Wheel builder question(s)

[SoCalSteve]

Spoke with Reynolds yesterday about weight limits of their carbon wheels. They said that there are no weight limits, but if you replace the spokes on the non drive side with round, stronger spokes and laced the 2 cross as opposed to radial, then the rear wheel will be stronger and the chance of breaking spokes, much less.

Ok, on to my questions:

1.) Can this be done while leaving the drivevside spokes alone? Or, do they need to be de- tensioned and then re- tensioned again as part of the tensioning process of the non drive side?

2.) Can the nipples be reused? Those small internal nipples are hard to come by and very expensive! Can they be purchased in a hardware store for less money? If so, what are they called and what size are they?

As always, thank you all in advance for your knowledge and experience!

Steve

[e-RICHIE]

2.) Can the nipples be reused?


oh_my_god_atmo...

ps

arrange disorder

:o :D ;)
:o :D ;)
:o :D ;)

[Grant McLean]

2.) Can the nipples be reused? Those small internal nipples are hard to come by and very expensive! Can they be purchased in a hardware store for less money? If so, what are they called and what size are they?


the nipples are $4.50 for 10
is that expensive? You can order them on-line:

http://www.wheelbuilder.com/store/hexagonal-nipple.html

-g

[SoCalSteve]

the nipples are $4.50 for 10
is that expensive? You can order them on-line:

http://www.wheelbuilder.com/store/hexagonal-nipple.html

-g

Ooops! I read it as $4.50 a piece...

Yeah, not at all expensive.

So, does anyone have the answers to my other questions?

Thanks!

Steve

[e-RICHIE]

Ooops! I read it as $4.50 a piece...

Yeah, not at all expensive.

So, does anyone have the answers to my other questions?

Thanks!

Steve

when you do chores like this it's best to replace one spoke at a time atmo.

ps

arrange disorder

:D :D :D
:p :p :p
:rolleyes: :cool: ;)

[SoCalSteve]

when you do chores like this it's best to replace one spoke at a time atmo.

ps

arrange disorder

:D :D :D
:p :p :p
:rolleyes: :cool: ;)

ER,

If Im going from radial to 2 cross, dont I have to replace 2 spokes at a time?

Thanks!

[e-RICHIE]

ER,

If Im going from radial to 2 cross, dont I have to replace 2 spokes at a time?

Thanks!


personally i wouldn't spend large on fancy pre-builts and then deconstruct/reconstruct
them atmo. when you're done, they won't be what drew you to them in the first place.

ps

arrange disorder

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
:) :cool: :o
:D :D ;)

[SoCalSteve]

personally i wouldn't spend large on fancy pre-builts and then deconstruct/reconstruct
them atmo. when you're done, they won't be what drew you to them in the first place.

ps

arrange disorder

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
:) :cool: :o
:D :D ;)

With all due respect, going from radial to 2 cross will change the way I feel about them in the positive, not negative.

So, back to my original question...do you change 2 at a time then?

Thanks!

[Mark McM]

I'm not sure this plan to change the spokes really makes sense. Using thicker spokes and/or lacing 2X instead of radial won't decrease the chance of spoke breakage, and may in fact increase spoke breakage.

Spokes don't break in their middle sections - not even butted or bladed spokes. They break at the ends (elbows or threads) due to stress concentrations. And just about all spokes these days use 2.0 mm (round) diameter ends, so replacement spokes will probably be no thicker or stronger in the areas that break. Spokes with thinner center sections actually decrease the likelihood of breakage, because the spoke becomes overall more elastic, decreasing peak loads on the spokes.

Crossing spokes actually has little influence on spoke durability. Spokes only need to be crossed for two reasons - to transmit torque, and to reduce the likelihood of hub flange breakage. There is even an argument that radially spoking a rear wheel on the non-drive side can reduce spoke breakages, as explained in Sheldon Browns wheelbuilding (http://sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html) web page.

(And no, you can't change from 2X to radial 2 spokes at a time - the rim and hub spokes holes for a pair of 2X spokes don't line up with the spoke holes for radial spokes.)

[ultraman6970]

I know this is wrong but u can re use old spokes that look good but no way to use used nipples.

[SoCalSteve]

I'm not sure this plan to change the spokes really makes sense. Using thicker spokes and/or lacing 2X instead of radial won't decrease the chance of spoke breakage, and may in fact increase spoke breakage.

Spokes don't break in their middle sections - not even butted or bladed spokes. They break at the ends (elbows or threads) due to stress concentrations. And just about all spokes these days use 2.0 mm (round) diameter ends, so replacement spokes will probably be no thicker or stronger in the areas that break. Spokes with thinner center sections actually decrease the likelihood of breakage, because the spoke becomes overall more elastic, decreasing peak loads on the spokes.

Crossing spokes actually has little influence on spoke durability. Spokes only need to be crossed for two reasons - to transmit torque, and to reduce the likelihood of hub flange breakage. There is even an argument that radially spoking a rear wheel on the non-drive side can reduce spoke breakages, as explained in Sheldon Browns wheelbuilding (http://sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html) web page.

(And no, you can't change from 2X to radial 2 spokes at a time - the rim and hub spokes holes for a pair of 2X spokes don't line up with the spoke holes for radial spokes.)

Im just curious why the gentleman at Reynolds recommended this for me then...He had nothing to gain. But, if you are correct, then I am very happy as I dont have to go through the hassle of doing this.

Anyone elses thoughts?

[new roman]

The man at Reynolds might have said it just to get you off of the phone.

Who knows? Why mess with the DNA of a prebuilt with hardware store bin finds and reused bits just to make it into some reanimated wheel of the living dead?

You have heard some opinions, do what you want and see what happens.

If you want thrift, I'd ride them the way they are, and when they are toast, get some hand built wheels the way you want them.

[Joachim]

The man at Reynolds might have said it just to get you off of the phone.



I doubt this was the case, since bad customer service kills a company. Anyway, I would ride them the way they are, since there is no weight limit and they are pretty strong. Unless you weigh 500lbs Steve (sorry if I offended any 500lbs-ers out there, please no thread closure).

[SoCalSteve]

The man at Reynolds might have said it just to get you off of the phone.

Who knows? Why mess with the DNA of a prebuilt with hardware store bin finds and reused bits just to make it into some reanimated wheel of the living dead?

You have heard some opinions, do what you want and see what happens.

If you want thrift, I'd ride them the way they are, and when they are toast, get some hand built wheels the way you want them.

Ok, lets dissect this.

The man at Reynolds would have talked all day. I was the one who initiated getting off the phone.

I would never use anything but top notch parts that I would buy new from a store like wheelbuilder.com.

As for thrift, where anywhere did I say I wanted thrift? I misunderstood that the nipples were $.45 as opposed to $4.50. $4.50 a nipple sounded a little excessive to me.

And, why would they ever become toast? I can always have them re-spoked, replace the hubs or the actual rims. As for handbuilts, I have owned plenty of sets of handbuilt wheels and I truly like the Reynolds carbon wheels better.

Anything else?

[oliver1850]

I agree with what Mark McM said. There may be some gains to going 2x for torque transmission, but I don't see much practical reason to switch for durability, assuming the hub flange is plenty stout, and the failure point will always be the spoke. The straight gauge spokes might make the wheel a bit stiffer, but would likely be less durable, for the reasons Mark stated.

I would leave them alone. If you have a breakage problem, you can always try a different lacing pattern/spoke then.

If you were to relace them, I would detension the wheel a bit at a time, both sides. Then remove the spokes you want to change, relace, retension.

[new roman]

I'm not arguing, Mr Steve, it sounds like you're right on the money.

Thanks for the opportunity to spend time giving you our opinions on this!

I value others' opinions, too.

I think that those wheels will be plenty fast and durable for the path

s ahead.

[Ken Robb]

what is the warranty on the wheels? Won't the modifications that were proposed eliminate warranty coverage?

[SoCalSteve]

what is the warranty on the wheels? Won't the modifications that were proposed eliminate warranty coverage?

One set was bought from new and there probably is a warranty still. The other set was built up by Wheelbuilders.com and I am the 2nd owner. For the price I paid for them, I am not too concerned about warranties. I'd rather have something more reliable.

2 points, I wont do a thing and see what happens as peoples opinions in this thread make sense to me.

and secondly, wouldn't you think if the gentleman at Reynolds said to do it, that it wouldn't void the warranty?

[ergott]

What are the drive side spokes? I would consider heavier spokes on both sides. You could use DT Competitions, or Sapim Race. The right side of the wheel is the weakest because a cassette has to fit there. Stiffer spokes will be the best you can do with what you have.

If the left spokes are laced radial with the heads out I would definitely go 2 cross there. The flanges on those wheels are relatively narrow and the heads out lacing only makes things worse.

[Peter P.]

Changing the spoke crossing is not a good idea, in my opinion.

If you remove the spoke from the hub flange (I'm assuming they're aluminum shells) you'll see the spoke hole has deformed from the spoke's tension. This is a good thing because it provides a larger contact point for the spoke elbow and reduces any sharp edges.

According to Campy, the metal grain at that spoke hole has "taken a set". Changing the lacing pattern will introduce stress risers which can lead to cracked hub flanges. That's how Campy USA explained it to me decades ago when I tried to warranty a cracked rear Nuovo Record hub. They graciously replaced the hub even with my faux pas.

So I suggest you don't do it.

[ergott]

Radial heads out doesn't really leave any mark on the flange.