OT – Great launch, yet a little sad program is ending ….

[RPS]

after 30 years without a clear replacement plan. I know costs we can’t afford is a major factor, but for first time in my adult life it feels like we will soon be out of the space business.

Just doesn't feel right. :(

[FlashUNC]

The cost is a red herring in my mind. Just a shame all around.

[avalonracing]

Astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson was on NPR yesterday. He said that NASA costs each American .4 of one cent on their annual tax bill.

Considering how mankind has benefited from NASA I think we can to better than that.

[christian]

I think NASA is woefully underfunded, but I also think the benefits of manned spaceflight are overstated. If the object is scientific inquiry and discovery, the money is better spent on unmanned probes.

[MattTuck]

I think NASA is woefully underfunded, but I also think the benefits of manned spaceflight are overstated. If the object is scientific inquiry and discovery, the money is better spent on unmanned probes.

Agreed.

[Louis]

I don't think Americans care about space or science. Or certainly not as much as they used to. I read a few days ago that they were proposing to kill the next generation space telescope (the Webb).

Who needs science, when you have Intelligent Design to explain it all?

[christian]

I read a few days ago that they were proposing to kill the next generation space telescope (the Webb). The full house appropriations committee will vote on this next week, so if your congressman serves on the appropriations committee, you should write/call/email.

[sg8357]

I think NASA is woefully underfunded, but I also think the benefits of manned spaceflight are overstated. If the object is scientific inquiry and discovery, the money is better spent on unmanned probes.

When log canoes were first introduced, not many cro-magnons saw the point.
Float down the coast a couple miles?, not worth the time to build 'em,
I can walk down the coast.

Here is to the memory of five fine ships.

[RPS]

Let’s try to keep politics (and religion) out of this thread if at all possible, please.


My disappointment goes well beyond cost issues (and expect a few others may feel similar). Are we now going to depend on other nations to get our astronauts into space and the space lab? Or are we just going to back slowly out of space and the leadership role we’ve held for so long?

Mostly I hate to think how much technology has advanced in the almost 40 years since the Shuttle program was approved and that these advances won’t be used to create a new “modern” space vehicle program to support space exploration.

Just think how much cars and bikes have changed in 30 to 40 years, and what that level of change could mean to a new space vehicle program.

[Louis]

Let’s try to keep politics (and religion) out of this thread if at all possible, please.

Sort of like having a discussion of Lance Armstrong's achievements without discussing PEDs.

[Dekonick]

OK - where do I start...

Tyvek...

polarized lenses

GPS

Telecommunications advances

Computer advances

Weather sats...

Just off of the top of my head...

We would not have a great many things we take for granted if it were not for $$ spent on the space program. Trickle down tech...

Dreams to reach the stars...

:crap:

[christian]

Let’s try to keep politics (and religion) out of this thread if at all possible, please.Really? There's no way to keep politics out of a discussion of NASA, or a program who's very existence is rooted in the cold war. Ok, here's my non political post about the shuttle program:

Oh, noes! I is so sad about the pretty white space buses.

[jblande]

Are we now going to depend on other nations to get our astronauts into space and the space lab?


would this be such a bad thing? isn't that how all science works at this point?

(edit): i meant to imply cooperation by laps across the world

[RPS]

Sort of like having a discussion of Lance Armstrong's achievements without discussing PEDs.
Exactly. ;)

There are people from both parties that support and object to space program, as well as supporters and objectors from every religion. Why focus on these near-insignificant angles when “space” is so much more? :beer:

[RPS]

would this be such a bad thing? isn't that how all science works at this point?
I didn't say it was necessarily a bad thing, just that it "feels" wrong to me.

I don't know why, but it's hard to picture having to depend on Russians to launch our astronauts.

[JeffS]

I didn't say it was necessarily a bad thing, just that it "feels" wrong to me.

I don't know why, but it's hard to picture having to depend on Russians to launch our astronauts.


I'm sure some corporation is ready to step up and provide our outsourced space needs. We will spend even more money, create tons of manufacturing jobs in indo-china and throw in a couple extra tax holidays for them to bring their money back from Switzerland. But hey, we'll have "smaller government".

[victoryfactory]

Contrary opinion:

I actually think it may be a good thing that this program has lost
it's funding as it was conceived in the '60's mindset and was still saddled right
up till the end with old thinking and old hardware

New ideas and priorities are needed which will naturally attract new investment
both public and private.

It's like trading in an old car that was made before power door locks.

Refresh-Renew_Retool-Rethink_Recalibrate

We will have a space program in the future.You can't keep
people from dreaming and exploring.

VF

[FlashUNC]

The problem, in my mind anyways, is that ever since Apollo the program has done nothing but regress. Rather than reaching further with our goals and ambitions, we've gradually pulled back.

In about 60 years time we went from the Wright Brothers to the Moon Landing. Just astounding. I just don't see that same commitment to further mankind's footprint in the solar system, much less the cosmos.

[avalonracing]

In about 60 years time we went from the Wright Brothers to the Moon Landing. Just astounding. I just don't see that same commitment to further mankind's footprint in the solar system, much less the cosmos.

Very good point.
And as Mr. Neil Degrasse Tyson pointed out, other than war, "The ISS is the biggest cooperative project that we've ever had between nations". How can that be a bad thing?

[MadRocketSci]

Glad it's finally over. Old technology. Chemical propulsion needs to be replaced.

We currently don't have the political will to sustain such a technology push.

If we're done with space, we're done expanding. I guess we could do stuff on or in the oceans, but I think it's much better done off the planet. Science? Meh...space isn't merely a giant laboratory. It's a place like any other place. Hard to get to but full of unimaginable possibilities. If we're done, it feels like we're sitting at the coast, looking out at the ocean, and saying "eh...F it..I'm going home."

But, we're not quite done yet. I think.

I'm going to state something that I don't think 99.9999% people would agree with, and may even be upset by. But, here goes: given the choice of having a general cure for cancer in all stages, or very low cost ($100/lb) access to low earth orbit (LEO), I would choose the latter. In the long run, humanity benefits more.

[Louis]

given the choice of having a general cure for cancer in all stages, or very low cost ($100/lb) access to low earth orbit (LEO), I would choose the latter.

While we're at it, how about world peace? ;)

[RPS]

Glad it's finally over. Old technology. Chemical propulsion needs to be replaced.

True, but it wouldn't be so bad if we had a "clear replacement plan" to pursue; which was my point. Even if that plan was to turn it over to private sources it would be better than not having a plan or sense of direction. Maybe there is a master plan and I'm just not aware of it.

Feels a little like selling your last bike without plans to buy or build a new one. In effect it's a little like accepting our riding days are coming to an end. :(

[bicycletricycle]

The launch was awesome in person, I am glad I drove down to see it :)

[johnnymossville]

Space isn't a priority when you've got important things like entitlements to pay for. Look for India and China to fill in for us in the next century though military objectives will keep us involved in space pretty much. Besides, unmanned seems like the way to go anyway. As far as information gathering capabilities, Robots and computers can do most of what humans can do already anyway, and more in some instances. It's just not as glamorous.

The Space Shuttle's last flight wouldn't be such a downer if NASA had a well defined longterm objective and plan for the future rather than just treading water.

[MadRocketSci]

While we're at it, how about world peace? ;)

That's #2. easy tech solution - lobotomies for everyone.... ;)

[gasman]

I just got back from the launch and was really impressed-a lot of power and technology. Really loud from 3 miles away.
In terms of the future of NASA I spend yesterday at a large conference put on by NASA for college undergrads and grad students. There a lot of really bright kids out there who are very interested in spceflight.
most of the attendees were engineer types who think mainly about unmanned missions and I tend to agree with them. Sending a manned mission to Mars would expose them to significant radiation risk which will increase there risk of cancer. Then you have the problem of having fuel to get them back. It's all beyond what we can do currently.
NASA is still very active with the Hubble, probes circling Mercury,mapping the Moon, a Mars probe that is on it's way -it's just that most people aren't aware of these missions. Too bad because some good science is coming out of these efforts.
Call your Congressman-they do listen even if they don't agree.

[MadRocketSci]

True, but it wouldn't be so bad if we had a "clear replacement plan" to pursue; which was my point. Even if that plan was to turn it over to private sources it would be better than not having a plan or sense of direction. Maybe there is a master plan and I'm just not aware of it.

Feels a little like selling your last bike without plans to buy or build a new one. In effect it's a little like accepting our riding days are coming to an end. :(

The plan now is a Senate designed shuttle stack derived HLV, carrying the Orion/MCV capsule for deep ex. Scheduled for 2016 or so. Musk et al for LEO. Still chemical propulsion all the way...

[MadRocketSci]

Space isn't a priority when you've got important things like entitlements to pay for. Look for India and China to fill in for us in the next century though military objectives will keep us involved in space pretty much. Besides, unmanned seems like the way to go anyway. As far as information gathering capabilities, Robots and computers can do most of what humans can do already anyway, and more in some instances. It's just not as glamorous.

The Space Shuttle's last flight wouldn't be such a downer if NASA had a well defined longterm objective and plan for the future rather than just treading water.

F*ck the science. Like sending Lewis and Clark just for the plant and animal specimens. How we gonna live there?

[avalonracing]

I'm going to state something that I don't think 99.9999% people would agree with, and may even be upset by. But, here goes: given the choice of having a general cure for cancer in all stages, or very low cost ($100/lb) access to low earth orbit (LEO), I would choose the latter.

Sure some people would... Until their child, spouse or parent gets cancer.

That said, I would not be surprised if things with learn through space exploration cures or prevents many things.

[MadRocketSci]

I just got back from the launch and was really impressed-a lot of power and technology. Really loud from 3 miles away.
In terms of the future of NASA I spend yesterday at a large conference put on by NASA for college undergrads and grad students. There a lot of really bright kids out there who are very interested in spceflight.
most of the attendees were engineer types who think mainly about unmanned missions and I tend to agree with them. Sending a manned mission to Mars would expose them to significant radiation risk which will increase there risk of cancer. Then you have the problem of having fuel to get them back. It's all beyond what we can do currently.
NASA is still very active with the Hubble, probes circling Mercury,mapping the Moon, a Mars probe that is on it's way -it's just that most people aren't aware of these missions. Too bad because some good science is coming out of these efforts.
Call your Congressman-they do listen even if they don't agree.

OK here comes rant #2. When the F did we get to be so chicken sh*t about exploration? Does anyone remember a couple hundred years ago how risky it was to get on a boat to come to this part of the world? Now we have to have 99.999% safety for our astronauts. I would personally and happily go with 80%, and if I blow into a million pieces I hope someone will figure out how to improve the vehicle. Now we have the LAS (launch abort system) for Orion, which adds all kinds of weight to the vehicle, yet we don't have ejection seats in all new cars (and a bridge sensor). ***? We would not be here if people weren't willing to take large risks. Now we're adding every freaking safety feature, adding weight (which exponentially increases cost), just so the 20 or so people who get to do this can have commercial FAA safety standards? We have people getting shot at all over the world, and had test pilots blowing up in the 50's...i'm sure we can find people to take a small risk to further the reach of humanity.

Ok, rant over. Sorry, it's an off friday. Please excuse the kinda swearing...

[Louis]

Now we have the LAS (launch abort system) for Orion, which adds all kinds of weight to the vehicle, yet we don't have ejection seats in all new cars (and a bridge sensor). ***?

Big, spectacular failures are bad press.

Joe Sixpack dying in a car accident is no big deal.

[drewski]

Exactly. ;)

There are people from both parties that support and object to space program, as well as supporters and objectors from every religion. Why focus on these near-insignificant angles when “space” is so much more? :beer:


"The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of star stuff."
— Carl Sagan

I refuse to believe that we will not be going into space in one form or another.
After all when we trash this planet beyond its ability to sustain itself, we are going to need to find another place to.

[Kirk007]

I just got back from the launch and was really impressed-a lot of power and technology. Really loud from 3 miles away.
In terms of the future of NASA I spend yesterday at a large conference put on by NASA for college undergrads and grad students. There a lot of really bright kids out there who are very interested in spceflight.
most of the attendees were engineer types who think mainly about unmanned missions and I tend to agree with them. Sending a manned mission to Mars would expose them to significant radiation risk which will increase there risk of cancer. Then you have the problem of having fuel to get them back. It's all beyond what we can do currently.
NASA is still very active with the Hubble, probes circling Mercury,mapping the Moon, a Mars probe that is on it's way -it's just that most people aren't aware of these missions. Too bad because some good science is coming out of these efforts.
Call your Congressman-they do listen even if they don't agree.

were you getting a jet pack for creampuff or your next adventure?

[gasman]

No jetpack and not doing the Creampuff.
Couldn't pass the opportunity to see the last launch of the Shuttle with a great seat.

[Fixed]

I think NASA is woefully underfunded, but I also think the benefits of manned spaceflight are overstated. If the object is scientific inquiry and discovery, the money is better spent on unmanned probes.
+ 1
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=1427311410609
cheers

[rwsaunders]

OK - where do I start...

Tyvek...

polarized lenses

GPS

Telecommunications advances

Computer advances

Weather sats...

Just off of the top of my head...

We would not have a great many things we take for granted if it were not for $$ spent on the space program. Trickle down tech...

Dreams to reach the stars...

:crap:

You failed to mention TANG.... :cool:

[1centaur]

If we ranked all budget expenditures from most crucial to least crucial in order to reduce the deficit projections sufficiently to stop our debt as % of GDP proceeding to the tipping point, the space program today would be FAR down the list. We're going to have a tough time paying for what we agree we must have without paying for what might be nice to have or what might someday produce benefits sufficient to justify it. If we get our budget to a sustainable level, which I doubt, we'll have reasons to explore space in a decade or two. It will still be there.

I grew up in the 60s and was living in England when Armstrong took one small step for man - our mother hauled us out of bed in the middle of the night to see it. It was kind of cool, and sort of fit the American century theme; its ethos helped shape my view of America before I moved back. But there's a time and a place, and this is not it.

[Psyclism]

You failed to mention TANG.... :cool:

And don't forget about Velcro!!

[eddief]

both parties are so busy bickering. no one, not the pres, not the sun tan man, not nancy, not no one is discussing a vision.

we can't even stop subsidizing oil companies and ethanol.

not in energy, not in education, not in space, not in infrastructure.

let's defund public television. then it will all be ok.

no we can't.

[wc1934]

AWESOME - if you watched the liftoff how could you not be thrilled - how much thrust is needed to get 4.5 million pounds off the ground -
got up to 12,000 miles per hour - 4 MILES PER SECOND - tell me that is not amazing!

[MadRocketSci]

If we ranked all budget expenditures from most crucial to least crucial in order to reduce the deficit projections sufficiently to stop our debt as % of GDP proceeding to the tipping point, the space program today would be FAR down the list. We're going to have a tough time paying for what we agree we must have without paying for what might be nice to have or what might someday produce benefits sufficient to justify it. If we get our budget to a sustainable level, which I doubt, we'll have reasons to explore space in a decade or two. It will still be there.

I grew up in the 60s and was living in England when Armstrong took one small step for man - our mother hauled us out of bed in the middle of the night to see it. It was kind of cool, and sort of fit the American century theme; its ethos helped shape my view of America before I moved back. But there's a time and a place, and this is not it.

or, put more simply, "Go China!"

[1happygirl]

The launch was awesome in person, I am glad I drove down to see it :)
Yeah! You made it.
Pictures?

You guys hit it. It's just like quotes attributed to Mark Twain. A lot has been quoted, but few actual.

Tang, Velcro---Nah private industry not NASA. ID not a killer, it's econ101. You guys hit it again.
Can we explore the ocean now and cure cancer with it?

[dekindy]

Yes, there is no doubt that NASA was good. Would it have been better or woraw if the money had been spent elsewhere? There is absolutely no way to access that. However, NASA is by no means a sacred cow. Everything cannot be a priority and we have to face facts that we can't, never could, or ever will afford all the things we have been spending money on. It is just not possible. We are just kidding ourselves if we think that we are a Superpower. The only thing we have that nobody else has is more nukes and the last time I looked using them was a bad thing. Let's downsize and start anew.

Someone joked about exploring the oceans. We better focus on that instead of outer space. Let's save the planet and then worry about space. Exactly where do you think we are going to go? Maybe the UFO's will save us?

[Dekonick]

One thing is certain: China is graduating over a million engineers a year... I believe the US is under 200,000 and about the same for Europe. They have the rare earth elements... they have the population... we had better get off of our arses and get back to it or we will be left in the dust.

:no:

[eddief]

amen

One thing is certain: China is graduating over a million engineers a year... I believe the US is under 200,000 and about the same for Europe. They have the rare earth elements... they have the population... we had better get off of our arses and get back to it or we will be left in the dust.

:no:

[rugbysecondrow]

One thing is certain: China is graduating over a million engineers a year... I believe the US is under 200,000 and about the same for Europe. They have the rare earth elements... they have the population... we had better get off of our arses and get back to it or we will be left in the dust.

:no:

Agreed partially. Not all engineers are equal, the Chinese are horrible innovators. They can copy but not create. They have the human capital and a government that will allow the exploitation of that capital. Having the numbers is one thing, being able to use them is another.

[Louis]

Not all engineers are equal, the Chinese are horrible innovators. They can copy but not create.

People said this about Japan for ages. Just ask Detroit about what the Japanese did to them.

I would think that the same thing could have been said about the US relative the the Brits in the 19th century. We probably copied everything they did too, but it didn't take long for us to surpass them in any number of ways.

[RPS]

I like the reference to using a water rocket. Shows thinking out of the box. :cool:

IMO scientists are often too theoretical to be realistic as to what can actually be accomplished, particularly when funds and other resources are limited. Engineers on the other hand are often too conservative and operate more comfortably in evolutionary rather than revolutionary design.

To move ahead in a reasonable manner we can afford we need scientists and engineers to work together somewhere in the middle – scientists pushing engineers and engineers keeping scientist grounded (no pun intended).


+ 1
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=1427311410609
cheers

[witcombusa]

People said this about Japan for ages. Just ask Detroit about what the Japanese did to them.
I would think that the same thing could have been said about the US relative the the Brits in the 19th century. We probably copied everything they did too, but it didn't take long for us to surpass them in any number of ways.


Detroit did it to themselves......long ago

[MadRocketSci]

Agreed partially. Not all engineers are equal, the Chinese are horrible innovators. They can copy but not create. They have the human capital and a government that will allow the exploitation of that capital. Having the numbers is one thing, being able to use them is another.

The thinking on why China became so backward in recent history was their policy of isolation. At one point they were a world power and at the head of exploration technology (under Zheng He). Then, an emperor died and his successor decided there was not much in the outside world that was worth seeing, everything great was in China. China then closed itself to the rest of the world and became a pushover when the British came a knockin.

Now they are determined to reverse that. They are copycats and manufacturers now but I wouldn't bet on that remaining the case indefinitely.

[jblande]

One thing is certain: China is graduating over a million engineers a year... I believe the US is under 200,000 and about the same for Europe. They have the rare earth elements... they have the population... we had better get off of our arses and get back to it or we will be left in the dust.

:no:


two words:
bay bridge

[rugbysecondrow]

The thinking on why China became so backward in recent history was their policy of isolation. At one point they were a world power and at the head of exploration technology (under Zheng He). Then, an emperor died and his successor decided there was not much in the outside world that was worth seeing, everything great was in China. China then closed itself to the rest of the world and became a pushover when the British came a knockin.

Now they are determined to reverse that. They are copycats and manufacturers now but I wouldn't bet on that remaining the case indefinitely.
I wouldn't bet on it either, but that is one hell of a ship to right. They can do it, no disagreement but I would also caution that for a county to be successful, not only do thy need to increase the number of engineers but they need to decrease the number in poverty. Basic systems like a postal service are a must, free communication. Ability coupled with knowledge is powerful, ability alone is useless.

This is not to say we ought not get our ???? together. I think what NASA offered was not just a space program but an example, a dream that prompted young men and women to explore science and engineering. A net benefit greater than any budget line item.

[MadRocketSci]

three words:
golden gate bridge

Do you mean the Bay Bridge?

[jblande]

Do you mean the Bay Bridge?


yes thank you
my careless error
i edited my post to reflect so much

[Seott-e]

We have more important this we need to fund right now, like the health care bill. Oh, have they read it yet ? I am so looking forward to hearing what is in it ! And yes the Russians will gladly take us to the international space station, aren’t they one of our best friends right now !?!?

[Dekonick]

Some interesting facts taken from a favorite website of mine...

http://gizmodo.com/5819573/one-month-of-military-spending-during-peacetime-is-more-than-nasas-entire-annual-budget

[onekgguy]

I stumbled upon this tonight and thought of this thread...

End of an era? (http://www.wimp.com/goingspace/)

Kevin g

[gasman]

Good video.
NASA continues explore the Solar system and our Earth. There are currently probes circling Mercury, Saturn and the Moon. There are multiple satellites circling the Earth looking at various layers of the atmosphere with an eye to trying to understand what changes are happening in the thin layer of air that makes life possible here. There are numerous missions planned for the future with the Webb telescope one of the big players to replace Hubble. NASA spinoffs have had an impact on countless areas of our life-everything from fireproof materials used in auto racing and for firefighters (duh) to tempurpedic to coatings for park benches that last 25 years in the elements and our GPS system.NASA has grants given to Universities in all 50 states for space research and to excite a new generation of engineers and scientists. These kids are bright and excited. I could go on and on.
But manned flight gets all the attention and maybe that's good as it keeps the public eye on what is out there. There have been 6 astronauts circling the Earth now for 10 years and they will continue hopefully for another 10 years.

NASA does all this and more with a that is .4% of the national budget.

I obviously am a big supporter.
I've attached a photo of the view I had of the last launch. I just hope we get more people uphill into space.