Spoiler - Stage 9 - 2011 TdF

[tv_vt]

Jesus! :crap: What's with the Tour this year? Should they be in full body armor?

[1happygirl]

:crap:
My bad. 2011.
That was awful. Yikes.
Between the Tour and all the bad reports on people being hit here in the US, it makes you fearful to ride your bike.
Poor Team Sky. Just gets worse and worse.

[Uncle Jam's Army]

Hard to promote the sport with stuff like this happening this year.

[Jason E]

And Phil and Paul are all casual about it, "Cyclists are a tough lot" blah blah blah... That was ridiculous!

Those guys are lucky, they took a hard knock. THAT driver needs to get kicked out.

[tv_vt]

Man. I made this post before the car starts trying to knock off riders. My wife and I were watching on the computer on Eurosport - I was out of the room, then all of a sudden I hear her start screaming.

Awful. I hope Sky and Vacan sue that TV company.

[rice rocket]

Maybe Vroomen's words (expressed around the time the teams were whining about the Giro stages that weren't accessible by car) will finally be heard.

http://www.cervelo.com/en_us/news-blog/article/cycling-vehicles-the-solution-part-1/2761/

OK, so the problems with race vehicles should be clear from the yesterday's post. The solution is pretty simple: Get rid of most of them.

[jpw]

Tour de Rollerball.

French TV was unhappy with last year's viewing figures, but today was the not the answer.

[jpw]

And Phil and Paul are all casual about it, "Cyclists are a tough lot" blah blah blah... That was ridiculous!

Those guys are lucky, they took a hard knock. THAT driver needs to get kicked out.


The driver needs arresting and charging. Just because it's a closed road doesn't mean he should get away with such a reckless move. What if Fleche or Hoogi had been permanently disabled or even killed? Hoogi was lucky there wasn't a tree in his fall path.

[Fixed]

the 2 french riders were ok .... the car missed sanchez .. strange year
cheers

[jpw]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKuJCGV8m-w

Contador vs Karpets. The more one looks at the incident the clearer it becomes (at least to me) that Karpets certainly intended to floor Contador. What is going on out there this year?

[1happygirl]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKuJCGV8m-w

Contador vs Karpets. The more one looks at the incident the clearer it becomes (at least to me) that Karpets certainly intended to floor Contador. What is going on out there this year?

No 'roid rage? :rolleyes:

[jpw]

French TV employee wipes out Sky employee. Let battle commence. Whose side is ASO on?

[ultraman6970]

Today was just nutz, flecha got lucky because could have been run by the car. Stupid driver.

As for Vino, that was just sad, I bet vino will come back next year.

[pherms]

the amount of vehicles allowed on the course these days is absolutely ridiculous and unnecessary. how many more accidents before people and athletes react enough to force the UCI to make some changes?

[avalonracing]

If this keeps up the TdF will start picking up NASCAR fans.

[akelman]

Not to derail the discussion, but other than the accidents -- and yes, the outsized number of motorized vehicles on the course seems ridiculous at this point -- I wanted to say that Gilbert continues to impress. A place on the podium is too much to hope for, I fear, but he looks great in green.

[William]

Dude made a bad decision and tried to pass...and realized too late that there was a tree in the way. His choice was hit the tree, or try to squeeze through. He tried to squeeze...and hit the riders.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kb6NGxnUbDY

More narrow roads this years + lots of cars = lots of trouble.





William

[akelman]

More narrow roads this years + lots of cars = lots of trouble.

Absolutely right. And I have to admit, I'm loving the narrow roads and the uphill finishes. So for everything that's gone wrong this year, a lot has gone right as well.

[William]

Absolutely right. And I have to admit, I'm loving the narrow roads and the uphill finishes. So for everything that's gone wrong this year, a lot has gone right as well.

I like the narrow roads as well. Certainly makes things more interesting for the riders and the spectators.



William

[jpw]

His choice was hit the tree, or try to squeeze through.

...or, brake very hard or go in the ditch to his left.

[firerescuefin]

I have to disagree overall with this being a good TdF. Wouter's death in the Giro (and the overall Giro route) combined with the destruction derby feel of this week is not what I think of as Grand Tour racing. Something (maybe multiple things) systemically is wrong, whether it be stage setups or riders' mindsets, and it is starting to become a self fulfilling prophecy. Right now the herd is spooked. The break day could not come soon enough.

I want to see guys destroy each other on the slopes or in a long break...not see who the last person is to survive the carnage.

[rnhood]

I never understood why they can't start off with some mountain stages mixed in to break things up. This would help mitigate bunching issues since strategies among groups would have to change.

[echappist]

Dude made a bad decision and tried to pass...and realized too late that there was a tree in the way. His choice was hit the tree, or try to squeeze through. He tried to squeeze...and hit the riders.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kb6NGxnUbDY

More narrow roads this years + lots of cars = lots of trouble.





William

let's see, they were rolling at 30mph at most. If he slams on the break, he'll probably hit it at 20mph. Maybe a fireable offense for totaling a car

Instead he swerved and ran into the riders; definitely a fireable offensse, and I hope he gets sued for vehicular assault.

[MattTuck]

I have to disagree overall. Wouter's death in the Giro (and the overall Giro route) combined with the destruction derby feel of this week is not what I think of as Grand Tour racing. Something (maybe multiple things) systemically is wrong, whether it be stage setups or rider's mindsets, and it is starting to become a self fulfilling prophecy. I want to see guys destroy each other on the slopes or in a long break...not see who the last person is to survive the carnage.

Like so many issues, it is unlikely that there is a simple lever the organizers can pull to clear all this up.

Among the potential solutions:
Fewer cars on the road
More strict enforcement of rules
Better communication among riders


Other sports utilize team captains, that talk with the officials during the game. Some system like that, to get the peloton to have some sanity is a good idea.

[akelman]

I have to disagree overall. Wouter's death in the Giro (and the overall Giro route) combined with the destruction derby feel of this week is not what I think of as Grand Tour racing. Something (maybe multiple things) systemically is wrong, whether it be stage setups or riders' mindsets, and it is starting to become a self fulfilling prophecy. Right now the herd is spooked. The break day could not come soon enough.

I want to see guys destroy each other on the slopes or in a long break...not see who the last person is to survive the carnage.

That's entirely fair. But I have to say, I'm genuinely interested in this race in a way that I haven't been for some time. And not because of the carnage. I don't like crashes: in cycling or NASCAR. Still, it's fascinating to see a race unfold in which I truly don't have any clear sense of who's going to win. And I give the course design some credit for that. On the other hand, adding suspense isn't worth sacrificing rider safety to me, so if people who know more than I do* think that the narrow roads and uphill finishes make for more dangerous racing**, and that the riders can't adjust quickly to the new conditions***, I suppose the old way is the better way.

* If you can point me to someone who knows less than I do, that would be great. My self-esteem is really suffering here.

** I'm not sure I believe that there's necessarily a causal relationship here. There may be. But I think there are a lot of other variables at play. And without isolating those variables, it's really hard to know for sure what's causing the pile-ups. For example, it seems rainier to me than it has in some years. Am I imagining that? Or is it actually wetter? Anyway, I could go on and on. Wait, what? I already have? Oh.

*** I suspect, but certainly don't know, that the riders will adjust if these conditions turn out to be the new normal.

[akelman]

Oops, firerescuefin, it looks like you edited out your disagreement with me specifically. And then I went and disagreed (sort of) with you anyway. That makes me both long-winded and a jerk, doesn't it? Well played, me!

[firerescuefin]

Ari...I realized that I wasn't disagreeing with you and removed the quote. Sorry about that.

I agree that it is not a single issue.

DS's and team Captains (if that is what we are going to call it) have to call a better race and ride smarter. Bombing down descents on wet roads in Europe (especially if it's sprinkling and the oil is right on the surface) is insane. Had one 3 week patch 8 years ago (when living in Europe) where I fell hard 3 times in 10 days in the same conditions before I learned.

[akelman]

I fell hard 3 times in 10 days in the same conditions before I learned

I think we can all agree that it's amazing that these guys got knocked around the way they do and then get back on the bike and try (and often succeed) to finish the ride. Hard men, indeed.

[akelman]

I agree that it is not a single issue.

And just to be totally clear, I think that if rider safety is going to suffer, they should go back to racing on wide roads under sunny skies.

[jpw]

This year the TdF seems like a series of very hard one day classics rides in sequence. Last year some stages actually incorporated PR cobbles. This year not and yet the intensity is right up there with the five monuments.

I don't like the narrow roads that caused the car/ Fleche contact today and contributed to other crashes on earlier stages, and I'm convinced the intermediate sprint changes are at the behest of TV companies wanting more ratings 'action' during the several hours of daily broadcasting. OK the TdF was conceived by a newspaper a century ago, and ASO media owns it today, but the line has to be drawn somewhere preventing media interests coming before the safety of riders. If Fleche or Hoogi had been killed there might be personal and corporate manslaughter charges being handed out.

[indyrider]

let's see, they were rolling at 30mph at most. If he slams on the break, he'll probably hit it at 20mph. Maybe a fireable offense for totaling a car

Instead he swerved and ran into the riders; definitely a fireable offensse, and I hope he gets sued for vehicular assault.

Sued, really? Its what they signed up for my man. These are hard men and know what they were getting into when they started racing years ago. Im surprised more bike/vehicle collisions havent happened in the past few years with all the media scrambling for the best shot. In any instance Im glad they were ok, but its just part of the inherent risk

[firerescuefin]

Its what they signed up for my man.


Um....no it's not. They did not sign up for being hit by an incompetent/negligent driver on the race course. The driver of that car had disobeyed orders numerous times during the stage. What the increased collisions show us is that access to the route needs to be re-evaluated.

[indyrider]

Its part of the risk every time we put on our helmets and hop on the saddle. Yes it sucks, but it could happen at any time and as I said, they know its a very real possibility as they are sharing the road with a metal box

[firerescuefin]

Indy...you can't compare us out on a ride with general traffic with racers on a closed course with cars that receive detailed direction and choose to do their own thing. If Hooglund hits that tree...he is probably dead. There is a reason that car will no longer be covering the race. I guarantee you riders (and their represented Org) aren't looking at that tonight and saying "hey that's what we signed up for"

[echappist]

Indy...you can't compare us out on a ride with general traffic with racers on a closed course with cars that receive detailed direction and choose to do their own thing. If Hooglund hits that tree...he is probably dead. There is a reason that car will no longer be covering the race. I guarantee you riders (and their represented Org) aren't looking at that tonight and saying "hey that's what we signed up for"

+1. A race and riding on roads open to traffic are completely different.

[Polyglot]

The increase in traffic problems are related to a number of things. There has been an enormous increase in number of cars on the road network, whether in France or in North America. This increased number of cars, which are almost universally bigger than they were let's say a decade ago, is also covering a hugely increased number of miles/km. The result being that there is less room for bikes and more importantly fewer "clear" roads where races like the Tour can be run without major disruption of normal traffic. This means that the race must be shifted over to less well-traveled roads, which tend to be the ones that are less appealing to everyday drivers, which generally means that they are narrower and not as likely to be supplied with the newest road safety features.

It is not nice to see such accidents occur, but it is not as if there are an infinity f roads available to the race organizers, who must also ensure the bottom line of the race... otherwise none of us will be able to watch and if nobody watches, then the riders will not be able to get paid to race.

My own personal guess is that the driver of the car was not fully accustomed to driving that particular car and simply misjudged the the distances by a few centimeters. I know that I have done it before, both in a car, as well as on a bike (luckily without results that were quite as dramatic).

[jlwdm]

Still, it's fascinating to see a race unfold in which I truly don't have any clear sense of who's going to win. And I give the course design some credit for that.



I think it is clearer every day who is going to win. Contador and Schleck have survived the carnage and many hopefuls (but not really realistic winners are gone.

The course at this point has has had no impact on who will win other than carnage. The race doesn't start until the mountains.

Jeff

[572cv]

My own personal guess is that the driver of the car was not fully accustomed to driving that particular car and simply misjudged the the distances by a few centimeters.

The car was a Citroen C4, a frequently encountered car in France. It would surprise me if a regular French driver was unfamiliar with the car, or if the organizers would let an inexperienced driver in the tour. The driver had clearly committed to a pass, without looking ahead sufficiently. Those C4's have fabulous brakes and plenty of air bags. This driver started with a bad decision, and kept making bad decisions, apparently not being someone willing to fall on his sword (or mash into the tree) . I am interested to see the eventual denouement.

[rdparadise]

Poly:

Unfortunately, in this instance I disagree. Sure the road was narrow but why did he "have" to pass those riders at that point on a rather narrow road? There was no need for that and the upcoming impending large tree by the side of the road causes the driver to swerve into and almost kill two riders. I've never seen that before and frankly, it's just not okay. That driver needs to be accountable for the consequences of his action.

Ari, regarding the weather, it almost always seems as though the first week of the tour is rather wet. Typically that week of the tour is in the northern parts of France which seems to have weather similar to our Pacific Northwest during the early to mid-summer. When the tour goes into the mountains, whether it be the Pyrenees or the Alps, these are in the south of France so the weather is usually much warmer and dryer. Typically 90's degrees or more as the tour stages usually don't start before noon on any given day. The only caveat here is the high mountains can be hit with t-storms and hail in the mid afternoon and that has happened in past tours.

In 2004, I was at the tour and followed it with a bike touring company for two weeks through the Pyrenees and then the Alps before returning to Paris. One of the first days in the Pyrenees, we climbed up the Col De Aspen, descended and then I climbed halfway up the Tourmalet. During this second climb, it started to rain and then hail. The weather went from high 80's to probably 60's when the hail hit. I borrowed some newspapar to insulate myself as I was beginning to freeze.

At the same time, I was going up the Tourmalet, the peleton and climbers were ascending the Col De Aspen, which unfortunately was hit with similar conditions as it's only a few miles away. Armstrong put some distance on Eulrich during that climb because Jan hates the cold and started getting cold just as I was getting cold.

Once the climbers got to the Tourmalet, the sun returned and the skies cleared. It was night and day during that period.

Anyway, sorry for the long story.

Bob

[parris]

I don't know why but for a few stages the movie Rollerball with James Cahn(sp) comes to mind. I really can't believe how sketchy things seem to be this year. Is it possible that the driver of the car was paying attention to a supervisor on a radio and not where they were driving?

[learningtoride]

I read about it here on the forum and then went to see for myself. Description didnt do the intensity justice! It really was a see to believe it moment! Theyre right! Lucky nobody got killed!

[Bud_E]

On top of making the bonehead decision to pass at that moment it looks to me like the driver over-corrected for the tree. I think he could have just kept steering straight without hitting it or the riders.

[rice rocket]

http://static2.volkskrant.nl/static/photo/2011/18/4/1/20110710195714/media_xl_888781.jpg

:eek: That tan! :eek:














Oh, and the barbed wire injuries. :D

Kudos to him for finishing the stage AND taking the polka dot jersey!

[jpw]

http://static2.volkskrant.nl/static/photo/2011/18/4/1/20110710195714/media_xl_888781.jpg

and the barbed wire injuries. :D




....is that one of those Assos kevlar prototype inserts? :rolleyes:

[RacerJRP]

wow. that is so terrible. Amazing that he finished the stage.

..and the driver of the car deserves all penalties that come his way. discraceful.

[rice rocket]

Rumor is that it was a woman at the wheel... :bike:

[Norm Swift]

Rumor is that it was a woman at the wheel... :bike:


I know for a fact that it was not Abby Wambach.

[oldpotatoe]

Man. I made this post before the car starts trying to knock off riders. My wife and I were watching on the computer on Eurosport - I was out of the room, then all of a sudden I hear her start screaming.

Awful. I hope Sky and Vacan sue that TV company.

Not the US....

[thinpin]

http://static2.volkskrant.nl/static/photo/2011/18/4/1/20110710195714/media_xl_888781.jpg

:eek: That tan! :eek:














Oh, and the barbed wire injuries. :D

Kudos to him for finishing the stage AND taking the polka dot jersey!
Had that been me there would be a different type of "tan" in that view!

[1happygirl]

Front of the french sports pages:

[Fixed]

Um....no it's not. They did not sign up for being hit by an incompetent/negligent driver on the race course. The driver of that car had disobeyed orders numerous times during the stage. What the increased collisions show us is that access to the route needs to be re-evaluated.
+1
cheers

[Karin Kirk]

Interestingly, when Dave and I were watching the stage in the afternoon, I was just telling Dave about my day of driving a wheel car at a local road race. That was amazingly hard and took nonstop concentration for 3.5 hours. Between talking on the radio, navigating twisty mountain roads, trying not to kill anyone, and keeping track of everything going on all around you as fields are passing each other and chase groups are forming, falling apart and re-forming, it is a hard job. I can only imagine the intense focus needed to drive in a huge race like that. No thanks!

That said, there is no excuse for nailing those riders. Priority #1 is not to hit them, no matter what. It looks like the driver's very first instinct was to run into the riders and that is inexcusable. They clearly lacked awareness of what was going on around them and that is a deadly mistake.

With all the cars on the course, it is kind of amazing that doesn't happen more often. I agree that fewer cars would be a good thing. Can you imagine trying to race and focus with all that hubbub going on around you? That must take some serious getting used to.

It will be interesting to see how this resolves itself since in Europe the first reaction to accidents is not to sue everyone in sight.

[jvp]

looks like a good ~3' of clearance off that tree.
http://velonews.competitor.com/files/2011/07/Capture-660x497.jpg

[Karin Kirk]

Rumor is that it was a woman at the wheel... :bike:

And this is significant why?

[ultraman6970]

Woman and Asian for sure!

[ultraman6970]

He got lucky he did not busted his nuts in there. Probably he did tho.

....is that one of those Assos kevlar prototype inserts? :rolleyes:

[rice rocket]

And this is significant why?

For humor, that's why.

[Karin Kirk]

For humor, that's why.

Awesome. That was remarkably funny then.

[crownjewelwl]

Woman and Asian for sure!

this was even funnier then

[tv_vt]

Let's knock this off, please. I'm with Karin here. Frankly, that had to be a man driving, from my experience. Most women drivers I know are much more patient and much less prone to take a risk like making that stupid pass.

And whatever is meant by the asian comment is not appreciated. If a moderator is reading, I hope you will send those posters a warning. This is no place for any bigotry.

Back on topic, Hoogerland's shorts torn to shreds make me wince. That hurts just to look. Awful.

Not that it would matter at all to the riders, but ASO should've awarded Flecha and Hoogerland the same time as the other breakaway riders yesterday.

Kind of hard to enjoy the sporting aspect of the Tour this year when so much plain old bad luck (and injustice) is overwhelming it. Why don't they just let the riders draw straws next year to see who survives in to Week Two. Would be about as fair, and a lot less painful.

[thegunner]

Let's knock this off, please. I'm with Karin here. Frankly, that had to be a man driving, from my experience. Most women drivers I know are much more patient and much less prone to take a risk like making that stupid pass.

And whatever is meant by the asian comment is not appreciated. If a moderator is reading, I hope you will send those posters a warning. This is no place for any bigotry.

:p all said sarcastically i'm sure (you realize the poster is asian right?)

for the record, i am too... and i find that hilarious.

[flydhest]

Let's be respectful. One person's sense of humor may not match others. Sometimes it is not a close call.

Love--the moderators.

[dave thompson]

Let's be respectful. One person's sense of humor may not match others. Sometimes it is not a close call.

Love--the moderators.
Yes we do...love the moderators! :)

[Fixed]

Despite the nature of the accident and his injuries, Hoogerland and his Vacansoleil team have confirmed that they will not take legal action against the driver or the Tour de France.

"They have apologized and we’ve accepted their apology. We’re not looking for a scapegoat. They went too far and they know that,” team manager Daan Luijkx said according to De Telegraaf.
cheers

[akelman]

"They have apologized and we’ve accepted their apology. We’re not looking for a scapegoat. They went too far and they know that,” team manager Daan Luijkx said according to De Telegraaf.

What a wonderfully sane way of handling an insane situation.

[Polyglot]

Not that it would matter at all to the riders, but ASO should've awarded Flecha and Hoogerland the same time as the other breakaway riders yesterday.

I agree that this would have been the right thing to do.

[Onno]

What a wonderfully sane way of handling an insane situation.

Yes, it is a sane way of handling the issue--impressive for its being so forgiving. On the other hand, a lawsuit could well have the effect of reducing the number of vehicles on the road during the race, and making the race somewhat safer. A single lawsuit (whether successful or not) would probably make the organizers of the race a little more careful about how many vehicles it lets in the race (seems like too many now), make organizations that put cars in the race more careful about who drives them, and drivers more careful because of potential consequences. I'm not saying that all lawsuits are good--just saying that lawsuits are not all bad either, and I actually think a lawsuit here could be beneficial not just for the injured riders, but for other racers as well.

No, I'm not a lawyer.

[bambam]

Seems to me, most if not all, of the TV cameras are on motorcycles or helicoptors. What is the need for a TV car?

The crash before that was very disturbing as well. I guess we will never know what happened there but only one of those rock post had a cushion on it.

Looking at that crash I'm assuming someone dropped a wheel in the inside grate at some point. from the helicoptor you could see a bike with the front wheel and fork ripped off, a tacoed wheel next to the man on the road and one mechanic carrying a bike with only one fork blade. Heck, Saw Z comming out of the woods and don't know where his bike was.