Too light for steel NO

[Pete Serotta]

David Kirk is a world class builder. YES, I have had one for a few years and not only is it one of my favorites BUT whenever my Son in law or nephew come, that is the one they WANT TO borrow from me.

(yeah I have a few choices but steel and Kirk Frame works are to a winning ride.)


Dave, captures the requirements of the client and translates them into an EXCELLENT ride. Mine is not terraplane for I like traditional looks better.


Never heard or even more to the point _ NEVER seen a steel frame that could not be matched to a light or small person.


There are many excellent builders on the forum who have made it their career, years ago , and they excel in execution of what a truly custom frame should be,

Size is one leg but the knowledge comes very evident when they pick the various tubing and angles to meet the riding desires of the client.


PETE

[Smiley]

Steel is Real baby :banana:

[e-RICHIE]

Steel is Real baby :banana:


what does that mean anyway atmo?
the bicycles don't go by themselves.
this focus on material borders on laughable.
a good product is the sum total of all of its components, some even intellectual.
why fetish-ize a pile of stuff?
it's all real.

ps

arrange disorder

:) :) :)
:) :) :)
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :cool:

[rugbysecondrow]

Good morning.

Smileys comment reads like levity to me.

Let's not take ourselves so serious that a jovial comment is turned into something more than what it is.



what does that mean anyway atmo?
the bicycles don't go by themselves.
this focus on material borders on laughable.
a good product is the sum total of all of its components, some even intellectual.
why fetish-ize a pile of stuff?
it's all real.

ps

arrange disorder

:) :) :)
:) :) :)
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :cool:

[e-RICHIE]

Good morning.



http://splinteredsunrise.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/a_few_good_men.jpg

i need you on that wall atmo.

ps

arrange disorder

:cool: :cool: :cool:
:) :) :)
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: ;)

[Mr. Squirrel]

i like, steal wheels!

mr. squirrel

[Charles M]

:beer: e-rich...

[Lionel]

other thread is locked... too bad it was good entertainment :)

[rugbysecondrow]

http://splinteredsunrise.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/a_few_good_men.jpg

i need you on that wall atmo.

ps

arrange disorder

:cool: :cool: :cool:
:) :) :)
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: ;)


Great example of levity, I knew you would understand.

[Charles M]

This one should be too...


The other one devolved exactly like it was always going to. All staring off a second hand comment...


With folks making generalized Bull***** statements about how "A" is all marketing and "Y" is all substance and X bike is good for this kind of person and Y bike is good for that

and Z material can all things to all people.



These material threads are this forums Napoleonic Complex...

Regular as clock work.

[rugbysecondrow]

And cue the sound bite on materials...(insert Pez statement here)

One innocuous comment prompted you and ATMO to not only push it up to the ledge, but you two seem to be the ones trying to push it over? It is funny that you are initiating the argument that you say you dislike so much...irony.

lighten up fellas.

This one should be too...


.

[Lifelover]

Considering the average age of the forum members, can we at least agree that "Wood is Good"!?

[Pete Serotta]

closed and then reopened. please go :bike: for it is summer and while hot, it is only a forum and a person's view for them.

Thanks PETE

[David Kirk]

Boy - a lot of stuff happens while I sleep.

So first and foremost I'm not upset, even in the slightest, with the questions about tube size in regards to frame design. I chimed in when the thread got interesting to me and I was asked good and sincere questions and I was doing my best to answer them. I did not ask that the thread be locked, I was not insulted, and i'm not upset with being asked questions of any sort. If I was insulted or upset every time someone asked a real question I'd spend way to much time upset - and that is no way to live. The framebuilding biz, like so many others I assume, requires that one have a thick skin and I think mine is more than thick enough.

So if you have questions - fire away.

Dave

[e-RICHIE]

And cue the sound bite on materials...(insert Pez statement here)

One innocuous comment prompted you and ATMO to not only push it up to the ledge, but you two seem to be the ones trying to push it over? It is funny that you are initiating the argument that you say you dislike so much...irony.

lighten up fellas.


ruby - despite your post, i was trying to add information and a professional point of view. in fact, i do believe what i wrote above and believe it has value. i work 24/7 with design, material, and fabrication. that folks focus on one component has always confounded me. too often the opinions thrown around regarding bicycles as consumer goods seem myopic. when this happens, i often add - as you call it - a soundbite. many people misunderstand the ad speak and tech speak. my opinions include a bit of both too, as does anyone who posts here, whether we're from the industry, the sport, or the sideline. i guess i don't know why you would want to suppress what could be a good conversation for some who may be truly interested in more than one point of view atmo.

ps

arrange disorder

:D :D :D
:D :D :D
;) :D :D

[Pete Serotta]

:beer: PETE

[mcteague]

what does that mean anyway atmo?
the bicycles don't go by themselves.
this focus on material borders on laughable.
a good product is the sum total of all of its components, some even intellectual.
why fetish-ize a pile of stuff?
it's all real.

ps

arrange disorder

:) :) :)
:) :) :)
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :cool:
Hey, I saw a commercial on Versys' Tour coverage, may have been Cervelo, that said it was the fastest bicycle. Funny, I find that I actually have to pedal hard to go fast! It never occurred to me that the bike is fast all by itself.

Tim

[Pete Serotta]

Boy - a lot of stuff happens while I sleep.

So first and foremost I'm not upset, even in the slightest, with the questions about tube size in regards to frame design. I chimed in when the thread got interesting to me and I was asked good and sincere questions and I was doing my best to answer them. I did not ask that the thread be locked, I was not insulted, and i'm not upset with being asked questions of any sort. If I was insulted or upset every time someone asked a real question I'd spend way to much time upset - and that is no way to live. The framebuilding biz, like so many others I assume, requires that one have a thick skin and I think mine is more than thick enough.

So if you have questions - fire away.

Dave


and :fight: :D

Pete

[Lionel]

Boy - a lot of stuff happens while I sleep.

So first and foremost I'm not upset, even in the slightest, with the questions about tube size in regards to frame design. I chimed in when the thread got interesting to me and I was asked good and sincere questions and I was doing my best to answer them. I did not ask that the thread be locked, I was not insulted, and i'm not upset with being asked questions of any sort. If I was insulted or upset every time someone asked a real question I'd spend way to much time upset - and that is no way to live. The framebuilding biz, like so many others I assume, requires that one have a thick skin and I think mine is more than thick enough.

So if you have questions - fire away.

Dave
A .7/.4/.7 skin would most likely not be thick enough :banana:

I always enjoy your posts, always professional and very informative.

[Pete Serotta]

A .7/.4/.7 skin would most likely not be thick enough :banana:

I always enjoy your posts, always professional and very informative.


Thanks Pete

[rugbysecondrow]

ruby - despite your post, i was trying to add information and a professional point of view. in fact, i do believe what i wrote above and believe it has value. i work 24/7 with design, material, and fabrication. that folks focus on one component has always confounded me. too often the opinions thrown around regarding bicycles as consumer goods seem myopic. when this happens, i often add - as you call it - a soundbite. many people misunderstand the ad speak and tech speak. my opinions include a bit of both too, as does anyone who posts here, whether we're from the industry, the sport, or the sideline. i guess i don't know why you would want to suppress what could be a good conversation for some who may be truly interested in more than one point of view atmo.

ps

arrange disorder

:D :D :D
:D :D :D
;) :D :D

You wrote, and I quote:

what does that mean anyway atmo?
the bicycles don't go by themselves.
this focus on material borders on laughable.
a good product is the sum total of all of its components, some even intellectual.
why fetish-ize a pile of stuff?
it's all real.




I read nothing in that statement that is either informative or professional? It reads like a blustering monologue to me, the opposite of your stated intent.

Again, taking an innocuous comment verbatum and too seriously.

[jlwdm]

You wrote, and I quote:




I read nothing in that statement that is either informative or professional? It reads like a blustering monologue to me, the opposite of your stated intent.

Again, taking an innocuous comment verbatum and too seriously.

Give it a rest.

Jeff

[Joachim]

It's a good thing when I'm riding crossed eye because I'm suffering so much, trying to get to the finish line as fast as possible, that the last thing on my mind is if my steel/carbon/ti/aluminum bike "feels" good. If it fits and I pedal hard, it goes fast. Makes riding a bike so much simpler. Gary Player (a South African golfer) used to say "the harder I practice the luckier I get". The more I ride my bike, the better it feels.

[mister]

You wrote, and I quote:




I read nothing in that statement that is either informative or professional? It reads like a blustering monologue to me, the opposite of your stated intent.

Again, taking an innocuous comment verbatum and too seriously.

haha
you are somethin else

[rugbysecondrow]

haha
you are somethin else


This is true and I know I am standing in a hole as I type this. Its ok with me.

[goonster]

You wrote, and I quote:
Good luck trying to pin e-Richie down on anything. He dictates the terms of his discourse, and that is OK, I guess . . .

[mister]

^ lol
yeah pretty much
and pretty awesome

[e-RICHIE]

Good luck trying to pin e-Richie down on anything. He dictates the terms of his discourse, and that is OK, I guess . . .


i don't know what steel is real means, regardless of whether the phrase is used in genuine conversation or only in jest. i think a bicycle is a complete object and the materials play an equal part along with other details like design, construction, assembly and maintenance of components, and even some of the gaffes that might be part of the maker's execution of it all. you don't need luck trying to pin me down, just ask a question. i can type i don't know with the best of them atmo.

ps

arrange disorder

:p :p :p
:p :p :p
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :)

[fiamme red]

Steel is real, and...

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2588/3874699241_1966e33dca_z.jpg?zz=1

[jr59]

here we go........ AGAIN!

:fight:
:p

[goonster]

i don't know what steel is real means
We can agree on this. :beer:

[JMerring]

It's a good thing when I'm riding crossed eye because I'm suffering so much, trying to get to the finish line as fast as possible, that the last thing on my mind is if my steel/carbon/ti/aluminum bike "feels" good. If it fits and I pedal hard, it goes fast. Makes riding a bike so much simpler. Gary Player (a South African golfer) used to say "the harder I practice the luckier I get". The more I ride my bike, the better it feels.

i always thought it was hogan who said that. at any rate, this (http://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/07/14/luck/) tends to suggest that it wasn't gary. gary probably would say something like: "the more i work out, the fitter i get." whatever the case, hogan and player are my all time favorites. now i just need to get me a steel bike to see if it is, in fact, real! :)

[Joachim]

gary probably would say something like: "the more i work out, the fitter i get." whatever the case, hogan and player are my all time favorites. now i just need to get me a steel bike to see if it is, in fact, real! :)

Yes, that would be more like Gary. Great link btw. It seems the quote was liked by the golfers. :beer: Carbon vs steel golf clubs anyone?

[Bob Ross]

i don't know what steel is real means


Perhaps it was a call to jihad, albeit misspelled: "Steal Israel!"

[JMerring]

Carbon .... golf clubs anyone?

yuk. i still play with 12 yo hogan blades, a pre-1999 ~200cc driver with metal shaft, and even take out a probably 20 or 30 yo persimmon driver from time to time. persimmon feels really sweet, and sounds even sweeter.

[bobswire]

For those confused by the term "Steel is real" here a few links that might give clarity on the subject.

If steel were a new material, recently engineered to be the ideal replacement material for bicycle frames, it would be the hottest thing to hit the industry. Comfortable, resilient, serviceable, light and delivers a ride like no other. In fact the ride is so wonderful that exotic materials often try to imitate.

source: http://www.belgiumkneewarmers.com/2007/04/steel-is-real.html

http://davesbikeblog.blogspot.com/2006/10/feel-of-steel-makes-it-real.html

http://www.ibiscycles.com/support/technical_articles/metallurgy_for_cyclists/steel_is_real/

http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/nahbs-2010-steel-is-real-25264/

and the final word.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEXj5Ipsqi0

[dd74]

What's the difference between this thread and the thread I started?

Seems like the same attitudes are starting to surface here.

[Pete Serotta]

It is the input from others which is steering it off course and to the garage :)


What's the difference between this thread and the thread I started?

Seems like the same attitudes are starting to surface here.

[William]

Just testing since I seem to be having a problem seeing some posts ....and I just wanted to get a post in this thread before lock-up. :rolleyes:






William

[yodelinpol]

Quote: and the final word.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEXj5Ipsqi0[/QUOTE]



"lugs, double butt head, handbuilt"

"the formula for bicycle steel was discovered by Columbus in 1492. The steel for my bike was forged by elves in Rivendell."


funny stuff

[ergott]

Steel is real?

http://makais.com/product_images/q/837/Mantis_Raptor_Men-62726-1-01__07393_zoom.jpg

Steel doesn't un-suck this bike.

[Pete Serotta]

:confused: :confused: or checkers?


Just testing since I seem to be having a problem seeing some posts ....and I just wanted to get a post in this thread before lock-up. :rolleyes:


William

[William]

:confused: :confused: or checkers?

Actually a game of checkers would be fun Pete!! :D

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-vztSAiDgbXA/TXExphyEIXI/AAAAAAAABG8/6P5dOjW7sQE/squirrel-cafe_1737745i.jpg

Seriously though there are some posts I don't seem to be able to see. I don't know why?



William

[ergott]

Seriously though there are some posts I don't seem to be able to see. I don't know why?



William

If you can't see them, how do you know you can't see them?

[Lifelover]

what does that mean anyway atmo?
the bicycles don't go by themselves.
this focus on material borders on laughable.
a good product is the sum total of all of its components, some even intellectual.
why fetish-ize a pile of stuff?
it's all real.

ps

arrange disorder




i don't know what steel is real means, regardless of whether the phrase is used in genuine conversation or only in jest. i think a bicycle is a complete object and the materials play an equal part along with other details like design, construction, assembly and maintenance of components, and even some of the gaffes that might be part of the maker's execution of it all. you don't need luck trying to pin me down, just ask a question. i can type i don't know with the best of them atmo.

ps

arrange disorder



Having any kind of productive conversation about things this abstract is almost impossible in the format of an internet forum. Things stated out of mild curiosity are going to be perceived as attacking or defensive. It would be best to have them face to face with a bottle of red but if we only did that the internet wouldn't be much fun.


What I have always found interesting about comments like this is it seems to me that you are disparaging the very fetish that drives most of the custom frame market. I suspect "Steel is Real" is the driving force for a large percentage of your business. As a customer, I think I would feel slightly insulted by your position. That does not mean that you need to take a position of steel is the single, superior material. Without steel offering any unique benefits it really does beg the core question in the other thread. IF steel offers not benefits that why is it so common for custom builders?

You have honestly stated that factory bikes are currently manufactured very well, that most people can be fitted on a factory bikes, and material does not matter. With that being the case, why should anyone buy a frame from you?


Honest question for you and any frame builder:

Why should I (or anyone else) purchase a frame from you?


Maybe your wait list can allow you to answer that question with absolute honesty, but I don’t think most frame builders or small bike manufactures are afforded that luxury.


All of this is absolute, 100%, ATMO only.

[Pete Serotta]

Do not know either...what web are you using and what do you see on that posts and what not, give me the link and I will check it. It could be filters on your system or the Union of NE Squirrels boycotting :) Pete

Actually a game of checkers would be fun Pete!! :D

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-vztSAiDgbXA/TXExphyEIXI/AAAAAAAABG8/6P5dOjW7sQE/squirrel-cafe_1737745i.jpg

Seriously though there are some posts I don't seem to be able to see. I don't know why?



William

[JMerring]

snipped



a few datapoints for you (real ones, not abstract ones) to help dispel some of your suspicions:
1. my desire for a custom, lugged steel bike (preferably a sachs, but i'd consider a number of other builders as well) has absolutely nothing to do with steel being real (whatever that means).
2. as a hope-to-one-day-be-customer, i'm not even remotely insulted by richard's position. he makes perfect sense, and in doing so doesn't denigrate any one or thing. why the (your) animus?

honest questions for you and a few others here: why the constant need to grind your blunt axes? if you're so put off by what someone does or the fact that there are others out there 'crazy' enough to wait for them to do it, why not just move on?

[ergott]

Honest question for you and any frame builder:

Why should I (or anyone else) purchase a frame from you?



I think that question is better asked to the people in queue.

I'm in line because Richard has developed a reputation for getting people on bikes that fit great and ride like a dream. Whatever his formula for this is, I'm willing to wait and find out.

I think that David Kirk or Kelly Bedford or Serotta would make me an amazing bike too. When I'm in a better financial position, I'm sure I'll get in a few more lines.

Recently, I've been just riding the crap out of my bikes so I'm in a better position to appreciate the workmanship of such a bike.

[e-RICHIE]

i use steel because back when i was at the front end of all this and found myself wanting to know more about bicycles used in racing, beautiful as they were to me at that time, steel was ubiquitous. regardless that several decades have passed, i have never thought to diversify into other materials because rarely have i thought that anything (but steel) would allow me to make a bicycle that had beauty, that could be melded from pile of parts into a design i considered road-worthy, that challenged me each and every time i'd pick up a new batch to begin another order, and whose inclusion in my bicycles could allow me to creatively leave a mark on an item i'd spend up to a week producing. for me, the material works. and as it goes, the contemporary versions available to me seem a better (quality), lighter, and sexier than what came before it. in other words, i felt that, despite the steel thing, i am able to make modern bicycles using classic materials and processes, find and exist in a market (however small it is), and make a good living. all this, AND i believed nothing was lost simply because i was using a material deemed out of date by some percentage of the masses. in fact, i never cared that the masses had that opinion, i simply forged forward. having typed all this, i'll add that my skills have improved since those first years, my intuition is stronger, and the material you are asking about continues to be a good mix for my business and lifestyle. why do others use it? that's a good question. i have never bit my tongue about some things, and this is one of them - were i to wake up as a 17 year old in this era, or even in the last few, i doubt i'd see bicycles as the objects of beauty that they were to me long ago. when you're surrounded by hand-work and creativity, and throw the sport in the mix, one net result is that the bicycle used for the competition can be a thing of beauty. to me, that characteristic left the building long ago. though most, if not all, bicycles work as in, they do the job they're intended for, it's a rare example that even turns my head. i make the kind of bicycles that turn my head. if yours is turning, then perhaps it will make your radar. it's that simple atmo. here, since you're interested in my thoughts, some subliminal marketing for you in the form of a recent intervista: click here huh. (http://www.richardsachs.com/site/2011/08/01/intervista-a-richard-sachs/)

Having any kind of productive conversation about things this abstract is almost impossible in the format of an internet forum. Things stated out of mild curiosity are going to be perceived as attacking or defensive. It would be best to have them face to face with a bottle of red but if we only did that the internet wouldn't be much fun.


What I have always found interesting about comments like this is it seems to me that you are disparaging the very fetish that drives most of the custom frame market. I suspect "Steel is Real" is the driving force for a large percentage of your business. As a customer, I think I would feel slightly insulted by your position. That does not mean that you need to take a position of steel is the single, superior material. Without steel offering any unique benefits it really does beg the core question in the other thread. IF steel offers not benefits that why is it so common for custom builders?

You have honestly stated that factory bikes are currently manufactured very well, that most people can be fitted on a factory bikes, and material does not matter. With that being the case, why should anyone buy a frame from you?


Honest question for you and any frame builder:

Why should I (or anyone else) purchase a frame from you?


Maybe your wait list can allow you to answer that question with absolute honesty, but I don’t think most frame builders or small bike manufactures are afforded that luxury.


All of this is absolute, 100%, ATMO only.

[christian]

a good product is the sum total of all of its components, some even intellectual.
Gestalt is real? (I prefer my gestalt ferrous, but then, I can't justify a new Gaulzetti or Pinarello KOBH...)

[William]

If you can't see them, how do you know you can't see them?

Because from the main page I can see who the last person was to post, but when I open the thread I don't see that person's post. It's only happening on a couple of threads so I don't get it. I did just dump Firefox and am using Safari for the first time in a long while...but I wouldn't think that would be the issue?




William

[William]

Do not know either...what web are you using and what do you see on that posts and what not, give me the link and I will check it. It could be filters on your system or the Union of NE Squirrels boycotting :) Pete

I suspect Squirrels!!! :crap:




William

[Climb01742]

for me, there are two kinds of bikes: there are 'tools' that serve a function, that deliver a utility, yet don't mean anything more to me than their 'toolness'. and then there are bikes that mean something more to me, that somehow touch my soul, if you will. objectively, there may not always be a huge, measurable difference between the two kinds of bikes. and i don't look down on the tool bikes. but the bikes that touch some deeper meaning inside me give me something that can't be quantified. the world needs both kinds, and i think most of us like having both kinds, too, to be ridden different days, in different conditions, for different reasons. and i'd venture to say that most of us are drawn, in some part, to cycling because it offers the opportunity for craftsmen to raise a tool to something like art and beauty.

[Lifelover]

i use steel.....
...rarely have i thought that anything (but steel) would allow me to make a bicycle that had beauty, that could be melded from pile of parts.....
and sexier than what came before it. in other words,....
i simply forged forward.

Very well written. In a strange twist of irony, I'm sure someday, someone will link this post in response to being ask what "Steel is real" means.

I just find it disingenuous that openly question what "steel is real" means and yet call it "sexy" in the same thread.

For a little fun next year on April 1, send out an mass email to everyone on your wait list declaring that you are switching to Aluminum. I'm sure the responses would be interesting.

[e-RICHIE]

I just find it disingenuous that openly question what "steel is real" means and yet call it "sexy" in the same thread.



i meant sachs-y atmo.

ps

arrange disorder

:cool: :) :)
:cool: :) :)
:cool: :) :D

[1centaur]

Comfortable, resilient, serviceable, light and delivers a ride like no other.

Hmm, only disagree with 3 of those :eek:

[Frankwurst]

I say ride what YOU like. It's all good stuff. :beer:

[Fivethumbs]

There's a homeless guy that lives behind a dumpster near the bike shop I go to. One day he said, "Steel is Real." I'm pretty sure I believed him because he seemed like he knew what he was talking about.

[retrogrouchy]

There's a homeless guy that lives behind a dumpster near the bike shop I go to. One day he said, "Steel is Real." I'm pretty sure I believed him because he seemed like he knew what he was talking about.

Now *that* is a definitive statement on this subject. The defense rests, your honor.

[Kontact]

I think there are many people attracted to steel because of the "craft" implied or explicit in its production. A good builder can make a tremendously beautiful bike with nothing more than the raw materials, hacksaw, files, a ruler and heat source (even an open forge).

Compared to this, even titanium frames smack or gross modernity: Tube cutting fixtures, hydraulic presses, electric welding in inert gases, water jet cutters.

One is left with a sense that a steel builder didn't just cut and assemble to match blueprints, but actually massaged the frame into being; filing, joining, re-checking, bending. It is (potentially) a process more like fancy leather work or blacksmithing, and just as people choose handmade carbon steel over Asian made stainless knives, people choose to buy a steel frame that is crafted rather than assembled.

The final product is not going to be the ultimate anything - but it will be pretty great in any category you'd care to compare, and that's a wonder in itself. And all this was accomplished without Autocad, physics modeling program, an engineering staff, hydroforming or a curing oven. To ride the same course and speed with clean room "aerospace" products is a beautiful thing.

[retrogrouchy]

What's the difference between this thread and the thread I started?

Seems like the same attitudes are starting to surface here.

Agreed. Just wait until the troll weighs in.... :crap:

[retrogrouchy]

I think there are many people attracted to steel because of the "craft" implied or explicit in its production. A good builder can make a tremendously beautiful bike with nothing more than the raw materials, hacksaw, files, a ruler and heat source (even an open forge).

Compared to this, even titanium frames smack or gross modernity: Tube cutting fixtures, hydraulic presses, electric welding in inert gases, water jet cutters.

One is left with a sense that a steel builder didn't just cut and assemble to match blueprints, but actually massaged the frame into being; filing, joining, re-checking, bending. It is (potentially) a process more like fancy leather work or blacksmithing, and just as people choose handmade carbon steel over Asian made stainless knives, people choose to buy a steel frame that is crafted rather than assembled.

The final product is not going to be the ultimate anything - but it will be pretty great in any category you'd care to compare, and that's a wonder in itself. And all this was accomplished without Autocad, physics modeling program, an engineering staff, hydroforming or a curing oven. To ride the same course and speed with clean room "aerospace" products is a beautiful thing.

Yes! Well-said. Merci beaucoup.

[BumbleBeeDave]

It seems like this thread and the previous one have a lot more to do with egos than they do with frame materials.

I went for a ride tonight . . . 38 miles. It was on my carbon bike and I had a good time. It was a good ride. But I also know that if I rode my Ti bike or my aluminum bike, or my steel bike (if I had one--it's next on the "buy" list) that it ALSO would have been a great ride. And that has nothing to do with the frame material.

It's because riding my bike is FUN. It was a beautiful evening and the sun was shining and a gentle breeze was blowing. There wasn't much traffic and I saw several other cyclists and I waved and they waved back. The flowers are blooming and all the trees are green and I thought back to this past winter when I was looking forward so much to this time of year. And now it's here and I'm so happy to just be riding my bike and feeling the blood pumping in my veins and the breeze in my face. None of THOSE things have anything to do with frame materials, either.

Why are you guys arguing about this? Go for a ride and you guys will stop being like this . . . :mad: :( . . . and start being a lot more like this . . . :beer: :)

BBD

[AngryScientist]

I went for a ride tonight . . . 38 miles. It was on my carbon bike and I had a good time. It was a good ride. But I also know that if I rode my Ti bike or my aluminum bike, or my steel bike (if I had one--it's next on the "buy" list) that it ALSO would have been a great ride. And that has nothing to do with the frame material.



i agree with the bumble bee, especially in real world situations. whenever i ride with other people who love bikes and riding, no one EVER comments on frame material. ever. typical group rides have steel, alu and carbon, we all ride together. we all have fun. no one ever cares what the guy, the friend next to him is riding. :beer:

[firerescuefin]

I think there are many people attracted to steel because of the "craft" implied or explicit in its production. A good builder can make a tremendously beautiful bike with nothing more than the raw materials, hacksaw, files, a ruler and heat source (even an open forge).........
Snip

......The final product is not going to be the ultimate anything - but it will be pretty great in any category you'd care to compare, and that's a wonder in itself. And all this was accomplished without Autocad, physics modeling program, an engineering staff, hydroforming or a curing oven. To ride the same course and speed with clean room "aerospace" products is a beautiful thing.

This....don't own one yet, but viewing the ornate lugs and craft of any one of the guys that chime in here as well as the guys featured in the "Smoke Out" threads at VS have created a real lust to ride and race one of these beautys. There was a great thread on how important is craftsmanship to "you" and as I have grown older I appreciate it more and more....it's not hard to think bikes like these are built with soul of their own.

[AngryScientist]

snip

i just wanted to chime in and say that the quote yu have in your sig is awesome. so true. that is all.

[don compton]

I'll be the troll. I love my steel bikes. My dream bike would be a Parlee (obviously carbon) with Rivendell geometry. Now, that's honesty.
Don C.

[retrogrouchy]

I'll be the troll. I love my steel bikes. My dream bike would be a Parlee (obviously carbon) with Rivendell geometry. Now, that's honesty.
Don C.

...and that's absolutely fine. Not a thing wrong with that.

...and I wouldn't even call y'all a troll, neither!

...and I wish were 'up in Lodi." :banana:

[BumbleBeeDave]

I don't understand the joke. :confused:

Maybe you could PM me and explain?

BBD

i have lost all self-control atmo.
here dave -
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=25544&postcount=2

hey that was levity.

ps

arrange disorder

:cool: :cool: :cool:
:cool: :cool: :cool:
:cool: :cool: :)

[SamIAm]

Considering the average age of the forum members, can we at least agree that "Wood is Good"!?


Does that mean Grand Bois is Great? :)

Never really understood that name for bike gear.

[Pete Serotta]

and quite often I can not pronounce it either,, :crap:

Have a good weekend. PETE

Does that mean Grand Bois is Great? :)

Never really understood that name for bike gear.

[Pete Serotta]

It seems like this thread and the previous one have a lot more to do with egos than they do with frame materials.

I went for a ride tonight . . . 38 miles. It was on my carbon bike and I had a good time. It was a good ride. But I also know that if I rode my Ti bike or my aluminum bike, or my steel bike (if I had one--it's next on the "buy" list) that it ALSO would have been a great ride. And that has nothing to do with the frame material.

It's because riding my bike is FUN. It was a beautiful evening and the sun was shining and a gentle breeze was blowing. There wasn't much traffic and I saw several other cyclists and I waved and they waved back. The flowers are blooming and all the trees are green and I thought back to this past winter when I was looking forward so much to this time of year. And now it's here and I'm so happy to just be riding my bike and feeling the blood pumping in my veins and the breeze in my face. None of THOSE things have anything to do with frame materials, either.

Why are you guys arguing about this? Go for a ride and you guys will stop being like this . . . :mad: :( . . . and start being a lot more like this . . . :beer: :)

BBD


Wish our past evening was more like yours.....and I was hanging onto your draft and then having dinner with you. PETE

PETE

[rugbysecondrow]

You are correct, the thread was never, and still isn't, about materials. It has always been about egos not checked at the door when maybe they ought to have.

What's new though, you get a bunch of guys together, especially type A guys, ego is always present. Not an absolute bad or good thing, just a thing.

Glad you had a nice ride, though I couldn't help but notice you had a GOOD ride on carbon, but you mention it would have been a GREAT ride on metal bikes....hmmmm, is that slip a hidden bias? ;)

It seems like this thread and the previous one have a lot more to do with egos than they do with frame materials.

I went for a ride tonight . . . 38 miles. It was on my carbon bike and I had a good time. It was a good ride. But I also know that if I rode my Ti bike or my aluminum bike, or my steel bike (if I had one--it's next on the "buy" list) that it ALSO would have been a great ride. And that has nothing to do with the frame material.

It's because riding my bike is FUN. It was a beautiful evening and the sun was shining and a gentle breeze was blowing. There wasn't much traffic and I saw several other cyclists and I waved and they waved back. The flowers are blooming and all the trees are green and I thought back to this past winter when I was looking forward so much to this time of year. And now it's here and I'm so happy to just be riding my bike and feeling the blood pumping in my veins and the breeze in my face. None of THOSE things have anything to do with frame materials, either.

Why are you guys arguing about this? Go for a ride and you guys will stop being like this . . . :mad: :( . . . and start being a lot more like this . . . :beer: :)

BBD

[Bruce K]

Deceased equine bludgeoning alert !!!! :crap: :rolleyes:

Tomorrow I will ride my third Copper Triangle.

2008 on my Ottrott ST
2009 on my Bedford
This year on my Meivici

It is about the ride and the company, not the bike.

BK

[Kontact]

Honestly, I'm missing something with all the discussion of egos. I'm reading all the same stuff you guys are, but I don't have a clue how a discussion about frame fabrication methods, material preferences and market trends involves "ego".

Is BBD calling out E-Ritchie? Or is he and other people calling out anyone who has the nerve to disagree with the builders (some of whom have been doing just that?)


I get the feeling that none of you are talking about the same thing, and making the same references to "offenses" that are mainly in your heads. There was nothing implicitly wrong with the topic of the other thread, either, yet so many people (not the frame builders) got so upset that it was even happening. I was even warned not to be rude to Dave Kirk, even though he was enjoying the conversation!

I wish someone would spell out what's going on before another person gets banned.

[oldpotatoe]

There's a homeless guy that lives behind a dumpster near the bike shop I go to. One day he said, "Steel is Real." I'm pretty sure I believed him because he seemed like he knew what he was talking about.

He was talking about the dumpster.

[William]

Deceased equine bludgeoning alert !!!! :crap: :rolleyes:



BK

http://www.gifsoup.com/view7/2485276/dead-horse-o.gif



;) :)

William

[BumbleBeeDave]

I'm calling out EVERYBODY equally! EXCEPT those who I personally know for sure to have extensive framebuilding expertise. That includes at least Dave Kirk and Richie . . . I cetainly don't expect them to sit there like lumps on a log while this thread seems to diss steel. It's what they work in every day. It's their artistic clay and they are acknowledged experts in its properties, possiblities, and financial and technical capabilities.

For my part, I would NEVER presume to disagree with either of these guys on relative merits of frame materials on a technical basis. Either one of them has already forgotten more than I will EVER know about framebuilding materials and properties and technical details of construction. I'd accept them as know-it-alls on this subject because I can be reasonably certain they DO know it all!

My ride last night on my carbon frame was GREAT. My ride this weekend on whatever frame I use will be GREAT . . . go ride your bikes, people! :no:

BBD

Honestly, I'm missing something with all the discussion of egos. I'm reading all the same stuff you guys are, but I don't have a clue how a discussion about frame fabrication methods, material preferences and market trends involves "ego".

Is BBD calling out E-Ritchie? Or is he and other people calling out anyone who has the nerve to disagree with the builders (some of whom have been doing just that?)


I get the feeling that none of you are talking about the same thing, and making the same references to "offenses" that are mainly in your heads. There was nothing implicitly wrong with the topic of the other thread, either, yet so many people (not the frame builders) got so upset that it was even happening. I was even warned not to be rude to Dave Kirk, even though he was enjoying the conversation!

I wish someone would spell out what's going on before another person gets banned.

[rugbysecondrow]

I'm calling out EVERYBODY equally! EXCEPT those who I personally know for sure to have extensive framebuilding expertise. That includes at least Dave Kirk and Richie . . . I cetainly don't expect them to sit there like lumps on a log while this thread seems to diss steel. It's what they work in every day. It's their artistic clay and they are acknowledged experts in its properties, possiblities, and financial and technical capabilities.

For my part, I would NEVER presume to disagree with either of these guys on relative merits of frame materials on a technical basis. Either one of them has already forgotten more than I will EVER know about framebuilding materials and properties and technical details of construction. I'd accept them as know-it-alls on this subject because I can be reasonably certain they DO know it all!

My ride last night on my carbon frame was GREAT. My ride this weekend on whatever frame I use will be GREAT . . . go ride your bikes, people! :no:

BBD

I don't think that is what occured.

[Bob Ross]

I went for a ride tonight . . . 38 miles. It was on my carbon bike ... and I saw several other cyclists and I waved and they waved back.

You do know that if you'd been on a steel bike they wouldn't have waved back, right?

:)

[duke]

How come when I am dressed up like one of the cool guys on one of my cool bikes (not going to mention the frame material) most of you guys wave to me and when I'm on my beach cruiser in my flip flops none of the cool guys will wave. Are beach cruisers not cool? Even steel ones? (This is at the beach).
duke

[Kontact]

I don't know who "dissed steel", aside from E-Ritchie's comments about it being relegated to a niche material.

The majority of the dissing seemed to be about whether the topic (someone being too light to find an appropriate steel frame) had merit or not. It seemed like a lot of energy was devoted to various people telling other people what is worthwhile conversation. Which is funny, because it seems that the people who do build bikes thought it was a worthwhile conversation.

It appears that a lot of effort is being made protecting the builders from conversations they are okay having, and a lot of strong language is being aimed at people who like to talk about stuff more interesting than: :beer:


I don't know why this topic had to be even remotely negative for anyone. It was not pro/anti steel, it was not an attack on David, Ritchey or Doug's character. It was only really about supplying appropriate bikes for people on one far end of the bell curve.

WEIRD.

[William]

How come when I am dressed up like one of the cool guys on one of my cool bikes (not going to mention the frame material) most of you guys wave to me and when I'm on my beach cruiser in my flip flops none of the cool guys will wave. Are beach cruisers not cool? Even steel ones? (This is at the beach).
duke


I wave to everyone on bikes...steel ones, carbon ones, aluminum ones, Tri guys & gals, beach cruisers, toddlers, and homeless folk. But, if you don't wave back I'm gonna knock you out!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vimZj8HW0Kg&ob=av2e) :D



William

[jr59]

I wave to everyone on bikes...steel ones, carbon ones, aluminum ones, Tri guys & gals, beach cruisers, toddlers, and homeless folk. But, if you don't wave back I'm gonna knock you out!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vimZj8HW0Kg&ob=av2e) :D



William

The cycling Mr T... :p

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . then, or whatever you want, but I totally agree with your last graph. I also don't see why this topic had to be negative for anyone. But that's what seems to happen with a lot of the negative threads on here lately. I read them and end up asking myself "WHY?" :confused:

BBD

I don't know who "dissed steel", aside from E-Ritchie's comments about it being relegated to a niche material.

The majority of the dissing seemed to be about whether the topic (someone being too light to find an appropriate steel frame) had merit or not. It seemed like a lot of energy was devoted to various people telling other people what is worthwhile conversation. Which is funny, because it seems that the people who do build bikes thought it was a worthwhile conversation.

It appears that a lot of effort is being made protecting the builders from conversations they are okay having, and a lot of strong language is being aimed at people who like to talk about stuff more interesting than: :beer:


I don't know why this topic had to be even remotely negative for anyone. It was not pro/anti steel, it was not an attack on David, Ritchey or Doug's character. It was only really about supplying appropriate bikes for people on one far end of the bell curve.

WEIRD.

[William]

The cycling Mr T... :p

I PITY DA FOO WHO DON'T WAVE TO ME!!!!!! :D





William

[fiamme red]

I PITY DA FOO WHO DON'T WAVE TO ME!!!!!! :D





WilliamHello Mr. William. :)

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1348/979897028_500222fc82_z.jpg

[palincss]

Does that mean Grand Bois is Great? :)

Never really understood that name for bike gear.

I believe that like many bike things, the name is that of a mountain or a place in the mountains in France. More importantly, it's the name of a Japanese bicycle company, Cycles Grand Bois http://www.cyclesgrandbois.com/ "presented by I's Bicycle" and "I"
wanted classical components for the very classical bicycles his company builds. Finding them lacking in the marketplace, he started having them manufactured.

[retrogrouchy]

Does that mean Grand Bois is Great? :)

Never really understood that name for bike gear.

Japanese names that are in English are often way more odd than that. They just pick something that 'has a nice ring to it' to a Japanese-speaker's ear.

Two energy drinks that I used to purchase there were Pocari Sweat, and Calpis. I always wondered how you would harvest sweat from a Pocari, and don't even think about the other one....

[retrogrouchy]

I don't know who "dissed steel", aside from E-Ritchie's comments about it being relegated to a niche material.

The majority of the dissing seemed to be about whether the topic (someone being too light to find an appropriate steel frame) had merit or not. It seemed like a lot of energy was devoted to various people telling other people what is worthwhile conversation. Which is funny, because it seems that the people who do build bikes thought it was a worthwhile conversation.

It appears that a lot of effort is being made protecting the builders from conversations they are okay having, and a lot of strong language is being aimed at people who like to talk about stuff more interesting than: :beer:


I don't know why this topic had to be even remotely negative for anyone. It was not pro/anti steel, it was not an attack on David, Ritchey or Doug's character. It was only really about supplying appropriate bikes for people on one far end of the bell curve.

WEIRD.

+1.

[Bob Ross]

Two energy drinks that I used to purchase there were Pocari Sweat, and Calpis. I always wondered how you would harvest sweat from a Pocari, and don't even think about the other one....

I've spent many a drunk night in a sushi bar laughing about the unfortunate homophonics of "calpis".

[William]

Hello Mr. William. :)

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1348/979897028_500222fc82_z.jpg


Quit yo Jibber-jabber! You ain't friendly, yo pathetic!, Argh! If I ever catch you acting like a crazy fool again, you're gonna meet my friend pain! Squirrel, get some nuts cuz I'm gonna knock yours out!!!





William :D

[rugbysecondrow]

I've spent many a drunk night in a sushi bar laughing about the unfortunate homophonics of "calpis".


I feel like that is how my night is progressing. Thank god for spell check.


Cheers fellas.

[Smiley]

Man, I am glad I checked back into this Thread, "Steel is Real" was a slogan, poster that Serotta had many moons ago when they only built steel bikes.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . "Smiley is Styley!" :D

BBD

[Lifelover]

Man, I am glad I checked back into this Thread, "Steel is Real" was a slogan, poster that Serotta had many moons ago when they only built steel bikes.


Interesting, I wonder if you are the only one in this thread that knew that?

[rugbysecondrow]

Man, I am glad I checked back into this Thread, "Steel is Real" was a slogan, poster that Serotta had many moons ago when they only built steel bikes.

You didn't miss much smiley.