OT pit bulls, dead pregnant owner etc

[jimcav]

So, I often get great info and perspectives here. So, I saw the headline about the pregnant woman killed in SF by her pitbull, and we recently had an elderly woman here who lost limbs from a pitbull attack.
2 weekends ago, I had my boys at stagecoach park in encinitas area of san diego, and I saw this guy come in with his girlfriend and pitbull, and he let him off the leash. I was pretty shocked. The dog seemed very well trained, but anytime a kid came into his view, he would "post up" like he was considering charging--the guy would say something and have to grab his collar. I did not confront him, but later checked and dogs are not allowed off leash. I suspect he knows that. I realize I have a non-confrontational approach to most things. But, I also have a negative stereotype of pit bulls and their owners.
So just wondering--I know dogs can be well-trained. for example, yesterday a military working dog was with his handler doing this serpentine pattern from side-to-side on a road, I was approaching from behind running, and i figured the dog would hear me etc. Well, that dog was purely focused as he kept his pattern going and i had to shorten up stride not to collide and it really startled/spooked him (i had passed his handler maybe 15-20 yards before and he just gave me the cool nod).
But to me even if trained the pit bull is a killer/aggressive breed and you can't ever be safe to have it off leash near little kids? if this repeats, should i say something assuming his ignorance "not sure if you realize but dogs aren't allowed off leash here", walk up and say "lovely dog" while i take a pic with my iphone?
thanks
jim

[Ken C]

I think pit bulls get a bad wrap. They are not a naturally agressive breed, the problem is that they have the strongest jaws and therefore the most devastating bit power. If raised correctly they are as much of a people pleaser as a lab.

However this does not excuse the dog owner from having his dog off leash in an area where this is not allowed. If you feel uncomfortible you have the right to tell the owner that he should be obeying the rules that apply to everyone.

[maunahaole]

The pit bull is not ordinarily the root cause of the problem. It has the misfortune of being a breed that is a magnet for assholes that like to make the dog an extension of their asshole personality. Lots of pits and pit mix dogs are really sweet dogs that happen to be big and strong.

[JMerring]

i'm an animal lover, dogs in particular. but, pitbulls should be banned as household pets, never mind being allowed off their leash. yes, yes, i've heard all the talk about bad pitbulls being the result of bad owners, bla bla bla, words words words. they also happen to be extremely strong, extremely aggressive, and the elevator doesn't go all the way to the top in even the most timid and mild-mannered pb. i'm never one to meddle in others' affairs, except to the extent they might threaten my - and in particular my kids' - life. you're in a tough spot but remember that pitbulls can be killers in a way that most other dogs can't be - if you decide to say something, make sure the dog is nowhere to be seen!

[Secosera]

i'm an animal lover, dogs in particular. but, pitbulls should be banned as household pets, never mind being allowed off their leash. yes, yes, i've heard all the talk about bad pitbulls being the result of bad owners, bla bla bla, words words words. they also happen to be extremely strong, extremely aggressive, and the elevator doesn't go all the way to the top in even the most timid and mild-mannered pb. i'm never one to meddle in others' affairs, except to the extent they might threaten my - and in particular my kids' - life. you're in a tough spot but remember that pitbulls can be killers in a way that most other dogs can't be - if you decide to say something, make sure the dog is nowhere to be seen!

Not trying to start an argument, but I feel your logic is very flawed.

A Golden Retriever is in every way the same potential "killer" as a pitbull. It is entirely in the owner's hands how a dog will behave.

[zmudshark]

As a dog lover/owner, and someone that has been attacked by loose pit 'American' bulls, I would have to say they really serve no purpose other than intimidation. I have also had my leashed dog attacked by a loose bull.

Get a spaniel, or something, forcrissakes.

That being said, there are more idiot owners than bad dogs, but there are also leash laws almost everywhere.

[zmudshark]

Not trying to start an argument, but I feel your logic is very flawed.

A Golden Retriever is in every way the same potential "killer" as a pitbull. It is entirely in the owner's hands how a dog will behave.

Pretty sure a Golden wont latch on and bite until death, but you are entitled to your opinions.

Feel a lock coming on.

[biker72]

i'm an animal lover, dogs in particular. but, pitbulls should be banned as household pets, never mind being allowed off their leash. yes, yes, i've heard all the talk about bad pitbulls being the result of bad owners, bla bla bla, words words words. they also happen to be extremely strong, extremely aggressive, and the elevator doesn't go all the way to the top in even the most timid and mild-mannered pb. i'm never one to meddle in others' affairs, except to the extent they might threaten my - and in particular my kids' - life. you're in a tough spot but remember that pitbulls can be killers in a way that most other dogs can't be - if you decide to say something, make sure the dog is nowhere to be seen!
+1
How many times have I seen in the news:
Oh he is such a good dog..I don't know what happened.....after someone had been mauled by still another pit bull.

[gdw]

I agree that a**hole owners are generally to blame for their dogs aggression but after having had one of my dogs attacked by a pit bull I treat all of them as potential killers. It's unfortunate because I've known some which were great pets but it's better to be safe than sorry. Ask the owner to leash his dog if you see it again.

[1centaur]

Breeding is an issue with pit bulls, and all dogs, and the problem is how much bad breeding (for aggression vs. good temperament, for example) goes into that breed vs., say, a Golden. Really bad breeding cannot be overcome by really good training, and most people are not really good trainers. So just as all people are capable of violence but a tattooed gang guy on a street corner is more worthy of profiling for violence than a nun, so are pit bulls worthy of suspicion compared to Goldens. Suspicion is not dispositive in either case, but the owner grabbing the collar is not suggestive of awesome training skills or assured good behavior.

[Frankwurst]

Pit Bulls are like children (O.K. flame away) If raised properly and taught how they are expected to act, they are a pleasure to be around. If left to run free without disipline they are a PITA to be around and you can make them as mean and nasty as you'd ever like to see. We raised two of each (pitbulls and children) and the dogs were always around our friends and their children. Both the children and the dogs were a pleasure to be around, no problems. The dogs have passed on. All the children have all graduated from major universitys and moved on. Rant over. :beer:

[false_Aest]

eh.

pitts
doberman
rotts

they skeeve people out. understandably so.

but i've never met one that wasn't cuddly and super sweet.

i have, however, had my hand ripped open by a spaniel and by a bichon (sp?) -- really.

you've got a right to be uneasy. you've got a right to tell the dude (politely) that it makes you uneasy and to ASK him to put the dog on leash.

maybe a better way to deal with it, if you don't want confrontation is simply to make several calls to park officials about people having their dogs off leash.

[FlashUNC]

I'm firmly in the nurture versus nature camp on this one. A properly socialized and trained pit bull, imo, is no more dangerous than another breed.

Sadly, as folks mentioned, pit bulls tend to attract the wrong kind of owners.

[flydhest]

I think there is nurture and nature going on. I agree entirely that the results are the faults of humans. Part of the problem, I suspect, is that humans also do the breeding and may well select for aggression, even if the breed would not, otherwise, have a preponderance for it.

I do, however, agree that the issue is with people.

[Lifelover]

Nothing wrong with the dogs/breed it just a numbers game. Not to imply they are the most docile breed either.

Pit Bulls are a terrier. Terriers are some of the most bull headed creatures to ever walk the earth. This can be a great thing given a strong, determined leadership. They can be some of the most loyal dogs and would literally die given themselves up for family. All great traits with strong, determined leadership.

Terriers are also almost all muscle and Jaw. Even a cute Boston Terrier can be an intimidating figure up close and aggressive. A Pit Bull can be down right terrifying.

While these rock, hard good looks can be intimidating, it is also one of things that make them a spectacular breed. They are amazingly beautiful.

The looks makes them a very attractive dog to a first time owner. However their bull headiness and intimidating demeanor make them one of the worst to handle as a first time owner.

Add to the mix that there are people breeding them to be aggressive.

Add to that a bunch of earthy crunchy do gooders that want to save every last animal.

Add to that a media frenzy around the breed.

You end up with overly aggressive dogs with idiot owners and the media ensure you hear about every singe event.

You get

[mjb266]

My wife is a large animal vet and a few years back she was called to try and stitch up a llama who'd been attacked by a pit bull. The dog had jumped out of the owner's car while moving and clamped onto the poor animal. Owners tried to get it to release but it wouldn't budge until a sherrif shot it in the head. Pit bulls aren't worth the benefit of the doubt...other dogs are.

[rugbysecondrow]

This is a hard one. There are two dogs that a pit mixes in my immediate family that are very good dogs. One, the black lab pitt mix, is a very sweet, albeit "Lenny" like dog, just no sense of self. Anyway, not sure what I think about them. I have a chow mix who has an attitude problem with strangers, but nothing but a lover with our family. The vet said we should put him down because of his attitude, but 11 years later and now as a 13 year old dog, he wants nothing more than to sit by the kids by the kids while they play. If you are a stranger though, and we are walking as a family with the dogs, do not approach because he still has some gusto. All that said, I taught the kids to be respectful of him, his space and his body (think good touch bad touch) :)

It is hard to tell. I think pit mixes might be ok because the inbreeding seems to be collated with something else, but I would be weary of a full blooded pit. I know the history of pits, but it is that history, through no fault of the dog, that makes them dangerous.

[witcombusa]

On of the finest canine athletes, don't blame the breed. Man is always the problem.....

[lonoeightysix]

Good luck with "informing" a typical pit bull owner about civil infraction-type leash laws, especially in a public place. Post up how that works out for you...

I work in emergency services, and when it comes to pit bull attacks, stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason. I have heard countless times "he wouldn't hurt anyone" or "he's always been good around kids", as I'm splinting someone's arm, or holding a child's face and scalp together. Dog bites-to-breed ratio, not sure. But vicious/latch-on-to-your-skull until a 40 S&W shows up, I'd say there is plenty of evidence, at least anecdotally.

[CNY rider]

Good luck with "informing" a typical pit bull owner about civil infraction-type leash laws, especially in a public place. Post up how that works out for you...

I work in emergency services, and when it comes to pit bull attacks, stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason. I have heard countless times "he wouldn't hurt anyone" or "he's always been good around kids", as I'm splinting someone's arm, or holding a child's face and scalp together. Dog bites-to-breed ratio, not sure. But vicious/latch-on-to-your-skull until a 40 S&W shows up, I'd say there is plenty of evidence, at least anecdotally.

Exactly.
Your retriever dog comes to check out my kids or my dog, I say hello.
Retriever gives attitude, I'll use my body to remove it from the situation.
Your pit makes a move around my kids or dog I don't like, the .357 speaks and we ask questions later.

[ultraman6970]

+1 with the last coments, have 2 dogs and 2 kids, we never leave the dogs alone with them eventho we got them from 2 months old, even one of them take care of the kids and basically he is always between the kids and the other dog (the dominant one)... I don't know how are the laws in other states but at least here by law unless u have a dog breeder place, u have to nutter the animal. In a matter of fact in the dog park i go when somebody shows up with a not nuttered animal and the animal acts weird people starts leaving and even a couple of times they were asked nicely to leave because it could cause big problems.

In california i believe some people think that having a dog/wolf mix is funny, awesome animal but i wouldnt even dare to have one in my house ever, that is just play with fire, worse than having a pitbull unleashed in my opinion.

[zmudshark]

i have, however, had my hand ripped open by a spaniel and by a bichon (sp?) -- really.

I'm guessing it bit and lit, didn't have to be beaten off with a baseball bat? eh?

[rwsaunders]

If you are in doubt that a dog of any breed can do harm, I'll send you the photo of our daughter's scar, which is the result of an unprovoked attack by the neighbor's Springer Spaniel. The attack occurred in our yard and our daughter was four at time. "But he's never done something like this before..."

The dog was unleashed and wandered as he pleased, this after many comments from ourselves and other neighbors. The complaints were primarily a response to the dog crapping in everyone's yard but the owner's.

The dog was put down shortly after the incident, as the neighbor's homeowner's insurance would no longer indemnify them in the event of another attack. I also placed the neighbor on notice that I would destroy the animal if it wandered again.

[malcolm]

Some breeds are more prone to bite than others.
After a lifetime as an ER doc I've seen horrendous bites from most breeds and probably the most bites from lap dogs.
Look at serious disability and death and I suspect pits far outweigh any other breed.
You can debate the cause, but very few other breeds do the damage of a pit and if you are or your kids are on the receiving end I don't think it really matters if it was the owner or the dog. These dogs, when aggressive certainly seem more vicious than any breed I'm familiar with.
I don't think I've heard the oh he is usually so sweet story as often about any other breed which begs the question with all the choices of breeds and all the dogs in shelters that need homes why would anyone choose a pit.
As far as no more dangerous than any other breed I don't buy that, sure all breeds can bite and do damage but the brutality and deaths surrounding pits I've never seen or heard of with any other breed.

[Onno]

I think there is nurture and nature going on. I agree entirely that the results are the faults of humans. Part of the problem, I suspect, is that humans also do the breeding and may well select for aggression, even if the breed would not, otherwise, have a preponderance for it.

I do, however, agree that the issue is with people.

Bingo. People have bred and do breed pit bulls for aggression and strength. Not all pit bulls are dangerous, because breeds aren't clones; there's lots of variety of personality within all breeds, as within all dogs and I suspect all other mammals. And of course some owners are also assholes to and with their individual dogs, helping along, or bringing out, innate violence in the dog.

It's all enough to make me nervous whenever I see a pit bull off leash. I honestly don't know why anyone would seek one out as a pet. I can understand carefully rescuing them, because they are innocent of the abuse we heap upon them, and of what we make them. But not thinking, hey, I know, I want a pit bull, because I want a dog that can kill a man if it chooses to.

[BumbleBeeDave]

I'll trust the statistics on this one . . .

Top 10 Most Dangerous Dog Breeds

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) released "Breeds of dogs involved in fatal human attacks in the United States between 1979 and 1998" in 2000. This study found that 25 breeds of dogs were involved in 238 fatal dog bites from 1979-1998. In over half of the deaths where the dog's breed was known, Pit Bulls and Rottweilers were responsible.

More recent dog bite statistics continue to back up the CDC's findings. In one study of United States dog bite fatalities from 2006-2008, Pitbulls were found responsible for nearly 60% of all deaths. Other dangerous dog breeds singled out by recent figures include Akitas, Chow-Chows, Doberman Pinschers, Perro de Presa Canarios, Rottweilers, and Wolf-Dog Hybrids.

10. Dalmatian
9. Boxers
8. Presa Canario
7. Chow Chow
6. Doberman Pinschers
5. Alaskan Malamutes
4. Huskies
3. German Shepherds
2. Rottweilers
1. Pit Bulls

The top 8 on this list come up time after time after time in just a few minutes of searching on the web.

I stay away from them. No matter what the owner says. I don'treally care if the owners feel insulted. My safety--and the safety of my loved ones--is far more important to me than their egos.

BBD

[Kevan]

Truly a shame the Boxer is even listed, such a terrific breed.

Regarding the top 5, regardless of temper and behavior, is a more worrisome trait to me, the animal's potential.

[Secosera]

In california i believe some people think that having a dog/wolf mix is funny, awesome animal but i wouldnt even dare to have one in my house ever, that is just play with fire, worse than having a pitbull unleashed in my opinion.

You should read up on wolfdogs as pets (I mean that in a "very interesting topic" way, not a smartass way)
They make amazing companions. Also, due to being part wolf, they tend to be more shy around humans than other breeds.
But yes, if you have an ignorant owner with one, it's more than likely the animal is miserable and probably doesn't behave well. The majority of wolfdogs people buy end up in shelters or released due to ignorant owners not realizing it is a large commitment to raise one.
But I feel that way with all dogs. If you are going to bring an animal into your family that has the ability to give and receive affection, it deserves the proper care and training. And with the proper care and training, ANY breed can make a great companion.

Sean

[Chad Engle]

Ban pits, no complaints here. Can't ban stupid people.

My unscientific research leads me to this belief and you won't change it. Never heard of a bichon killing anyone.

Please teach your kids how to approach any dog correctly. Any unsupervised child/dog(any animal) interaction can go south.

I love dogs and have had almost every small animal imaginable. I even woned a pet caimen (small crocodile) for a while.

[Chance]

The argument that the problem is due to the owners and not the breed could also be applied to wild animals held as pets. Bears, lions, and other wild creatures are often domesticated but it’s a bad idea all around. Why should a genetically flawed dog breed be different? The chance that something will go wrong is too high when lower risk options exist.

[Dekonick]

As an owner of a pit beagle mix (we think boxer is somewhere in the mix as well) I can tell you he is the best dog I have ever known. He is a rescue, and neutered. A more docile animal I have not met. Having said that, he is protective of the kids, and the house. I would not want to walk into my yard if I did not know him...

He has all of the attributes I look for in a pet. Loyal, loving, submissive, and protective of his pack. I have more fear of the ankle biters out there than a pit that has been trained and treated properly. I'll give you that they are solid muscle and thus have the ability to inflict grievous injuries, but I will keep my dog. I believe it should come down to individual animals. Pet selection is often made improperly and for the wrong reasons. They are work and it is key to know the temperament of the animal you are choosing to bring into your family. They need to fit and the owners need to do their part and train. I will bet that the families where dogs bite do not have strong leadership over their 'pack' and treat the dog as a human. They are dogs and need to be treated as such. Cesar Milan (I know...) will say the same and also is a defender of the pit. They can be wonderful pets or terrible pests... a lot like bikes IMHO.

:beer:

[avalonracing]

I stay away from them. No matter what the owner says. I don'treally care if the owners feel insulted. My safety--and the safety of my loved ones--is far more important to me than their egos.


It's funny that this thread is here today. Tomorrow evening I'm supposed to go buy back a Serotta I gave up over a decade ago. The owner is a good guy that I have known since he was a teen and he now has two PBs. I don't want to insult him (and I'm sure that I probably will) but I don't want to deal with his dogs so I will probably ask him if he can just meet me outside with the bike.

[fogrider]

even with good owners pit bulls can still be a problem. a few years ago, a family in san francisco had 2 pits, I think the mom had to go to the store and locked the pits in the basement. one of the pits was in heat. the boy was told to stay away from the dogs. he was a little boy that didn't understand. the pit in heat killed the boy.

I can think of many stories where the boys arms, face, etc was bitten and some killed. life is all about benefit vs. risk, for me I'm not willing to take the risk with my family. others are.

[Charles M]

Capacity...


Lots of breeds raised without proper attention are not more than a nuisance. Very simply, Pitts raised (AND HANDLED) without proper attention can very simply kill.


That there are good ones doesnt take away the potential and VERY real danger... And that's the attraction for lots of owners of these dogs. They find it cool that their animal scares people.


I've worked calls when I was on ambulance (long time ago) where a couple of these dogs did their damage to a lady and a kid.


Until you've seen the massive damage, you shouldnt talk AT ALL about how these dogs are no different than others and people should look at them the same way until blah blah blah...


You have NO isea what you have on your hands with these dogs.

And in both cases of the calls I was on, the owners were on hand talking non stop about how their dog "just isnt like that, he /she is loving and freindly and...."


I am a HUGE animal lover... I give 4 figures to a few shelters and rescues and am of a mind that the owners are ***** in lots of cases.

But these are very simply machines made for something that doesnt always settle in to civil society properly. It's not the dogs fault, but it doesnt change the very nature of the breed.



Yes... You should be able to walk up to someone with a Pitt and tell them you're concerned.

No... You shouldnt expect them to respond well.


And if they don't respond well, ultimately your safety and the safety of your kids is your responsibility if you stay around the animal.

[texbike]

Let me set the stage by saying that I'm a left wing, tree-hugging, nature lover. However, I would not hesitate to take out an unleashed dog that approached my children in an overly aggressive manner. My kids are both less than 40 lbs and wouldn't stand a chance against a Pit, Rott, or Doberman that decided to go berserker.

Any breed can potentially deliver a bite or attack, but I would say that a number of breeds have a higher rate of serious injury. IMO, Rotts, Pits, and Dobermans are hard-wired for aggression. They may not have bit anyone yet, but it's only a matter of time. At some point, something is going to snap and they will revert to their "nature".

My kids aren't allowed around any Rotts, Pits, or Dobermans. They are only allowed to approach larger breeds if they are on a leash and my wife or I are there or if the owner is a person that we know is responsible with their pets.

Texbike

[cat6]

I don't think ANY dog should be off leash unless it's in your fenced in yard or a dog park. My dogs can be aggressive and it makes my blood boil when some idiot's "friendly" dog is running off leash towards me. "IT'S OK HE'S FRIENDLY!", guess what? My dogs don't care, they don't like dogs off leash which is why I'm crossing the street. Any dog off leash is a liability, and in most cases any dog off leash will make others feel uncomfortable.

Personally if I saw a PB off leash, I'd get as far away as soon as possible, and I've save the headache of talking to the dog owner, it will likely do no good.

[Tabularosa78]

I rarely post, but this thread kind of hits home. I have two dogs. A Brittany Spaniel from hunting stock and a pit stray I took in while he was still a pup. Both of these dogs get a 5 mile run in the morning and the evenings. I did a a lot of research after I took my pit in and lets just say he knows humans are the boss. He is docile, friendly, and will sit and stay on command with anybody. Child or Adult. He knows that chasing anything is bad and so is licking. He is 100% willing to please which I've read is a trait most scrupulous owners take advantage of.

My Brittany on the other hand, I wouldn't trust around strangers, small animals or children if I'm not around. She responds on call to all commands but she still gets a muzzle every time we go out on a run or a dog park. Her prey drive is huge. I've done everything short of calling Ceaser Milan.

I have to agree that though all dog breeds can bite and harm, pits will do more damage than almost any other breed. Which sucks for the breed because I do believe that they can make awesome companions but it's their willingness to please that is their down fall.

Just my opinions.

[jimcav]

At the time I actually looked up the animal control number on my phone to try to ask the rules (i just moved here)--it was Sunday and it was just a recording. I was a good 200 yards away from the dog, and the pic of the dog in post #18 is similar to his stance except he was more leaning forward.
If I see the owner there again I may try the "it makes me uncomfortable to have your dog off leash when children are here" approach, but now, as I consider the posts on the severity and aggressiveness of pit attacks, it makes me wonder what one could do if it happens. I have seen how fast military dogs can hit a target--if any powerful dog decided to be aggressive we are talking seconds at most.
I almost never go to the park with my boys without a knife, but I am not sure what good it would do (good knife, benchmade) if the pit did anything--I guess my hope would be to only get my left arm in his mouth and stab quick?
thanks
jim

[1centaur]

I don't think there's any good plan that involves a left arm and a knife. If the dog/owner is that volatile it probably would have done something by now. Have the conversation or go through officials, but don't approach on edge because that will get picked up.

A word for Dobermans, as a long-time owner. There are mostly good breeders (breeding for show or agility with good temperament) with Dobes but some bad breeders focused on size or odd colors (white; blue). In contrast, I don't know that about Pits. Go stand around among the Dobes at a dog show and you won't be nervous. You won't see Pits at a dog show for good reason. Dobes mostly have their reputations from TV/movies because of their look and their trainability. Pits mostly have their reputation from real life anecdotes because of their lack of trainability. The Doberman was "invented" by Mr. Doberman (quite recently, in dog terms) to be the perfect dog, not to be a dog that snaps. At this point I have met so many Dobermans and observed so many more that I feel relaxed when I see one as much or more than any large breed (I feel much less relaxed about Chows and Akitas, or Rotties, for example). I can tell a lot about a Doberman by its manner and by its owner. Almost never see a Pit that does not worry me and the owner is almost always not a positive in that equation.

[19wisconsin64]

i love dogs, but this is one breed that should not be breed.

all of the killings.....yet people still defend the breed. really?!?

99.9% of the time these dogs are fine, no matter how well they were breed or nurtured or trained or raised or......

and so, my story is this: my best friend and his wife, loving kind people, adopted a rescue dog from the pound. it was mix, but you could tell from the head that it was clearly part pit bull. everything was fine until one day the dog latched it's jaws on the mailman's forearm, crushing and shattering his bones.

there are so many great dogs who need homes, just not these killers.

sad, very sad.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . lets just say he knows humans are the boss. He is docile, friendly, and will sit and stay on command with anybody. Child or Adult.

. . . but I've seen this same thing before. Owners who have never had any problem with their pit--until they do. The dog is totally well-behaved, loving, and good with kids--until it decides not to be. Everything is perfect, until one day, in a split second--it's not.

After being in journalism for 30 years I saw this scenario again and again and again . . . the dog is fine--until it's not. The result is often huge injuries or death for the unlucky one who was there when the dog decided not to be nice.

Pits. Rottweilers. Shepherds. ANY large dog off leash . . . I stay away from them. Ban pits specifically? Owner's civil rights violated? I don't really care.

BBD

[Lifelover]

.... and lets just say he knows humans are the boss. ......

This is a large part of the problem and a part that it is not even PC to discuss anymore.

We have become a society that treats dogs like children and most owners think it's cruel to be too physical with them. I was recently prohibited from adopting a dog because I "admitted" that he would be left unattended in my 1/2 acre, completely fenced back yard.

The only way to ensure a large, strong, potentially aggressive breed of dogs knows it place in the global pack is by ensuring they know humans are the boss. While this does not mean using a baseball bat, a love tap with a piece of rolled up news paper is not the right answer either.

The dog has to feel absolute dominance from the owner. If you watch Caesar, his method of showing dominance is to pin the dog to the ground on their back until they submit. Most owners would not have the determination and brawn to do that to a full grown pit. Pit, rots and dobies are just to menacing for many people to be able to handle properly.

This is the same exact reason that small dogs are the absolute worst behaved. The owners think that any kind of physical discipline is going to hurt the little rat so they run rough shot of the household.

Using bite statistic to label the breed is no different than using prison statistics to label young, black males.

[ergott]

I wonder how many pit owners would bet a 20 year prison sentence on their dog's temperament.

[R2D2]

. . . but I've seen this same thing before. Owners who have never had any problem with their pit--until they do. The dog is totally well-behaved, loving, and good with kids--until it decides not to be. Everything is perfect, until one day, in a split second--it's not.

After being in journalism for 30 years I saw this scenario again and again and again . . . the dog is fine--until it's not. The result is often huge injuries or death for the unlucky one who was there when the dog decided not to be nice.

Pits. Rottweilers. Shepherds. ANY large dog off leash . . . I stay away from them. Ban pits specifically? Owner's civil rights violated? I don't really care.

BBD
The problem is irresponible owners. And civil rights end when it does harm or infinges on the civil rights of others.
But the logic applies to many things. Like driving a car or owning a firearm.
The American Straffordshire and the English Straffordshire were earlier in our culture respected and much gentler (Pete in Our Gang, Spike of Buster Brown and RCA dog listening to his Master's voice). But a bunch ot total a-holes have now breed them to be overly aggresive and looking for a fight.
I loathe irresponible owners. My ex-wife insisted on owning one. And it was as sweet as sugar to me. But during our separation she violated the one rule I insisted on. NEVER let the dog out of the fenced backyard and NEVER have it off the leash. BUT she did and it ran down her driveway and attacked another dog. And I had to show up and clean it all up. I immediately had to have the dog put down and called up my lawyer and told him to speed up the divorce so I could put as much distance between myself and this dumbass I had married (she was pretty!).

[SamIAm]

I wonder how many pit owners would bet a 20 year prison sentence on their dog's temperament.

Now that is the real question!

[Len J]

There are good Pitts and there are bad pitts.

Let's separate behavior influences into breeding and training.

Breeding.

Pitts have been over breed for aggression by the fighting dog community. This has happened for generations, with the most aggressive kept and bred, and the least aggressive either kept for training or in many cases killed.

Responsible breeders, breeding for more owner friendly temperament are the exception, and make up the smallest % of Pitts born.

Training.

A responsible owner with a dog bred for aggression is going to have to be vigilant. My wife and I have always had large breed dogs. (we currently have a Newfoundland and an English Mastiff). Both dogs we have now are over 150 lbs, are very well trained, but, we know because of their size, we have to be vigilant that they don't inadvertently hurt someone by running into them, or simply playing too rough. Just because they are well trained, doesn't mean there is not a risk. Unfortunately, too many Pitt owners are not as vigilant as they should be, couple this with those that don't train adequately, and it's a recipe for disaster.

A breeder once told me that not all people are capable of managing all breeds of dogs.......you have to match personality somewhat. IMO this is particularly important w Pitts.

So couple a dog likely bred for aggression w in adequate ownership and you get what we have.......a dog with a history of bad bites.

The anecdotal "I have a Pitt and he's a great dog" stories don't change the sad statistics.

A Pitt bred priorly from a long line for lower aggression and temperament, properly trained and socialized, is a great family pet. Unfortunately, lack of any one of those attributes (proper breeding for temperament, training and socialization) makes the dog dangerous.

You can train some things, but you can't train out aggression.

IME

Len

[FlashUNC]

Here's an interesting take on generalizations we make from Malcolm Gladwell, focusing on pit bulls:

http://www.gladwell.com/2006/2006_02_06_a_pitbull.html

[rugbysecondrow]

. . .

Pits. Rottweilers. Shepherds. ANY large dog off leash . . . I stay away from them. Ban pits specifically? Owner's civil rights violated? I don't really care.

BBD

I don't think there is any good excuse for having your dog off leash unless it is a farm dog. I don't know if I have ever met a 100% trained non-working dog that would stop on command or in the heat of the moment. I have read this elsewhere and 100%, dog parks are very bad ideas. Just a time bomb for which the humans have little ability to control.

[Chance]

The dog has to feel absolute dominance from the owner. If you watch Caesar, his method of showing dominance is to pin the dog to the ground on their back until they submit. Most owners would not have the determination and brawn to do that to a full grown pit. Pit, rots and dobies are just to menacing for many people to be able to handle properly.

You are probably right because children and small adults seem to be at the receiving end of attacks disproportionally so. Owners do get attacked but not as often. Maybe these dogs are smart enough to know when adults or small children around him can’t dominate his power. And it’s not like the owner can watch him 100 percent of the time.

[saab2000]

I don't think there is any good excuse for having your dog off leash unless it is a farm dog. I don't know if I have ever met a 100% trained non-working dog that would stop on command or in the heat of the moment. I have read this elsewhere and 100%, dog parks are very bad ideas. Just a time bomb for which the humans have little ability to control.

Farm dogs off leash sometimes don't know their property's borders. Been chased by a mean mofo farm dog on your bike lately?

[Aaron O]

I only read the initial post, so I'm probably just repeating what someone else may have said. There is NEVER an excuse for any dog to be off leash outside of an owner's home or a dog park. Because I live in a large city with a TON of dogs, I probably wouldn't bother reporting it, but it would definitely irk me, and I would report it if the dog was behaving aggressively. As for saying something? Why bother. They've already made a concious decision that they are more important than you are and their rights trump your's. There is generally no point in dialouging people that do things like this because they won't listen. I don't think pit bulls are any more inherently aggressive than other dogs, but I do think their potential for injuring someone makes it even more critical for them to be on leash. I think the same of any larger dog, but obviously the jaw strength of pits makes them a unique problem. A lot of middle class/professional people on my block have pits and pit mixes because they're good at protection, a managable size and for the rescue aspect.

To be honest, I hate most dogs. They're loud, they smell, they're almost always territorial and all of them are capable of hurting someone. One of life's truly horrific experiences is stepping in dog poo, though owners around here are usually decent about that. I think dog owners, as a group, are one of the rudest, most inconsiderate, self centered blocks of people on the planet. Few of them seems to accept that others may not like their pooch and all of them make the "it's not MY dog, he's well behaved" excuse most often heard when their child is caught for fighting, dealing drugs, etc. I despise the tendency of allowing dogs in public places and I avoid shopping at "pet friendly" stores. It especially irks me that a bar that would never dream of allowing a bike in its sacred borders has no issue with barking bags of stench. Nothing annoys me quite like people running/jogging with their dog on mups, when you have no idea what the dog is going to do and it's VERY difficult to get around them.

Yes - I own cats.

[rugbysecondrow]

Yes - I own cats.

You should have led with this, then I wouldn't have kept reading. :)

[Aaron O]

You should have led with this, then I wouldn't have kept reading. :)

:p

No - you can't have that 4 minutes of your life back.

SUCKER!

[rugbysecondrow]

:p

No - you can't have that 4 minutes of your life back.

SUCKER!


The least you could have done was integrated a discussion of lugs into your madifesto of doggie hatred. ;)

[witcombusa]

. . . but I've seen this same thing before. Owners who have never had any problem with their pit--until they do. The dog is totally well-behaved, loving, and good with kids--until it decides not to be. Everything is perfect, until one day, in a split second--it's not.

After being in journalism for 30 years I saw this scenario again and again and again . . . the dog is fine--until it's not. The result is often huge injuries or death for the unlucky one who was there when the dog decided not to be nice.

Pits. Rottweilers. Shepherds. ANY large dog off leash . . . I stay away from them. Ban pits specifically? Owner's civil rights violated? I don't really care.

BBD

I just love this type of "thinking"

It's people that worry me....

[Aaron O]

The least you could have done was integrated a discussion of lugs into your madifesto of doggie hatred. ;)

Lugged leashes ARE more attractive, and make a leash more laterally compliant and vertically stiff.

[rugbysecondrow]

Lugged leashes ARE more attractive, and make a leash more laterally compliant and vertically stiff.

They are heavier though and cost twice as much.

[mister]

haven't read all the posts yet, will when i have some time. i did read the article about the poor lady yesterday though. very sad.

traditionally staffordshire terriers were bred to be handled by humans. any dog showing aggression towards a human was killed...they needed to be handled by humans when were at their peak excitement/aggressiveness/whatever you call it...when they were fighting...

a real american pitbull terrier/staffordshire terrier is not human aggressive, they love people, they cuddle up next to you on the couch, they are excellent with children (except they love them so much they might whack a child in the face with their tail when it starts wagging as soon as they see a child)...they make absolutely terrible guard dogs.
also, they aren't very big dogs, their heads should be kinda boxy and square with some obvious jaw muscle, like any other terrier.
the head shouldn't be abnormally large...and the males shouldn't weigh 70-100 lbs...and the females shouldn't weigh 60-80lbs or whatever...

most "pitbulls" you see or read about aren't even real APBT's or staffies, they are some mix, bred to be big and look aggressive by some idiot backyard breeder.

people that don't train their dogs are even worse, so annoying some little ????head dog that acts 10 times worse than any large dog and gets away with it because "she little she's not gonna hurt you."

[Aaron O]

They are heavier though and cost twice as much.

Welded leashes have no sole :)

If you were wondering, the sole of the leash is in every 3rd link, on the lower portion.

[Dekonick]

They are heavier though and cost twice as much.

Only if mass produced in Asia...

Go custom :)

[mister]

. . . but I've seen this same thing before. Owners who have never had any problem with their pit--until they do. The dog is totally well-behaved, loving, and good with kids--until it decides not to be. Everything is perfect, until one day, in a split second--it's not.

After being in journalism for 30 years I saw this scenario again and again and again . . . the dog is fine--until it's not. The result is often huge injuries or death for the unlucky one who was there when the dog decided not to be nice.

Pits. Rottweilers. Shepherds. ANY large dog off leash . . . I stay away from them. Ban pits specifically? Owner's civil rights violated? I don't really care.

BBD

ok, wondering one thing here. you actually believe it when the owner says they never had a problem with their dog before.

anytime the owner of a dog that just did something news article worthy says "oh my god i can't believe this happened, this dog has been great all it's life and i've never had a problem with it before..." is absolutely complete bull????.

[alastair]

To be honest, I hate most dogs

I wrote a lengthy reply to this thread lastnight, and deleted it. I reasoned that I'm too new to the forum, and too close too the topic, for it to be a good idea. Posts like this just serve to vindicate my decision and to illustrate that the topic is too polarizing for any thoughtful dicussion to take place.

Perhaps the thread could be broken into two new threads:

1. I understand dogs

2. I think I understand dogs but don't.

[rugbysecondrow]

ok, wondering one thing here. you actually believe it when the owner says they never had a problem with their dog before.

anytime the owner of a dog that just did something news article worthy says "oh my god i can't believe this happened, this dog has been great all it's life and i've never had a problem with it before..." is absolutely complete bull????.


Agreed. What else is the owner going to say, my dog is an aggressive SOB who nipped at the kids, but I just didn't care.

[fiamme red]

Agreed. What else is the owner going to say, my dog is an aggressive SOB who nipped at the kids, but I just didn't care.By definition, all dogs are SOB's. :)

[William]

Yes - I own cats.


I bet they "talk" to you as well. ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LBKVXyrHcw



William

[Aaron O]

I bet they "talk" to you as well. ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LBKVXyrHcw



William
Gerrr...I can't view this at work. I'm sure I'll laugh when home.

:beer:

I wrote a lengthy reply to this thread lastnight, and deleted it. I reasoned that I'm too new to the forum, and too close too the topic, for it to be a good idea. Posts like this just serve to vindicate my decision and to illustrate that the topic is too polarizing for any thoughtful dicussion to take place.

Perhaps the thread could be broken into two new threads:

1. I understand dogs

2. I think I understand dogs but don't.


I don't think anyone is going to solve any problems or have debate scholars will read in 30 years here. On the other hand, it is a good place to vent and have debates you probably couldn't have otherwise. With good people too.

[pjm]

This guy used to hang out with a bunch of kids....

[Charles M]

The serious attacks I've seen had the owners crying more about "what's going to happen to my dog" than about the people that were hurt...

Followed by "I dont know what he-she did to upset my dog, my dog is [insert string of praises that make saints look cold hearted and mean]..."



Virtually every time one of these animals attacks, it's "the first time someone has successfully provoked my animal"...

In fairness, I would guess there are times when that's true.

But so what?



And suggesting a "real" Pitt wont harm people and is some little angel is to suggest that "unreal" pitts drove themselves to the number 1 killer spot.

But, again, so what?

At days end, every pitt owner will be positive that their pitt is a "real" pitt, just like every serious attack was the first time their perfect dog snapped. I think it less than factual to suggest that animals that were being bred to fight and kill were properly genetically altered simply because the ones that snapped at Humans were destroyed for a preiod of X years.




Some Pitts are just fine!


But all have the capacity to kill or do massive harm, and all warrant caution no matter what the owner thinks or what bit of k9 anecdotal / incidental evidence is out there...

[William]

traditionally staffordshire terriers were bred to be handled by humans. any dog showing aggression towards a human was killed...they needed to be handled by humans when were at their peak excitement/aggressiveness/whatever you call it...when they were fighting...

a real american pitbull terrier/staffordshire terrier is not human aggressive, they love people, they cuddle up next to you on the couch, they are excellent with children (except they love them so much they might whack a child in the face with their tail when it starts wagging as soon as they see a child)...they make absolutely terrible guard dogs.
also, they aren't very big dogs, their heads should be kinda boxy and square with some obvious jaw muscle, like any other terrier.
the head shouldn't be abnormally large...and the males shouldn't weigh 70-100 lbs...and the females shouldn't weigh 60-80lbs or whatever...

most "pitbulls" you see or read about aren't even real APBT's or staffies, they are some mix, bred to be big and look aggressive by some idiot backyard breeder.

Very true. Originally during Bull baiting days the trainers had to be able to safely pull them out the fight or off the bull. Dogs that attacked humans were destroyed. They were bred and trained to have a high prey drive, and to be totally loyal to people. At one time in America they were the breed of choice & the most popular. It's unfair, but an unfortunate reality that asswipe people have turned some of the breed into into larger, stronger, dogs trained to have more aggressive tendencies toward humans. The dogs are the pawns in a macho violent culture with direct as well collateral damage the end result.

I was attacked by a German Shepherd as a kid but I still love dogs. I have no ill will toward the breed at all. The fault was with the owners who let it roam at will. Dogs are animals and as such need training to know their place in your "pack". No dog should be able to assume the Alpha roll with your family. They are not children and they cannot be reasoned with. When a dog is allowed to take over that roll, that is when problems arise in controlling it. I won't say all, but the majority of attacks are due to irresponsible owners who don't know how, or are unwilling to properly train and control their animals. In the case of larger stronger breeds, the potential for more injuries and death can certainly go up.

My feeling is still that it's mainly an owner/breeder problem and not directly the dogs themselves...though I can admit that it's the dogs and potential victims that bear the brunt of that irresponsibility.




William

[BengeBoy]

I am a life-long dog owner (I own 2 now) but dog owners drive me crazy.

I can't tell you how many times my family and I have pulled over to the side of the road in our little suburb to catch a stray dog and then spend the next 15 minutes to 5 hours tracking down its owner. Sometimes the dog is only a block or two away from its house, sometimes a couple of miles.

I do this on my bike as well. Just last night on the way home from work I spent 10 minutes getting close enough to a stray to grab his collar, read the tags, and walk him back over to his home. About a year ago, I saw the same dog *twice* on the same stretch of road, called the dog's owner to come get it, and then was left standing by the side of the road for 15 minutes while the owner waited for her son to finish a shower so he could come get the dog.

BTW, I don't hold myself out to be an expert, but we have been through obedience school about 8 or 9 times with various dogs in our adult lives. One of the things we always notice when we go to obedience school (which is about training the owners, really, not the dogs) is that adults who grew up with dogs and then got one as an adults have no real idea how much work it is to be a responsible dog owner. They're always kind of in shock; I guess as kids we have no idea what our parents went through.

Anyway, to get to the point, I'm constantly disheartened by irresponsible pet owners and think pit bulls are a great example of a breed that ought to go away. I'm not sure that a "ban" really works because all it takes is a bit of cross-breeding and, voila, you have a mutt that is equally dangerous.

[mister]

german shepherd has the same bite pressure as a pitbulls, rottweilers have much higher bite pressure.

also pitbulls are highly trainable, moreso than most dogs...they are not an easy dog to own though. well no dog is. IMO it should be a requirement for every dog owner to have to take their dog to obedience classes, mostly because a dog owner needs training more than the dog does.
also, i hate to see any dog off leash...never have and never will take a dog to dog park.

also, 1centaur, i think there are plenty of APBT's at dog shows. maybe you can't recognize them? (www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html)
http://www.realpitbull.com/ukcstandard.html

which raises the question, if people can mistake 10 different breeds as pitbulls, and most people can't accurately identify many dogs by breed, can anyone really create an accurate statistic of dog bites by breed?

what complicates the situation further is no dog is the same, no owner is the same and the majority of people know nothing about how to identify dogs, train dogs, handle dogs or approach dogs it's easy to realize there is much more to it than just the dog breed.

[Aaron O]

I'd like to see this guy in prison:

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/New-Jersey-Doctors-Dogs-Attacked-six-Children-120967939.html

I'm generally against the "burn him" pitchfork throw them all in jail mindset, but this guy really, really needs to be held accountable for his grossly negligent and dangerous behavior.

[mister]

also, how many of you have any real experience with any type of pitbull or pitbull mix?
(besides seeing what you think is a pitbull and thinking "that dog looks scary i don't want anything to do with it.", not that that's bad. i see plenty of dogs in public that i don't want anything to do with...mostly based on the owners behavior combined with the dogs behavior.)

how many just have fear based off of media?

[mister]

I'd like to see this guy in prison:

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/New-Jersey-Doctors-Dogs-Attacked-six-Children-120967939.html

I'm generally against the "burn him" pitchfork throw them all in jail mindset, but this guy really, really needs to be held accountable for his grossly negligent and dangerous behavior.

wonder if the judges ruling would have been much different had the owner been a regular dude instead of a doctor...

[William]

also, how many of you have any real experience with any type of pitbull or pitbull mix?


Hand raised.




William

[mister]

Hand raised.




William

and you have a very fair and realistic opinion of pitbulls...and dogs in general it seems.

[pjm]

I bet they "talk" to you as well. ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LBKVXyrHcw



William
Or even bark!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aP3gzee1cps&feature=related

[Pete Serotta]

:) feel free to start another thread. and Again thanks for keeping it civil.

PETE