View Full Version : Importance of aerodynamics
LegendRider
07-03-2005, 12:08 PM
Zabriskie's result in the first stage highlights the importance of aerodynamics, especially at 34mph. He's a big talent, but as of July 2, 2005, his engine is not bigger than Lance's. Nevertheless, he won. Despite all of the technology at Armstrong's disposal, his body position isn't great, and it creates a lot of drag.
It reminds me of the Indurain era - they got him in a wind tunnel and when they improved his position, his power number plummeted. Remember the low profile Pinarello TT bikes with five inched of spacers???
saab2000
07-03-2005, 12:11 PM
The thing is a great compromise between aero and power, as you point out. Maybe LA could have a better aero position, but then his power would suffer.
Aero is important, to be sure, but it is just part of the equation.
LegendRider
07-03-2005, 12:13 PM
The thing is a great compromise between aero and power, as you point out. Maybe LA could have a better aero position, but then his power would suffer.
Aero is important, to be sure, but it is just part of the equation.
Agreed. It makes Lance's TT wins all the more impressive. He beats guys who are much more aero (Ullrich, Olano (in days past), Julich, etc.).
armstrong is plenty aero enough.
jerk
LegendRider
07-03-2005, 02:30 PM
armstrong is plenty aero enough.
jerk
I suppose so since he wins time trials. But, how do his drag numbers compare to others?
Also, if Armstong is "aero enough," why did Zabriskie win? I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm genuinely curious as to your insights.
dave thompson
07-03-2005, 03:06 PM
<snip>
Also, if Armstong is "aero enough," why did Zabriskie win? I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm genuinely curious as to your insights.
I believe that the tailwind was stronger when Zabriskie was on the course. It diminished somewhat by the time Lance went off.
Kevan
07-03-2005, 03:07 PM
of Zabriskie pounding away while seemingly balanced on the very nose of his saddle. All I could think was YEOW!!!
bcm119
07-03-2005, 03:41 PM
I believe that the tailwind was stronger when Zabriskie was on the course. It diminished somewhat by the time Lance went off.
Yup. The earlier guys had a significant advantage.
LegendRider
07-03-2005, 03:44 PM
According to Cyclingnews.com:
Although the wind had picked up slightly as the afternoon continued since Zabriskie started, the velocity of 10-15 km/h from the southwest was relatively stable all day.
It's hard to say if that implies a significant advantage or not.
shaq-d
07-03-2005, 04:29 PM
i don't buy into the point that there's a big difference in aero between zabriskie and armstrong. or zab and ullrich. the difference was, and almost always is, (with few exceptions like lemond's TT win), the engine.
sd
erty65
07-03-2005, 04:59 PM
i don't buy into the point that there's a big difference in aero between zabriskie and armstrong. or zab and ullrich. the difference was, and almost always is, (with few exceptions like lemond's TT win), the engine.
sd
take a look.
zabriskie won because armstrong didn't need to win.
jerk
also note that jan is neither on his go fast wheels nor his go fast bike. something tells the jerk he was a little more hurt than he was letting on.
Bill Bove
07-04-2005, 04:37 PM
Jerk is right, Force CSC to work more than they wanted to in the first week. By the time T-Mobile figures out who their team leader is LA will be down the road. Way down the road.
Notice the brakes on Ulrich's bike, both front brake placement and the rear V-brake.
dave thompson
07-04-2005, 04:44 PM
.......Notice the brakes on Ulrich's bike, both front brake placement and the rear V-brake.
Lance isn't using the old Dura Ace AX aero brakeset that he used to use.
don't forget that Lance popped out of a pedal coming out of the gate that probably cost him a second or two....
Chief
07-04-2005, 04:57 PM
I think it is interesting to compare the pedal position of Zabriski and Armstrong and their muscle definition. Tell me who is the stronger rider.
weisan
07-04-2005, 05:18 PM
Tell me who is the stronger rider.
Ullrich is.
Climb01742
07-04-2005, 05:25 PM
on today's broadcast, paul sherwin commented that johan said that dave z. had the best body position on a TT bike in the peleton. he's won TTs in all 3 grand tours. his engine probably isn't as big as some others, but it seems his aero position helps compensate. also, it was a super flat, straight course, allowing him to be in his tuck more often. on other TT courses with more climbing or trickier corners the skills and strengths of other riders may count for more. finally, it should be interesting to see how dave z. does in the next to last stage TT. 3 weeks is a long way from now.
toaster
07-04-2005, 07:58 PM
Dave Z. looks smaller, and has less frontal area, also his head seems to fill the space in front of his chest better. Notice too, that he is lower overall. I'll bet this difference makes Dave Z. more aero but not quite as powerful as Lance.
Dr. Doofus
07-04-2005, 08:07 PM
dizzyz probably working with 30-50 fewer watts than thatguywhoscrewscrow
beautiful TT position (and it was a road stage in the vuelta, climb0)
lance not aero enough? gee, guess 9 TT wins in the tour isn't enough to make thatguywhoscrewscrow the greatest TT ride rof his generation...please....
dizzyz the new boardman...hasn't shown he can do much in the mountains...he'll have to develop that...if he doesn't, the TT is probably good enough to pick him up 2-3 single-week races in the next few years....
Climb01742
07-05-2005, 03:45 AM
(and it was a road stage in the vuelta, climb0)
you're quite right. my bad. thanks for the catch.
53-11
07-05-2005, 05:18 AM
take a look.
Am I the only one seeing this, but is Zabriskie's hip angle not more open and his back not more flat than the lance's? (notice crank position at the same 6'oock and 12 o'clock position for both)
Open hip angle and flat back should equal more power and less air resistance.
LegendRider
07-05-2005, 06:29 AM
Am I the only one seeing this, but is Zabriskie's hip angle not more open and his back not more flat than the lance's? (notice crank position at the same 6'oock and 12 o'clock position for both)
Open hip angle and flat back should equal more power and less air resistance.
I agree. It's clear by the pictures that Zabriskie's position is superior. As you noted, flatter back and more open angle between thigh and abdomen. Now, I never meant to imply that Lance didn't do just fine with his position, but seems obvious he can't generate the same huge power numbers in a better position (or he would). Just like Indurain.
colocraig
07-05-2005, 11:23 PM
Comparing the photos of Armstrong's and Zabriskie's positioning on the bike:
Much of it is no doubt due to their individual flexibility, etc. I'm sure that Lance is optimized on his Trek frame from all the wind tunnel time he has had.
But look at the seat tube angles on the two bikes. The Trek is in the 70s somewhere (i.e. conventional). Zabriskie's bike must be close to 80 degrees. This rotates his hips and entire body forward resulting in a flatter back and less drag.
I think this is because Trek plans to sell the bike to the general public and doesn't want anything too unconventional in terms of position or fit. Fortunately, Lance has the skill and experience to overcome a "less than perfect" bike geometry.
mdeeds71
07-06-2005, 12:12 AM
Does anyone find it odd that Lance came out of his pedals not only at the start of the time trial but also in the Liberie D just over a month ago???
surfbikeswim
07-06-2005, 05:58 PM
Does anyone find it odd that Lance came out of his pedals not only at the start of the time trial but also in the Liberie D just over a month ago???
I do - seems like 2 times too many to me.
Ian
erty65
07-06-2005, 09:34 PM
Does anyone find it odd that Lance came out of his pedals not only at the start of the time trial but also in the Liberie D just over a month ago???
He uses these cleats! (http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2005/tour05/tech/?id=round-up2/cntdf05-lance_shoe2)
From RoadBikeRider.com Newsletter:
Too Much Power!
That's the reason Lance Armstrong's right foot unclipped just a dozen pedal strokes into the Tour, possibly causing his 2-second loss to Dave Zabriskie. For Lance, it was the second such incident in a TT start this season.
How could it happen to a guy known as "Mr. Millimeter" for his meticulous attention to detail? Discovery Channel team mechanic Alan Buttler told www.velonews.com that Lance uses non-floating cleats so his feet are attached rigidly to the Shimano pedals. Without any free pivot, and with his bike and body twisting under the forceful big-gear acceleration, his feet are popping loose despite a tight release setting
Comparing the photos of Armstrong's and Zabriskie's positioning on the bike:
Much of it is no doubt due to their individual flexibility, etc. I'm sure that Lance is optimized on his Trek frame from all the wind tunnel time he has had.
But look at the seat tube angles on the two bikes. The Trek is in the 70s somewhere (i.e. conventional). Zabriskie's bike must be close to 80 degrees. This rotates his hips and entire body forward resulting in a flatter back and less drag.
I think this is because Trek plans to sell the bike to the general public and doesn't want anything too unconventional in terms of position or fit. Fortunately, Lance has the skill and experience to overcome a "less than perfect" bike geometry.
wrong, a steep seat tube angle would be far more "saleable" as the majority of morons who buy tt bikes are triathletes and they're into really steep bikes for a lot of (good) reasons which needn't be hashed out here. the trek tt bike is designed and optimized around the athlete who rides it most successfully, lance armstrong. if he was faster on anything else, believe you the jerk; he would be on it.
jerk
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