Bad bike shop service / bike fitting

[vandeda]

Hey everyone ... I'm sorry, please bare with me ... but I need to vent a bit. And the best part is, it has nothing to do w/me directly. But, I have a couple friends who recently got into biking. They asked where to buy a bike and I recommended a shop that I know a couple people had a good experience with, though I had never been there myself (they asked for a place closeby too, as they weren't willing to travel further).

Well, one of them 2 friends got a regular road bike ... a Trek 1000. She's fairly short .... but the shop recommended the smallest men's bike. They wanted me to go, but I got a call saying "we're leaving now for the bike shop", to which my reply was "ummmm .... i need a little more lead time than that".

Well, they bought the bike. I tried to stress as much as I could that fit would be very important, and don't buy it if it doesn't seem right. Try to give them a few pointers, and they followed none of them. Her bike has a stem that's no longer than 70 mm, but looks to be 60 mm ... it is literally a stub, I'm surprised they could even weld the thing together. I saw it and thought "that is a lmsot fit for a downhill bike". Then add at least an inch of spacers under the stem ... at least an inch. I didn't want to look too close, or my friend would notice me inspecting a bit too close. AND, the seat is almost slammed full forward on the seat rails!!! This bike does not fit at all. I can't believe a bike shop could send someone out on such a poorly setup rig. :crap:

And she is sooooooooooooooooooooo in love with the bike too. All I could say was "I'm sure you'll enjoy it" :crap:

Jerk ... you think 60 mm is too small?

Oh well, I'm not sure why it bothers me so much when it's not even my bike ..... oh, probably because I recommended the shop :crap: :crap: :crap:

dan

[Sandy]

First, your friends are new to cycling, so they know nothing about fit. They would have to rely upon the person who sold your friend the bike, or get fitted, or rely upon someone like you for help. But once they went to the shop, your friend would be overwhelmed by what the salesperson says, since your friend really had no clue about a proper fitting bike, even though you mentioned a few pointers.

You should be upset for two reasons:

1. You recommended a shop to your friend that gave her a poorly fitting bike.
2. Much more importantly, your friend, new to cycling, has a poorly fitting bike, which might impede her enjoyment to cycling and perhaps even cause her to stop cycling, which, as a cyclist, I am sure that you would not want to occur.

Your friend is happy on the bike for probably two reasons-

1. It is a new bike and she is new to the wonderful sport of cycling.
2. She doesn't have a clue as to what fits and what doesn't.

I would tell her exactly what you said here, that the bike does not fit, and both you and her go back to the shop and get her a properly fitting bike. I would do that immediately, before she might find cycling not so enjoyable. She will find a bike that fits much better than her present bike, and will thank you for being the catalyst for the change.

So, Sandy Says: TAKE HER AND THE BIKE BACK IMMEDIATELY!

[William]

Ditto to what the super smart Serotta Shimano Sandy has said. Take your friend and the bike back to the shop.

William

[Kevin]

Ditto.

Kevin

[BumbleBeeDave]

Don’t let her ride it any more. Sit her down and explain why it does not fit and what the long range results will be. Also see my PM.

BBDave

[Spectrum Bob]

A good friend will tell it like it is.
Well said Sand Man!

Spectrum Bob

[Big Dan]

Heartbreakers................. :(

[Sandy]

Spectrums are Super Slow!!!! :) :D

Supersonic Speedy Serotta Sandy

[tch]

This is a more difficult issue than some of us realize. While all MY instincts scream for you to grab your friend by the scruff of the neck and march her back to the store, I recommend you think about a few things first.
A) most of us own Serottas and participate on this board because things like equipment matter -- what it is, how it works, how it fits. Not everyone is like this. I have a friend who loves and plays tennis -- with a 10 year old standard-size raquet. He skis on 203cm pencil skis. He is good at both sports -- good enough to beat me in tennis 90% of the time. He knows about modern equipment -- but he just doesn't care. He enjoys the activity regardless of the equipment.
That is just ONE potential issue. Others:
B) if you insist that the bike fits, what will your friend do? Will she take it back and insist that the shop fit her right? Or will she "think about it" and ultimately do nothing. If this is the case, one thing that might happen is that she will continue to chew on it farther down the road until in a few months she is unhappy -- but then it will be too late. Then it will be your fault for making her obsess about something she was "happy" with before you opened your mouth.
C) if she does take it back, it's quite likely that in her psychology, you will be responsible for everything that follows, because you convinced her to return her bike she "loves". Now, if the 2nd bike isn't perfect...or as "fancy"...or as light...or as pretty... it will be YOUR fault. Do you want this pressure?

I'm not saying that you shouldn't approach your friend. But I am saying you should think about what kind of person she is and the possible outcome. Sometimes, people just have to learn the hard way -- themselves through experience. This can be painful to watch. But at least they make the decision to learn or not and to act or not. And, if they are unhappy or frustrated this way, at least they can't shunt some of the responsibility for learning it onto others.

In case you can't figure it out, I've been in your position myself. There is not an easy answer. But you GOTTA know your friend and be thinking about ALL the possible outcomes. Best of luck.

[Spectrum Bob]

Sandy, are you trying to tell me something?

Be careful I might have to sick the Road Rocket on you!

[dave thompson]

Seat slammed full forward on the seat rails.....short stem....lots of spacers...It may be a bad fit but it also sounds like a bike fit for a newbie, having close cockpit and upright position, with room to grow as the rider gains fit and experience.

[dirtdigger88]

Seat slammed full forward on the seat rails.....short stem....lots of spacers...It may be a bad fit but it also sounds like a bike fit for a newbie, having close cockpit and upright position, with room to grow as the rider gains fit and experience.

you have a point there-

I would take a real look and ask can this frame work as you friend gains experience- they can move things around a bit- How does your friend honestly feel-do they feel about the bike- are they going to ride it- if they are- maybe you let it go- let them grow into the sport. Had someone put me in the position I am in now- they day I got my first road bike- I would have probably gone back to my MTB and never looked back- I glad things worked out different

Jason

[Ginger]

No Dave. I don't agree.


It sounds like a half *** job getting a woman on a man's road bike.


I know I've been there. When I was new to riding, that's exactly the bike they put me on.

I can tell you that the bike will handle crappy and could in fact be dangerous especially to a new rider. I had been riding mtbs a while before I got a "road bike" so I thought they were supposed to handle that way. They aren't.

Sure, I was "happy" because I thought that because the LBS said I should be on that bike, I should be on that bike as goofy as the setup was...I'm lucky I didn't die on some of the descents I took it on, the only thing that saved me often was my mtb handling skills.

I assume this lady doesn't have those.

And certainly make sure she doesn't think that it's "supposed to hurt" to sit on a road bike. I know women who had that stuck in their head...it's not supposed to hurt to ride a road bike unless you're on one that's causing you damage to soft tissue that you don't need to be damaged.
Make sure she's not rolling forward on soft tissue because of how she's sitting on the bike...you might not be comfortable talking to her about it, but you can ask her boyfriend/husband if she's complaining about having pain/chafing/bruisng "up front". She shouldn't have that if the bike fits and she's sitting on it correctly.

And you know...actually, if she thinks you know more about bikes than she does and you ask her if she notices any of that, she'll probably tell you in very careful terms if she is having those issues.

Get that bike back to the shop ASAP...I know most shops once you walk out the door the bike is yours, but in this case, if the bike is fit poorly (and it is their fault if it is) you might talk them in to an exchange.

[dave thompson]

Ginger:

I understand what you're saying, but you came from a biking background into road biking and your experiences and skills were much more advanced from the get-go. This 'newbie' woman did not. My wife went through the same machinations when she bought her first bike, a Terry. She said would never be able to 'ride like the racers', low and stretched out. So she diddled around for a year or so, quite happy. But as time and miles wore on, I bought her a longer stem, less padded seat and moved things around. Several years ago she announced that she wanted a 'better' bike so I bought a Calfee frame and built it up to what she wanted. Even then it had a closer and more vertical cockpit than was 'proper' but she insisted that's what she wanted. Fast forward to today and her Calfee looks like it's 'supposed' too with a somewhat long stem at a relatively shallow angle and saddle with a nice amount of setback. next week she's riding the Seattle-to-Portland ride, 206 miles in 2 days. Progress.

Often people, like my wife, have pre-conceived notions of what is good and it takes an bit of time for them to discover that best way is different than what they thought. Maybe this woman told the bike shop that she couldn't 'ride like the racers' and the shop fitted her to her comfort level. With room to grow.

[BURCH]

Can she even stand over the bike? If she can, then I would be a little amazed. With the seat that low...I would think that she couldn't even standover it properly.


3 things I think:
Here could be a scenerio...Say this place does not carry a big inventory? Maybe they told your friend they would have to order her a bike that would fit perfectly...or she could walk out the door now with a bike that would not be as great a fit? Lust can cause bad decision making....

Or you could reverse that and maybe the bike shop wanted to get rid of the bike and tried to make it fit her.

Or somebody dropped the ball and is an idiot at fittings.

Sorry to hear that this happened no matter the reason....

[darylb]

Seat slammed full forward on the seat rails.....short stem....lots of spacers...It may be a bad fit but it also sounds like a bike fit for a newbie, having close cockpit and upright position, with room to grow as the rider gains fit and experience.


This is kind of what I was thinking. The way the bike was described sounds like a less than racing set up but doesnt necessarily mean the bike is the wrong size. It might be but you cant look at the bike leaning against the wall and say its a bad fit.

[Smiley]

Guys and Gals , relax the body adapts to even the most piss poor fitting stock bikes . If every bike shop spent the time I and my fit bretherns do making bikes fit , we'll they for one would have to charge way more money and second they would put guys like me out of business . I just fit two very difficult Concours frames to a couple that have been biking for 10 years , Both of them have NEVER had their hands reach the brake hoods ...EVER . So lets not act like this occurance is all that new . They adapted , loved these poor fitting frames for over a freaking decade and only as a gift to one another for two new bikes did they seek me out for Serotta bikes . They had no idea how bad these bikes fit until I showed them the light . My thrill will be to see their reaction to riding bikes that finally fit well and they get maximum pleasure from riding efficiently . Such is life , do your homework and if ever in doubt , ask the Forumites on the Serotta forum :banana:

[Ginger]

Smiley....I understand moving things around, even on a custom bike as one becomes stronger/more flexible/more comfortable. I've dropped my Kirk's handlebars 20mm already this year.

However, I wasted a lot of time not being set up correctly on a road bike because I didn't know any better. I've also ridden that short of stem on a stock road bike....Considering Trek's other women specific offerings including, I beleive, a smaller size, there's no reason to send someone out on a bike like that. First bike or not. Uninformed bike shop geek or not.

What you pay an LBS for is time. Otherwise we all may as well mail order everything.

Evidently they spent time getting this bike to fit where it does. If they had started with a more appropriate bike, perhaps it would have taken them less time to get her comfortable on it.

That bike might fit her three points in space as it stands, there's no excuse for that short of stem.

[vandeda]

Thanks for the replies everyone! Well, I'm riding with them this Sunday, so I'll have a chance to give a peak and see if she has room to grow. And I'll have a chance to take some pictures, and maybe get some of your opinions. I don't want to freak her out and make her subconcious about it, at which point she may start disliking the bike just because of a few comments I made, but I also want her to start out right.

Personally me & her brother wanted her to tell the bike shop to order the men's and wsd geometries that they said would be right. But she didn't ... and I feel that since they had to order the mens 43 cm (sloping tt), they were going to make it fit because otherwise it would be a sunk cost for them, and selling really small frame sizes is tough, there aren't many really short people like me.

Thanks for your suggestions. Again, I'll take some pictures and get your opinion then .... I'm not fit expert, but something that seems grossly wrong does catch my eye. If it looks to be a bad fit ... then I'll break the news and try and convince her to go back to the shop with me and get it fixed!

You guys rock!
Dan

[Ginger]

Also pay attention if she complains about her saddle...that maybe she wants another one...especially on rides over 10 miles especially if the reason is "soft tissue damage" and pay attention to see if the handling on the bike is overly twitchy.

And I wouldn't post a single picture of her on this site without her express permission to do so. All you need is someone saying to her "Oh, I was surfing and saw a picture of you on your bike...why doesn't it fit?!" any avoidance of a touchy situation will be lost.

[vandeda]

I was thinking of cropping my face in ... then y'all can be like ... ummm .... dood .... forget the bike, there's something majorly wrong with you :D


And I wouldn't post a single picture of her on this site without her express permission to do so

But, that is a good suggestion, something that came to mind a little bit, and something that probably would have eaten at me more after having the pic available. Even good intentions can get lost very quickly ...

I'll keep my eye on the handling .... ummm ... decisions decisions. I'll be over their place tonight I think, so hopefully I'll have a few moments to the bike by myself so i can take a real close look, get some good pics, take some measurements, whatever.

Thanks again to those who've replied here & offline!
Dan

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . with Vandeda, I have to say I know this store and the manager and it surprises me no end that this happened. I don't think it would be out of line for Van-Man to talk with his friends and try to get some further feedback on why they fit her as they did.

This store is NOT huge, and they may indeed have had problems finding a bike from present stock to fit her. As far as I know most companies won't let a store "demo" a bike. If they don't have an WSD bike in stock and order one, then they are stuck with it if the customer doesn't like it. There is also the chance--though slim--that this customer said "I want a bike TODAY. Make one fit." knowing this manager, I have great doubts that he would deliberately allow a bad fitting to happen if he knew it was taking place.

I also think Dave T. may have a point. As she gets more flexible and more experienced, move the bars down and the saddle back. Of course, if that was the intention, they should have explained that to her.

BBDave

[Ginger]

Vandeda,

I feel strongly about this because my first road bike fit my three points in space the way it was set up, but my three points in space didn't line up with the bike designer's expected three points in space. So the balance and handling was compromised and I was seldom confident on the bike.

Your friend is very fortunate to have you looking out for her.

[RichMc]

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. I have been over it countless times when counciling people in the various sports businesses that I have been a part of. If she has noticable comfort or handling issues with the bike in the first couple of weeks then I would suggest that she take the bike back to the dealer and work with them. If she is still happy with the bike after a couple of weeks then let her be. There are lots more bikes and lots more adjustments later on if she gets deeper into the sport. If you try to act like the hero or the expert then you may run the risk of damaging whatever relationship you have with them at this point. It may end up causing undo friction between you, them and the bike shop. So just beware. My $0.02 worth.

[Kevan]

an inexpensive bike, an inexperienced rider, and a shop with a bike on sale?

Could it be that, for a new rider, the position we've come accustom to, both in terms of flexibility and saddle toughness, are exactly the issues she addressed to the shop? Maybe that bike would fit if she were more willing to assume the position, slide that saddle back a bit, and stretch the stem.

Does a shop owner extend the same level of service to a $600 purchase as they would a $6,000 one? I think not, which is unfortunate, but the economics apply. Were they pushing the floor model in order to move in newer/better models?

Also imagine being fitted not knowing what you already know. You would start second-guessing yourself, maybe resort to impressions you had of prior bikes, hoping to mimic what seemed to work best for you back when (hmm.. I always loved how that 3 speed rode). Was she listening to the shop or did she override their suggestions with what she "knew" she wanted? "Oh no, I'm leaning way too far forward, I need to be more upright."

Go back to the shop.

[vandeda]

Were they pushing the floor model in order to move in newer/better models?

Also imagine being fitted not knowing what you already know. You would start second-guessing yourself, maybe resort to impressions you had of prior bikes, hoping to mimic what seemed to work for you back when (hmm.. I always loved how that 3 speed rode). Was she listening to the shop or did she over ride their suggestions with what she "knew" she wanted? "Oh no, I'm leaning way too far forward, I need to be more unright."

Go back to the shop.

Kevan, nah ... it wasn't a floor model at all. They had to order the bike. They recommended this size, and had to order it for her. They weren't keen on the wsd models according to my friend and were pushing for the smallest men's frame.

You all have good points. My fear is largely comfort and poor handling. If the geometry is like my '88 Centurion, then it wouldn't matter much. That bike had a 65 mm stem on it when it was given to me (it now has a 90 mm stem, but because my new handlebar has a shorter reach). It works OK 'cause it's a really slow handling and very forgiving geometry, which has made it great for commuting. But the 1000 is the low end of Trek's "performance" road bikes, so if it's a faster handling geometry, with a super-short stem ... I worry a bit. And like Ginger, I don't want my bud to think that twitchy is normal. I've already told her that pain or any kind is not normal and a sign of fit problems.

Lets hope for the best! I'll let you know how she looks on the bike. Oh yeah, maybe I'll take it for a spin as we're almost identical in height and dimensions.

Thanks again for the valued opinions and thoughts!

BTW, I'm adding a new bike to my stable ... I'm going to get the bike below, but I'm going to get a springer fork mounted, and a wire basket for the rear. And for those in the capital region, Keith at Freeman's Bridge Sports has been great ... I don't know how much those guys really know about fit and bikes, but I've always gone in there knowing what I want so it hasn't mattered. But, in terms of personal level he's been great, and admitted when he didn't know the answer to one of my questions.

Dan

[vaxn8r]

Ginger:

I understand what you're saying, but you came from a biking background into road biking and your experiences and skills were much more advanced from the get-go. This 'newbie' woman did not. My wife went through the same machinations when she bought her first bike, a Terry. She said would never be able to 'ride like the racers', low and stretched out. So she diddled around for a year or so, quite happy. But as time and miles wore on, I bought her a longer stem, less padded seat and moved things around. Several years ago she announced that she wanted a 'better' bike so I bought a Calfee frame and built it up to what she wanted. Even then it had a closer and more vertical cockpit than was 'proper' but she insisted that's what she wanted. Fast forward to today and her Calfee looks like it's 'supposed' too with a somewhat long stem at a relatively shallow angle and saddle with a nice amount of setback. next week she's riding the Seattle-to-Portland ride, 206 miles in 2 days. Progress.

Often people, like my wife, have pre-conceived notions of what is good and it takes an bit of time for them to discover that best way is different than what they thought. Maybe this woman told the bike shop that she couldn't 'ride like the racers' and the shop fitted her to her comfort level. With room to grow.
Not being there...my opinion is worth little. But I think Dave is very likely correct. It's posible she fit on the bike as she is "supposed" to. But she doesn't like it that way now. Let her grow. I know certain dealers that set up females very upright and short, and tell them to come back after several hundred miles and they'll lengthen them out and drop them a bit. It is legit.

[Ti Designs]

It sounds like a half *** job getting a woman on a man's road bike.

A man's road bike - is this another gay vague thread??? I've given up on the whole men's/women's bike thing, it a gerneralization that just doesn't work. There are guys with short torsos and/or poor back flexability, there are women with longer torsos...

Here's my take on Trek's WSD (women's specific design). They get lots of complaints - "I have too much weight on my hands, I need my handlebars closer" kinda thing. So they answer that complaint by making the top tube shorter, but there's only so close they can pull the front wheel before it starts running into the rider's toes, so they crank the seat angle forward to make up the rest of the distance. Problem solved, right???

OK, here's how I explain weight on the handlebars while doing a fitting. Think about sitting in an office chair with your feet in front of you on the floor. If you lean forward you don't hit your face on your desk (I hope) because weight transfer is to the floor via your feet. If you put your feet under you, WHAM! face meets desk. Same thing happens on the bike, if your pedals are out in front of you, your upper body weight is supported by the pedals, if not it's supported by you bars. It's all about saddle to pedal relationship first, and it's all about the setback.

Now look at the sweeping generalizations made about women (as related to cycling) and women's bikes. "women have longer legs and shorter upper bodies" - doesn't that imply longer femurs as well? Shouldn't that mean more setback and slacker seat angles?? And what's with women's geometry only going up to 54cm???

[scrooge]

Not trying to pull things in a drastically different direction, but I'm curious about this 43cm bike. Does it have 700c wheels (it appears to judging from Trek's website, but i could be wrong)? Wouldn't that do whacky things to the design/handling (perhaps a rhetorical question)? Wouldn't an advantage of a WSD be the 650 wheels? Pardon me if that's a stupid and/or off topic comment.

[vandeda]

When my friend was in the drops, the bike seemed real squirrely. Even her novice husband noticed how squirrely the bike seemed. Anyway, here's a few pics of the setup ... I'm not sure if she's gonna stretch out that much ... what do you experienced folks think?

And Scrooge, yes, the XS 43 cm mens has 700c rims, whereas the WSD has 650c rims ... the guy at the bike shop actually said "that means you'll go slower on the womens because the tires are smaller diameter" ... errrrr .... they do make chainrings bigger than 53 teeth there

Thanks as always for any advice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dan

[Kevan]

I don't think any major harm exists. Eventually, the saddle will be pushed back, and the stem will be replaced, and all will be right in the world.

[Ginger]

Is the saddle tilted down? Hard to tell in the pictures.

[vaxn8r]

That's a set-back seat post. I've seen a lot of fellow forum members with their seats further forward than hers.

[vaxn8r]

I think she'll be fine. I also perdict she'll lengthen her stem and maybe even lower her bars once she gets comfortable riding a race bike. Give her 6-12 months.

[Ginger]

I think we'd have to *see* her on the bike to make any good predictions...

[vaxn8r]

I think we'd have to *see* her on the bike to make any good predictions...

Obviously. You're pessimistic. I'm optomistic.

That's an awfully short cockpit, so unless she has a really, really, really short torso with even shorter arms, she's going to be sitting very upright. That's fine for now. An objective look at the bike says there's plenty of room to stretch out as she learns.

[Ti Designs]

That's an awfully short cockpit, so unless she has a really, really, really short torso with even shorter arms, she's going to be sitting very upright. That's fine for now. An objective look at the bike says there's plenty of room to stretch out as she learns.

It's just that learning thing that's in question. I look at the pics of the bike set-up and just shake my head. The seat angle on that bike is way steep, that setback seatpost has all of 1cm of setback, and the saddle is angled down to effectivly negate any setback she gained from the seatpost. If found the spot that her hips are located on the saddle as she rides, and measure the horizontal distance to the pedal at 3:00, how much setback is there? I'm looking at that picture and thinking almost none. The front end set-up is a result of the saddle to pedal being a disaster. Given the lack of setback there's almost no way she can use her glutes, and no way she can transfer upper body weight anywhere 'cept the bars. That wobble she gets from peddaling down the road is a function of all of her weight falling into the bars which she uses to brace her position.

I do fittings for a living, I see things like this way too often. Lots of people will say "oh, they'll learn..." How? Who's going to teach them? The assumption that cycling knowledge falls from the sky is just plain wrong. They don't learn, they never get comfortable on a bike and they give up on cycling.

[vandeda]

Ti,

Sent 'ya a PM. Thanks everyone!

Dan

[Jeremy]

Hi Vandeda,

I obviously have no idea how bad the fit is of this bike for this person. However, a couple of things that you mention are explainable. How short is this woman? There is a finite limit to how short you can make a top tube with 700c wheels without making the bike dangerous to ride because of toe overlap. For many short people the choice is between a top tube length that is a little long and a short stem with 700c wheels or an "ideal" top tube length and longer stem , but with 650 wheels. It is pretty hard to find reasonable quality and price in a production road bike that also happens to use 650's. Not to mention the limited tire choices available. 60mm seems too short for most of us, but it is often the only way to achieve the proper "cockpit" dimension for very short riders. The "Fit Kit" fitting system recommends stems as short as 40mm for people with short torsos and arms.

One inch of spacers under the stem is not extreme at all. Alpha Q allows up to 4cm of spacers under the stem. Most modern frames have very short headtubes. Couple that with an integrated headset and it can be very difficult to achieve an acceptable bar height for some people. Options include spacers and stem angle. However, with a very short stem, stem angle does not produce alot of rise. This often leaves spacers as the only realistic way to achieve a desired bar height.

The saddle position that you describe seems the most problematic. Shortening the cockpit by moving the saddle forward is mostly ineffective, and for her it probably results in a poor knee to pedal spindle relationship. However, maybe they have a setback post on her bike. Perhaps a more reasonable position for her could be achieved by using a zero offset post and setting the knee over position properly.

Ultimately, if she loves her bike and rides it, that is the most important thing. Perhaps the fit is not as bad as it seems. You might be able to diplomatically offer to help her "dial in" the fit. The stem length and spacers do not seem inherently problematic to me. The only way to know for sure is to measure her torso and arms and see if her bike provides an acceptable "cockpit" length. You could also drop a plumb line from the front of her knee to see what the knee over position is like.

I understand your frustration and bad feelings, but maybe the fit is not as bad as it seems and perhaps it could be improved without making her feel bad about her bike.

Jeremy

[palincss]

For many short people the choice is between a top tube length that is a little long and a short stem with 700c wheels or an "ideal" top tube length and longer stem , but with 650 wheels. It is pretty hard to find reasonable quality and price in a production road bike that also happens to use 650's. Not to mention the limited tire choices available. 60mm seems too short for most of us, but it is often the only way to achieve the proper "cockpit" dimension for very short riders.
Jeremy

I don't want to sound pedantic about this, but please describe those tires as 650C, or ISO 571, not "650". There's also a 650B, ISO 584, which is a very different tire indeed. There's plenty enough confusion about tires without adding any though an act of omission.

[e-RICHIE]

snipped:
I look at the pics of the bike set-up and just shake my head.


yeah.
this looks like it's set up for
someone with no cycling experience.
e-RICHIE©™®

[xcandrew]

Without more information (seeing the rider on the bike and getting feedback), I don't see what the big deal is. I don't think they sold her the wrong frame.

If she is short as you say and the seat height is in about the right place, the frame is not too big or too small height-wise. Size: fine.

The seat tube angle looks rather steep, but many small frames are like that. If you were to argue that the seat tube angle should be slacker, then obviously you should move the saddle back first before complaining. Seat tube angle - probably fine.

Saddle position: Adjustable, no harm if it is in the wrong place or at the wrong angle now.

Top tube length. Probably in the ballpark. "WSD" are supposed to be a bit shorter than standard, but that is pretty darn short already. Like some pointed out, there are limits to how short the top tube can get with 700c wheels considering toe overlap (the steep seat tube in small frames is usualy to address the toe overlap issue). Does "WSD" amounts to more than about 1 cm shorter top tube? You guys are arguing it both ways - saying that it's not a WSD (not short enough), but then complaining that the bars are too close the saddle.

Bar height. She's a beginner and likes them high. That's fine, can alway try it lower later. If she likes it as is, that makes it effectively more of a "WSD" bike anyway ("WSD" bike usually have taller head tubes).

Stem length. There's nothing wrong with a 60 mm stem on a small bike. Don't know if it's the right size for her, but I wouldn't be surprised if she wanted (i.e. requested) it that short as a beginner. Her preferences as a beginner are in a state of flux anyway, so I don't see why she can't start there.

I can see the arguments for the saddle setup being wrong, but nothing solid against the frame and nothing that will cost a lot of money to fix (if any). I see a frame and parts that are probably fine, but a saddle position set for a beginner's first impression preferences. Have her try a level saddle shoved back. That should fix the unsteady steering and maybe everything else...

[xcandrew]

And Scrooge, yes, the XS 43 cm mens has 700c rims, whereas the WSD has 650c rims ... the guy at the bike shop actually said "that means you'll go slower on the womens because the tires are smaller diameter" ... errrrr .... they do make chainrings bigger than 53 teeth there


He wasn't talking gearing. Bigger wheels do roll better than smaller wheels. Think 26" wheel with skinny tires vs. 700c. "29 inch" mountain bike vs. 26". 20" BMX vs. 26". Or high performance folding bike 20" folding bike vs. 700c. Skateboard wheel vs. any bike. Small vs. larger rubber roller ski wheels...

[Ti Designs]

Saddle position: Adjustable, no harm if it is in the wrong place or at the wrong angle now.


So it's not going to do any harm as long as she doesn't ride it...


To quote the title of a book by some guy wearing black socks, it's not about the bike. The bike is something she purchased, it's the same Trek 1000 that any other Trek dealer sells. People shop at certain bike shops for what they offer beyond the bike - I think Ginger made that point before. Trek cranks out a zillion bikes, they make no claims to fitting individual riders (at least no claims worth listening to). The fit of the bike is the job of the shop selling the bike. They could say "we make X dollars in this bike sale, let's pay some kid next to nothing to sell and fit the bike and maximize profits", or they can say "if we offer more within this bike, there will be future business". Most shops find themselves between these two points, and sell their fitting services. The problem we run into here is that most people think that fitting a bike is oh so simple. I try to explain as much as I can to people I do fittings on, I explain how it should work, where the pitfalls are, how injuries happen and the general mecahnics of cycling. It's not at all uncommon for people to say "I didn't know there was such a science to it".

The bottom line here is that without a good fit, any bike is a waste of money. My two best riders on on a Cannondale R500 and a Trek 1200 - not expensive bikes, but they fit well. So they get 99% of the performance of an Ottrott for the cost of one of those bikes plus a fitting and a little extra in changed parts. That's what good fitting service at a shop offers.

[xcandrew]

We don't know how the saddle ended up the way it is. For all we know, she could have positioned it that way herself after getting home. Maybe the bike shop set her up in an entirely normal position, and she didn't like it and requested that the bars be adjusted closer... the way it's set up now, no bike short of a kid's bike will have a shorter saddle to bar distance, so it's not likely the bike's size that's the problem. Maybe the bike shop tried to explain fit (that a less cramped position would feel right after a few rides, etc...) and explain that the seat should be back farther and she overruled them. After all vadeda said in the first post, "Try to give them a few pointers, and they followed none of them." Some people are stubborn that way. So maybe the shop gave in on the seat position while throwing in that she might want to experiment with moving it back after a few rides... and figured at least they got her on the right frame. Maybe they offered to readjust the fit in a month. This is all speculation, but it makes as more sense to me than the shop arriving at that seat position because they thought that was the best position for her.

I guess I come from a slightly different perspective because I've always counted on myself for final fit. I don't expect a bike shop to get the seat into its final position. If I don't have the measurements of a previous well fitting bike, for example when I got my mountain bike after only having road bikes previously, I'm going to need to tweak with the exact position myself for a couple of days and do it by feel. Of course a shop should provide some guidance, especially to beginners, but not everyone will accept it. I ran into the same thing with my SO and her mountain bike a couple of years ago. She stubbornly refused to listen to my advice on position until AFTER she had ridden around and experienced the downsides to her original set up.

[Ti Designs]

I guess I come from a slightly different perspective because I've always counted on myself for final fit. I don't expect a bike shop to get the seat into its final position. If I don't have the measurements of a previous well fitting bike, for example when I got my mountain bike after only having road bikes previously, I'm going to need to tweak with the exact position myself for a couple of days and do it by feel. Of course a shop should provide some guidance, especially to beginners, but not everyone will accept it.


Yeh, there are shades of grey here. On the one side there are people who think that where the fitter set them up is the exact and only position they should be in. On the flip side there are people who don't listen at all. The mountain bike example is a good one because it's also something as simple as bike fit (or at least it seems like it should be simple), yet is so different from fitting road bikes. Some of the best road bike fitters don't have a clue when it comes to setting up a mountain bike. I look at my first mountain bike set-up and just laugh at the idea of riding some of the stuff I ride today. It's not something that came to me in a few days, in fact I wasn't even close. When I got my Fat Chance I was set up by one of the guys in the shop who does a lot of technical riding. He explained to me why the bars are so high and so close, why the top tube is so long but the stem is kinda short... It opened my eyes to the fact that much of the stuff I learned about road bikes doesn't work on technical off road trails.

So, getting back to the fitting issue. I don't belive for a second that the fitter can put a rider in the perfect position - that takes feedback and the adaptation time. I explain which muscle groups should be used and how to make small changes in saddle position to balance usage. I also explain that with time the front end changes. I run a winter stem and a summer stem which is longer and lower, I've found it works very well, and the stems these days are so easy to change. But there is a knowledge base that can get you close - that's what a fitting is about. If you start off with a position that's a mile off, you either make radical changes (in which case it always feels like you're riding on the moon) or you make small changes and still never get to where you need to me.

In this case I'm guessing it was the bike shop's fault, or more to the point, the fault of some kid who just doesn't get bike fit. I have a side shot of her on the bike, and I know that most people purchasing entry level road bikes don't have lots of stems kicking around the house, so I'll make that one bold assumption. She loves the bike and for now she'll ride the bike, but she has already started to run into the limitations of that position. The key thing here is to do a little fitting, get her into a good starting position and have her tweek the position as she gains an understanding of the whole fit thing.

[cdmc]

I don't see anything that bad. I would be more worried about the saddle being tilted down and causing her to put to much weight on her hands than anything else. Once she gets the saddle tilt correct (and possibly a different saddle that she is comfortable on), she will probably feel comfortable with the saddle moved back slightly and 10-20mm more stem.

Don't forget that while 650c wheels eliminate toe overlap, they have many downsides. Try finding good tires. They do roll slower. You gearing is off. My sister is an avid rider, about 4000 miles a year. She had a 650c lemond and hated it, now rides a TI lemond in 700c. Look around and you will see that very few 650c bikes are being sold compared to 5-8 years ago.

[andy mac]

what was the outcome?!?!?!

[Argos]

Just since it popped up, and even though it is an older thread, regarding the first page of threads:

Someone said the bike was fit improperly. It sounds like the bike is fit properly, the frame is not fit right, but after a month of riding and proactive attention, she may push the seat back a little or even swap out the stem. Was it a set-back seatpost? I have no idea why they put those on the smallest size bikes...

interested in a follow-up.

[vandeda]

OK, the follow-up. Here's the dealio ... I moved the seat back for her, but never really got any quality feedback on how it felt as I don't think she knows what it's supposed to feel like yet (or at the time, which was over 2 months ago ... wholly crap batman, time flies).

Since then, I haven't had a chance to ride with her. So quite frankly, I have no idea how the bike feels. And quite frankly #2, I don't think she (or her husband) has ridden much at all since then either. Been focusing most of her time lately on either school or a marathon she's running in January. I would loooooooooooove to give a huge praise report on that the bike fits, feels and rides awesome, etc. But unfortunately, there's just no news at all :( .

Thanks to everyone who put the time in the write, give suggestions, thoughts and opinions. Also thanks to BBDave, Ginger & Ti Designs for taking their time out to write some PM's to answer some q's I had for them too!!!

Dan

[Argos]

Dan,

You moved the seat back. I know you do not have follow-up past that, but how much did you move it back, and based on what? Did you modify it's height also when you did that?

[andy mac]

he moved the seat back so it's easier for her to hang it in the garage.

[vandeda]

Dan,

You moved the seat back. I know you do not have follow-up past that, but how much did you move it back, and based on what? Did you modify it's height also when you did that?

started with KOP since she was well ahead of the pedals initially because the seat was slammed forwards. never had a chance to do any adjustments from there. maybe one of these days .... maybe not.

andy ... lets hope not ... i hate seeing perfectly good bikes sitting there collecting dust :(

Dan

[Needs Help]

...just like a pair of women's shoes.

[beerwillie]

A bike says alot about a person. My assumptions: This was a Serotta store (the bike fits) . She didn't do a size cycle fit (she did the fit on the bike she bought or the next larger size then she started on, working within the limitation of the bike.). She was not willing to buy a expensive bike (Trek 1000).
Looking at the picture. Starting from pedal, the saddle height is correct with proper bend in knee at 6:00.
The seat is forward on the seat rails because she has short femurs (knee over peadle at 3:00).
Handle bars are to low, thats why the seat is angled nose down (poor hip flexor angle, poor hamstring flexibility).
Went to larger size frame to gain more handle bar height (short stem for size of bike).
Handle bar appearing close to seat because of torso and arm length and the up sizing of bike size.
Replace the fork with longer streerer rasing the handle bar, the seat will level out. Put a zero offset seatpost on bike it won't look forward.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . but it raises an interesting question if Vandeda sees this. i wonder how his friend is doing now if she ended up really keeping the bike? It certainly sounded like a fitting nightmare.

BBD