Red vs. Dura ace

[stickville]

I have a HSG with rival and I want to upgrade. I like the independent brake lever of the Sram, but the up shifting requires more force that with my Shimano shifters. Red has a weight advantage.

If you were going to upgrade, which would you choose?

[flydhest]

I wonder how long before someone references Mr. Schleck.

[David Kirk]

I have bikes with both and I prefer Red. I like the very solid and audible clicks and the way the levers fit my hands.

That said you can't lose either way.

dave

[AngryScientist]

it's all good, pro level stuff. whichever is more comfortable for your hands IMO.

me, i'd choose Record over those two every time, but like i said, it all works. :beer:

[TimmyB]

As mentioned, either one's nice stuff. I'd just try 'em out and see which you like more. I'm a sram guy myself.. I like the positive shifting and the double-tap system. I've had dura ace and liked that too, but I never liked the brake lever being a shift lever. The weight difference is pretty over stated IMHO. Unless you're racing p/1/2 it's not going to make a difference, except for bragging rights on the internet :rolleyes: .

Personally if I was going shimano I'd just wait until ultegra-i2 came out. It's supposed to cost around the same as regular DA.

Not sure what your budget is or if you just want the top of the line, but FWIW I've found the 2010 force to shift every bit as good as my red group. Like anything, YMMV.

[Gummee]

Its all a matter of feel. I don't like the feel of Shimano's levers and do like the feel of SRAM's levers. I haven't tried new Campy stuff.

You like the 'Slick' shifting? Shimano has the edge
You like Firm clicks? SRAM

They both work really well.

M

[christian]

Hi! Campy Chorus just called and reminds you he works well with Shimano wheels.

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

Campy Record, sorry, wasn't one of the choices, but, IMHO, the best.

[norcalbiker]

Campy Record, sorry, wasn't one of the choices, but, IMHO, the best.

What he said! :banana:

Anyways, I would go for RED between the two. I did ride them both and I like the feel on Red. I just don't like the Shimano brake lever for shifters.

[wooly]

it's all good, pro level stuff. whichever is more comfortable for your hands IMO.

me, i'd choose Record over those two every time, but like i said, it all works. :beer:

Like Mr. Angry said - feel of the levers was a big factor in me choosing dura ace.

[gearguywb]

Very personal. To me SRAM was the best all around group. Switched everything the wife and I have over about 18 months ago and have never looked back.

[jghall]

While not really an option mentioned, I'd keep what you have. Either that and if going with Red, I'd do "just" the shifters and crank(or another manufacturer's crank). The rest of the parts is not as great of an upgrade, imo.

[palincss]

No love for the Red cassette?

[norcalbiker]

No love for the Red cassette?

Probably one of the worst in the market.

[rice rocket]

People love to whine about the Red cassette because it's loud.

It shifts fine, wears forever, and is very light. Only thing it's not great for is cyclocross, because the space between the cogs is quite shallow, making it not great for mud clearing.

[EDS]

I have a HSG with rival and I want to upgrade. I like the independent brake lever of the Sram, but the up shifting requires more force that with my Shimano shifters. Red has a weight advantage.

If you were going to upgrade, which would you choose?

Red is obviously the vastly superior gruppo.

[Gummee]

People love to whine about the Red cassette because it's loud.

It shifts fine, wears forever, and is very light. Only thing it's not great for is cyclocross, because the space between the cogs is quite shallow, making it not great for mud clearing.
IDK how many miles the 'CL special' Red cassette I bought has on it, but it skips with my newer KMC chain that's on the Quattro Assi/Airborne. Doesn't skip on the Roubaix. Tells me its time to change the chain on the Roubaix!

So they definitely wear. It IS way light tho. :nod Not $200 (on sale at PBS) light tho. :nono

M

[PaulE]

IDK how many miles the 'CL special' Red cassette I bought has on it, but it skips with my newer KMC chain that's on the Quattro Assi/Airborne. Doesn't skip on the Roubaix. Tells me its time to change the chain on the Roubaix!

So they definitely wear. It IS way light tho. :nod Not $200 (on sale at PBS) light tho. :nono

M

Is your g-string screw on the back of the rear derailleur properly adjusted on both bikes? I gave up trying to make a Red cassette work with an Ultegra long cage rear derailleur, it would skip badly whenever I stood. But have no problem with the cassette using a Red derailleur. The missing tooth technology on the Red cassette requires a lot of chain wrap.

[Gummee]

Is your g-string screw on the back of the rear derailleur properly adjusted on both bikes? I gave up trying to make a Red cassette work with an Ultegra long cage rear derailleur, it would skip badly whenever I stood. But have no problem with the cassette using a Red derailleur. The missing tooth technology on the Red cassette requires a lot of chain wrap.
It works on all the other SRAM* and Shimano cassettes I throw in there, so I'm assuming *yeah, I know* it is.

M

*including a few skip-tooth 1070 cassettes

[LouDeeter]

"The missing tooth technology on the Red cassette requires a lot of chain wrap."

Well, I'm finally glad to get an answer on that mystery. I've been searching high and low in my garage for that missing tooth. I thought I had lost it when I installed the cassette............ :)

[oldpotatoe]

I have a HSG with rival and I want to upgrade. I like the independent brake lever of the Sram, but the up shifting requires more force that with my Shimano shifters. Red has a weight advantage.

If you were going to upgrade, which would you choose?

Judging by the number of warranty issues I have had with sram vs shimano, I think the decision would be easy for me..Campagnolo....no wait, shimano or sram...well, shimano by a lot. Better levers(reliability), far better crank/BB, better rear derailleur, cogset, chain, best FD shifting in existence.

DA...if ya don't want Campagnolo.

[dhoff]

If your bike really fits, then the switch has a real impact there. The reach will be different and though most cyclists just swap stems to make position adjustments, many of us Serotta riders have bikes that fit better than that. Yes, a shorter stem will put your hands in the same place on the hoods as you are in now with Sram, but it is not the same. So it all depends on how precise your fit is now and how flexible you are about that.

-d

[JeffS]

If your bike really fits, then the switch has a real impact there. The reach will be different and though most cyclists just swap stems to make position adjustments, many of us Serotta riders have bikes that fit better than that. Yes, a shorter stem will put your hands in the same place on the hoods as you are in now with Sram, but it is not the same. So it all depends on how precise your fit is now and how flexible you are about that.

-d

If your hands are in the same place, what's the issue? Yes, it will change your position in the drops, but that didn't seem to be what you were referencing.

[weiwentg]

it's all good, pro level stuff. whichever is more comfortable for your hands IMO.

me, i'd choose Record over those two every time, but like i said, it all works. :beer:

I actually have Record 10 on my main bike and I just put SRAM on my wife's bike. She tried out a set of the previous Shimano 10-speed levers and didn't like them. She likes SRAM more. In fact, I was really impressed by the ergonomics of the shifters - you can adjust the reach and they're canted outward. I'm not about to make the leap myself, but the shifting was also good.

[Pete Serotta]

I have been a CAMPY and SHIMANO fan before some here have been born,,,,,yes as said I am older than dirt,,,,,

A friend of mine name Richard Sachs and I helped named dirt.

Just recently SRAM has been recommended to me by some folks that I value as Professors on biking and not glitzy cyclist - they both recommended SRAM.]

It will be to put on the bike that Ben made me a present of for our long term friendship and my "challenges" over the past year :beer: He and I will drink plenty of RED after SEPT when I pass the DUKE testing.

Now another Professor Sir David Kirk recommends SRAM, so I will definitely have them in SEPT. :D


PETE

[oldpotatoe]

I have a HSG with rival and I want to upgrade. I like the independent brake lever of the Sram, but the up shifting requires more force that with my Shimano shifters. Red has a weight advantage.

If you were going to upgrade, which would you choose?

shimano. Better BB bearings, chainrings, chains, more reliable shifters.

I think it says something when 'some' get Red...but with a Force FD, shimano cogset and chain...

[CunegoFan]

SRAM is great once you replace the cassette, the chain, the bottom bracket, the chain rings, ... Of course by that time you are riding half a Shimano group anyway, so why not go all the way?

:)

[TAW]

Dura ace. Great stuff. In the shop we have bikes built with Red and Dura ace and the shimano stuff is easier to adjust properly and in my opinion more hassle free.

[oldguy00]

Its all in the shifters. Try both and pick the one that feels best. Although I currently have SRAM Force, I happen to like Dura Ace more for the better shifting (IMHO), both 7900 and 7800.
I've used Campy 10 & 11 as well, and while it is no doubt good as well, I always found that the shifting felt kind of sloppy compared to the others, just the way the shifters felt to me.

[forrestw]

Campagnolo, but if you really don't want that then Shimano.

ref SRAM redI have been a CAMPY and SHIMANO fan before some here have been born,,,,,yes as said I am older than dirt,,,,,

A friend of mine name Richard Sachs and I helped named dirt.

Just recently SRAM has been recommended to me by some folks that I value as Professors on biking and not glitzy cyclist - they both recommended SRAM.]
(snip)

Pete, you've been seduced by the dark side :-) (btw I only give RS 3 solar orbits seniority).

The guy at my LBS nearly sold me on outfitting my ride with SRAM, I considered it but having wanted Campy all my life and with a new Legend coming in from upstate NY, I was not convinced. His argument was that the SRAM mechanicals were simpler and therefore more repairable than the Campy group.

According to everything I've heard since. a. Red at least is fragile b. SRAM hasn't come through with the promised repair/rebuild parts so unless one cares to machine their own new bits, it's for all practical purposes throw-away when it busts.

The SRAM reliability problems may be over-blown but I've seen enough busted Shimano stuff while doing support of PMC and similar events that I bless my Record shifters every time I go out as they continue to perform reliably shift after shift. They're 9 years old, I'm the second owner and afaics they're gonna keep working that way until I decide mine need to go to 11 :-).

[Z3c]

If your hands are in the same place, what's the issue? Yes, it will change your position in the drops, but that didn't seem to be what you were referencing.

Shimano hoods are longer than Sram's thereby affecting reach..

[clavin]

I prefer the solid clicks of the SRAM, the Shimano feel has been getting too dead. You can also pull the shift paddle in and shift easily from the drop with SRAM but can't brake and shift like with Shimano, decisions decisions.

What abot new Ultegra Di2?

[JeffS]

Shimano hoods are longer than Sram's thereby affecting reach..

I get that... The comment I was replying to was along the lines of "most riders swap stems to compensate, but our bikes fit too well for that"

If you swap the stem, put the hoods back in the same place, then the geometry of that one hand position hasn't changed at all.

[dhoff]

If you swap the stem, put the hoods back in the same place, then the geometry of that one hand position hasn't changed at all.

Yes, this is true, but is this the only position that you ride in? My bikes were built for how I ride and fit is every bit as important riding on the tops and in the drops as it is on the hoods.

I know that to many people this is considered worthy of attention. But to those of us who hold fit to be important, it makes a difference. I like to ride, Long. And to be in the saddle for 4, 8, 10, 18++++ hours is not at all unusual. I find that subtle changes in fit actually impact my comfort and performance dramatically. On a 24 hour ride, position I am in while riding on the hoods is relavent for about 1/3 of the time. So, for my needs, switching groups to one that requires a stem change to put my hands in the same position just isn't an option.

Also this is a Serotta forum and the majority of new Serotta's, I believe are actually custom fit. For someone to invest in a frame to fit them just right and then compromise that fit for a group preference seems counterintuitive.

That is what I intended to communicate before. I apologize for not being clear.

[palincss]

So, in other words, for some folks who spend all their time with their hands on the brifter hoods, changing the stem to replicate their hand position is not a problem; but since you use that position only 1/3 of the time, the rest of the time using other parts of the handlebar, and moving the handlebar back or forward due to a stem change would alter the handlebar positions you use the majority of the time?

[Bob Loblaw]

Shimano.

SRAM's shift requires more force and the throw is longer. SRAM also requires a 1.1mm shifter cable, and said cables are somewhat of a PITA to replace compared to Shimano (or Campy)...that's why cables come pre-installed on new SRAM shifters. SRAM has also had some reliability issues with their shifters.

But IMO, the fatal flaw of SRAM is that if you're in your smallest gear and space out and try to shift to an easier gear, it will UPshift to a harder gear.

BL

[jerome]

Made in Japan not in China

[oldpotatoe]

Campagnolo, but if you really don't want that then Shimano.

ref SRAM red

Pete, you've been seduced by the dark side :-) (btw I only give RS 3 solar orbits seniority).

The guy at my LBS nearly sold me on outfitting my ride with SRAM, I considered it but having wanted Campy all my life and with a new Legend coming in from upstate NY, I was not convinced. His argument was that the SRAM mechanicals were simpler and therefore more repairable than the Campy group.

According to everything I've heard since. a. Red at least is fragile b. SRAM hasn't come through with the promised repair/rebuild parts so unless one cares to machine their own new bits, it's for all practical purposes throw-away when it busts.

The SRAM reliability problems may be over-blown but I've seen enough busted Shimano stuff while doing support of PMC and similar events that I bless my Record shifters every time I go out as they continue to perform reliably shift after shift. They're 9 years old, I'm the second owner and afaics they're gonna keep working that way until I decide mine need to go to 11 :-).

Sram offers no shifter internals, it's in the BIC lighter world, breaks throw it away(via warranty). If the LBS actually took a Campagnolo and sram lever apart, he would know the Campagnolo one is FAR simplier.

[Uncle Jam's Army]

I have Red on one bike and Di2 on another bike. The hood shape of Di2 is far and away a natural for my hand. The Red hoods feel like little, stubby nubs in my hands.

Front derailleur shifting is much better with Di2. Red front derailleur shifting with the titanium FD is god awful.

[oldpotatoe]

I have Red on one bike and Di2 on another bike. The hood shape of Di2 is far and away a natural for my hand. The Red hoods feel like little, stubby nubs in my hands.

Front derailleur shifting is much better with Di2. Red front derailleur shifting with the titanium FD is god awful.

Upgrade to 6700 front derauilleur....use 5mm der housing, get rid of the gore junque...

[mgd]

i'll say up front that my bikes mostly have mongrel campag components on them, so...

to me, though, the red stuff--and sram road components in general--work okay, but jeebus they look like garbage. red is really cheap looking. the rear mech, the brake calipers, the crankset, all very unrefined looking.

i've test ridden various sram road stuff, and i could live with the way it works no problem; it seemed more than ok to me. i kinda dig the weird double tap thing.

looking at it though, as bike jewelry, as opposed to disposable racing equipment or highly consumable off-road stuff, it just doesn't cut it.

shoot me; i'm shallow.

[mgd]

i'll say up front that my bikes mostly have mongrel campag components on them, so...

to me, though, the red stuff--and sram road components in general--work okay, but jeebus they look like garbage. red is really cheap looking. the rear mech, the brake calipers, the crankset, all very unrefined looking.

i've test ridden various sram road stuff, and i could live with the way it works no problem; it seemed more than ok to me. i kinda dig the weird double tap thing.

looking at it though, as bike jewelry, as opposed to disposable racing equipment or highly consumable off-road stuff, it just doesn't cut it.

shoot me; i'm shallow.

the red black-colored group looks better than the not-silver-enough one.

[FixedNotBroken]

People love to whine about the Red cassette because it's loud.

It shifts fine, wears forever, and is very light. Only thing it's not great for is cyclocross, because the space between the cogs is quite shallow, making it not great for mud clearing.

It hasn't been out long enough to wear forever :banana:

[dhoff]

So, in other words, for some folks who spend all their time with their hands on the brifter hoods, changing the stem to replicate their hand position is not a problem; but since you use that position only 1/3 of the time, the rest of the time using other parts of the handlebar, and moving the handlebar back or forward due to a stem change would alter the handlebar positions you use the majority of the time?

That is exactly what I am saying. If the only hand position you use is on the hoods, then the swapping of stems to compensate for the difference in position between Red and DA works just fine. If, however that is the only hand position you use, then you certainly do not need drop bars and I cannot imagine anyone actually riding that way for long.

I believe that I am not unusual in holding to the premise that Fit correlates to Performance.. I do know that this has been born out by test results in the past, but cannot cite any at this time. It is, of course a key premise for Serotta as a company. If one does hold to that premise, then, it would seem silly to compromise performance to experiment with a different group. I do know several competitive cyclists who found that their performance as measured in power output, time trial results and comfort increased dramatically through the making of small shifts in fit from what they had long thought was already perfect. The subtleties of fit are beyond my understanding. I have, however had the privileged of being fit by more than one master of this field.

I have no vested interest in other people's relationship to fit. As far as I am concerned you should all do what you think works best for you and enjoy the crap out of it. And I will see you on the road. I will be the guy with a grin stuck on his face and bugs in his teeth.