Question sure to offend someone....

[saab2000]

I just got finished riding my Merckx Majestic Ti for 3 pretty hard days. The thing is nice. It rides nicely, rolls smoothly (though it is not a magic carpet, which is fine) and it handles nicely. It passes the "no-handed" test. i.e. it can be ridden at slow and fast speeds alike hands off and is very easy to control simply by slight weight shifts. It goes where I want and rides in a straight line without me having to make it do so.

So where's the problem?

It seems slow.

I cannot get over the sensation with this bike that I am pedalling through wet sand. No joke. This is more noticable going uphill and also when trying to go hard on the flats.

What's up? There are very few compromises on this bike and I had my good wheels installed. There does not seem to be significant flex in the BB area. There is no front der rubbing.

This morning I was back on my steel bike which weighs 3 lbs more (don't care at all, just pointing it out) and it feels livelier.

Has anyone else had a bike which left them lukewarm? There is no logic to this. This bike does virtually everything right, except that it seems slow. It is made by Litespeed and that is fine. But others tell me that other "higher" end Ti bike are snappier. Legends or Spectrums, etc.

What's the scoop? Is it possible that I am just not a Ti rider?

Anyone else have something like this happen? The bike is a top bike. Record parts. Nucleon tubies with Veloflexes. It don't get much better. But the bike feels like molasses........

PS - This is not a slam on Litespeed or Merckx. But is it possible that this, being at the pinnacle of neither company's lineups is simply not really representative of Ti at its best?

[BumbleBeeDave]

Is it possible something is dragging somewhere that you are not aware of? Brake pad, hub, BB, or something?

BBDave

[SGP]

have you measured your cadence, speed or power output with a computer or meter? or is the observation more based on "feel"

[RichMc]

If most of the frame dimensions are similar to your other bike then you may just be thrown off by the muting properties of Ti. Do you have some actual "timed" comparisons between the Merkx and the other bike? If I were you then I'd get some hard empirical numbers and then compare. Perceptions are easily distorted by a number of factors. Quantitative tests are less easy to dispute.

[David Kirk]

What do you weigh?

Dave

[saab2000]

Nothing is rubbing. It rolls fine. Get it up to speed and it stays there and coasts great. But getting it up to speed seems to take more work than on my other bikes, most notably my Strong.

I have no objective, cold, hard data to back this up. I have no power meter or heart rate monitor. It is just me riding the bike.

I know that is vague and unscientific, but it is the way it is. Next week I have some days off and will be back on the bike. I am starting a 3-day trip this afternoon but got in 25 miles this morning before coming down to Chicago.

Next week I will ride them back to back and try to get a better feel for the thing.

I know it seems wacky. But there seems to be no life in this bike. It just rides. Great for easy rides, but I am not sure it is a "real racing bike", whatever that means.

[saab2000]

I weigh about 180. I am 6 feet tall. The bike is set up very closely to my other bikes.

It is possible that I simply need time to adjust to Ti. All I have ever had in my whole 21 year cycling career is steel.

Again, this is totally unscientific. Just me and my 21 years of riding telling me it feels lifeless.

I used to race a lot, but have less of a feel for this stuff than other racers who frequent this site, including Mr. Jerk, whose opinion is worth listening to occasionally.

Those who build bikes would be welcome to comment. Thanks Mr. Kirk for asking. I wish I were my racing weight of 160 or so, but I am not anymore.......

[Ginger]

Very closely?

I read your post and I was wondering....I just had my bike refit last night. The difference between spot on fit that we got last night and "good" fit I had it set up at were like night and day. It no longer feels like I'm dragging a brake (which I was the first time I rode it this year...no wonder it felt slow...DOH!) At first my fitter thought I was in excellent initial position...then we got to tinkering around and moved the saddle up and a tad forward. Maybe you need to check to see that your saddle hasn't wandered down from it's usual height and your knees are whereever you prefer them to be over the spindle?

I know nothing...it's just a thought.

[Kirk Pacenti]

Could it be that your Ti frame is signifigantly stiffer than your steel frame? I have often found an overly stiff frame can make a bike feel dead.

opinions.....

[Bruce Jacobs]

I am unsophisticated compared to most on this forum but here goes. I use a simple HRM-it just tells the HR, nothing more. When we ride in the evening, while we try to vary the 25 miles, there are loops and climbs that have to be done as part on any of the rides. Otherwise we can't get home. I know what my HR max should be just about anywhere in the ride. MY bpm were up about 15 and my calculated max (157) was approached on a climb that usually is no more than 145. I had a kidney stone attack (mild) that evening.

Some weeks ago we were completing a ride around the Great Swamp Refuge in NJ and the last 10 miles my HR was up about 10-15 bpm holding my speed at about 16mph. I am steady but not very fast. Point is my rear tire was down to about 40#. This does not speak to my powers of observation just that the HRM told the truth.

The HRM really tells me that something is wrong, whether it is the bike or the body. I would assume you have an HRM and that may be best objective devise to know what the story is with the ride.

[saab2000]

I have no HRM. I have no power meter. I just have a lot of experience. But apparently not enough to figure this one out.

It is possible that the bike is stiff.

Anyway, I will keep riding it. It is a good bike. Maybe I am just looking for an excuse to get another Strong......

[boulder_courier]

I don't mean to be a smart a@@, but did you demo the bike before the purchase?

My advice would be to go to the LBS and demo another Ti bike. Bring your bike and compare...

I have an old Litespeed and it feels less responsive and less lively than my Legend. The Litespeed has been regulated to crits and the trainer.

Jim

[Dr. Doofus]

doof hates ti

the infamous summer of the csi, doof took a long look at a merlin extralight the shop had, rode it a few times, and hated it. wet sand. doof has only toyed with four ti bikes, and never owned one, so what does he know....

ti isn't by itself flexy or soft -- dig the junk food bald man's legend kermesse bike...but the production ti bikes food has pedaled (litespeed ultimate, that merlin, and "signature" spec axiom) had that mush feel...build a ti frame to have more snap and it starts to get closer to steel in weight...so you're paying a grand more for the metal to do what you should be doing with frame saver and a rag anyway, but the doof digresses....

ti had its moment in the 90s until the italians figured out how to make real bikes out of AL and then the americans copied them and then everyone figured out it was cheaper just to make everything in asia...and now carbon is the new carbon...doof has borrowed a legend made for a guy with a smiliar build and position, and its a nice nice bike that rides a lot like steel...the builders on this board may be able to enlighten the doof, but really it seems like most ti frames aren't really "race" bikes, you can build ti to be snappy and stiff and have a "heavy" ti frame that will ride a lot like a good steel one, or you can have a really light ti frame that descends and sprints like crap...if you want the "ride quality" of ti then just get a nice steel bike from a skilled builder which will be nice to your back and also show off your bling and just wipe the damn thing off after it rains...you want a light stiff "race" bike and you're actually fit enough to use it for what its for, get AL or Carbon and have enough in the bank to replace it on monday, or just bite the bullet and get steel and let your legs and head do the rest...if you just want to show off your pocketbook and flaunt the latest in yuppie 90s tech, get ti....


sell that litemerckx and sell one of your FAs into slavery in Brunei and get a sachs or a goodrich or dazza special or a luigino...the saab man has the genetics to make whatever he wants go fast, and he's a steel guy....

[Fixed]

This guy knows how to ride a bike more than I ever will but I bet it is the ti frame and I would bet you expect it to ride like steel and it never will.The doc beat me to the punch man he is smart.but I bet saab knew this all along.

[Dr. Doofus]

The doc beat me to the punch man he is smart.

never confuse obtuse belligerence with intelligence

but doof likes you anyway

maybe he will get fixed

after we have some kids

[weisan]

I am offended!

:rolleyes:

[Fixed]

never confuse obtuse belligerence with intelligence

but doof likes you anyway

maybe he will get fixed

after we have some kids
Man I don't even know what that means I am just a street kid.but thanks I have learned alot from all you guys on the forum and thanks again , have a safe 4th. Remember God loves all of us.

[Big Dan]

I have to agree with both the Doctor and Fixed......
You know the feel you are looking for from a bike.
Apparently this Ti frame doesn't meet your expectations. After riding quality steel bikes for many years is not easy to find something that's just better..lighter maybe, but not better....
The quest for the perfect ride is part of what we do here........ and that quest never ends....:D

[BURCH]

I am sure this isn't the reason for you SAAB, but over the past 1-2 weeks, because of heat and humidity that has been hitting the Northeast, I have had the biking in the sand feeling for about the first 10 miles of every ride. My body just prefers cooler temps I guess.

[Marron]

I guess I have to chime in here as I just converted my Mercx TI-AX back to a geared bike and rode it for the first time this morning. The Majestic should theoreticaly be stiffer than the AX but not by much. My impression is that the Merck still feels pretty light and quick. That's set up with 9-Speed DA and Helium wheels. I'm 6'2" and 160 for what that's worth.

I use this bike for stuff like RAMROD and Markleville and I've never had the sensation of pedaling through mud. It always seems to go pretty well to me, but I do feel as if it's not as smooth as a steel frame. I remember reading a comment by Phil Anderson that the early Merckx Ti frames were way too stiff, but I think that was in the early 90's

I do sometimes feel as is my MX Leader is a bit of a drag, but the odd thing is that only happens on the flats, not on climbs. I mark it up to a low energy day on my part.

[Climb01742]

Could it be that your Ti frame is signifigantly stiffer than your steel frame? I have often found an overly stiff frame can make a bike feel dead.

i second this idea (though me seconding something KP says is like a gnat agreeing with an elephant but...a number of very knowledgeable folks -- including kelly b. and david kirk -- clued me into the idea that stiffer ain't always better.

saab, does it ever feel like you're fighting the bike? for me, a frame with just the right flex feels like it and i are synched up, in a rhythm, especially out of the saddle climbing. on a too stiff frame, the frame fights me, lurchs as opposed to flowing. a long while ago, i test rode a merckx ti and man was it stiff. hated it. might be the same with you...maybe?

[shinomaster]

Saab...
My cannondale made my Atlanta feel like a turtle....

[saab2000]

Alrighty then kids......

I'm back...

I was distracted for a couple hours by my itty bitty very pretty flight attendant. The one F/A who here who is not pushin' 220 lbs and 65 years.

Anyway.... must...... calm...... down........

The bike in question was gotten on ebay as a replacement for my Anvil. The Anvil felt stiffer.

I am not sorry I have this bike as I can probably unload it for not much loss. Besides, it handles great.

Bottom line: I don't think it is too stiff. The framebuilders here can probably comment better than I can. Handling is tops, rolls nice, just feels dead. I don't think anything is wrong with the bike. I think I am just a steel guy and my next bike will be another welded steel from Strong. Or Serotta. A CIII.

[vaxn8r]

Boy, doesn't this sound familiar? You explained exactly how I feel on my Atlanta. Maybe Kirk is on to something. For me it's not fit. It's not wheels. I can not believe that 3-4 lbs can make that large a difference as what I consistenly find.

So maybe my Atlanta is overbuilt. I do feel "beat up" when I ride it more than 50 miles. Now I wonder if it's the constant vibrations, being soaked up by the muscles, if that causes me to fatigue that much sooner?

I know Shino has made the same observations about his Atlanta. What do you think Saab? Is your Merkx overly stiff? Or maybe overly springy? Maybe there is a unique sweet spot for all of us on the stiffness-flexy scale where our particular styles flourish. Where we maximize our strength potential and basically can ride a particular bike faster than another particular bike. Quality, fit and components aside.

Other thoughts?

[shinomaster]

Some Ti frames Are noodles. I tested the cheap serotta ti frame and liked the atlanta more because it was stiffer back in 1999.

[zap]

Saab-I have a ti bike with stupid round tubes and it feels kind off slow. When hammering along at 25-35 mph the rear bounces around a bit as well and it just kind of sucks. The rear chain stays are round and really need to be oval. Doesn't matter if it has a 12 or 13 stem, the frame still feels the same. Ditto if the saddle is positioned 3.5cm back or 4.5 cm.

Just a minute, longer stems are better!

I still keep the thing because it's not my go fast bike, it doesn't rust and I don't care how much crude gets on the thing.

I like stiff bikes :banana:

I like to think Klein was the first one to make a decent al bike (well, it took a while to get the geo right) and it was the italians that finally figured out how to do it right:rolleyes: OK, Cannondales work too.

Carbon bikes can be good too and I like the one I have. For smaller and lighter riders it sucks because it's too stiff. It's been a long time since I last tested a carbon bike, but I'm sure there are some real good ones out there now.

Steel. What do I know. Never liked the CSI or Atlanta I tested. The stiffness was really nice, but I didn't like the constant buuuzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

But Zip really digs her super light, tigged CSI and she can beat the shorts off Sandy on the downhills.

That being said, kinda soft bikes that give just so can work if you find the groove.

But Saab, I think you would like the current Legend Ti's. I thought the earlier ones rode a bit stiff but now they seem to ride nicely.

One more thing.

Multi shaped tubes rule.

[Kirk Pacenti]

Multi shaped tubes rule.

Multi shaped tubes are the biggest marketing hoax going in the bike biz!

However, just to be sure I am not viewed as "retro", and in an effort to stay ahead of marketing trends, I will be releasing my very own tubeset next year. I have teamed up with Columbus to create the last word in bicycle tubing. (regardless of material, steel, ti, al, carbon...whatever)

Dubbed "Infinity", my new pipes will have an infinite number of facets on the tubes. To the untrained eye, they may look round, but those of us in the know will clearly see the the cool new shapes. More importantly we will realize huge performance gains over anyone riding bikes made from less sophisticated materials!

:p

[jerk]

Alrighty then kids......

I'm back...

I was distracted for a couple hours by my itty bitty very pretty flight attendant. The one F/A who here who is not pushin' 220 lbs and 65 years.

Anyway.... must...... calm...... down........

The bike in question was gotten on ebay as a replacement for my Anvil. The Anvil felt stiffer.

I am not sorry I have this bike as I can probably unload it for not much loss. Besides, it handles great.

Bottom line: I don't think it is too stiff. The framebuilders here can probably comment better than I can. Handling is tops, rolls nice, just feels dead. I don't think anything is wrong with the bike. I think I am just a steel guy and my next bike will be another welded steel from Strong. Or Serotta. A CIII.



She don't wear no pants and she don't wear no tie
Always on the ball, she's always on strike
Struttin' up the aisle, big deal, you get to fly
You ain't nothin' but a waitress in the sky
You ain't nothin' but a waitress in the sky

Paid my fare, don't wanna complain
You get to me, you're always outta champagne
Treat me like a bum, don't wear no tie
'cause you ain't nothin' but a waitress in the sky
You ain't nothin' but a waitress in the sky






And the sign says, "Thank you very much for not smoking"
My own sign says, "I'm sorry, I'm smokin'"
Don't treat me special, don't kiss my ***
Treat me like the way they treat 'em up in first class

Sanitation expert and a maintenance engineer
Garbage man, a janitor and you my dear
A real union flight attendant, my oh my
You ain't nothin' but a waitress in the sky
You ain't nothin' but a waitress in the sky
You ain't nothin' but a waitress in the sky

[dirtdigger88]

She don't wear no pants and she don't wear no tie
Always on the ball, she's always on strike
Struttin' up the aisle, big deal, you get to fly
You ain't nothin' but a waitress in the sky
You ain't nothin' but a waitress in the sky

Paid my fare, don't wanna complain
You get to me, you're always outta champagne
Treat me like a bum, don't wear no tie
'cause you ain't nothin' but a waitress in the sky
You ain't nothin' but a waitress in the sky






And the sign says, "Thank you very much for not smoking"
My own sign says, "I'm sorry, I'm smokin'"
Don't treat me special, don't kiss my ***
Treat me like the way they treat 'em up in first class

Sanitation expert and a maintenance engineer
Garbage man, a janitor and you my dear
A real union flight attendant, my oh my
You ain't nothin' but a waitress in the sky
You ain't nothin' but a waitress in the sky
You ain't nothin' but a waitress in the sky

ok so I see that the jerk replies to the thread- I think to myself- Ok self- the jerk will have some reason for all of this- instead- I get a catchy song-

Thanks jerk
Jason

[cpg]

It could be lots of things. It could be something small or something big or a series of small things that add up to create this feeling. A wise man told me of the 2 percent theory. It's what's in the 2 percent that makes all the difference. One thing that comes to mind is the obvious, you like the feel of steel. Nothing wrong with that. Another thing that comes to mind is the Merspeed is built in a factory setting vs. the Strong is built by one or two sets of hands. Another wise man said "The weak link is always the work force." This can make the difference and can easily constitute the 2 percent. If this seems vague, well, it is but I don't wish to fuffle any feathers.

Curt

[Climb01742]

If this seems vague, well, it is but I don't wish to fuffle any feathers. Curt

curt, why not ruffle some feathers? telling the truth, as you see it, is a good thing, no? you're always polite, so why not speak your mind? i worry sometimes...is the forum becoming too politically correct...if folks bite their tongues, are honest, enlightening, provacative opinions being lost?

[cpg]

Oops, I guess you figured out I meant ruffle. I think it would be crossing the line and I value our host's generous hospitality.

Curt

[Climb01742]

ah, i see. ben's hospitality is a good and generous thing. :beer:

[yarg]

My goodness people - we sure do like to exaggerate! Are we that bored that minor perceptions are worth trashing good frames. No way is the differences between your good steel and titanium frames worth all this hub bub. Yes I have owned steel, ti, aluminum, & cf, but not more than two at a time. Did you ever think you were irregular that day, either bowel or riding wise. Flame on, but this thread is boderline ridiculous.

[vaxn8r]

My goodness people - we sure do like to exaggerate! Are we that bored that minor perceptions are worth trashing good frames. No way is the differences between your good steel and titanium frames worth all this hub bub. Yes I have owned steel, ti, aluminum, & cf, but not more than two at a time. Did you ever think you were irregular that day, either bowel or riding wise. Flame on, but this thread is boderline ridiculous.
Yeah, you do have a point. I guess we'd be better off to go back to discussing tire widths or compact crank designs or whatever it is that you deem non-ridiculous. Please.

[Big Dan]

My goodness people - we sure do like to exaggerate! Are we that bored that minor perceptions are worth trashing good frames. No way is the differences between your good steel and titanium frames worth all this hub bub. Yes I have owned steel, ti, aluminum, & cf, but not more than two at a time. Did you ever think you were irregular that day, either bowel or riding wise. Flame on, but this thread is boderline ridiculous.

Y..why even come in??? Sorry that we decided to talk about bicycles today....
Didn't mean to waste your precious time.............. :butt:

[Climb01742]

saab seems like a guy who rides a lot and loves riding. the more you ride, the more those "small" feelings, or "minor" differences mean to us or stand out. spend 3 or 4 hours in a saddle, and/or 15-20 hours a week riding, and the last 2% becomes huge.

[weisan]

It could be lots of things. It could be something small or something big or a series of small things that add up to create this feeling. A wise man told me of the 2 percent theory. It's what's in the 2 percent that makes all the difference. One thing that comes to mind is the obvious, you like the feel of steel. Nothing wrong with that. Another thing that comes to mind is the Merspeed is built in a factory setting vs. the Strong is built by one or two sets of hands. Another wise man said "The weak link is always the work force." This can make the difference and can easily constitute the 2 percent. If this seems vague, well, it is but I don't wish to fuffle any feathers.

Curt


Curt-pal, how many "wise men" you've got left in the closet??!! I can't wait to meet all of em'.
Show me the money!!! :D ;) :p :banana: :beer:

[RichMc]

Saab,

If you can do it, get a watch with a stopwatch function. Ride the Ti bike over a set course and time. Then ride one of you other bikes over the same course and time the ride. See if there is any appreciable difference. It's not the best test but it might tell something.

[GoJavs]

saab - check all your measures. Seat might be off a bit or the bars might have dropped. I've had rides where I just can't move and then I get home and notice that the seatpost dropped 0.5 cm....It's that close.

Then again, a pound or two distributed differently throughout the bike makes a big difference two. My rb2 is about 1.5 lbs heavier than the rest of my bikes. It's great on short rides. On windy days and long rides, it's like hauling a midget on your back! :crap:

[dirtdigger88]

its probably that crappy old flite saddle you are using- I heard the last guy to use it was slower than the seven year itch ;)

Jason

[coylifut]

Christoph has one of these and he describes the bottom bracket area as bit flexy, yet the bike doesn't exhibit the majic carpet ride that is sought after in ti bikes. However, his Spectrum is very solid in the bottom bracket area yet does have that majic carpet ride feel. Also, the Merckx isn't particularly light.

[Peter]

As we like to say at work, "Perception Is Reality".

If you don't get it, what it means is, I don't care what ANY HRM/SRM/PSAT/ NMSQT/PHD/ESQ says about how fast you are on the bike. If the bike doesn't FEEL right to you, you aren't going to enjoy it. This is reason enough to look elsewhere.

The frame may not be faulty, but it's not a good match for you. Sort of like dating the wrong woman.

[Fixed]

Hey guys saab is a real rider if he says it , it's so this guy is the real deal,

[saab2000]

Sure enough, I offended Mr. Yarg.

He is right about the princess and the pea analogy. It does indeed seem odd that I can tell a difference. But I can. Does that make the Merckx a bad bike? Of course not. Like I said, it has some other qualities which are very important, top of which is good handling.

Nobody is right and nobody is wrong here. What the others have said is probably simply the truth: namely that I am a steel rider.

My Strong is basic Foco with a steel (EL/OS) fork. The bike maybe weighs a pound more than my Merckx Majestic Ti. But it "feels" far more alive.

Thanks to all for the responses. I know it is just a question of feel and there is probably nothing wrong with me or the bike.

Those who said I ride a lot are not wrong. The past years I have been down to 5000 miles or so, but I used to ride about 15K miles per year. Not boasting at all, but I have ridden enough to think I am qualified to say what I like and what I don't like. I still want to try a Merckx Premium.

I'll probably end up with an e-richie bike someday...... :beer:

Have fun riding! I will "test" my Merckx side by side with my Strong soon. I have a park nearby with a 1.2 mile road loop with 2 hills on it. It will be perfect to compare them one after the other, especially up those short, steep hills. That is where the difference should become most apparent.

I'll be back on the bike on Monday, after a 2-day layoff. :banana:

[TAW]

I recently sold a CSI and so the bike I have left is a Look CF. While I honestly don't think there'd be any perceptible difference in speed or climbing ability, I miss the feel of the CSI when you step on it. The Look rides better, is probably more flexy, but doesn't inspire me, and I feel like I'm dragging it with me. I'm currently looking for another frame for this reason. I also wouldn't underestimate the speed advantage gained from the "feel" of a snappier bike. It makes you want to go faster?

[rePhil]

You say you like your Strong and are thinking about having him build you another. Why?
I have a Strong too. Foco with a carbon fork. It feels much better than my Italian SL & SLX bikes. Even though they have the same geometry, the Strong feels snappier and stiffer. I can't see myself parting with it. I remember the first group ride on it when we were cruising around 25 mph. It was amazing compared to my SL bike I normally rode. While I wasn't any faster, it felt easier to get to speed,hold it and accelerate. I feel Carl built me a heckava bike at a nice price.

That said I have a Moots too. The ride is very nice. No wet sand feeling.I keep my bikes a long time and wanted a bike that I didn't want to worry about rust from my toxic sweat.
I was looking for a used Legend when I found a used Moots at a fair price. While I worry about rust, the powdercoat on the Strong still looks new.

I have no advice for you other than to say in my case I feel the Ti rides great, real close to my steel. Barring catostrophic failure I don't see myself ever replacing either one. I am fortunate to be satisfied....for now.

[weisan]

Saab-Machine, you should check out this thread....
Why does the Jerk think Titanium blows as a frame material? (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=4110)