TIG welded steel frames

[bicycletricycle]

TIG welded steel frames are pretty hard for me to get excited about. Looking at some Bedfords made me realize this. So many of them just look exactly the same. Stock Tubes plus stock dropouts plus stock braze ons equals boring. Pegoretti, Speedvagen, cielo and a few others put in some work to make their bikes special.

what builder do you think makes the coolest TIG'd steel frames?
remember pictures speak a 1000 words.

ill start

I have a sycip 29er, its awesome, they braze pennies onto their segmented seatstays. It is a really nice touch.

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae236/bicycletricycle/sycip-penny-29er-nahbs02-600x450.jpg

[firerescuefin]

I am not a KB owner, but having seen a couple of his Tigd frames in person, they're awfully nice....and Pegs and SVs are at totally different pricepoints from a KB. Seeing Kelly's lugged work makes me think that if you wanted to pretty up a tigd frame and pay for it, you certainly could. There's no lack of skill or an eye for detail there.


TIG welded steel frames are pretty hard for me to get excited about. Looking at some Bedfords made me realize this. So many of them just look exactly the same. Stock Tubes plus stock dropouts plus stock braze ons equals boring. Pegoretti, Speedvagen, cielo and a few others put in some work to make their bikes special.

what builder do you think makes the coolest TIG'd steel frames?
remember pictures speak a 1000 words.

ill start

I have a sycip 29er, its awesome, they braze pennies onto their segmented seatstays. It is a really nice touch.

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae236/bicycletricycle/sycip-penny-29er-nahbs02-600x450.jpg

[Chance]

Very nice. Gives new meaning to "my two cents".

[Spin71]

Dario is TIG.

[BillG]

Chris Igleheart has cool gussets. I love my TIG welded Iglehearts.

[Aaron O]

I'm sure this will get me banned, but Dario makes hands down the ugliest, most simultaneously dull and garish, bikes I've ever seen. Its almost like his approach to bikes is nihilism. I'm sure they ride great, but i'm also sure I'd never permit one in my home. His bikes make cf look good and it's almost as if he works to make them that ugly.

Not that I have an opinion. It's all taste.

Ti looks good tig...spectrum qualifies. My lemonds look ok tig.

[bicycletricycle]

my TIG'd lemond always looked uninteresting to me, rode fine.

i can see were you are coming from on this one. some of the paint can be a little much. I think that dario has added a lot into the mix by pushing tube size and geometry in interesting ways.

do you think that this bike is ugly?

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae236/bicycletricycle/PegorettiCampagnoloChorus.jpg
http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae236/bicycletricycle/PegorettiBigLegEmmainAboveCategory.jpg
http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae236/bicycletricycle/DarioPegorettiBigLegEmma.jpg


I'm sure this will get me banned, but Dario makes hands down the ugliest, most simultaneously dull and garish, bikes I've ever seen. Its almost like his approach to bikes is nihilism. I'm sure they ride great, but i'm also sure I'd never permit one in my home. His bikes make cf look good and it's almost as if he works to make them that ugly.

Not that I have an opinion. It's all taste.

Ti looks good tig...spectrum qualifies. My lemonds look ok tig.

[Spin71]

I'm sure this will get me banned, but Dario makes hands down the ugliest, most simultaneously dull and garish, bikes I've ever seen. Its almost like his approach to bikes is nihilism. I'm sure they ride great, but i'm also sure I'd never permit one in my home. His bikes make cf look good and it's almost as if he works to make them that ugly.

Not that I have an opinion. It's all taste.

Ti looks good tig...spectrum qualifies. My lemonds look ok tig.

What on earth does ones disliking of paint schemes have to do with a builder who pioneered and mastered TIG. If you didn't wax poetically and post pics every week about that hideous Orange Crate of yours, I might take you seriously.

[the night owl]

I have Guru with Tig'd Deda 16.5 main tubes and a Deda black box rear triangle. When married to an Alpha Q fork, it makes for a pretty nice ride. My understanding is that Serotta did a pretty similar setup. The guru is visually appealing including a beautiful paint job. The ride is a really nice mix of steel feel and carbon performance/comfort. By no means does Tig'd have to imply boring sameness.

[93legendti]

...Stock Tubes plus stock dropouts plus stock braze ons equals boring...

what builder do you think makes the coolest TIG'd steel frames?
remember pictures speak a 1000 words...
Not buying your assumption...plenty of TIG steel bikes are made from custom tubesets.

[bicycletricycle]

hmm..
not many frames have custom tubesets, most have a blend of stock tubes chosen for the rider but that is not what I meant. I meant more like the huge round stays that deda makes for pegoretti. Something that makes a builders frames unique, like a kirk terraplane.

Not buying your assumption...plenty of TIG steel bikes are made from custom tubesets.

[Kontact]

Bontrager Race Lite:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-MhtGzeEaPdE/TYwS5u_3mQI/AAAAAAAAAZQ/imaoHUTcxJg/s1600/Bontrager5.JPG
Skinny custom tubes, gussets, general weirdness. The skinniest looking bike I've seen. I love the way it looks nothing like a Ti, aluminum or traditional lugged steel bike, and I think that makes the tig welds seem right.

Haven't seen anything since that does it for me. Those bumpy welds like in that Peg dropout picture just don't do it for me, so it takes something special to make tig'd steel catch my eye.

[rugbysecondrow]

Coolest? That is an odd thing. I think the rider, and components really make the frame. I don't care whose it is, without the above, it is still just a static object.

I think you need to take Bedford's or Strong's frames for example, they both charge about $2K for their framesets and you can get a KB in about 8 weeks. It will also be a great riding frame. Compare that to a Speedvagen, how much does it cost? How long does it take? My point is that you are not comparing apples to apples. KB builds for the customer a bike to be ridden, not one where pennies are affixed to the frame. Bikes meant to have to poo ridden out of them, not to be sold and resold when the newest suprise me XYZ model comes out.

Again, they are TIG'd, but that is about all they have in common, purposefully I would presume.



TIG welded steel frames are pretty hard for me to get excited about. Looking at some Bedfords made me realize this. So many of them just look exactly the same. Stock Tubes plus stock dropouts plus stock braze ons equals boring. Pegoretti, Speedvagen, cielo and a few others put in some work to make their bikes special.

what builder do you think makes the coolest TIG'd steel frames?
remember pictures speak a 1000 words.

ill start

I have a sycip 29er, its awesome, they braze pennies onto their segmented seatstays. It is a really nice touch.

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae236/bicycletricycle/sycip-penny-29er-nahbs02-600x450.jpg

[MRB]

The great steel TIG welders / framebuilders, and there are lots of them, can make the welds virtually disappear under paint. I first learned of this level of beauty from seeing Don Ferris' work (Anvil) and I have seen this functional beauty in Strong, IF, and of course Serotta. My lowly Lemond Poprad is close, but not quite in the league / level of beauty as the ones I mentioned.

That's my two cents (in Wheat Pennies, of course)

Also... Dario's work is very diverse and worthy of respect. He makes a classic/traditional bike proper in all aspects. And by the same token, he pushes the limit in other areas, including TiG welding and artistic paint. Maybe not everyone's dream machine, but something to behold none-the-less.

[rugbysecondrow]

What on earth does ones disliking of paint schemes have to do with a builder who pioneered and mastered TIG. If you didn't wax poetically and post pics every week about that hideous Orange Crate of yours, I might take you seriously.

You don't have get up in arms fella, if Dario's bikes are art, it will cause some to fall in love and faint with horror...you ought not take either too seriously.

[Jack Brunk]

I thought design and stuff trumpted everything. Some of you guys have some deep rooted anger about bike stuff. Question Kelly B's work? Almost like again some of you guys are having your "period". Try to enjoy the great work and the builders who are at our disposal.

[Spin71]

You don't have get up in arms fella, if Dario's bikes are art, it will cause some to fall in love and faint with horror...you ought not take either too seriously.

They're not art, they're frames. This is a thread about the top TIG builders and he is the top of the TIG food chain. People going off on nonsensical rants, especially when they haven't sat their ass on one is comical at best, fella.

[Muttleyone]

I'm sure this will get me banned, but Dario makes hands down the ugliest, most simultaneously dull and garish, bikes I've ever seen. Its almost like his approach to bikes is nihilism. I'm sure they ride great, but i'm also sure I'd never permit one in my home. His bikes make cf look good and it's almost as if he works to make them that ugly.

Not that I have an opinion. It's all taste.

Ti looks good tig...spectrum qualifies. My lemonds look ok tig.

Once again Aaron we are on the same page. I feel the same about Dario's bikes but never mentioned it for fear of being banned for life. I respect the man as a builder but his frames just don't do it for me.
Nihilism, that must be exhausting.

Mutt

[Mudbug]

Fat City Cycles did some nice forks.
Ibis used to make nice TIG welded frames with some nice touches, such as the hand job.

[thinpin]

Mr Pegorettis' frames need to be ridden. Get out and get on them. Saw his stuff when I was a young fellow and didnt know who he was.

[Elefantino]

Were I so inclined to buy a TIGger, I'd reach out to Anthony Maietta (http://www.maiettacycling.com/Maietta/Maietta_Cycling_Home.html) in Massachusetts.

He's a relatively new builder who produces some stunning work (including an abalone-encrusted bike (http://www.flickr.com/photos/28583241@N03/5489976449/) for NAHBS) and his owners are raving.

His prices are more than reasonable, too.

[bicycletricycle]

That road lite is spectacular. Always wanted one of those

Bontrager Race Lite:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-MhtGzeEaPdE/TYwS5u_3mQI/AAAAAAAAAZQ/imaoHUTcxJg/s1600/Bontrager5.JPG
Skinny custom tubes, gussets, general weirdness. The skinniest looking bike I've seen. I love the way it looks nothing like a Ti, aluminum or traditional lugged steel bike, and I think that makes the tig welds seem right.

Haven't seen anything since that does it for me. Those bumpy welds like in that Peg dropout picture just don't do it for me, so it takes something special to make tig'd steel catch my eye.

[rePhil]

I have a Tigged Strong. The ride speaks to me in a way that I will never willingly part with it.
Maybe I'm in the minority, but I like the look of a Tigged frame, the welders skills are there for all to see.
This is a good time to be a cyclist. There are lots of great builders out there offering up plenty of choices.

[Aaron O]

They're not art, they're frames. This is a thread about the top TIG builders and he is the top of the TIG food chain. People going off on nonsensical rants, especially when they haven't sat their ass on one is comical at best, fella.
In the hopes of promoting reading comprehension, I'll suggest you note three things:

1. The note that it was taste.
2. I specifically noted it was purely aesthetic.
3. The thread was about aesthetics, not ride quality.

I've never ridden one; perhaps they ride on angel farts. If he makes a few that don't look like a satire of self serious cyclists, maybe I'll try one out. In the mean time, my krate is more than good enough for me and doesn't make my basement look like a Geiger exhibit.

It's not just the paint, though they're horrid. Being the master of tig is like being king of the trolls and I don't dig his designs.

Clearly you're annoyed that someone dared suggest his bikes are rolling hemorrhoids. You're welcome not to take my taste seriously; I wouldn't take anything seriously.

[Aaron O]

my TIG'd lemond always looked uninteresting to me, rode fine.

i can see were you are coming from on this one. some of the paint can be a little much. I think that dario has added a lot into the mix by pushing tube size and geometry in interesting ways.

do you think that this bike is ugly?

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae236/bicycletricycle/PegorettiCampagnoloChorus.jpg
http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae236/bicycletricycle/PegorettiBigLegEmmainAboveCategory.jpg
http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae236/bicycletricycle/DarioPegorettiBigLegEmma.jpgHonestly...it's not something I appreciate. It reminds me of those gilco colnagos I didn't like.

I think you're right about lemonds...but I think that's why I'm ok with them. The tigs are quiet and reserved, they sort of avoid notice.

[AngryScientist]

Its nothing too special, but I certainly think my colorado tg is a beautiful bike, and the ride backs it up.

[firerescuefin]

They're not art, they're frames. This is a thread about the top TIG builders and he is the top of the TIG food chain. People going off on nonsensical rants, especially when they haven't sat their ass on one is comical at best, fella.

Actually if you cared to read the OP, it's about art and what floats your "aesthetic boat"....your attacks on Paul and Aaron are over the top and make you look like a (fill in the blank)...Dario's work (especially on the finish side) is polarizing and is well known to ellicit love/hate feelings, and although I respect the man, and would not argue with those that love his bikes, I find most of them ugly (as a matter of taste). I don't think Dario would advertise that his welds are the most beautiful ever (not that they're either bad (aesthetically) or ineffective). Last time I checked, that is not an attack on your family. Bro, you need to dial it down a little.

[Climb01742]

Bro, you need to dial it down a little.

that sentiment could be applied equally to quite a few posts in this thread. there is a long distance between saying that dario's paint schemes aren't your cup of tea and some of the language used so far. every opinion has two elements: the substance and the style in which it's delivered. on substance, you can't argue that dario's frames aren't polarizing. but some of the language used seems to cross a line. there are many ways to say you don't like something. why be unnecessarily harsh? afterall, dario is a human being.

[jr59]

I kind of like my Spectrum

[e-RICHIE]

that sentiment could be applied equally to quite a few posts in this thread. there is a long distance between saying that dario's paint schemes aren't your cup of tea and some of the language used so far. every opinion has two elements: the substance and the style in which it's delivered. on substance, you can't argue that dario's frames aren't polarizing. but some of the language used seems to cross a line. there are many ways to say you don't like something. why be unnecessarily harsh? afterall, dario is a human being.

^ this atmo.

ps

arrange disorder

:) :) :p
:p :D :o
:cool: :cool: :cool:

[firerescuefin]

that sentiment could be applied equally to quite a few posts in this thread. there is a long distance between saying that dario's paint schemes aren't your cup of tea and some of the language used so far. every opinion has two elements: the substance and the style in which it's delivered. on substance, you can't argue that dario's frames aren't polarizing. but some of the language used seems to cross a line. there are many ways to say you don't like something. why be unnecessarily harsh? afterall, dario is a human being.


Completely agree...there's certainly a better way to say the same thing (even when it's not necessarily nice), but I doubt Dario's feeling are hurt. He seems pretty secure.

[Lionel]

Exactly. BTW, this Peg is gorgeous.

[yashcha]

I always thought the rear brake joint on my TIG welded Hampsten Mudpig was pretty damn cool and somewhat industrial.

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f331/yashcha/Brakebridge.jpg

[Aaron O]

that sentiment could be applied equally to quite a few posts in this thread. there is a long distance between saying that dario's paint schemes aren't your cup of tea and some of the language used so far. every opinion has two elements: the substance and the style in which it's delivered. on substance, you can't argue that dario's frames aren't polarizing. but some of the language used seems to cross a line. there are many ways to say you don't like something. why be unnecessarily harsh? afterall, dario is a human being.

Duly noted, though I was going for humor as much as legit. opinion. Dario is so loved and respected that I assumed it would be taken for what it was...a silly, irreverant view of someone who gets major accolades from people that know a lot more than me. I'm pretty certain that if Datrio read that he'd think "idiot" and move on, which is exactly what I'd do if I were a well respected frame builder making a living doing what I love.

I am CERTAIN that better riders than me, and people who know a lot more about frames than me, have far more substantial opinions than I do. I don't really like the aesthetics of them, but that's personal. This is why there are different builders and brands.

I very much respect the way that you wrote this...your point is delivered and understood.

[Elefantino]

I kind of like my Spectrum

http://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=84393&stc=1
If I were a misogynist, I'd say your Spectrum has a nice bottom bracket but little else to offer.

[danielpack22@ma]

I think the guys over at Firefly are doing great work with stainless and tig.

[Kontact]

If I were a misogynist, I'd say your Spectrum has a nice bottom bracket but little else to offer.
I would have just said that Spectrum doesn't make any tig'd steel bikes, so that picture, "nice" as it is, doesn't belong.

[christian]

I have a tig'ed Pegoretti. I get excited about tig'ed steel bikes every single time I ride it. In fact, I think I'll ride to work tomorrow! (BTW, you get excited about bikes by looking at them. Them's odd criteria! :beer: )

[Lionel]

http://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=78144&stc=1

Carl Strong welding

[jamesutiopia]

How about Fat City alumnus Chris Igleheart (http://iglebike.com)

[Gummee]

That road lite is spectacular. Always wanted one of those
I had one. Didn't like the way it rode. Felt.... dead I guess is the best word for it. I got mine used tho, so it could've been abused by the POs.

At the same time, I had several other bikes that rode nicer, including my 02 S-Works (AL) frame.

M

[bikerboy337]

i've always loved the look of peg's...

i'm a fan of my Ted Wojcik... beautiful welds and i love my dropouts... true tig master that has been doing it for years...

[round]

Its almost like his approach to bikes is nihilism..
Ciao Aaron,
that's is interesting , please can you explain better this point.
thanks

[Aaron O]

Ciao Aaron,
that's is interesting , please can you explain better this point.
thanks

I think I'm just going to say ignore my point and understand it's just personal taste from someone who's opinion really doesn't matter. I think others are right...I went too far and missed my mark. Rather than explain it, I'd rather just back pedal and spin doctor :)

[soulspinner]

Look at the tigs on Eriksens page. Theyre purty :beer:

[jmeloy]

http://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=78144&stc=1

Carl Strong welding
Welds done right are a thing of beauty. My Strong looks just like that and MORE IMPORTANTLY the ride is outstanding. That's my new Bedford in the gallery and I'll take that craftmanship any day. Even better, there's a Peg in my near future and the paint will mean something to ME.

[dekindy]

I guess I have it backwards. I like it best when you cannot see the welds at all. Just have never understood all this fascination with wavy welds. Tig, lugs, and fillet are all better looking in my opinion.

[slowandsteady]

I kind of like my Spectrum
http://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=84393&stc=1
I like your Spectrum too. and the bike rack aint bad either! Where can i get me one of those?

[Spin71]

Actually if you cared to read the OP, it's about art and what floats your "aesthetic boat"....your attacks on Paul and Aaron are over the top and make you look like a (fill in the blank)...Dario's work (especially on the finish side) is polarizing and is well known to ellicit love/hate feelings, and although I respect the man, and would not argue with those that love his bikes, I find most of them ugly (as a matter of taste). I don't think Dario would advertise that his welds are the most beautiful ever (not that they're either bad (aesthetically) or ineffective). Last time I checked, that is not an attack on your family. Bro, you need to dial it down a little.

I read the OP. He mentioned tubes, drops, and brazing. No mention paint. I read just fine "bro". Call me crazy, I buy/choose frames based on ride, not how cool it looks standing still against my garage door.

[rugbysecondrow]

I read the OP. He mentioned tubes, drops, and brazing. No mention paint. I read just fine "bro". Call me crazy, I buy/choose frames based on ride, not how cool it looks standing still against my garage door.


I agree with you, that is why I think this discussion about aesthetics is far fetched (brazed pennies???). TIG bikes, in my view, are meant to be more utilitarian, simple and straightforward with no sacrifice towards quality but no terrible excess either. They are tools, quality tools, but tools none the less. These are not heirloom bikes, but bikes to be ridden, pushed, raced, dirtied, traveled with etc. I have not ridden a Peg, so no argument from me on the ride, but I have two Bedfords that I can attest both ride differently, but perfect for their purpose.

I think it is wrong though to ignore the artistic flair purposefully crafted into the Pegs, that would be like ignoring Slawta's Landshark paintings...just not able to be done. Some might see it as slight of hand, some might see it as artistry, others might see it as hype building...it really only matters how the customer, the actual buyer with cash in hand sees it. The point is that it is art, rolling art, functional art, but it is made to be art on a bike. Once you cross that line, people will react and you can't control that.

I am glad you like you Peg, I am glad it puts a big ????ing smile on your face, that is what it is about.

[arcadian]

Pretty hard for me to get excited about a tiged bike. I do like the Cielo's. They are a bit of mix of construction techniques, so that may be why I like them.

[Bob Ross]

I suppose I can sorta maybe understand OP's premise...if the only TIG'd frames you ever saw were cheap aluminum mountain bikes.

And I can kinda almost understand why the process of TIG welding might perhaps seem a bit less, oh, romantic (?) than brazing lugs or fillets...again, only if the only TIG'd frames you ever saw were cheap aluminum mountain bikes.

But I look at my TIG welded steel Carl Strong road frame and not only don't I see any welding artifacts that might indicate how the frame was fabricated, I just don't see anything that would make me do anything less than swoon.

http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu144/Dildo-Boy/BobR7.jpg
http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu144/Dildo-Boy/BobR3.jpg
http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu144/Dildo-Boy/BobR1.jpg


Obviously I'm biased, but still...

[Aaron O]

I suppose I can sorta maybe understand OP's premise...if the only TIG'd frames you ever saw were cheap aluminum mountain bikes.

And I can kinda almost understand why the process of TIG welding might perhaps seem a bit less, oh, romantic (?) than brazing lugs or fillets...again, only if the only TIG'd frames you ever saw were cheap aluminum mountain bikes.

But I look at my TIG welded steel Carl Strong road frame and not only don't I see any welding artifacts that might indicate how the frame was fabricated, I just don't see anything that would make me do anything less than swoon.

http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu144/Dildo-Boy/BobR7.jpg
http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu144/Dildo-Boy/BobR3.jpg
http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu144/Dildo-Boy/BobR1.jpg


Obviously I'm biased, but still...

I think we all agree that tig'd steel bikes can ride wonderfully, and I certainly am not worrying about the welds when I ride my Poprad. At the same time, lugged bikes can ride wonderfully too, and I find them more attractive. That's a 100% aesthetic, subjective opinion...and I have to say your Strong is WONDERFUL! Dario's bikes don't do it for me, but neither do many other builders.

For custom bike dollars, I want something that rides well AND appeals to my sense of aesthetics. I think the paint job selection, and personal input into appearance, is part of what makes the custom process so fun.

[jmeloy]

I think since he chimed in, he deserves a response?
His work is clearly recognized for ride quality above all and for presenting a unique "look" as well and the sooner mine arrives the better ( ;) for Dario's benefit)

[firerescuefin]

.....deleted.

Post was not moving the thread forward.

[Aaron O]

Spin, I usually don't lecture on literacy or manners, but since you seem to lack either, I posted the OP. If you'll notice, Bicycle Tricycle's post (which I have no problem with) mentions visual stimulation...nothing about/ ride who the top TIG builder is. He is clearly alluding to flair and aesthetics. Last I checked, those pennies weren't adding to the ride.

I have never thrown a leg over a Peg. I respect Dario's work, and more importanly, those that know infinitely more than I do about bikes have a high level of respect as well. Aesthetically (which I remind you is what BT mentioned) his welds aren't going to win any beauty contests on looks alone.

Many of your posts are hostile. Not sure where your anger is coming from, but I hope you get it worked out.

He's ticked because I insulted his bike...one he obviously loves and spent a lot of money on. I get that. I thought people would understand I was exaggerating for effect, but it didn't come through.

Oh for a time machine.

[Lionel]

Aaron, just curious, is that one of your bikes below?

http://i936.photobucket.com/albums/ad205/aolk67/Photo0586.jpg

[Joachim]

As usual it goes totally off topic with personal insults when people just can't accept everyone has different tastes. Some like steak, some like fish, some like TIG and some like lugged. No reason to insult meatatarians or vegetarians (TIGatarians?). I like both personally, which makes liking frames easy and deciding on one, difficult. I even like lugged carbon...cue gasp.

[EDS]

There is no question aesthetics plays a role in the bikes we purchase, particularly a custom bike. Nothing wrong with people liking different things either.

What is stupid is saying something lacks merit because it does not adhere to their own personal tastes.

[spacemen3]

TIG welds can usually be remedied with a fancy paint-job. ;)

[Aaron O]

Aaron, just curious, is that one of your bikes below?

http://i936.photobucket.com/albums/ad205/aolk67/Photo0586.jpg
Yes sir. Not the prettiest, but I sure do love it. That was obviously taken before I dialed saddle in.

[Lionel]

Not the prettiest
Agreed :)

[jr59]

Yes sir. Not the prettiest, but I sure do love it. That was obviously taken before I dialed saddle in.


Strongly disagree.

I think it looks just like what it is,
a very comfy all day workhorse!

And that is a very good looking thing.

Beauty is in the eye of beholder, and the way someone sees it.

[Aaron O]

Agreed :)

It sure looks prettier to me when I'm riding it :beer:

The bike I most fell in love with, when I was 15, was a Mass. Merlin...and it's everything I've dreamed.

[pmarkos]

I like what Waterford does with the s3 tubsets. They make a nice looking frame and they ride great.

[that guy]

Brent Steelman is not-too-shabby

http://i54.tinypic.com/vvsao.jpg

[IJWS]

Chris Dekerf. Fantastic work-smooth tigs mixed with Brazing where the design calls for it. Elegeant and....fu**in' Rad!

http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/9351/dsc00788kc.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/109/dsc00788kc.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/6205/dsc00794fd.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/88/dsc00794fd.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

crummy pics though-apologies


p.s. DeKerf was perfecting segmented stays when the sycip brothers were still in art school,

Pegeretti's are comprised of some well manipulated tubes, but the paint is overly expressive and doesn't have the well-designed aesthetic that companies like SpeedVagen and Baum posess...and those tall headtubes break my heart.

+1 on the Steelman frames--Brent's been making amazing frames since they could be had stock, with no wait, for $1200.

[93legendti]

http://www.serotta.com/Bikes/Road/CoeurdAcierSE/

http://www.serotta.com/Bikes/Road/ColoradoGS/

[Ozz]

Chris Dekerf. Fantastic work-smooth tigs mixed with Brazing where the design calls for it. Elegeant and....fu**in' Rad!....
+1

I was on jury duty a couple months ago with a guy who road a DeKerf....it was pretty awesome.

[MMcG]

Ted Wojcik and Tig welding - Ted rocks!

[rugbysecondrow]

TIG'd Frame and Fork prices:
Custom SV: $3800
Custom Peg: $4400-$5000
Custom Cielo: Oops, doesn't look like it is custom, but still about $1900 for stock.
Custom Strong: $2300
Custom Kelly Bedford: $1995


Now, having looked at these prices, different questions start to arise for me.

The first that comes to mind, Is it really about the ride?

[saab2000]

I've got a soft spot for welded steel bikes. This is the best value bike I've ever owned. Nearly sold it last fall but decided to keep it and did some mods with some parts which survived the sale of some other bikes. Not really a silver on purpose look but that's how it turned out and the bike looks pretty nice like this.

Rides great too. I've thought about getting an F3 fork for it but there's no hurry.

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6203/6030466232_3af23324c6_b.jpg

[christian]

Saab, that's still among my favorite paint jobs on any bike ever. Looks like a 57... so if you ever need to sell, just PM me! :)

[saab2000]

I actually had it up for sale for a while but nobody was interested. Pretty glad actually. Built it back up and have several hundred miles on it for the year.

I don't get any animosity towards welded bikes. Lugs are cool and look good under many circumstances but welds are nice too and allow for more tube variety.

And when you're riding it it doesn't matter. Just a joining method and clean welds are just as nice to look at IMHO.

BTW, I can't believe I got this bike for so little money. It's about 6 years old now in my hands. I got it on eBay for $611.00, shipped to my house for the frame, fork and Chris King headset. The paint alone would be more than that in upcharges.

I bid on it and nobody outbid me. Best bargain I've ever had, not just because of the price but because of how nice a bike it turned out to be. It was my first Serotta and I had to see what all the hype was about. The first ride was really eye opening. Smooth and responsive and stable are the three words that come to mind.

[bicycletricycle]

i just wanted to say thank you to everyone who was able to express an opinion about the original post without personally insulting anybody or being combative.

Some people have posted some pretty cool detail shots of some nice frames here which is what i hoped would happen.

I wanted to share my Tournesol here. It is pretty plain Jane I really like it. The dropouts and brake bridge are subtle but nice and those IF welds are super tidy.

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae236/bicycletricycle/tournesol6.jpg

[Ahneida Ride]

"TIG welded steel frames are pretty hard for me to get excited about. Looking at some Bedfords made me realize this. So many of them just look exactly the same. Stock Tubes plus stock dropouts plus stock braze ons equals boring. Pegoretti, Speedvagen, cielo and a few others put in some work to make their bikes special."

--------

I bop in at the Bedford Blast furnace and I gotta say, what I see there is
anything but boring.

All Bedford Tig frames are built to the same impeccable standards as his
lugged frames. The Tig frames are ALL custom fit and custom created.
That means stainless parts, unique dropouts, custom paint. etc. are all
potential options to create a dream ride.

I speculate that about 1/2 of the Tig Bedford's have Custom enhancements. Kelly built a Tig steel for my good buddy last summer
She elected for a few stainless bits, harlequin paint and a few braze ons.
She LOVES the bike.

The other half appreciates Kelly's choice of standard content and
enjoy a custom fit bike built by a Master with 30+ years of experience
in 8 weeks and at a competitive price. The genesis of the Tig frames
since inception is to offer a True Custom Geometry Frame with an
impeccable ride in about 8 weeks ... and keep it affordable.

The Tig welding on a Bedford is immaculate and resembles fillet brazed.
Paint can hide a multitude of sins. One purchases a frame from a guy
like Kelly, cause they know that what they do not see will be
exemplary. To me at least, Perfection = Special.

But talk is cheap ... ask the guy/gal who rides one.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . and his owners are raving.

His prices are more than reasonable, too.

. . . a fair number of the posters in this thread are raving, too!

And their stuff is FREE! :p

BBD

[BumbleBeeDave]

I'm sure this will get me banned, but Dario makes hands down the ugliest, most simultaneously dull and garish, bikes I've ever seen. Its almost like his approach to bikes is nihilism. I'm sure they ride great, but i'm also sure I'd never permit one in my home. His bikes make cf look good and it's almost as if he works to make them that ugly.

Not that I have an opinion. It's all taste.

Ti looks good tig...spectrum qualifies. My lemonds look ok tig.

. . . is not the salon. :rolleyes:

BBD

[e-RICHIE]

yeah -
. . . is not the salon. :rolleyes:

BBD

it's the beehive atmo.

ps

arrange disorder

:cool: :cool: :cool:
:cool: :cool: :cool:
:cool: :cool: :cool:

[Aaron O]

Time machine...my kingdom for a time machine.

[merlincustom1]

Ciao Aaron,
that's is interesting , please can you explain better this point.
thanks
http://www.counterorder.com/art.html

Probably not what Aaron had in mind.

[firerescuefin]

i just wanted to say thank you to everyone who was able to express an opinion about the original post without personally insulting anybody or being combative.

I think in hindsight, taking a shot or discounting KB's work in comparison to SV or Peg (Comparing apples and oranges with regard to cost and target demographic) was a poor start to the thread.

Perhaps saying show me your cool Tigd bikes would have been a little more positive. As I, Paul, and Ahneida mentioned, Kelly is capable of getting as artsy as you want...for a price, and most likely it's still going to come in way under SV or Dario, turn around time is going to be faster, and it's fully custom. Anyhow, just a thought.

[pdonk]

I'd suggest Chris Dekerf as a master tig welder and a pretty good fillet guy too.

www.dekerf.com

[Uncle Jam's Army]

I'm very happy with the aesthetics of my Steelman XCr tig'ed bike (inclulding the awesome welds). Brent knows a thing or two about making an awesome frame.

[Kirk Pacenti]

Bontrager Race Lite:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-MhtGzeEaPdE/TYwS5u_3mQI/AAAAAAAAAZQ/imaoHUTcxJg/s1600/Bontrager5.JPG
Skinny custom tubes, gussets, general weirdness. The skinniest looking bike I've seen. I love the way it looks nothing like a Ti, aluminum or traditional lugged steel bike, and I think that makes the tig welds seem right.

Haven't seen anything since that does it for me. Those bumpy welds like in that Peg dropout picture just don't do it for me, so it takes something special to make tig'd steel catch my eye.

This one brings back some memories... one of the first 'compact' road frames to come to market (iirc). I never cared too much for the compact look, but the ride was really dialed. One of the more comfortable frames I've ever ridden. Should never have sold mine.

Cheers,
KP

[mgd]

yep, compact design aside, the all-business approach to that frame is just perfect, and the little mtb-style gussets are cute.

[Kontact]

I think it is a little funny that a picture thread of tig'd steel bikes includes pictures of a ti bike, a fillet brazed seat cluster and several head on shots that obscure any view of what makes them applicable.


I don't like the way steel welds look, so for me the attraction is either about minimalism - a weld so smooth that it looks like a tiny fillet braze - or the use of tig welding to achieve rather unorthodox construction - like the gussets on the old Bontragers.

That said, the beauty of this type of joinery is rarely seen because of the paint, so I offer this rather handsome (almost Ti like) 953 weld from IF:
http://cdn4.media.cyclingnews.futurecdn.net/photos/2006/tech/features/nahmbs063/if_953_prototype_head_tube_weld_600.jpg

[jr59]

yeah -


it's the beehive atmo.

ps

arrange disorder

:cool: :cool: :cool:
:cool: :cool: :cool:
:cool: :cool: :cool:

Well played! atmo! :banana:

[Pete Serotta]

Spectrum, Moots, Serotta for ti, and many steel ones from the other builders here that do tig are also very nice. Tig in steel is cheaper than lug or filet and have "likers" or lusters. There are many more as as nice tigs, except from the ones I have seen from overseas mft.

Look to see the one that fits your budget and puts a smile on you :D


Pete

[bicycletricycle]

I didnt say that bedfords were not a good deal or not well made or not custom for the rider or anything like that. I did not think that people would get so pissed. I was not comparing them to SV or PEG directly except that they were both TIG welded. I just wanted to see what TIG bikes people think are really nice. Posting here can be a little exhausting.

to be clear, bedfords are nice.
the TIG welded bedfords I have seen don't turn me on.
lots of nice TIGd frames don't do much for me.
I think that that is all right isn't it?

Its not like I said that they were crappy riding ugly bikes that I do not like and wish they were no longer made.

[eddief]

see below.

[rugbysecondrow]

I don't think anybody is pissed, I just think you framed an unfair conversation, regardless of whether you meant to or not.

It is fair for you to not like certain types of frames, it is America after all. :beer:


I didnt say that bedfords were not a good deal or not well made or not custom for the rider or anything like that. I did not think that people would get so pissed. I was not comparing them to SV or PEG directly except that they were both TIG welded. I just wanted to see what TIG bikes people think are really nice. Posting here can be a little exhausting.

to be clear, bedfords are nice.
the TIG welded bedfords I have seen don't turn me on.
lots of nice TIGd frames don't do much for me.
I think that that is all right isn't it?

Its not like I said that they were crappy riding ugly bikes that I do not like and wish they were no longer made.

[eddief]

this is one of best done bikes in my 10 years on the forum.

love that thing. i wish my arms were longer or i was more flexible so my bikes could have the balanced look of this one.

is a fine tigged frame supposed have bumps or is great tig supposed to approach the smooth of fillet? the bumps do nothing for me and my Gunnar ain't got none.

i like those perfect bumps only on ti joints. that's where they belong.




I suppose I can sorta maybe understand OP's premise...if the only TIG'd frames you ever saw were cheap aluminum mountain bikes.

And I can kinda almost understand why the process of TIG welding might perhaps seem a bit less, oh, romantic (?) than brazing lugs or fillets...again, only if the only TIG'd frames you ever saw were cheap aluminum mountain bikes.

But I look at my TIG welded steel Carl Strong road frame and not only don't I see any welding artifacts that might indicate how the frame was fabricated, I just don't see anything that would make me do anything less than swoon.

http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu144/Dildo-Boy/BobR7.jpg
http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu144/Dildo-Boy/BobR3.jpg
http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu144/Dildo-Boy/BobR1.jpg


Obviously I'm biased, but still...

[TTBS]

It is fair for you to not like certain types of frames, it is America after all. :beer:

No. This is a forum on the www.

[Ahneida Ride]

One compelling reason for TIG steel is value ...

A competent builder can offer his clientele an exceptional Custom
ride at a level one can afford. Many people are pricing out a complete
bike, not just a frame.

Value, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.

TIG welds can be very clean .... and when painted is super close to
Fillet. I think the previous pictures in this thread prove this.

The downside? the romance of lugs is lost ... but then Ti frames
are not lugged either.

[retrogrouchy]

Once again Aaron we are on the same page. I feel the same about Dario's bikes but never mentioned it for fear of being banned for life. I respect the man as a builder but his frames just don't do it for me.
Nihilism, that must be exhausting.

Mutt

+1

[Peter B]

Once again Aaron we are on the same page. I feel the same about Dario's bikes but never mentioned it for fear of being banned for life. I respect the man as a builder but his frames just don't do it for me.
Nihilism, that must be exhausting.

Mutt

Aesthetics are personal. And personally, I think Jack did pretty well with this one from Dario.

[Doug Fattic]

There is nothing about a tig-welded frame that does anything for me. I can dress them up with a fancy paint job but they are still too plain underneath (I just changed the word “ugly to “plain”). I’ve spent a lot of time perfecting how to tig weld bicycle frames. I can make ‘em look like smooth little brass fillets. I took the first ti welding class at UBI in1992 when Gary Helfrich - one of the founders of Merlin - was our teacher. I didn’t want to be left out in the cold (and maybe broke) with only old lug building ability while the rest of the bicycling world moved on. When I got back home I mitered lots of practice joints and would spend a half hour or more in the evenings just getting everything down tight. I’ve always wanted to be the best at everything. Gordon, one of the welders at Moots (and a good friend of mine) and John Cherry (whose frames I often painted), showed me their tricks and tig settings.

If building frames was just about the money I’d be in love with tig frames. They are sooo much faster, cheaper and easier for me to make. For example a set of Henry James lugs is a hundred bucks. The bottom bracket shell and fork crown is another hundred. It takes about an once of silver to braze them and that’s another $40. I have to do a lot of work to lugs before they are assembled into a frame and lots of filing afterwards. To do a super job – where the thickness is thinly even everywhere with no rounded edges - can take several days. But in the end it seems worth it to me. I can admire what I’ve done – even before I paint it - and feel really good about my work. But a tig-welded frame is just function only. They are like pole barns compared to wooden ones. Or the soviet era buildings I see when I am in Ukraine. Don’t get me wrong, they have their place when something needs to be more cheaply made. I’ve made them for poor locals who can benefit from a custom. But they don’t speak to me and I hold no affection for them.

Here’s the thing, most framebuilders have an artistic nature in them. More than half of my framebuilding class students (I teach about 30 a year) were art majors in college. And if not straight art majors something related like graphic design or architecture. And if they didn’t take art they play or played in some band. There is a creative side to almost all of us that needs to be expressed. I don’t know that I’ve ever had an accountant take my class (and there has been only a couple of business or marketing majors). If they did, I’m sure they would love the numbers provided by tig-welded frames.

I understand that for some a bicycle is all about the ride and the paint can provide whatever (if any) aesthetics are needed. I don’t expect or need others to share my views and I’ll respect theirs.

And by the way, a tig-welded frame is almost always heavier than a lugged frame (not that the weight difference matters).

[Jack Brunk]

Damn Peter that is a good looking bike. It never sang to me though. It wasn't what my previous BLE was. One man's loss is another man's gain.
I will at some point build up a Love #3 because to this day the one I owned previously was the best climbing bike I've ever been on. I just don't like the current paint. Call me shallow.

[Pizzaguy]

Very cool looking bike. Thanks.

[Pizzaguy]

I think some TIG welds if done with attention to detail have a nice clean look to them that even lucks can't do.

[Pete Serotta]

Jack is a class A cyclist in talent, miles, and also riding many different bikes from all over the US and the world. Wish I could get him to NY area one of these days for some CA wine and some riding with a fast group at Cyclesport aound Bear Mtn and 9W and also Signature cycle in Conn.

I would have a :beer: ready at the end - - for my ride would be shorter and much much slower,

Also an excellent Turley for a toast to Robyn and her health,

PETE


Damn Peter that is a good looking bike. It never sang to me though. It wasn't what my previous BLE was. One man's loss is another man's gain.
I will at some point build up a Love #3 because to this day the one I owned previously was the best climbing bike I've ever been on. I just don't like the current paint. Call me shallow.

[jr59]

Here is a :beer: to all who posted on this thread.

Many different opinions on this one without the "mine is best"
shouting match. :beer: Well done!!!

[rugbysecondrow]

I like what Doug wrote.

I think it comes down to:

How do you view bikes?

What do you value in a bike?

What is the purpose for your bike?

Is fit compatable with desired aesthetic?

As a customer, you toil over these decisions ( part of the fun of going custom right?) so the answer is going to be as personal as the project. The builder is the implementer of the resulting answers to these questions, they facilitate the dream and use their genius to help us, as the rider, breath life into the dream when we straddle the bike and turn the first pedal.

[Aaron O]

I like what Doug wrote.

I think it comes down to:

How do you view bikes?

What do you value in a bike?

What is the purpose for your bike?

Is fit compatable with desired aesthetic?

As a customer, you toil over these decisions ( part of the fun of going custom right?) so the answer is going to be as personal as the project. The builder is the implementer of the resulting answers to these questions, they facilitate the dream and use their genius to help us, as the rider, breath life into the dream when we straddle the bike and turn the first pedal.

I liked what Doug wrote as well. If TIG welding had an actual advantage for steel, I'd use it (like I'm willing to use tig'd ti), but the only advantage seems to be price and I'm willing to pay for lugs or hunt down classic lugged steel that appeals to me.

To me the interesting part of tig and steel is that, as I understand it, the more modern steel tubesets are designed to take advantage of tig welding. Would tubesets have advanced further, for the purposes of lugged frames, had they been built around that technology?

[William]

Tig is cool.....but fillet brazed is sexy!!! (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=36649&highlight=fillet)






William :cool:

[Lionel]

To me the interesting part of tig and steel is that, as I understand it, the more modern steel tubesets are designed to take advantage of tig welding. Would tubesets have advanced further, for the purposes of lugged frames, had they been built around that technology?

Some of the most advanced steel like Spirit and XCr for Columbus, 853 and 953 for Reynolds can be built with lugs. You see more TIG because it is faster and cheaper to build it that way and marginally lighter.

[Bob Ross]

this is one of best done bikes in my 10 years on the forum.

love that thing. i wish my arms were longer or i was more flexible so my bikes could have the balanced look of this one.

Thanks. Obviously I take no credit for it (other than having been born with the requisite long-enough arms & adequate flexibility, I guess), Carl really outdid my expectations with this bike.
http://bobcowin.smugmug.com/New-York-Cycle-Club/A-Sig-Ride-9-2011/i-zWKTXCc/0/M/BCI0013-M.jpg

[Bob Ross]

More than half of my framebuilding class students (I teach about 30 a year) were art majors in college. And if not straight art majors something related like graphic design or architecture. And if they didn’t take art they play or played in some band.

As a musician myself I find that last item fascinating. While I'm almost obsessively intrigued by the details of framebuilding it never occurred to me to pursue it as a craft...but I guess I can see why it would be appealing.

Uh-oh...

[arcadian]

Love what Doug wrote. Very interesting observations.

[rugbysecondrow]

I think this TIG'd bike is special>>>

http://i413.photobucket.com/albums/pp217/phpeter/Bedford%20Sport%20Tourer/IMG_1832.jpg

http://i413.photobucket.com/albums/pp217/phpeter/Bedford%20Sport%20Tourer/IMG_1838.jpg


[IMG]http://i413.photobucket.com/albums/pp217/phpeter/Bedford%20Sport%20Tourer/IMG_1835.jpg

http://i413.photobucket.com/albums/pp217/phpeter/Bedford%20Sport%20Tourer/IMG_1844.jpg

[bicycletricycle]

i really like your bedford rugby. The color is great and the polished fork crown to match the couplers is classy.

The big flat tabs for fender and rack mounting on the socket dropouts bother me but that is being pretty picky.

Didnt you have this up for sale for a bit?

[rugbysecondrow]

i really like your bedford rugby. The color is great and the polished fork crown to match the couplers is classy.

The big flat tabs for fender and rack mounting on the socket dropouts bother me but that is being pretty picky.

Didnt you have this up for sale for a bit?

Only as an April Fools Day joke. :beer:

This would be the last bike I sell, it is fantastic!

The tabs make sense when in use, I like them because they are not cluttered or compromised, at least to me. It makes outfitting it easier IMO.

Thanks!

[Kontact]

I liked what Doug wrote as well. If TIG welding had an actual advantage for steel, I'd use it (like I'm willing to use tig'd ti), but the only advantage seems to be price and I'm willing to pay for lugs or hunt down classic lugged steel that appeals to me.

To me the interesting part of tig and steel is that, as I understand it, the more modern steel tubesets are designed to take advantage of tig welding. Would tubesets have advanced further, for the purposes of lugged frames, had they been built around that technology?
If you are referring to air hardening tubing like Ox Platinum or 853, some people say brazing times get more out of such tubesets than welding.

I think the main point in claims about weldability was to put some distance between silver only tubesets like 753 and stuff that is more generally useful.

I also like what Doug said, because it is always nice when a professional confirms my bias. But it is the reason I don't understand paying someone like IF so much for a TIG'd steel bike. TIG'd Gunnars, TET or LeMonds make sense to me, bikes costing several times that; less so.

But I also understand that the price of things isn't a straight accounting of time+materials. It's just that there's some really nice lug work and fillet brazing going on in the US for those kind of sums, and it seems a shame to pass them up for really expensive versions of sub-$1000 frame tech.

[rugbysecondrow]

But I also understand that the price of things isn't a straight accounting of time+materials. It's just that there's some really nice lug work and fillet brazing going on in the US for those kind of sums, and it seems a shame to pass them up for really expensive versions of sub-$1000 frame tech.

Is it the ingredients or the chef? The paint or the painter? The lumber or the architect?

There are some nice looking lugged frames being built at a reasonable rate, but how do they ride? The guy might be able to construct a frame, but can he tailor a bike, that which truly makes it custom? Maybe, but why chance it? Pay for proven expertise, Bedford, Kirk, Wages, Strong, Kellog...you get the idea.

Ingredients being equal, which they mostly are, you pay for the man.

[Kontact]

Sure, but I'm giving credit to Teasdale for being able to make a custom frame, and your list is full of lugs - only builders.

All I'm saying is if I'm dropping $2500 on a steel frame from a big name, I'll choose a name that uses lugs over one that welds. And if I wanted (for some reason) a welded bike, I'd seek a builder of excellent reputation who's prices reflect his process, as well as skill.

Really, a $3000 welded frame is more expensive than a $3000 lugged bike from Spectrum, Kirk, etc. You're getting more of a master's time and expertise with one over the other.

[Lionel]

Who says you have to choose one or the other?

http://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=57551&stc=1

[rugbysecondrow]

Sure, but I'm giving credit to Teasdale for being able to make a custom frame, and your list is full of lugs - only builders.

All I'm saying is if I'm dropping $2500 on a steel frame from a big name, I'll choose a name that uses lugs over one that welds. And if I wanted (for some reason) a welded bike, I'd seek a builder of excellent reputation who's prices reflect his process, as well as skill.

Really, a $3000 welded frame is more expensive than a $3000 lugged bike from Spectrum, Kirk, etc. You're getting more of a master's time and expertise with one over the other.

Point taken, some do generally build in lugs, but my point was more about focusing on the expertise of the builder...again, my questions posted before apply...what does one want out of a bike?

I don't think we are in disagreement, $3000 is a lot, which is why I paid $2000 for a Bedford TIG frame and carbon fork, full use of a master builders expertise at a pricepoint that allows customers to get a very well built and great riding frame with a Serotta carbon fork. :banana: Incidentally, for $2950 you can get a Bedford premier frame:
"These are no holds barred whatever you can dream of works of functional, rolling art. Available with either the classic brazed fork or top of the line carbon fork."

Again, it is really what works for the customer and finding a guy who can suit your needs, our needs vary so what works for me and what I value will be different. Now that we are talking tastes, how about Blondes, Brunettes or Red Heads? :beer:

[Climb01742]

This would be the last bike I sell, it is fantastic

that's a beautiful, balanced machine. showing that utility+grace can live happily everafter.

[Aaron O]

Some of the most advanced steel like Spirit and XCr for Columbus, 853 and 953 for Reynolds can be built with lugs. You see more TIG because it is faster and cheaper to build it that way and marginally lighter.
They CAN be used with lugs, but my understanding is that most of their advantages over steel like 753 and nivachrome are really more applicable for tig. In other words, while those steels can be used for lugs, the improvements really don't provide much advantage in that direction.

My understanding is admittedly limited.

[forrestw]

I find myself w/ Doug on this. Note however that the principal reason lugged frames predominated for something like 80 years was primarily economic, it was the best way to produce a lightweight frameset and to leverage the strength of improvement in alloy steels.

Today what I don't like about welded steel is that the builders do silly crap to distinguish their art like adorning with pennies and ultra fancy paint. By the same token I'm not a big fan of fancy investment cast lugs, preferring plain lugs customized by the builder.

While it's true that most steel development is optimized for welding, it remains possible to build an equal or better frame using lugs and silver.

That said, cool optimizations like Colorado concept aren't practical using lugs and while Henry James makes lugs in angles suited to compact geometry,
TIG has an advantage in design flexibility.

A builder working in welded construction needs at least a good mitering jig, probably a milling machine and while the cost of that and a TIG welder used to be pretty high, they're quite affordable today.

Having built a lugged frame myself, I keenly enjoyed the process of building the whole shebang with hacksaw, files, torch and simple measuring tools.

[e-RICHIE]

They CAN be used with lugs, but my understanding is that most of their advantages over steel like 753 and nivachrome are really more applicable for tig. In other words, while those steels can be used for lugs, the improvements really don't provide much advantage in that direction.

My understanding is admittedly limited.

i don't think 753 has been made for 25 years atmo, and as far as the other material that i think you are trying to reference, the pipes are not made for one joining process or the other; you (me, dazza, zanc, dario...) may choose either and employ lugs or weld them. the only difference is that some sets have shorter butt lengths and transitions so you have to be aware of this when the tubes are trimmed. there is also that, er - renowned type of tube that gets stronger AFTER it's brass brazed or tig welded. but this material does not preclude one from using a lower temp rod should that be the filler material of choice atmo. also, wrt this thing about the improvement only being part of the equation AFTER the high temperature joining process is complete: please, can someone here be the first to say he likes his bicycle because the tig or brass brazing really did spike the ride in a positive way?! sheesh the things some suppliers put out there in order to make a market...

ps

arrange disorder

:p :p :p
;) ;) ;)
:D :D :D

[forrestw]

They CAN be used with lugs, but my understanding is that most of their advantages over steel like 753 and nivachrome are really more applicable for tig. In other words, while those steels can be used for lugs, the improvements really don't provide much advantage in that direction.

My understanding is admittedly limited.
753 can only be joined by silver brazing. I'd agree that 853 should work better in welded construction, silver brazing doesn't develop enough heat to air harden. Though bronze might, I don't like the larger HAZ in that application.

[Lionel]

i don't think 753 has been made for 25 years atmo, and as far as the other material that i think you are trying to reference, the pipes are not made for one joining process or the other; you (me, dazza, zanc, dario...) may choose either and employ lugs or weld them. the only difference is that some sets have shorter butt lengths and transitions so you have to be aware of this when the tubes are trimmed. there is also that, er - renowned type of tube that gets stronger AFTER it's brass brazed or tig welded. but this material does not preclude one from using a lower temp rod should that be the filler material of choice atmo. also, wrt this thing about the improvement only being part of the equation AFTER the high temperature joining process is complete: please, can someone here be the first to say he likes his bicycle because the tig or brass brazing really did spike the ride in a positive way?! sheesh the things some suppliers put out there in order to make a market...

ps

arrange disorder

:p :p :p
;) ;) ;)
:D :D :D

Here you go. :beer:

[biker72]

I've got a soft spot for welded steel bikes. This is the best value bike I've ever owned. Nearly sold it last fall but decided to keep it and did some mods with some parts which survived the sale of some other bikes. Not really a silver on purpose look but that's how it turned out and the bike looks pretty nice like this.

Rides great too. I've thought about getting an F3 fork for it but there's no hurry.

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6203/6030466232_3af23324c6_b.jpg
I'll take it.... :D
Nice color combination...

[saab2000]

I'll take it.... :D
Nice color combination...

This bike does pretty much everything right. It's not quite as clean right now as when this pic was taken.

I'd like to take credit for having good taste on the paint design, but it's someone else's design. This was a bike for the Flanders Bros. Racing team in Minneapolis from the late '90s and early 00's. When I got it it had been barely ridden I think and the condition was basically a 9.9 out of 10, with just a few paint blemishes from normal usage. I'd guess a couple thousand miles, at most, and probably easy miles because the bike was in basically perfect shape.

Someone else designed it (Kelly Bedford's name is on the build sheet) and someone else came up with the paint scheme. I'm the beneficiary of this good taste and good quality and god knows that I have no good taste of my own, I just seize on others' good taste when it's out there. This is as fine a bike as I've ever owned and I'll probably be keeping it for a long time.

Welded steel rocks. But so does lugged steel. It's all good as long as the person who designed the bike knows what they're doing and the person who specced the tubesets knows what they're doing and the person who did the construction knows what they're doing. Whoever had their mitts on this project knew what they were doing.

[Aaron O]

i don't think 753 has been made for 25 years atmo, and as far as the other material that i think you are trying to reference, the pipes are not made for one joining process or the other; you (me, dazza, zanc, dario...) may choose either and employ lugs or weld them. the only difference is that some sets have shorter butt lengths and transitions so you have to be aware of this when the tubes are trimmed. there is also that, er - renowned type of tube that gets stronger AFTER it's brass brazed or tig welded. but this material does not preclude one from using a lower temp rod should that be the filler material of choice atmo. also, wrt this thing about the improvement only being part of the equation AFTER the high temperature joining process is complete: please, can someone here be the first to say he likes his bicycle because the tig or brass brazing really did spike the ride in a positive way?! sheesh the things some suppliers put out there in order to make a market...

ps

arrange disorder

:p :p :p
;) ;) ;)
:D :D :DI think I'm in over my head and don't have the background in metalurgy or frame building to pick up what you're trying to get across. I'm also not sure I'm expressing what I'm asking well. What I'm trying to say is, my understanding is that there's not much advantage in using 953, 853, spirit, etc. for a lugged frame, whether or not the older tubesets are still available.

[bicycletricycle]

those materials still have a higher tensile strength to start.

[Climb01742]

how many angels can dance on the head of a pen? and would it differ if the pen were made of (appropriately) spirit steel?

[timto]

I like what's going on with this tig bike
Round large chainstays
Cool dropouts (only on these bikes)
Integrated head tube (made in house)
Top spacers (made in house - never mind the actual setup in the pic below)
Neat wishbone

And decent price too!

http://www.fastbike.fr/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Tonic-thumb-500x331-9005.jpg
http://road.cc/sites/default/files/imagecache/node-gallery-display/images/Tonic%20Vanishing%20Point/Tonic%20Vanishing%20Point%20rear%20dropout.jpg
http://road.cc/sites/default/files/imagecache/node-gallery-display/images/Tonic%20Vanishing%20Point/Tonic%20Vanishing%20Point%20front.jpg

[timto]

So Rad!!! and tig!

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2686/4128499260_7bc4f70ecb_z.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2622/4128496562_95a4c4d2cf_z.jpg

I recently bought an Alliance TIG - my first custom. It's spartan. It's perfect.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=79634&stc=1

I knew I was getting off the shelf frame components etc etc but tig fit the bill for the theme I was going for - practical, minimalist, value.

Next up is a kirk terraplane. I love each bike for what they bring. Nice to have variety. I like the spartan look of tig ti too! I think we all several of each type of material and applicable construction method...

These days I'm paying more attention to the bike as a whole - vs focusing too much on particular attributes. The right proportions, lines, and feel pretty much with basic ingredients and a good eye, one can make a 300 dollar garage sale bike look 'right'. In the end it's the completed project that's gotta make the grade. Many TIG bikes turn out 'right' because of the bike it becomes - beyond the frame alone.

[e-RICHIE]

I think I'm in over my head and don't have the background in metalurgy or frame building to pick up what you're trying to get across. I'm also not sure I'm expressing what I'm asking well. What I'm trying to say is, my understanding is that there's not much advantage in using 953, 853, spirit, etc. for a lugged frame,
there's no advantage OR disadvantage atmo. the above "sets" are not sets, they are types of material. the supplier can make the material in a myriad of diameters, guages, shapes, lengths, and combinations thereof. i doubt the pipe itself will really put up a stink if it wanted to be welded but was brazed, or brazed but was welded. and i am certain that regardless of its (or is it its'...) particular psychos, i doubt the rider would know the difference when it all becomes a bicycle.
...whether or not the older tubesets are still available.older tube sets are available from folks that sell old tube sets. more to the point, they are not made (anymore) because the market has spoken atmo.

[Doug Fattic]

I remember talking to Ben about tig welding and tubing back in the late 80’s or early 90’s (I’m vague on exactly when, it could have been 1985). He said Serotta had done a lot of testing of various tig welded tubing joints to see if they could hold up over the long haul. They discovered that the tubing available at the time wouldn’t work well enough; it would break right beyond where the weld had melted the tube. This problem is the reason tubing manufacturers came up with compositions that could withstand the tig process. Fortunately for us lug builders; those tubes will work with brazing techniques too. Well, that’s how I understand what I’ve been told anyway, I’m no metallurgist.

[Aaron O]

there's no advantage OR disadvantage atmo. the above "sets" are not sets, they are types of material. the supplier can make the material in a myriad of diameters, guages, shapes, lengths, and combinations thereof. i doubt the pipe itself will really put up a stink if it wanted to be welded but was brazed, or brazed but was welded. and i am certain that regardless of its (or is it its'...) particular psychos, i doubt the rider would know the difference when it all becomes a bicycle.
older tube sets are available from folks that sell old tube sets. more to the point, they are not made (anymore) because the market has spoken atmo.

Thanks...now I'm following. The frame is not the tubes, the frame is the frame :)

[Joachim]

They discovered that the tubing available at the time wouldn’t work well enough; it would break right beyond where the weld had melted the tube.

This is exactly what happened to my TIG welded Columbus Spirit frame, at the seat tube between the top tube weld and seat stay weld. Smack in the middle of the tube. Maybe they still haven't gotten it right.

Disclaimer: This is not meant to get into an argument over what is best.

[Kontact]

753 can only be joined by silver brazing. I'd agree that 853 should work better in welded construction, silver brazing doesn't develop enough heat to air harden. Though bronze might, I don't like the larger HAZ in that application.
The tubes are already hardened in 853, so really its just a question of whether brazing temps or welding temps can do any damage to the tubing. Because of the air hardening, the answer seems to be no to both, so you end up with nice hard tubing no matter what process you use.

And since the air hardening tubes make for nice light bikes that are fatigue resistant, I don't see how there could be a downside to silver brazing them.

[forrestw]

The tubes are already hardened in 853, so really its just a question of whether brazing temps or welding temps can do any damage to the tubing. Because of the air hardening, the answer seems to be no to both, so you end up with nice hard tubing no matter what process you use.

And since the air hardening tubes make for nice light bikes that are fatigue resistant, I don't see how there could be a downside to silver brazing them.
No, that's not how it works. Carbon is the principal element used to harden steel. The other way is to harden via cold working which is how Cr-mo and mn-mo alloys used in most classic and modern bike tubing get their properties.

The former is mostly lost if the steel is heated above ~800 F and cannot be regained unless heated to 1550 F and then rapidly cooled; depending on composition this can give strengths of 200-300,000 psi. The latter, while only good for about 110,000 psi tensile can conversely be heated to 1550 before properties are lost.

Alloying is what allows 853 to become hard in relatively slow (air) cooling and yet also to not be brittle in the weld section which is heated to 2500 F. However afaik, no alloying can lower the critical temperature below 1550.

So in brazing I'd expect the entire area of the braze and at least 1/4" of heat affected zone to have tensile strength below 100,000 psi, possibly below 80,000 psi -- I don't know this alloy perfectly but those are pretty basic elements (pun intended) of metallurgy.

[maunahaole]

IIRC 853 was put out there because it was meant to be tig welded. Something about how it reacted in the heated area. Someone with a better grasp on the details and history can probably explain it better.

[AngryScientist]

this seems like an excellent thread to mention how much i like my colorado TG. ride is great, and i think it looks fantastic. lugs are nice, tig welding is nice, different strokes for different folks i say, or, have a few of both!

http://i1003.photobucket.com/albums/af153/aero_dynamic8/DSCN1107.jpg

[Ahneida Ride]

with TIG frames about 2/3 the cost of a Lugged frame
(from most leading builders)

I think value and it's perception is the primary factor.

[Kontact]

No, that's not how it works. Carbon is the principal element used to harden steel. The other way is to harden via cold working which is how Cr-mo and mn-mo alloys used in most classic and modern bike tubing get their properties.

The former is mostly lost if the steel is heated above ~800 F and cannot be regained unless heated to 1550 F and then rapidly cooled; depending on composition this can give strengths of 200-300,000 psi. The latter, while only good for about 110,000 psi tensile can conversely be heated to 1550 before properties are lost.

Alloying is what allows 853 to become hard in relatively slow (air) cooling and yet also to not be brittle in the weld section which is heated to 2500 F. However afaik, no alloying can lower the critical temperature below 1550.

So in brazing I'd expect the entire area of the braze and at least 1/4" of heat affected zone to have tensile strength below 100,000 psi, possibly below 80,000 psi -- I don't know this alloy perfectly but those are pretty basic elements (pun intended) of metallurgy.
The air hardenings steels I'm familiar with don't anneal until they get above 1550 or more. Silver brazing is in temper zone, though, so you may be right - what's the psi of 40 Rockwell steel? Henry James claims that Ox Platinum's heat treat is resistant to brazing temps, but I don't know where he gets his information.

[mike p]

Who dosen't like value, but I also love the utilitarian look of a nicely tigged up race bike. A tigged steel race bike screams. RACE no extras, no frills, nothing non essential, and lugs are non essential! I've got lugged bikes and love them too but if I'm thinking "steel race bike" I'm thing tigged. There's no wrong and right to this just opinion.

Mike


with TIG frames about 2/3 the cost of a Lugged frame
(from most leading builders)

I think value and it's perception is the primary factor.

[forrestw]

Yeah, 1200 won't fully anneal but will still lose most of the hardness.~800. Reynolds does recommend high temp bronze brazing I'd

If TT Ox/Platinum has elevated tempering to above 1200, that's quite an accomplishment.