can have them paint it, but they are all the same look.

I love Moots, the bikes, the history, the majority of the experiences I have had with the staff. Same with IF. I did not have the highest end Serotta Ti (it was a fierte) and none of my Ti bikes were made for me, all used.

With regards to material the only bike I have ever felt a real difference was a carbon bike. Less road vibration, like letting 5 psi out of your tires. Not good or bad, just different.

I think after all of the bikes I have ridden the truest thing for me is how you connected to the experience working with the company/builder. I have lost a lot of that and really no longer am riding. However, the bikes I loved the most were a connection to the builders and experiences I had.

Find something personal that you like about a company or builder and allow that relationship to grow. I bet money the bike means more to you then w/o that experience.

[djg]

Dunno. All have fans. In choosing my most recent Ti bike I went with the source that had worked for me in the past. Serotta offered up a sweet short-term deal for owners club members on the GP Suisse cross bikes, I had faith in Serotta, so I bought one. I've had some of my own issues these past two seasons, but not with the bike -- it's a killer bike.

If I were in the market for another Ti frame, and were pushed to consider another source, I think I'd drive up to PA and have Tom K measure me up for a Spectrum.

[oldpotatoe]

When I was shopping for Ti it came down to something some would consider a trivial non issue. Welded seat post clamp and bottle bosses.Sealed the deal for me, even over butted tubing.

Guess you got a Moots.

[Kontact]

We sell Seven and Serotta. We also see a lot of Moots for service. They all seem to be more alike than different in terms of tube diameter and geometry - which seems to set tone more than Seven's curvy stays.

For the most part, titanium bikes have kind of settled down into certain shapes - no one uses tapered tubes anymore and Lynskey is the only common frame builder that does much tube profile shaping. TK claims that continuous diameter round tubes offer the best ride, and that butting does little to change the ride on Ti.

Given all that, if the tubes are round, the same diameter, same alloy and have .9mm walls at the welds, I don't know how much variation in "feel" anyone could expect.

[bozman]

all mentioned make a fine bike. I like this one.

[crossjunkee]

I'll put my Spectrum up against ANY Ti bike made, period end of statement! If I didn't have a Spectrum, the Legend Ti would be at the top of my list. I think you're looking at brands and not the fitting process. You really need to be asking WHO can put you on the best custom Ti, and what they sell. I think to get the most out of a custom bike, you need a lot miles, and know what you're looking for in ride quality. You also need a good bike fitter, this forum is loaded with them. It's not about welds, color of stickers, and head badges.

[crossjunkee]

We sell Seven and Serotta. We also see a lot of Moots for service. They all seem to be more alike than different in terms of tube diameter and geometry - which seems to set tone more than Seven's curvy stays.

For the most part, titanium bikes have kind of settled down into certain shapes - no one uses tapered tubes anymore and Lynskey is the only common frame builder that does much tube profile shaping. TK claims that continuous diameter round tubes offer the best ride, and that butting does little to change the ride on Ti.

Given all that, if the tubes are round, the same diameter, same alloy and have .9mm walls at the welds, I don't know how much variation in "feel" anyone could expect.

You should see the new Eriksen 1" chainstays, beautiful.

[Idris Icabod]

When I was shopping for Ti it came down to something some would consider a trivial non issue. Welded seat post clamp and bottle bosses.Sealed the deal for me, even over butted tubing.

This is exactly the reason I chose Moots over Seven (no local Serotta dealer). The Seven had the biggest ugliest seat post clamp I had ever seen.

[93legendti]

I'll put my Spectrum up against ANY Ti bike made, period end of statement! If I didn't have a Spectrum, the Legend Ti would be at the top of my list. I think you're looking at brands and not the fitting process. You really need to be asking WHO can put you on the best custom Ti, and what they sell. I think to get the most out of a custom bike, you need a lot miles, and know what you're looking for in ride quality. You also need a good bike fitter, this forum is loaded with them. It's not about welds, color of stickers, and head badges.
I've ridden and owned lots of ti bikes: Litespeed, Moots, Spectrum and many Serotta ti models (Legend ti, Concours, Fierte Ti and Legend ST).

The Legend ST and Spectrum are fantastic bikes.

[old_fat_and_slow]

Why is there never any love for Lynskeys on this forum?

I don't own one, but they sure look nice (to me).

[Ramjm_2000]

Proud owner of multiple Lynskeys (L3 and very recently a Helix). I suspect the nontraditional tube shapes might be a turn off to some but IMO look gorgeous. I've owned IF, Moots, Dean and Serotta and have to say each had their strengths and things i didnt like. In my case, I felt the Lynskeys provided the ride characteristics at the weight I wanted (better then any of my previous bikes). Just my two cents...

[old_fat_and_slow]

Proud owner of multiple Lynskeys (L3 and very recently a Helix). I suspect the nontraditional tube shapes might be a turn off to some but IMO look gorgeous. I've owned IF, Moots, Dean and Serotta and have to say each had their strengths and things i didnt like. In my case, I felt the Lynskeys provided the ride characteristics at the weight I wanted (better then any of my previous bikes). Just my two cents...

Helixes are da' bomb! Post pictures when yah gettah chance.

[Jeff N.]

This is exactly the reason I chose Moots over Seven (no local Serotta dealer). The Seven had the biggest ugliest seat post clamp I had ever seen.I've always preferred a clamp over welded-on binder, even if a welded binder is an option. 1.) you can color-match it to your headset with an aftermarket clamp for a more balanced aesthetic. 2.)What'll you do if the welded binder becomes fatigued? I know, probably not likely, but still something to ponder. Jeff N.

[Idris Icabod]

What'll you do if the welded binder becomes fatigued? I know, probably not likely, but still something to ponder. Jeff N.

Moots has a lifetime warranty so I'd imagine this would be covered. I do like the suggestion of colour matching though, you must work in marketing.

[sg8357]

Guess you got a Moots.

Or a Habanero.

No rivnuts or seat clamps on those either.
From those skilled builders of the DF-21 antiship MRBM. :)

http://www.habcycles.com/road.html

[mtb_frk]

What I've never understood is how Ti is supposed to feel when compared to steel. Ex. if a guy specs out an all-steel frame from a builder, then specs the same dimension frame in Ti from that builder (let's say the builder is Serotta), what would be the difference in ride quality and rigidity between the two frames?

I did this for the most part. I have a Seven Ti/Carbon and Quiring Steel. The Seven is a geared 29er mtb, and the Quiring is a SS 29er. Pretty similar geometry. I dont know that I notice a huge difference between bikes. Maybe a small difference when I am on the SS not much though, I have never ridden them back to back. Seems like I start riding and I dont really pay much attention to the feel. I did notice getting a new wheelset on the SS really helped the ride quite a bit. It for sure made the bike ride much better.

[Elefantino]

FWIW, although Seven or Moots have nice ti bikes, they do not have Forum kits. :banana:

Just sayin'.

[Idris Icabod]

FWIW, although Seven or Moots have nice ti bikes, they do not have Forum kits. :banana:

Just sayin'.

If you buy a Moots and join the owners club they send you a jersey for free!

Their forum is really poor though!

[Pete Serotta]

If you buy a Moots and join the owners club they send you a jersey for free!

Their forum is really poor though!

For the rest of the year, I will insure you get a jersey free - if you join peace of mind club and take delivery of a new Serotta. :) :)

PETE

[happycampyer]

If you buy a Moots and join the owners club they send you a jersey for free!When they first introduced the owner's club jerseys they were free, but I think for a while now they offer them at a discount (I think the cost is now $35).

[hookookadoo]

Yes Moots does custom if called for. As for the 'ride', ride each and tell us. It is all subjective just like my subjective evaluation of Moots being the very best of the bunch. I have sold just about all the ti frames at one time or another, sell a lot of Moots now. I also like Moots 'one material' philosophy for a bicycle frame.

Hey Old Potatoe(or anyone else), what should one consider if choosing between the Vamoots and CR. I know flat vs. sloping is one but is Vamoots more like a touring bike and CR is midway between that and a racing bike(i.e. RSL). I don't race, don't care about weight, do like to go moderately fast, like responsiveness but want to be comfortable. Looking for the BMW 5 series if you will. Luxurious, comfortable but fast and stylish.

[oldpotatoe]

Hey Old Potatoe(or anyone else), what should one consider if choosing between the Vamoots and CR. I know flat vs. sloping is one but is Vamoots more like a touring bike and CR is midway between that and a racing bike(i.e. RSL). I don't race, don't care about weight, do like to go moderately fast, like responsiveness but want to be comfortable. Looking for the BMW 5 series if you will. Luxurious, comfortable but fast and stylish.

Vamoots has a longer headtube, size for size, horizontal top tube, slightly longer chainstays. More of a all day in the saddle type frame, NOT a touring type frame or geometry, the Vammots. The CR more race oriented type geometry.

This is somewhat market speak but sums it up well.

"The classic road styling of the Vamoots, with longer chainstays and a more upright position than the Vamoots CR, give it a silky smooth, all-performance ride, no matter the terrain. A long heritage of building fine road bikes comes to life in traditional angles, with geometry that is a touch more relaxed to give the Vamoots a more predictable, telepathic ride, with all-day comfort. Each frame utilizes our size-specific tube sets to tune each stock size for a specific ride quality. Built in 9 stock sizes with customs always available.

Rider Profile: All round road performer in any road riding situation, training or racing."

I have a Vamoots and love it. Only and last ti frame I will buy.

[Jeff N.]

I own and ride all three.
Moots: Best welds.
Serotta Legend: Best ride.
Seven Axion SG: Best combination of build quality, materials, design, ride.

[Nags&Ducs]

I own and ride all three.
Moots: Best welds.
Serotta Legend: Best ride.
Seven Axion SG: Best combination of build quality, materials, design, ride.

Jeff,
Seems like you would rate your Seven the best, followed by Serotta and then Moots. Now compare these 3 to the rest of your Ti babies. :) (I can guess it will read: Holland #1, Holland #2, followed by the rest. :beer:

[Jeff N.]

Jeff,
Seems like you would rate your Seven the best, followed by Serotta and then Moots. Now compare these 3 to the rest of your Ti babies. :) (I can guess it will read: Holland #1, Holland #2, followed by the rest. :beer:
HA! Pretty much. My Holland Exogrid has a ride quality that's, bar none, quite hard to beat; Isogrid and all Ti Hollands too. Jeez, I love my Vamoots too. The Legend's ride is also superb. It's just that Seven has an overall quality to it that I find, personally, quite appealing and puts it a slight cut above the rest of the Ti bikes mentioned in the OP comparison. Maybe it's the constant diameter tubes, maybe the artfully-curved chain and seat stays, maybe the superb weld quality and attention to detail, the ride, the apparent ultra-high quality titanium used in their construction, or a combination of all that.

[crossjunkee]

Why is there never any love for Lynskeys on this forum?

I don't own one, but they sure look nice (to me).

I own a Lynskey built Vassago Optimus Ti now, nice bike, love everything about it. I've been riding it all over Steamboat single track this weekend.

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa110/velosprocket/IMG_1655.jpg

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa110/velosprocket/IMG_0235.jpg

[Ramjm_2000]

Helixes are da' bomb! Post pictures when yah gettah chance.

As requsted. Took a quick pic before today's ride.
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/ramjm_2000/Lynskey/P1010073.jpg

[TPetsch]

^^^ Pretty! :) ^^^

[Ti Designs]

Is there a big difference (ride, quality, etc.) among Serotta, Seven, and Moots in terms of the Ti bikes?


Yes.

[gearguywb]

There is no way to say one frame rides "better" than the others. What does "better" mean? For some they are looking for smooth, comfortable, others want stiffer, race oriented...and there is a whole lot in between.

I have ridden ti bikes that felt squishy (not in a good way), others that were truly a race inspired machine.

Do some soul searching to decide on what it is that you want out of the bike.

[oldpotatoe]

Is there a big difference (ride, quality, etc.) among Serotta, Seven, and Moots in terms of the Ti bikes?

Build Quality is a wash, 'ride quality' is like trying to describe how an orange tastes, completely subjective.

Take an extended test ride on each and let us know your thoughts.

OOOOppps, responded to an old thread again....

[victoryfactory]

there are a lot of choices for custom Ti. Go with the brand that
speaks to you (it would be extra great if the builder will
speak to you too)
As was mentioned, Ti can be customized to ride "the way
you want" but that depends on whether you can successfully
communicate your desires to the builder and whether he
can execute. It's not easy. it requires skill and experience.
Also a lot of customers think they know what they want based
on their research and limited experience and a good builder
will see through all that and try to suggest the frame that
the customer really needs.
That's why you select the builder that "speaks to you"
VF

[jpw]

there are a lot of choices for custom Ti. Go with the brand that
speaks to you (it would be extra great if the builder will
speak to you too)
As was mentioned, Ti can be customized to ride "the way
you want" but that depends on whether you can successfully
communicate your desires to the builder and whether he
can execute. It's not easy. it requires skill and experience.
Also a lot of customers think they know what they want based
on their research and limited experience and a good builder
will see through all that and try to suggest the frame that
the customer really needs.
That's why you select the builder that "speaks to you"
VF

Yes, go with the brand you will feel happiest with. I often have the sense with these type of threads that the OP already has the feel worked out and is looking for confirmation.

Personally I would go with a Leh-Jend. That's for technical design and fabrication reasons. I'm sure all the top brands mentioned will ride substantially better than adequately, and way beyond what is truly distinguishable to matter a jot.

Replaceable hanger a Moots. Crash protection a Serotta.

Modern industrial a Moots. Classic elegance a Serotta.

My new unavailable want would be a polished stainless steel Serotta.

[jr59]

Yes.


STRONGLY disagree with this!

All these companies can and do make custom stuff, so the can make it however you wish.

[Aaron O]

there are a lot of choices for custom Ti. Go with the brand that
speaks to you (it would be extra great if the builder will
speak to you too)
As was mentioned, Ti can be customized to ride "the way
you want" but that depends on whether you can successfully
communicate your desires to the builder and whether he
can execute. It's not easy. it requires skill and experience.
Also a lot of customers think they know what they want based
on their research and limited experience and a good builder
will see through all that and try to suggest the frame that
the customer really needs.
That's why you select the builder that "speaks to you"
VF

+1...BIG TIME...I can't agree enough with this statement. For me, the magic of getting a custom was ending up with a frame that I didn't know I wanted, but which was PERFECT for my intended usage. It was larger than I'm used to, and the builder was absolutely correct. I've sort of come to think that unless you're truly a bicycle expert, with a background in frame building, you should treat a custom frame as commissioned art. The artist knows more than you do...trust him.

[93legendti]

Wrong thread

[Ti Designs]

STRONGLY disagree with this!

All these companies can and do make custom stuff, so they can make it however you wish.

No, they can't.

[jpw]

No, they can't.

Elaborate.

[soulspinner]

Yes, go with the brand you will feel happiest with. I often have the sense with these type of threads that the OP already has the feel worked out and is looking for confirmation.

Personally I would go with a Leh-Jend. That's for technical design and fabrication reasons. I'm sure all the top brands mentioned will ride substantially better than adequately, and way beyond what is truly distinguishable to matter a jot.

Replaceable hanger a Moots. Crash protection a Serotta.

Modern industrial a Moots. Classic elegance a Serotta.

My new unavailable want would be a polished stainless steel Serotta.

This. An XCR polished all to hell with reverse decals etched. A killer :cool:

[jpw]

This. An XCR polished all to hell with reverse decals etched. A killer :cool:

Yes!

[Ti Designs]

Elaborate.

It was the most childish reply I could think of at the time.


Seriously, they are three very different companies making three very different bikes. Let's put their marketing aside for a second an look at it from the point of an industry insider who happens to ride a bit, who has owned two out of the three and sold all three. In terms of taking all the steps to make the best riding bike, I don't know that anyone makes anything better than the Serotta Legend, and I've been saying that since I saw Legend #0001. Swaged tubes allow them to put the stiffness where it needs to be without making the bike ride harsh. Builders like Seven will tell you that constant diameter tubes are better for whatever reasons they come up with that day. The math needed to explain this gets rather complicated, so I'll use a really simple example - a really tall flag pole with a huge flag on a windy day. They're all tapered. The smaller diameter at the top and the larger diameter at the bottom allow the pole to bend along it's length. A non-tapered pole would transfer most of that bending force to it's base. Ben figured that part out years ago and stuck with it when he went to titanium. When Ben came to my shop to talk about the new Ti bike, Rob Vabdermak was in the back row waiting for them to pass around the sample tubes - hmmmm. The down side of all of this is that I don't know that they can produce a Ti frame at this point.

Seven was formed as the former Somerville based Merlin was being bought and sold, and the people coming in weren't bike people, they didn't get how the bike industry works. Merlin was saying "we want this business to make a profit" and Rob and company were saying "we want to produce a better bike, the profits will follow". So, Merlin was calling dealers in January with really expensive bikes they didn't want while Seven was setting up shop. There first bike was a clear step above anything that came before it. The details you would expect a top of the line frame to have, they had from day 1. For example, nobody else had thought about offsetting the head tube on a lathe to remove the material that's not needed at the front. They took one extra step, they offered custom ride. They didn't make the assumption that everyone who is 5'10" is 160 pounds, they had a good collection of tubes to use, they picked wall thickness and diameter to make the bike fit the rider in every respect. They still make pretty much the same bike, most of the advances they've made since then have been in marketing.

Moots was started by a guy who just liked to ride bikes and thought it would be cool to braze animal shapes for lugs - really. His bikes gained a cult following, but the frames were as consistant as New England weather. One of the bikes my shop ordered back in the days of quill stems didn't have a 22.2 I.D. for the steerer. He wanted the fork to be extra strong and just forgot that we needed to put a stem in there... Moots is different now. It was started as the new bicycle toy store with a huge initial investment. As a machinest I look at what Seven has and I think "I've got better than that in my basement". I look at what Moots has and I think "holy crap, when did Raytheon start building bikes?". When I look at Serotta's equipment I know why they're in the position they're in... Anyway, on the surface a Moots isn't that different from a Seven - a good selection of tubes mitered and welded together. Where they split is really at the marketing. Seven says "one bike", Moots says there are race bikes, day touring bikes and everything between, they're different. Moots also has the budget to do real testing on their frames, which is how their models come to be.

As for what I ride, my first Ti bike was a Seven. Well, it wasn't all Ti, it was their Odonata which had carbon seat stays and a carbon seat tube. One of the seat stays was broken in a crash, they fixed it, but it just didn't work. It was to the point where I couldn't make it up a hill that I've always used for repeats, and I went backwards in every sprint. I brought it back, they fixed it again, it still didn't work. I'm not one to blame the bike so I looked at my training and my recovery, I even got back into my late winter indoor training program to bring my fitness back up. Then I took an extended test ride on the new Cannondale, and I was back to being me on the bike. Getting back on the Seven, I knew it was the bike. This is how I know there's no testing going on at Seven, after being back three times they still said the frame was fine. Then Ben lent me an Odonata. I sell high end bikes all day long, this was a chance to get me to sell their high end bikes. It wasn't my track bike with road drop-outs geometry, but I still think the Odonata is as good as bikes get. when it was time to buy my own bike (I put 8000 miles on a loaner bike), I didn't have the money for the Odonata, so I got them to make a custom version of the Fierte. Had Serotta stopped at the Odonata as their flagship, I would still be selling them.

We're a Moots dealer now, I've sold a fair number of RSL's. They never fail to impress me with their accuracy in building. Their detail quality is second to none (that from someone who made titanium jewelry for 10 years), I hope to see what they can do in terms of ride quality soon. I don't know if I'll ever own one, bike shops don't pay that well and my Serotta isn't giving up any time soon.

[jr59]

TYi, This explains what?

That you had a problem with a Seven and Serotta let you demo a frame for a lot of miles?
That Moots makes pretty welds and nice bikes?

The question was ride quality. Given the extent that all of these companys can build a custom frame, with the stiffness that you wish, makes them all have equal footing.

I'll not say this is best and this isn't, all riders are very different. I will say that all 3 of these bike makers, can build you a bike that rides the way you wish.

You breaking a carbon rear end and not getting back what you wish does not apply.

Thanks for the history lesson that a few might need.

Yet again I strongly disagree that all three of these companies differ in their ability to build a frame that rides as the rider wishes!

[tiretrax]

Then Ben lent me an Odonata.

Ottrott?

[crossjunkee]

Of those three bikes, Legend Ti (without carbon stays), no question for me. I've put time in the saddle on all three brands. It's all subjective though. No matter the frame brand you pay that kind of money for, you're gonna love it. You'll be logging hours on internet forums raving about how it's the best bike ever made.

Is Serotta still making the Legend in 100% Ti, without carbon SS's?

[Sandy]

Ottrott?

I am sure he meant to say that.


Sandy

[Fixed]

Odonata.

[Ti Designs]

The question was ride quality. Given the extent that all of these companys can build a custom frame, with the stiffness that you wish, makes them all have equal footing.

Wait a second... My Seven and my Serotta were built to the exact same specs. Doesn't that mean they should have had the same ride, or at least close to it?

[jpw]

Is Serotta still making the Legend in 100% Ti, without carbon SS's?

Yes.

[Aaron O]

Moots vs. Seven vs. Serotta reminds me of the scene in Stand by Me where the kids argue about whether Might Mouse can beat up Superman.

Pick the one that speaks to you for whatever reason in the knowledge you'll get a great bike. They're all great builders with a terrific reputation and I'm firmly convinced that 90% of the differences you'd feel are imaginary anyway - based on marketing things you've heard and other opinions floating around. The tires, bar tape and saddle you pick will likely make a bigger difference then the differences between these three frames.

[Black Dog]

We sell Seven and Serotta. We also see a lot of Moots for service. They all seem to be more alike than different in terms of tube diameter and geometry - which seems to set tone more than Seven's curvy stays.

For the most part, titanium bikes have kind of settled down into certain shapes - no one uses tapered tubes anymore and Lynskey is the only common frame builder that does much tube profile shaping. TK claims that continuous diameter round tubes offer the best ride, and that butting does little to change the ride on Ti.

Given all that, if the tubes are round, the same diameter, same alloy and have .9mm walls at the welds, I don't know how much variation in "feel" anyone could expect.

Litespeed does shaped tubes as well on their high end Ti frames.

[beercan]

my first full titanium road bike was a serotta colorado legend, and now I ride a moots vamoots sl, got to say the serotta rides super smooth and even, the moots is stiff, a very different ride, i think i still prefer the ride of the serotta but i still enjoy the moots as well

[goboyle]

I am surprised that no mention has been made about IF's Ti Crown Jewel and where that is perceived among the others. I would think its right up there, but I would love to hear opinions.

[DG24]

Hampsten makes some ti bikes as well.

[jpw]

It was the most childish reply I could think of at the time.


Seriously, they are three very different companies making three very different bikes. Let's put their marketing aside for a second an look at it from the point of an industry insider who happens to ride a bit, who has owned two out of the three and sold all three. In terms of taking all the steps to make the best riding bike, I don't know that anyone makes anything better than the Serotta Legend, and I've been saying that since I saw Legend #0001. Swaged tubes allow them to put the stiffness where it needs to be without making the bike ride harsh. Builders like Seven will tell you that constant diameter tubes are better for whatever reasons they come up with that day. The math needed to explain this gets rather complicated, so I'll use a really simple example - a really tall flag pole with a huge flag on a windy day. They're all tapered. The smaller diameter at the top and the larger diameter at the bottom allow the pole to bend along it's length. A non-tapered pole would transfer most of that bending force to it's base. Ben figured that part out years ago and stuck with it when he went to titanium. When Ben came to my shop to talk about the new Ti bike, Rob Vabdermak was in the back row waiting for them to pass around the sample tubes - hmmmm. The down side of all of this is that I don't know that they can produce a Ti frame at this point.

Seven was formed as the former Somerville based Merlin was being bought and sold, and the people coming in weren't bike people, they didn't get how the bike industry works. Merlin was saying "we want this business to make a profit" and Rob and company were saying "we want to produce a better bike, the profits will follow". So, Merlin was calling dealers in January with really expensive bikes they didn't want while Seven was setting up shop. There first bike was a clear step above anything that came before it. The details you would expect a top of the line frame to have, they had from day 1. For example, nobody else had thought about offsetting the head tube on a lathe to remove the material that's not needed at the front. They took one extra step, they offered custom ride. They didn't make the assumption that everyone who is 5'10" is 160 pounds, they had a good collection of tubes to use, they picked wall thickness and diameter to make the bike fit the rider in every respect. They still make pretty much the same bike, most of the advances they've made since then have been in marketing.

Moots was started by a guy who just liked to ride bikes and thought it would be cool to braze animal shapes for lugs - really. His bikes gained a cult following, but the frames were as consistant as New England weather. One of the bikes my shop ordered back in the days of quill stems didn't have a 22.2 I.D. for the steerer. He wanted the fork to be extra strong and just forgot that we needed to put a stem in there... Moots is different now. It was started as the new bicycle toy store with a huge initial investment. As a machinest I look at what Seven has and I think "I've got better than that in my basement". I look at what Moots has and I think "holy crap, when did Raytheon start building bikes?". When I look at Serotta's equipment I know why they're in the position they're in... Anyway, on the surface a Moots isn't that different from a Seven - a good selection of tubes mitered and welded together. Where they split is really at the marketing. Seven says "one bike", Moots says there are race bikes, day touring bikes and everything between, they're different. Moots also has the budget to do real testing on their frames, which is how their models come to be.

As for what I ride, my first Ti bike was a Seven. Well, it wasn't all Ti, it was their Odonata which had carbon seat stays and a carbon seat tube. One of the seat stays was broken in a crash, they fixed it, but it just didn't work. It was to the point where I couldn't make it up a hill that I've always used for repeats, and I went backwards in every sprint. I brought it back, they fixed it again, it still didn't work. I'm not one to blame the bike so I looked at my training and my recovery, I even got back into my late winter indoor training program to bring my fitness back up. Then I took an extended test ride on the new Cannondale, and I was back to being me on the bike. Getting back on the Seven, I knew it was the bike. This is how I know there's no testing going on at Seven, after being back three times they still said the frame was fine. Then Ben lent me an Odonata. I sell high end bikes all day long, this was a chance to get me to sell their high end bikes. It wasn't my track bike with road drop-outs geometry, but I still think the Odonata is as good as bikes get. when it was time to buy my own bike (I put 8000 miles on a loaner bike), I didn't have the money for the Odonata, so I got them to make a custom version of the Fierte. Had Serotta stopped at the Odonata as their flagship, I would still be selling them.

We're a Moots dealer now, I've sold a fair number of RSL's. They never fail to impress me with their accuracy in building. Their detail quality is second to none (that from someone who made titanium jewelry for 10 years), I hope to see what they can do in terms of ride quality soon. I don't know if I'll ever own one, bike shops don't pay that well and my Serotta isn't giving up any time soon.

Thanks for taking the time to write this. I will read it again carefully and respond. :)

[Ti Designs]

Litespeed does shaped tubes as well on their high end Ti frames.

I think the three builders brought up from the OP were because of their name, image and high quality. Serotta stands out for it's tubeset, Moots and Seven make similar frames, as does IF and a number of other builders. Any of them can spec any diameter tube they can get their hands on for any part of the bike, and they're only limited in geometry by what they think a bike should ride like. Litespeed uses the fold and weld method to create their shaped tubes, which does set them apart from builders like Moots and Seven...

After looking over my frame orders for the past 10+ years with each, I would have to say no, they don't build the same frame - even if you ask them to. Frame companies have personalities, they have frame designers who draft their custom bikes, it all comes out in the final product. Back when IF was in Somerville, they refused to build a frame with chainstays much shorter than 410mm because Shimano claimed the chainline needed that distance. Oddly, they refused to build track bikes with short chainstays, which makes no sense at all. Seven doesn't do low bottom brackets. I have a feeling this has to do with all of their bikes being custom and how their jig is set up (you need a few fixed points to start with). Back when I was selling custom Serottas, Kelly was drafting them - have you ever seen what Mr Bedford rides? Somehow my super stiff crit bike wound up with clearance for 28c tires. The bikes I orders all had a little bit of edge taken off them... Moots thus far (I've only ordered 5 so far) has been dead on the numbers.