Stage 18 Spoiler

[tele]

Good Golly!!!!! when do the fireworks start?

Why does AC ride so far back in the group sometimes? Confidence or working his way into the climb?

[JMerring]

the descent from the summit of the izoard to the base of the galibier is too long for there to be an attack on the izoard. you won't see fireworks until they're on the galibier. then you'll see fireworks as if july 4 and july 14 occurred on the same day.

[William]

Oh my....AS left Frank....





W.

[tele]

Oh my....AS left Frank....
I didnt think AS had it in him to fly the coop like that....pretty impressive

[William]

I didnt think AS had it in him to fly the coop like that....pretty impressive

Either he feels he needs the lead for the decent to the bottom of the final climb, or eRichie just pissed him off. ;)




William

[tele]

Either he feels he needs the lead for the decent to the bottom of the final climb, or eRichie just pissed him off. ;)




William
i would like to think eRichie lit a fire under his arse cause this is made the race very very exciting before the finale.

[AngryScientist]

wow, this is getting serious, 1:40 gap for Schleck-o

[William]

i would like to think eRichie lit a fire under his arse cause this is made the race very very exciting before the finale.

"e" is good with a pack of matches!! :D

Very exciting for sure. Who will take up the chase...no one so far.



W.

[AngryScientist]

i wonder if contador can hear the toilet flushing out there on the road?

[William]

OMG!!! :eek:

AS is not a good decender!! That was close!



W.

[tele]

AS better watch the corners on the way down, he hasnt been very comfortable going down.
At least Trek's tactics look like they have worked out great so far....

[Wilkinson4]

Wow... I don't understand why they let him go with two team members up the road. If they keep it at 2 min I guess but anything can happen. Anyway, maybe AS has a set? Should be interesting on last climb.

mIKE

[William]

White jersey down!!



W.

[tele]

does Contador put the petal to the metal on the last climb or is he cooked? he has to be panicking with AS more than 2 minutes ahead.

[AngryScientist]

http://cdnmo.coveritlive.com/media/image/201107/phpEw29Ep_thumb_PROFILKMS18.gif

its coming!

[William]

So, who is going to take up the chase??

TV will let someone else do it...but who has the _ _ _ _ _ _ to do it?





W.

[William]

Contador & Sanchez hatching a plan......





W.

[AngryScientist]

contador changes bikes. the climbing bike is out. this could be an interesting final climb...

[MattTuck]

Contador & Sanchez hatching a plan......





W.

Probably making a bet. Loser has to eat home grown beef.

[MattTuck]

As an observation, I haven't seen Andy eating much. Could come back to bite him.

Also, in the main group, there are a LOT of orange jerseys.

[1happygirl]

My man Cadel's GPS froze & I guess he got lost! :eek:
Did he find the mountain?

[William]

How come Contador wears a different color jersey then the rest of his team in Orange??? :confused:





William ;)

[tele]

looks like the basque boyz are now Contador's team. what deal was struck?

[noflysonme]

Contador changed to his climbing bike. Does that mean he is getting tired?

[William]

TV looks like he's dry heaving. I think he's on the edge.....




W.

[yodelinpol]

Can't see at work this minute... where is AS and where are TV, CE and AC?

[tele]

Can't see at work this minute... where is AS and where are TV, CE and AC?
AS has more than 3.30 minutes ahead of the rest of the favorites at the bottom of the Galibier.

[William]

Can't see at work this minute... where is AS and where are TV, CE and AC?


AS 3:47 in a group of 5, ahead and widening the gap.



W.

[keevon]

Andy has 3:30 over Contador???

Seems fishy...
http://www.albertocontadornotebook.info/i/vanVlietCURACAO09.jpg
(Sorry, couldn't resist. Go Andy!)

[oldguy00]

Can't see at work this minute... where is AS and where are TV, CE and AC?

Schlecks breakaway group has about 3:30 on the yellow jersey. They'd better pick it up!
As for Contador's 'orange team', I think he gifted them some results in the Giro. Time for payback.

[William]

Schlecks breakaway group has about 3:30 on the yellow jersey. They'd better pick it up!
As for Contador's 'orange team', I think he gifted them some results in the Giro. Time for payback.

I'm watching Eurosport and the clock is saying 3:47 right now.



W.

[oldguy00]

3:50 now! What the heck is BMC, etc thinking?

[yodelinpol]

How long is the climb? Estimated finish time from now?

Damned work filters... :no:

I wish I could take my lunch now and hit the sports bar...

[William]

AS last team mate just blew up!!



W.

[William]

How long is the climb? Estimated finish time from now?

Damned work filters... :no:

I wish I could take my lunch now and hit the sports bar...


About 16K left.

Gap down to 3:43.



W.

[tele]

looks llike a pretty mean headwind right now

[thegunner]

3:50 now! What the heck is BMC, etc thinking?

classic cadel. only following wheels :rolleyes:

well you reap what you sow.

[fiamme red]

How long is the climb? Estimated finish time from now?The climb is 23 km long. Still 16 to go.

[noflysonme]

My spanish isn't very good but it sounds as if AC told Sanchez the name of

his beef supplier.

[oldguy00]

I guess the simple fact is that the worker bees can't pull back time on Andy, so they can just limit the loss until Cadel, AC, etc. decide its time to head out in pursuit..

[William]

Here we go...AC moving....



W.

[tele]

Here we go...AC moving....



W.
cuddles is helping AC but the gap is almost 4 minutes, and then Contador disappears from the front!!!

[noflysonme]

Cadel and AC at the front now!!

[MattTuck]

Man, look at the flags. big time head wind.

[oldguy00]

The yellow jersey group is still really big....kind of telling that the pace hasn't picked up yet, but perhaps Cadel and AC just don't have it today...

[1happygirl]

Contador really is clean this year! He just cracked. Cadel ahead.

[William]

Or tried to get cadel to pull and left him on the front...went back to rest.



W.

[noflysonme]

Haha, nobody in the main peloton wants to pull!!!

[William]

4:16 advantage....10k to go and no one wants to chase yet...



W.

[chromopromo]

I am back on the Andy bandwagon. What is everyone waiting for?

[oldguy00]

4:24 lead on the yellow group now.
Crap! :crap:

[AngryScientist]

and you can hear the crowd "its all ovvvver"

[William]

Cadel goes.....



W.

[oldguy00]

Ahh, Cadel said f*ck this, has them strung out now!

[William]

AC is saying "Go Cadel Go!!!" :D



W.

[1happygirl]

Tommy V. hanging in with Cadel.

[oldguy00]

And TV has no trouble hanging on. That guy has been bluffing big time about his abilities. I'd say he and Cadel are the favorites, as I still don't think Andy will win, and AC is probably too far out now.

[tele]

all of these guys looked pretty cooked to me, this is an epic stage

[William]

Cadel is doing a lot of work......dug in 30 seconds on the lead



W.

[noflysonme]

Cadel has pulled back 30 secs but I think Andy is on the steep section.

[yodelinpol]

How much left?

Where are CE and AC?

[thegunner]

the commentary on versus is idiotic. they keep saying that CE's chase is taking effect because the gap is dropping. of course it's dropping... the race leader is on a steeper section of the climb :crap:

it's a simple concept that phil doesn't seem to grasp.

[1happygirl]

Haven't seen AS eat or drink.

[oldguy00]

Still 7-8km? Not sure. Yellow jersey group still together, Cadel leading, and brought the gap back to 3:30.

[William]

Haven't seen AS eat or drink.


He's been nibbling.

6k to go...

W.

[oldguy00]

the commentary on versus is idiotic. they keep saying that CE's chase is taking effect because the gap is dropping. of course it's dropping... the race leader is on a steeper section of the climb :crap:

it's a simple concept that phil doesn't seem to grasp.

I think you're wrong there. They aren't measuring distance behind, they are measuring time. Phil is correct.

[tele]

How much left?

Where are CE and AC?
CE is pulling time back on AS, down to 3.26 behind

[noflysonme]

Uh-oh, AS is grimacing.

[oldman]

6k to go, AS has 3:24 lead.

[tele]

Cadel is showing some nice stones right now

and Tommy V is hangin nicely

[William]

Sanchez off the back....



W.

[Louis]

I think you're wrong there. They aren't measuring distance behind, they are measuring time. Phil is correct.

+1

Time gap is not affected by grade (unless we're talking climber vs sprinter) in which case the change is a real difference.

[phcollard]

I believe he's got it. He'll arrive 3 minutes before the yellow jersey group.

And those people running uphill right next to AS are so stupid!

[thegunner]

I think you're wrong there. They aren't measuring distance behind, they are measuring time. Phil is correct.

oh crap, you're right. mah b.

[oldguy00]

I believe he's got it. He'll arrive 3 minutes before the yellow jersey group.

And those people running uphill right next to AS are so stupid!

With 4.5km still to go, I'm thinking they will pull it back to two minutes. We'll know soon... :)

[oldman]

Epic stuff, can't wait to watch this one tonight.

[phcollard]

Cadel looks like he's really pushing himself quite hard!

[oldguy00]

Cadels group is shrinking. Tom D dumped, as well as the polka dot jersey.

Down to 3:10 with 4km left. TV hanging in no prob. Can he time trial??

[tele]

3k to go, just over 3 minute lead

[phcollard]

TV hanging in no prob.

Yeah, amazing!

[oldguy00]

AC popped!!!

[tele]

Contador has been gapped!!!!!!

[William]

AC being dropped!!!


W.

[oldguy00]

Dropped? No. Dumped!!!

[leooooo]

Andy shuts up n rides his heart out! Winning me back (hope he keeps his mouth shut at end of stage too).

Cadel with monster effort as well.

[ahumblecycler]

Mmm, I wonder if the Giro took too much out of AC or if he got some "advice" not to win this year (assuming he could but I honestly have not seen the effort to really win) ... just thoughts rattling in my skull.

[oldman]

Andy shuts up n rides his heart out! Winning me back (hope he keeps his mouth shut at end of stage too).

Cadel with monster effort as well.

+100

[phcollard]

TDF over for AC

[tele]

how impressive is Roland working from Tommy V

[DRZRM]

Wow!!!

[oldguy00]

Looks like TV keeps yellow by about 15 seconds? Cadel saved it for him big time.
Ouch, AC lost about 1:40 on the Cadel group...bye bye

[tele]

Looks like TV keeps yellow by about 15 seconds? Cadel saved it for him big time.
Ouch, AC lost about 1:40 on the Cadel group...bye bye
Bravo TV, Bravo

[572cv]

memorable. What an incredible effort. AC deserves great kudos, but Voelkler was heroic. May he hold on and win in Paris, perhaps by the closest margin ever.

[rice rocket]

That won't happen, TV is the anti-time trialist.

[phcollard]

Voeckler love!

What a climb he did!

Amazing he's keeping the yellow!

[William]

Yea, he owes Cadel big time. Glad to see he kept it.





W.

[William]

Btw, the Simpsons in German is just wrong. My TDF feed just jumped to Homer.... :crap:




W.

[thwart]

D'ya think someone noting the 95 + posts on this thread would conclude it's worth watching this stage tonight... ? :D

[JMerring]

boy was i wrong. luxembourg beef futures are soaring tonight. here's hoping for an australian or, especially, a french, miracle. abs.

paul: "in my life i've never seen an attack like that." really? what about floyd?

[Wilkinson4]

Can't wait to see it. Was reading the txt updates while pretending to work! it sounds like Andy and Cadel laid it on the line today. What will tomorrow bring?

mIKE

[Elefantino]

Love the way Harmon was rooting for Voeckler. To hell with objectivity.

[bicycletricycle]

they have really left this thing till the end this year. The whole tour de france decided in three days.

[Fixed]

they watched american flyers
cheers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_cmolFXIaQ&feature=related
__________________

[oldguy00]

I'd love to see Cunego make the podium, but not much chance of that. Great tour for him though!

[veloduffer]

I can't understand why Cadel and AC didn't mark Andy's move (I haven't seen the footage and have only read the reports). Maybe they thought the move was premature with so many km to go? :confused:

[oldguy00]

I see that Mark Cavendish got dropped by the last group, and he finished outside of the time limit.
But instead of kicking him from the race, they allow him to stay, and just deduct 20 points from his green jersey lead, which still leaves him in first place.
How is that fair?

[phcollard]

I see that Mark Cavendish got dropped by the last group, and he finished outside of the time limit.
But instead of kicking him from the race, they allow him to stay, and just deduct 20 points from his green jersey lead, which still leaves him in first place.
How is that fair?

Are you kidding??? Source?

Unfair it is!

[JMerring]

Are you kidding??? Source?

Unfair it is!

take a look at the standings on the official site - it's true.

imo, the whole concept of a time cuttoff is unfair. if you can finish the stage, that's all that should matter.

[MattTuck]

take a look at the standings on the official site - it's true.

imo, the whole concept of a time cuttoff is unfair. if you can finish the stage, that's all that should matter.

It is a race, not a recreational century. The cut off time is a function of both balancing public interest (keeping the roads closed as short as possible) and providing a fair sporting environment. If there were no time limit, riders could take relaxing days to prepare for and save their energy for big attacks the next day. This already happens, on the intermediate mountain stages when the riders know they'll finish within the cut off time, they just take the hills at a recovery pace if there aren't points at risk.

That is not racing, and that is why the time limit is required.

[tuxbailey]

I see that Mark Cavendish got dropped by the last group, and he finished outside of the time limit.
But instead of kicking him from the race, they allow him to stay, and just deduct 20 points from his green jersey lead, which still leaves him in first place.
How is that fair?


Wow now Tylar is really going to vent, specially if Cavendish wins in Paris.

[harlond]

I see that Mark Cavendish got dropped by the last group, and he finished outside of the time limit.
But instead of kicking him from the race, they allow him to stay, and just deduct 20 points from his green jersey lead, which still leaves him in first place.
How is that fair?Well, half the peleton finished in the same group with Cavendish, and it looks like they docked everyone in the group 20 points, including Gilbert, Cancellara, Martin, and Greipel, and I think Thor. I doubt we really want all those guys out of the race.

[JMerring]

I can't understand why Cadel and AC didn't mark Andy's move (I haven't seen the footage and have only read the reports). Maybe they thought the move was premature with so many km to go? :confused:

my guess is that ac couldn't and cadel thought it premature. big mistake, obviously.

[oldguy00]

Well, half the peleton finished in the same group with Cavendish, and it looks like they docked everyone in the group 20 points, including Gilbert, Cancellara, Martin, and Greipel, and I think Thor. I doubt we really want all those guys out of the race.

If thats true, then I can understand it. But the report made it sound like he was the only one:


"The grupetto made it to the finish line within the time limit. Green jersey Mark Cavendish of HTC-Highroad was behind that group, and actually finished outside the time limit. The race jury allowed him to stay in the race but deducted 20 points from his total. He now leads Movistar's Joaquin Jose Rojas by only 15 points."

[JMerring]

It is a race, not a recreational century. The cut off time is a function of both balancing public interest (keeping the roads closed as short as possible) and providing a fair sporting environment. If there were no time limit, riders could take relaxing days to prepare for and save their energy for big attacks the next day. This already happens, on the intermediate mountain stages when the riders know they'll finish within the cut off time, they just take the hills at a recovery pace if there aren't points at risk.

That is not racing, and that is why the time limit is required.

not buying that. it's not as if the race is open to anyone who can finish. as you know, there are invited teams who have hired guns. if one or more of those guns decide to take it easy, well then they risk getting oscar perreiro or andy schleck as their winner. that's racing.

there's a green jersey competition for a reason; arbitrary time cutoffs shouldn't decide the result.

and as for public interest, you're talking about the biggest event on the french sporting calendar. the lost productivity/inconvenience of an hour or 2 more of closed roads won't even amount to a rounding error.

[harlond]

my guess is that ac couldn't and cadel thought it premature. big mistake, obviously.I expect Cadel also was counting on the fact that AC and Sanchez would help in the chase, which turned out not to be true. The only guy up there that looked like he could have helped Cadel was Basso. That he didn't probably means he couldn't. Cadel's team did not come up big today, but the only teams that did were Leopard and Europcar. I don't think Voeckler can hold the yellow jersey, but I'm really rooting for Pierre Rolland for the white jersey.

[thenewguy11]

I told myself all morning that I was going to avoid cycling websites so I could watch the stage tonight without knowing the result. I can't help myself though and despite the "spoiler" heading, here I am. Now I'm excited to watch the stage tonight but something will be missing. I probably do this every July. Oh well.

[Derailer]

I told myself all morning that I was going to avoid cycling websites so I could watch the stage tonight without knowing the result. I can't help myself though and despite the "spoiler" heading, here I am. Now I'm excited to watch the stage tonight but something will be missing. I probably do this every July. Oh well.

Same here. I cracked 15 minutes ago. It will still be fun to watch tonight.

[veloduffer]

Same here. I cracked 15 minutes ago. It will still be fun to watch tonight.

I do the same but mostly to get fast forward the DVR - I can't start watching a 3.5 hr race at 9pm each night and expect to stay awake at work. To be honest, it doesn't detract from my enjoyment - I just enjoy guys attacking and seeing who can stay with them.

[MadRocketSci]

There are three types of people: 1) those who make things happen; 2) those who wait for things to happen; and 3) those who wonder what happened!

from our company's website today...i thought it was apropo!

[soulspinner]

If Im Cadel and feeling good tomorrow I want another minute on AS and Id try and take it. AS has to be spent tomorrow. Cadel knows he can out time trial TV, AS, or FS. At least Andy made this exciting.

[thwart]

At least Andy made this exciting. Safe to say... :rolleyes:

[JMerring]

If Im Cadel and feeling good tomorrow I want another minute on AS and Id try and take it. AS has to be spent tomorrow. Cadel knows he can out time trial TV, AS, or FS. At least Andy made this exciting.

contador and evans working together, contador for the stage win and to salvage some respect, and cadel for the overall?

[Ray]

Wow, I just watched the whole thing without having seen any reports. Hell of an effort by Andy and Cadel. I guess we know why Contador didn't look so great for most of this Tour - because for whatever combination of reasons, he just didn't have it. And I'm sure he knew it, but sometimes it takes a day like to day to make it apparent to everyone else.

I remember in '03 on the stage to Luz Ardiden, Ulrich attacked on the Tourmalet, and Lance later said something like 'that's when I knew he wasn't going to win the Tour de France'. And I expect that's why Cadel and the other contenders didn't mark him when he took off. Just figured it was too early and he wouldn't be able to make it stick. He took a huge gamble and made it work, although maybe just temporarily. As hard as he worked today, he probably can't take additional time tomorrow and he's not far enough ahead of Cadel for any margin in the TT (assuming Voekler won't play well in the TT either, so I'm just hoping he can manage to somehow stay on the podium). And if he's cooked enough, he could lose time tomorrow. Then again, Cadel did so much work pulling the time back today, who knows what HE'LL have left tomorrow? In any case, today made the race and props to Andy for going for it.

-Ray

[soulspinner]

contador and evans working together, contador for the stage win and to salvage some respect, and cadel for the overall?


Sounds like a good way 2 go......

[BumbleBeeDave]

Well, half the peleton finished in the same group with Cavendish, and it looks like they docked everyone in the group 20 points, including Gilbert, Cancellara, Martin, and Greipel, and I think Thor. I doubt we really want all those guys out of the race.

There have been other times when, if they enforced this rule with no exceptions, half the peloton would have been ejected. I believe that was the case either in '99 when they had that big crash on the ocean-covered road or in '04 when Voeckler and others got into that 30-45 minute lead breakaway that put him in yellow that time. My memory of exact instances may be faulty, but I am sure they've done it before to avoid eliminating huge chunks of the peloton.

A bit odd, though, how some are so willing to believe that they did it this time ONLY for Cavendish. to me, it just speaks to how low the public opinion has gotten of the UCI that they would do something like that.

BBD

[Johnny P]

how impressive is Roland working from Tommy V

Agreed. I hope he takes the white jersey. :beer:

[MattTuck]

not buying that. it's not as if the race is open to anyone who can finish. as you know, there are invited teams who have hired guns. if one or more of those guns decide to take it easy, well then they risk getting oscar perreiro or andy schleck as their winner. that's racing.

there's a green jersey competition for a reason; arbitrary time cutoffs shouldn't decide the result.

and as for public interest, you're talking about the biggest event on the french sporting calendar. the lost productivity/inconvenience of an hour or 2 more of closed roads won't even amount to a rounding error.

There are certainly stages where keeping the roads open longer would be an option. But on the mountain stages, it is a real logistical nightmare, think of all the fans, race staff, broadcasters, team cars, team busses, etc. Think of all those folks coming DOWN alpe d'huez tomorrow after waiting for every straggler to roll into the finish line after mailing it in from the start of the stage to get rest up for sprinting in Paris.

There are also issues of keeping the race together (for safety and security reasons) beyond just closing the roads from the public. Race officials, police, medical staff, and team staff can't do their jobs properly if they're stretched too thin.

As for arbitrary time cut offs, I'm not sure what is arbitrary about them. It is a system based on a formula that the riders are well aware of. It's not as if the ASO spins a wheel during the stage that determines some random cut off time. it is based on the distance of the stage and the winner's time (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/arbitrary) What you saw today with Cavendish IS arbitrary, in the sense that it was "based on or determined by individual preference or convenience."

I understand you don't want the Green jersey competition to be determined by the difference of finishing the stage too late. So, by extension, you wouldn't support ANY rider being thrown out for finishing a stage late. Because, I think what you're saying is that you want all riders treated equally.

I personally think the cut off also benefits rider safety, by forcing injured riders to withdraw rather than having their DSs push them to the point of harming their bodies.

[JMerring]

There are certainly stages where keeping the roads open longer would be an option. But on the mountain stages, it is a real logistical nightmare, think of all the fans, race staff, broadcasters, team cars, team busses, etc. Think of all those folks coming DOWN alpe d'huez tomorrow after waiting for every straggler to roll into the finish line after mailing it in from the start of the stage to get rest up for sprinting in Paris.

There are also issues of keeping the race together (for safety and security reasons) beyond just closing the roads from the public. Race officials, police, medical staff, and team staff can't do their jobs properly if they're stretched too thin.

As for arbitrary time cut offs, I'm not sure what is arbitrary about them. It is a system based on a formula that the riders are well aware of. It's not as if the ASO spins a wheel during the stage that determines some random cut off time. it is based on the distance of the stage and the winner's time (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/arbitrary) What you saw today with Cavendish IS arbitrary, in the sense that it was "based on or determined by individual preference or convenience."

I understand you don't want the Green jersey competition to be determined by the difference of finishing the stage too late. So, by extension, you wouldn't support ANY rider being thrown out for finishing a stage late. Because, I think what you're saying is that you want all riders treated equally.

I personally think the cut off also benefits rider safety, by forcing injured riders to withdraw rather than having their DSs push them to the point of harming their bodies.

i appreciate the insight and i'm sure you're spot on. all i'm saying is that the time cut off is, in my view, idiotic and unfair amd not really necessary. i understand the need for a cut off in recreational/non-professional events. but in the context of a 3-week race contested by a closed field of professionals that has more than 1 prize and more than 1 type of athlete, the cutoff seems unnecessarily penal, especially for those blessed with fast twitch muscle fibers. recently there was an edition of the tour where at least 1 rider missed the cutoff on the next to last stage. he never finished the tour as a result and that just blows.

[jpw]

I would like to see the time cut principle applied elsewhere on stages to add a weighted measure of balance between sprinters and climbers. If GC contenders (almost always riders blessed with climbing ability) clock an average speed in the final 5 km of a flat stage that is more than say 5% slower than that of the stage winner they get 1 minute added to their overall time.

[Elefantino]

Andy showed some nuts of carbon fiber today, but the little skeptic in the back of my mind kept thinking of t-bags and another stage winner's nuts.

http://www.examiner.com/images/blog/wysiwyg/image/landismad.jpg

Admit it. You were thinking the same thing.

[JMerring]

Andy showed some nuts of carbon fiber today, but the little skeptic in the back of my mind kept thinking of t-bags and another stage winner's nuts.


Admit it. You were thinking the same thing.


hey, now, i beat you to it (2 or so pages ago):

paul: "in my life i've never seen an attack like that." really? what about floyd?

[Elefantino]

hey, now, i beat you to it (2 or so pages ago):
I only come to this site for the pictures, so I didn't see it. :banana:

[Andreas]

my guess is that ac couldn't and cadel thought it premature. big mistake, obviously.


???
Why big mistake?

Unless AS takes another minute or so off cuddy tomorrow, CE has won the tour. Doubt that AS has that in the tank.

[William]

contador and evans working together, contador for the stage win and to salvage some respect, and cadel for the overall?

Frank sat in and rested (as much as one can rest on a stage like that) while Cadel, AC, TV, and Sanchez busted a nut trying to reel AS in. Tomorrow Frank tries to take the flyer and force the chase again while AS sits in and hopes the other boys blow up again....then goes for it himself. With all the talk of AC sand bagging it, maybe we were all sand bagged by the Brothers Schleck....


Or not. :D




William

[Sandy]

+1

Time gap is not affected by grade (unless we're talking climber vs sprinter) in which case the change is a real difference.

I do not understand that at all. How can grade not have an effect on the time gap? What is the precise definition of time gap, please.


Sandy

[Uncle Jam's Army]

Andy showed some nuts of carbon fiber today, but the little skeptic in the back of my mind kept thinking of t-bags and another stage winner's nuts.

http://www.examiner.com/images/blog/wysiwyg/image/landismad.jpg

Admit it. You were thinking the same thing.

Nope. Wasn't thinking it compared at all. Floyd's breakaway was much longer and out of this world. AS actually showed some weakness in the last 3 k and Cadel pulled back almost 2 minutes of his lead in that last 3 k. At the end of the day, Floyd pulled back what, almost 6 minutes? AS pulled back a little over 2 minutes.

[e-RICHIE]

A bit odd, though, how some are so willing to believe that they did it this time ONLY for Cavendish. to me, it just speaks to how low the public opinion has gotten of the UCI that they would do something like that.



what does the UCI have to do with this atmo?

ps

arrange disorder

:o :o :o
:o :o :o
:D :o :o

[majl]

Nope. Wasn't thinking it compared at all. Floyd's breakaway was much longer and out of this world. AS actually showed some weakness in the last 3 k and Cadel pulled back almost 2 minutes of his lead in that last 3 k. At the end of the day, Floyd pulled back what, almost 6 minutes? AS pulled back a little over 2 minutes.
+1.

When he first went away, yes it did bring back thoughts of FL's attack in 2006, but when AS faded hard over the last couple of kms, especially in the final km, I gave him the benefit of the doubt. Typically when you see these guys hit the 1k kite in the lead on a big mountain stage, they are flying on adrenaline to the finish line, with stage glory imminent. AS's face and pedal stroke showed that he was suffering big time - not what you would expect of a doper.

[BumbleBeeDave]

what does the UCI have to do with this atmo?

ps

arrange disorder

:o :o :o
:o :o :o
:D :o :o

Aren't the race judges who make such decisions from the UCI? ASO would not make this decision, would they?

BBD

[William]

what does the UCI have to do with this atmo?

ps

arrange disorder






Everything I hope!!! :banana:



http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/0804/campus.cheer.ucirvine/images/Andrea-UCI-13.jpg




William

[thegunner]

I do not understand that at all. How can grade not have an effect on the time gap? What is the precise definition of time gap, please.


Sandy

as the person who started this conversation... the time at which andy hit one point on the course vs. when his competitors hit that same point on the course. since it's an absolute comparison of a singular point... theoretically it should be indicative of separation regardless of terrain.

after thinking about it some more though, the idea of a time gap is flawed in the same way a control system is flawed, the feedback delay is always going to be dependent on lag until the second rider hits that point. so actually i still have a problem with phils idiotic statement since he has no clue what pace andy is riding at vs. cadel AFTER he leaves the point by which the trailing rider is being compared.

[e-RICHIE]

Aren't the race judges who make such decisions from the UCI? ASO would not make this decision, would they?

BBD


the race org makes the rules for the race atmo. they hire the UCI to work the race.
if i am wrong. i'm sure you could find at least 6 people here happy enough to let me
know publicly.

ps

arrange disorder

:p :p :p
;) ;) ;)
:cool: :cool: :cool:

[lurpy]

as the person who started this conversation... the time at which andy hit one point on the course vs. when his competitors hit that same point on the course. since it's an absolute comparison of a singular point... theoretically it should be indicative of separation regardless of terrain.

after thinking about it some more though, the idea of a time gap is flawed in the same way a control system is flawed, the feedback delay is always going to be dependent on lag until the second rider hits that point. so actually i still have a problem with phils idiotic statement since he has no clue what pace andy is riding at vs. cadel AFTER he leaves the point by which the trailing rider is being compared.

Phil was commenting on the trend of the time gap. As the second rider gets to each point of measurement, the time gap between the two is either closing, remaining the same, or opening. In the last few k's today the time gap was continually closing, indicating that Cadel was riding at a higher pace. Of course the trend could reverse, but based on how the stage had played out up to that point, it was pretty easy to deduce that Andy was fading.

[Ray]

as the person who started this conversation... the time at which andy hit one point on the course vs. when his competitors hit that same point on the course. since it's an absolute comparison of a singular point... theoretically it should be indicative of separation regardless of terrain.
Nothing theoretical about it. I'm assuming that with all of the computers and transmitters that each rider has, the Tour can pretty much track each rider's time at any given point on the course. So when the chase group arrives at a point, they can quickly compare that time to when the rider being chased hit that point and that's how a time gap is established. I'm assuming that when P&P announce that "race radio has indicated that the gap has gone out to XXX or has come down to YYY", that's how the nice folks at "race radio" are doing the calculation. I can't think of any other way they could possibly be making it. Since they've each ridden exactly the same terrain to that timing point, the time gap is totally independent of the grade that any of the riders involved are on at that given instant.

-Ray

[Sandy]

as the person who started this conversation... the time at which andy hit one point on the course vs. when his competitors hit that same point on the course. since it's an absolute comparison of a singular point... theoretically it should be indicative of separation regardless of terrain.

after thinking about it some more though, the idea of a time gap is flawed in the same way a control system is flawed, the feedback delay is always going to be dependent on lag until the second rider hits that point. so actually i still have a problem with phils idiotic statement since he has no clue what pace andy is riding at vs. cadel AFTER he leaves the point by which the trailing rider is being compared.

Thanks. I did not know that was the definition. Now it makes sense. Clearly separation only to "that point".

Thanks again.


Sandy

[thegunner]

Phil was commenting on the trend of the time gap. As the second rider gets to each point of measurement, the time gap between the two is either closing, remaining the same, or opening. In the last few k's today the time gap was continually closing, indicating that Cadel was riding at a higher pace. Of course the trend could reverse, but based on how the stage had played out up to that point, it was pretty easy to deduce that Andy was fading.

sure but obviously the accuracy of these comparisons gets less and less precise once the time gap becomes significant. for a while phil was saying that cadel was putting time on AS even when the numbers at the bottom said different. clearly, attempting to deduce "trends" wasn't working.

Nothing theoretical about it. I'm assuming that with all of the computers and transmitters that each rider has, the Tour can pretty much track each rider's time at any given point on the course. So when the chase group arrives at a point, they can quickly compare that time to when the rider being chased hit that point and that's how a time gap is established. I'm assuming that when P&P announce that "race radio has indicated that the gap has gone out to XXX or has come down to YYY", that's how the nice folks at "race radio" are doing the calculation. I can't think of any other way they could possibly be making it. Since they've each ridden exactly the same terrain to that timing point, the time gap is totally independent of the grade that any of the riders involved are on at that given instant.

-Ray

you're right, my wording was ambiguous. my main issue is with the lack of accuracy when you're comparing a data point separated by 4 minutes. the relay of real time statistics isn't conveyed until after 4 minutes. a lot can happen in 4 minutes.

[Ray]

you're right, my wording was ambiguous. my main issue is with the lack of accuracy when you're comparing a data point separated by 4 minutes. the relay of real time statistics isn't conveyed until after 4 minutes. a lot can happen in 4 minutes.
True, but no way to predict how fast the trailing riders will ride the same ground the lead rider(s) just covered in that four minutes, so all you can do is a single point comparison and then say things like "Andy is clearly struggling - he'll have to dig deep into that suitcase of courage now"! And we can laugh and/or scratch our heads, but they don't have any way of getting better information without predicting the future...

-Ray

[Climb01742]

given how deep AS and CE dug today, i wonder if one of them cracks tomorrow on the alp? bravo to both for today. tomorrow will be fascinating.

[rustychisel]

classic cadel. only following wheels :rolleyes:

well you reap what you sow.

okay, so I've read as far as page 3, and this ... well, words fail me really. What is the obverse of 'prescient'? :crap: :crap: :crap:

Dumb and dumber

[thinpin]

okay, so I've read as far as page 3, and this ... well, words fail me really. What is the obverse of 'prescient'? :crap: :crap: :crap:

Dumb and dumber
Clearly not seeing what I saw

[thinpin]

Anyone notice on the first climb Frank getting very touchy with a camera when he was stuffing his mouth. What was that all about?

[Louis]

after thinking about it some more though, the idea of a time gap is flawed in the same way a control system is flawed, the feedback delay is always going to be dependent on lag until the second rider hits that point. so actually i still have a problem with phils idiotic statement since he has no clue what pace andy is riding at vs. cadel AFTER he leaves the point by which the trailing rider is being compared.


Obviously when the trailing rider hits point X the lead rider up at point X + y may have just had a heart attack and died, or the trailing rider may have his bars hooked by a clueless spectator, foiling his chase attempt, but that's a limitation of any system. At a given time there's no way to predict the future. As was said above, all you can do is look at trends and project forward. If the gap is closing like crazy, then the trailing rider may catch up, assuming that the past is a predictor of the future and enough of the race remains.

[1centaur]

When Landis did THAT ride we got to hear all about average wattage and how he'd done that in training many times (yes, I know). It would be nice to compare average wattage for Andy and Cadel from the moment that Andy went. I suspect it would not be hugely different.

[NHAero]

Wouldn't you need watts/kilogram for each rider, rather than raw wattage?
I was surprised (since I've watched almost none of this type of racing live) how slow their cadence seemed grinding up to the Col. Is that typical? Or did I misjudge what I was seeing and they were cranking at 90 or more rpm?

When Landis did THAT ride we got to hear all about average wattage and how he'd done that in training many times (yes, I know). It would be nice to compare average wattage for Andy and Cadel from the moment that Andy went. I suspect it would not be hugely different.

[thegunner]

okay, so I've read as far as page 3, and this ... well, words fail me really. What is the obverse of 'prescient'? :crap: :crap: :crap:

Dumb and dumber

you must've missed the timestamp. this was well before the end of the stage :p

[William]

Anyone notice on the first climb Frank getting very touchy with a camera when he was stuffing his mouth. What was that all about?

Shhhh, Carbo loading for his launch in tomorrows stage. ;)


William

[rustychisel]

you must've missed the timestamp. this was well before the end of the stage :p

and you missed the significance of 'prescient'. I thought you might come back and reveal some understanding of race tactics and strictures. After all, if you're going to lazily label any of those champions as 'wheelsuckers' then yesterday's candidate must surely be Thomas Voeckler...