help me understand: you want jan to win why?

[Climb01742]

jan is an incredibly gifted rider, who until recently never learned to push himself away from the dinner table in the winter...who still insists on climbing on diesel power, when time after time it's been shown that lance can ride away from him as jan diesels on...who had a chance to join riis and csc, and get his butt kicked to a probable tour win, and chose to say "no thank you"...he is the robert falcon scott of the tour de france...does stubborn underachievement have a lure i'm missing?

[slowgoing]

If genetic freak LA hadn't been around, and Jan had won, what, an additional three or four or five tours, would you still be calling him a stubborn unachiever?

[fiamme red]

To beat Lance? Tired of the same outcome every year?

[Fixed]

I hear he's a nice guy.

[Climb01742]

If genetic freak LA hadn't been around, and Jan had won, what, an additional three or four or five tours, would you still be calling him a stubborn unachiever?

yes! he loses to lance, yet seems to refuse to change enough of his ways to beat lance. losing to lance isn't, by itself, a definition of underachievement. losing to lance, year after year, by making the same mistakes, by refusing to alter his deficiency in climbing to lance, by not changing coaches, by not shaking his team up, by not pursueing every avenue to make himself and his team better...that is what i'd call underachievement.

[jeffg]

If genetic freak LA hadn't been around, and Jan had won, what, an additional three or four or five tours, would you still be calling him a stubborn unachiever?

No, but there is a sense that it is not necessarily LA's physical gifts alone that have allowed him to beat Ullrich. Jan, at least if all the talk about his "natural ability" is to be believed, has been as much of an obstacle to winning a second TdF as LA.

I like Ullrich, but have to say I do not understand his career choice to head back to T-Mobile. Now there is a cat fight in the team with Klöden and Zabel dissing Ullrich in the press, Pevenage and Godefroot canot see eye to eye (imagine Johann not allowed in the team car), etc. Jan has split from his long-time girlfriend and the mother of his daughter and is now together with Tobias Steinhauser's sister. All this a few weeks before the Tour does not seem to be the best atmosphere for an "All-for-Jan" TdF.

Check out this article, which I find quite telling.

http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/8152.0.html

[Climb01742]

To beat Lance? Tired of the same outcome every year?

but whose fault is it that every year lance wins? that is lance's job, his mission in life, his obsession, if you will. i guess i don't feel as though jan wants to win as badly as lance does. as opposed to, say, tyler. tyler suffered like a dog to stay in the tour (and the giro that year.) i admire athletes who will go to the edge to win. i don't sense that jan would. i want a rider to win who wants it sooooooo badly. does jan want it badly enough?

[Climb01742]

No, but there is a sense that it is not necessarily LA's physical gifts alone that have allowed him to beat Ullrich. Jan, at least if all the talk about his "natural ability" is to be believed, has been as much of an obstacle to winning a second TdF as LA.

I like Ullrich, but have to say I do not understand his career choice to head back to T-Mobile. Now there is a cat fight in the team with Klöden and Zabel dissing Ullrich in the press, Pevenage and Godefroot canot see eye to eye (imagine Johann not allowed in the team car), etc. Jan has split from his long-time girlfriend and the mother of his daughter and is now together with Tobias Steinhauser's sister. All this a few weeks before the Tour does not seem to be the best atmosphere for an "All-for-Jan" TdF.

Check out this article, which I find quite telling.

http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/8152.0.html

there was also an interview i read with vino. he was asked if he had reconned the tour's big climbs. he said no, that it wasn't necessary. not necessary?!?!?! lance has upped the ante on what tour preparation takes. t-mobile as team seems unwilling to up their ante, too. it just doesn't seem like they want it enough, at least not as badly as lance does.

[William]

I believe I said I would like to see Jan more competitive. I'd like to see Lance take 7, but I would also like to see Jan live up to his potential (which we've seen flashes of) and give LA a run for it.

William

[DreaminJohn]

DISCLAIMER: I'm rooting for Lance.

I have to admit, I'm a bit surprised by the number of y'all pulling for Jan to win.

I'm not sure what Jan has done to "deserve" victory. He certainly seems to be a nice enough guy. He seems to be taking his training more seriously this year. But he HAS, IMO, added to the we-don't-need-anymore dysfunction on the team and their management struggles.

I'm wondering if it's just "anybody but Lance" syndrome rearing its head.

[fiamme red]

there was also an interview i read with vino. he was asked if he had reconned the tour's big climbs. he said no, that it wasn't necessary. not necessary?!?!?! lance has upped the ante on what tour preparation takes. t-mobile as team seems unwilling to up their ante, too. it just doesn't seem like they want it enough, at least not as badly as lance does.
Maybe Ullrich's mistake is trying to prepare in the same way that Lance does, i.e., peaking for the Tour, and not taking any other race before the Tour too seriously. Maybe he needs to do some serious racing before the Tour, unlike Lance, who seems to get fit by training alone.

Lance has been a bad influence on Jan.

[e-RICHIE]

on another forum i opined that...

"the tdf has turned into a media circus; it's the equivilant of
pro racing's cash cow. it's the sport's version of "reality tv"."

this is due, in part, to this "specialization "thang" we got
goin' on now. i like bicycle racing less now than i ever did.

regardless, i follow it because it's hard, even futile, not to.

hey - thanks for reading.

[fiamme red]

on another forum i opined that...

"the tdf has turned into a media circus; it's the equivilant of
pro racing's cash cow. it's the sport's version of "reality tv"."

this is due, in part, to this "specialization "thang" we got
goin' on now. i like bicycle racing less now than i ever did.

regardless, i follow it because it's hard, even futile, not to.

hey - thanks for reading.
Agree with you entirely. I don't care how many times Lance and his rivals scout out Pla-d'Adet. What I do care is that the best riders in the world should contest other great races.

I speak to people who watched the 1974 Worlds in Montreal, and they were thrilled to see all the biggest names in cycling there: Merckx, Thevenet, Moser, Martinez, van Springel, Poulidor, de Vlaeminck, Maertens, Basso, Petterson, Sercu, etc. They have cherished memories of that day.

Will the 2003 Worlds in Hamilton bring back such memories 30 years hence? I don't think so. And I don't remember a single Tour GC contestant being there. Not good for the future of the sport.

[Kevan]

but where else would he get as much "Ka-ching!"?

[dirtdigger88]

Sports has changed like it or not- doesnt matter what sport- It is all about the money now. You can moan all you want- but it aint getting any better- Hockey anyone? You cant sit back and wish for things to be the way they were- This is the age of specialization-

Go Lance!!!!!

Jason

[BumbleBeeDave]

Regardless of his athletic talent or his fortitude in coming back from cancer, based on what I have seen and read of him as a person in interviews and stories, he doesn't come across as very likeable. Of course that may not be the totally correct view of him--the media can often distort--but it is the only info I have on him and what I must make my decision based on. Brash. Somewhat arrogant. Just a bit too sure of himself. So competitive that you could never go for a club ride with him. The kind who would park in that handicapped-only spot if he felt he could get away with it.

Jan, on the other hand, almost invariably DOES come across to me in interviews and stories as a basically nice guy--the kind you get the feeling you would like to tip back a few brews with or go for a fun ride with. Again, maybe not a completely accurate picture, but nevertheless, it IS the way he comes across . . . the kind of guy just like me--who does his best but makes mistakes. Who tries to learn from them, but who sees there's a lot more to life than just riding. Who would never park in that handicapped spot because he just doesn't think that's the right thing to do.

Maybe I'm not the only one who feels that way.

BBDave

[slowgoing]

Yeah, what BBD said.

Who would you rather have a few drinks with, Mr. win at all cost, or a partying recreational drug user?

Remember, the question was what we wanted to see (who we wanted to win), not who we think wants to win the most or who has adapted the best or who has achieved more of their potential.

[Dr. Doofus]

Yeah, what BBD said.

Who would you rather have a few drinks with, Mr. win at all cost, or a partying recreational drug user?

Remember, the question was what we wanted to see (who we wanted to win), not who we think wants to win the most or who has adapted the best or who has achieved more of their potential.

recreational drug user

and

infrequent

race winner

doof

all for

jan

[Ti Designs]

Who said anything about wanting to see Jan win? I don't even get OLN. Hell, I don't own a TV! I wouldn't mind seeing Ginger in that blue leather dress from her closet...


Note to Kevan, I said Ginger, not Sandy.

[Climb01742]

to richie's point: yes, eddy merckx's style of spring-to-fall racing was beautiful. but that was how racing was structured in his era...or perhaps more accurately, that's how he was rewarded. lance is rewarded by winning the tour. the change really began, i think, during big mig's reign.

to bbdave's point: are we rooting for an athlete or choosing someone to date our daughters? confidence or arrogance is often a trait if champions. sweetness rarely is. yes, it seems lance can be an *ss at times. perfectly balanced human beings achieve goodness. imperfectly unbalanced human beings often achieve greatness. its highly personal, but give me a great "jerk" over an ok sweetheart anyday.

to fiamme red's point: maybe lance's training style isn't right for jan. but just as clearly, i think, jan's style isn't working for him any better. if you had come in second 5 times, would you keep training and or racing the same way? this is two bit shrinkage but is it possible that given the rather thread-bare childhood that most east german kids went through, is jan's present lifestyle so comfortable, so far from what he may have dreamed of as kid, that he is simply satisfied...his itch has been scratched...and lance's hasn't?

i'm not arguing that lance is perfect or that jan is a total screw-up. but as athletes, i think lance has maximized his talent and jan hasn't. i admire the sacrifices lances makes, and scratch my head at those jan doesn't make.

[e-RICHIE]

(snipped)...i think lance has maximized his talent and jan hasn't. i admire the sacrifices lances makes, and scratch my head at those jan doesn't make.



Climb-issimo
are you aware of any of jan's palmares excepting
the string of second places in the tdf? he's quite
an accomplished professional.

[Big Dan]

Why not Jan??????????

:banana:

[Dr. Doofus]

this is all very silly

until you've looked at jan's powermeter every day for a season, you have no idea what his ability is

throw that in with a muscle biopsy, some blood and hormone work, and talking to him everyday

maybe then -- if you know enough (in which case you're probably not posting on this board) -- you can make meaningful statements about his climbing style, his training, his comittment blah blah blah

he's a hell of a rider

go jan

[BBB]

I agree with BBDave; Armstrong is a brilliant athlete, but seemingly by all reports, a brilliant athlete with a flawed personality. Vaughter's article in the Cycle Sport/Cycling Weekly TdF Guide is quite revealing in this respect.

Ullrich seems to have squandered his ability. He turned up less than 100% in '98 and lost, same again in '00 and '04. He was beaten outright in '01 and '03, while arguably in the later race, adopting different tactics may have seen a different result.

However, it seems the guy gets an unnecessarily bad rap. Yes he has finished second four times, but if Ullrich is such a flop, then where does that leave all those other Tour GC hopefuls? Afterall if Ullrich is not exploiting his full potential and still finishes second, then this is pretty damning on everyone else.

I'd like to see Ullrich win as it will break the Armstrong nexus on the race, which can get a little boring to watch, and it will round his career out nicely; a win at the start and a win at the end.

[CJH]

Lance, it's just sooooooooo boooooooooooooooring! Not his fault he keeps beating everybody in TdF and other comp, no that's right he dosen't do much else... but nevertheless. Come on you gotta' love Jan's comeback with the Bianchi team, so close! Had it not been raining etc etc. who knows?! Maybe he'll do it this year or maybe Basso will step up or maybe... That's what keeps us comeing back for more isn't it. Specialization and all etc. but strapping on that yellow band and turning on the TV for Trautwiiig (spelling?) and Bobke for another Tour de Lance just isn't that appealing to me! I'd rather see the live coverage with Phil Liggett and pray for a miracle...

[Fixed]

Help me here I've fallen and hit my head a couple of times. There is a saying money is the root of all...... oh welll I've got to go clean my chain alot of rain today.

[GoJavs]

I'm for seeing Jan or anyone else wearing yellow through the Mountains. I'd like to see Armstrong have to pry the jersey away from another contender for the win. That just doesn't seem to happen at the Tour. Last time I remember that happening was Pantani doing it to Ullrich in '98.

I'm rooting for the underdog anyway. It's the American Way! Even if it means rooting against an American....!#$ :crap:

I must admit I felt the same way in '96. I was ready for someone other than Big Mig to win. Then Riis won and I felt sorry for Indurain. Go figure... :confused:

[Ti Designs]

to bbdave's point: are we rooting for an athlete or choosing someone to date our daughters? confidence or arrogance is often a trait if champions. sweetness rarely is. yes, it seems lance can be an *ss at times. perfectly balanced human beings achieve goodness. imperfectly unbalanced human beings often achieve greatness. its highly personal, but give me a great "jerk" over an ok sweetheart anyday.

Not sure how the Jerk got into this one, but I gotta ask - how many of y'all hang out with either Jan or Lance? Jan never returns my phone calls, and when you call up Trek and they say "thank you for calling Trek bicycles, home of Lance Armstrong", they don't really mean he lives there. Everybody has their own reasons for wanting someone to win, but thinking that they're going to be your best buddy after the tour is a bit out there.

And for those of you who have grown sick of seeing Lance win all the time, here's a tip. Get the 4 tape version of any tour (or 4 DVD collection for those of you who have embraced modern technology - it'll never last) and watch them in random order. That way Lance doesn't always win, and guys who dropped out earlier get another change.

[csb]

i am morally obligated to root for the underdog

[shralp]

"slant" is right.

"Too competitive to want to go on a club ride with"? Dude, the guy is a sports Champion. Not a club rider. Thank God. By the way, I'm sure there are plenty of very competitive club riders you wouldn't want to ride with in your area alone.

As for your impression that he would use handicap parking if he could get away with it, I can only ask, "Really"?

I hope he buries Ullrich so you guys can go on a club ride together.

[dirtdigger88]

GO LANCE

Jason

[weisan]

Uh-oh...the "looooser" is on the prowl again...be afraid, be very afraid.... :rolleyes:

Okay kids, I am turning in for the night...gotta go into the garage and do my thing. :D

[Ti Designs]

Go Jason!


Hey, I don't much care who wins the tour, but Jason's closing in on 3K posts. The average content per post however is dropping like a rock...

[shaq-d]

jan is an incredibly gifted rider, who until recently never learned to push himself away from the dinner table in the winter...who still insists on climbing on diesel power, when time after time it's been shown that lance can ride away from him as jan diesels on...who had a chance to join riis and csc, and get his butt kicked to a probable tour win, and chose to say "no thank you"...he is the robert falcon scott of the tour de france...does stubborn underachievement have a lure i'm missing?

hey climb. agree with you. jan sucks. i think in oen of the recent velonews or cycilgnnews thingies jan is quoted as saying his only goal isn't to win the TDF. well, i have this question: which came first, jan not winning the tdf 6 times in a row, or jan not having the goal of winning the tdf? it happens all the time: people re-invent their goals to match reality. this is fine, but not fine (to me) when you don't realize that's what you're doing. and it's not the mark of a tenacious winner. all of which means..

go lance! but actually, i want ivan basso to win it all this year. can't wait for a basso-armstrong duel.

sd

[saab2000]

I don't know if I should be a jerk or THE jerk (in his glory days of raising the ire of all here).......... All this speculation is not what it's all 'bout.

'nuff said 4 me.

Beat Zberg is a nice guy. And is his sister is hot. But he won't win the Tour. What has all this to do with anything. I dunno. I hammered 3 hours today on my Merckx Ti and did not go as fast as I would have on my steel bike. I'm PO'd because a wanker caused me to wheeze on a couple of minor hills today in Mendota Heights, near Minneapolis.

LA is the best Tour rider ever, but that's all he rides because that's all that counts today in his world. He gets to go on Oprah with his chick and the next day all the rage is LA and CC. JU does not go on chat shows.

Forgive me, for I am under the influence of the Bud of Belgium (Stella Artois) and know not what I do or say...... but LA will win and that's all there is to it. He is better than JU, even though I wish JU would win.

BTW, Mr. e-Ritchie is right, JU has a palmares that would cause many to call it a career, but because he "only" won the Tour 1 time somehow he is "inadequate"...... JU rocks and is the best rider of his generation, save 1.

[inGobwetrust]

I'd like to see him win his 7th. Why? Because I want to see the bar raised incredibly high for someone else to eventually make a run at it. Maybe an American, maybe not. Hopefully someone who uses their fame to further a great cause like cancer research. Whether you like him or not Lance has done a LOT of good with his fame. As a cancer survivor I certainly appreciate it. Would I sit and have a beer with him? Who cares, it's not going to happen. In a perfect world every sports star would be a model citizen and perform great acts of charity and still hang out with regular Joes instead of rock stars.

I've met quite a few celebrities because of my line of work and find most of them to be pretty stand-offish when it comes to dealing with everyday folks and I've got to admit I don't blame them. They've got so many people looking for ways to make a buck off them that they don't know who to trust so they usually figure they can only trust other celebrities in the same boat.

Just my .02

"I am still learning" Michelangelo

[shralp]

hey wheezin,

i wouldn't call bumblebeedave a loooser. he just has an interesting bias regarding two professional cyclists he likely knows nothing firsthand about, that's all.

[Tmogul]

http://www.booknoise.net/armstrong/

You will learn a lot about all the key players last year. It is true that racing has turned into a circus and the strongest doesn't always win when politics and manipulation are involved. I mean it really is a war when you have your own engineers run around the buses snapping pics of each tour contender's TT machine to see if they're winning the battle against drag. Its a war when you get a guy to pose as a triathlete to purchase a waltser TT frame for your F-one crew to scrutinize since they know Mr. Waltser wouldn't agree to sell you one. Its a war when you have your blackberry set up to beep each time a new article or quote with your name in it hits the press so you know who to shun or disdain. Then again it is this single minded animalistic "need" to win that sets him apart and entertains us as he trounces the competition.

Your comments against Ullrich are valid. However I see a man of class who comes back year after year to fight the good fight. He continues to pick himself up from the "doldrums" of failure (in our eyes) and revitalizes his hopes to bike another day. Unfortunately he did throw away his youth letting stardom get to him but I think he has proved himself a champion the way he has ridden with heart the last couple years. (I wish he had gone to CSC)

Who do I really want to win the tour this year if santa claus really did exist......Tyler Hamilton. I guess nice guys do always finish last and in this case it looks more and more like nice guys also like blood transfusions of the homologous kind. :(

[Tmogul]

I just remembered a funny movie I saw a long time ago that show cased two such diametrically apposed star athletes. Pumping Iron is a must see if you want to look inside the psyche of a person who needs to win. I'm sure most of you haven't seen it (arnold the idol to every body builder) but there is this crazy scene where Arnold is sitting having a nice meal with his competition Lou Ferrigno AND HIS PARENTS before the Mr. Olympia contest. Arnold was going on and on about what great shape Lou was in and how his physique was starting to look great BUT that he had brought up his form too slow and was not ready for the contest. "You'll be in tremendous shape two months from now Lou" he says. "Its too bad you're two months behind for this competition. Its too bad that I'm going to win this one because you are two months behind. Two months from now you might have a chance but this is two months before.....etc." (something like that) Lou being such a nice guy just sat there taking it all and mumbling that he thought he was ready. His parents just sad quietly and never said a word. Who here would have the guts to be that unabashed and bold.

Arnold is Arnold they say and Lance is Lance.

[jeffg]

Regardless of his athletic talent or his fortitude in coming back from cancer, based on what I have seen and read of him as a person in interviews and stories, he doesn't come across as very likeable. Of course that may not be the totally correct view of him--the media can often distort--but it is the only info I have on him and what I must make my decision based on. Brash. Somewhat arrogant. Just a bit too sure of himself. So competitive that you could never go for a club ride with him. The kind who would park in that handicapped-only spot if he felt he could get away with it.

Jan, on the other hand, almost invariably DOES come across to me in interviews and stories as a basically nice guy--the kind you get the feeling you would like to tip back a few brews with or go for a fun ride with. Again, maybe not a completely accurate picture, but nevertheless, it IS the way he comes across . . . the kind of guy just like me--who does his best but makes mistakes. Who tries to learn from them, but who sees there's a lot more to life than just riding. Who would never park in that handicapped spot because he just doesn't think that's the right thing to do.

Maybe I'm not the only one who feels that way.

BBDave

I admit I don't drink beer with either guy, but I have had the opportunity to meet Lance off the bike when he was visiting kids with cancer, and it was genuinely moving. Now, according to you, he's the kind of guy that steals the handicap parking spot because he can get away with it !!! Maybe you need to check yourself a bit. I don't give a flying f*** whether you like either of these riders, but keep it above the belt, please.

FWIW; I have no reason to doubt Jan's likeability. From my brief impression talking to people near Merdingen (where he used to live) and Freiburg, he is very well liked. But that is anecdotal and has little to do with anything. Let's not make the Oprah mistake of thinking we now know these people deep down. We don't. I have no idea or opinion about Ullrich dating Steinhauser's sister, Lance and Crow, whatever. What I would say is that it seems we could root for one cyclist or the other without bordering on character assasination, no?

[Climb01742]

richie--i agree that jan has a remarkable record. and if he were to say, hey, how many riders can match my accomplishments? i'm actually pretty proud of what i've done, i'm happy, satisfied and am at peace doing it my way...if he said that, i'd go "great!" it would be a pretty healthy attitude. where the disconnect comes for me is...jan says he's super hungry to beat lance, to win the tour again. yet he keeps following his old training ways, stays within the same comfortable cacoon of his coach and team. so his desires and his actions don't jibe, to me. if he was truly hungry to achieve what he hasn't, i think he'd search for new ways, new coaching, a new team approach...get out of his comfort zone. look at what lance did after his close call in 04. he reexamined everything...training, equipment, even the clothes he wore racing. that's true hunger, i think. if jan said, i'm satisfied...cool! but to say he isn't, but not search for a new answer, seems...what?...a bit lazy, a bit something...

i would love a super competitive race. with 3 or 4 guys within a minute during the last week. i'm not rooting for a cakewalk. but i am rooting for the athlete who, it seems to me, has tried to pull every last ounce out of himself.

ps: i am reading "lance armstrong's war." i think it's a really good book. very informative. i find the stuff about ferrari fascinating. i'd also recommend the book highly.

[Tom]

OK, maybe I dont know nuttin but wasn't there one year where Ullrich had people a touch worried until he fell over in the rain? I think that might point back to that team business where nobody in front of him said 'hey, dude, watch that one corner it's a *****.' I can't remember if that was Telekom all dysfunctional or the Bianchi year where maybe they just lost their heads for a day.

[Ray]

Since his dominating win in 2001, I've tried rooting for other riders, Jan, Tyler, Vino, Mayo, Basso, etc. I agree that Lance is probably a bit of a prick - it seems to take that kind of single-mindedness to be really amazingly great at something. I don't want to root for him to win. The tours can be boring when he dominates, etc. But despite my best intentions, when he starts riding away from people in the mountains, I find myself digging it. I enjoyed 2003, when he really had to work and fight for it - much more entertaining. And, jeez, the way he fought through dehydration in that TT, went off-road after Beloki bit it, and got up off the tarmac at Luz Ardiden - it really was an epic effort. I guess when it comes down to it, I'm a homer despite my best intentions.

I probably wouldn't like the guy, but he's proven his greatness time after time. I wouldn't want him dating my daughter and I'd probably agree to have a beer with him, but not sure I'd enjoy it. Nonetheless, he's great at what he does and I end up pulling for him every time. Sort of like the way I felt about Clinton's presidency. What a jerk! But I dug most of what he did and tried to do and would take him again in a heartbeat.

So I guess I'd like to see him dominate one more time and make put the record that much further out of reach. And then next year we can get back to really exciting racing and an unknown result.

-Ray

[Dr. Doofus]

no one here can make any meaningful judgment about lance or jan

this is like a bunch of dilletantes arguing over two great vintages they really can't fathom

look, regardless of what you think you know, your choice is arbitrary and founded on ignorance...it can't get any deeper than "I want so and so to win because I like him" full stop...along the same lines as "I like chocolate better than butterscotch."

i want jan to win becuase he's tall like me and has a better buzz cut...and he has vino as a teammate and vino has really blond hair and squinty eyes...and he has kloden who pimps designer clothes...and they all ride pink girly bikes and i like pink girly bikes

[Kevan]

What about Jake the Snake vs. Hulk Hogan?

[Len J]

no one here can make any meaningful judgment about lance or jan

this is like a bunch of dilletantes arguing over two great vintages they really can't fathom

look, regardless of what you think you know, your choice is arbitrary and founded on ignorance...it can't get any deeper than "I want so and so to win because I like him" full stop...along the same lines as "I like chocolate better than butterscotch."

i want jan to win becuase he's tall like me and has a better buzz cut...and he has vino as a teammate and vino has really blond hair and squinty eyes...and he has kloden who pimps designer clothes...and they all ride pink girly bikes and i like pink girly bikes

all of us are only extrapolating very samll snippets of information gleamed from insights managed by either press agents or people who don't like one or the other of them. The truth is, none of us relly know either one of them.

In addition, I suspect that, like most of us, neither one of them is the same exact person they were 4 or 5 years ago, yet part of how we are judging them is based on a snippet we "Know" from 5 years ago. Jan, before his suspension, etc.

Like most of us, I suspect that both of them are complex people that can't easily be reduced to one dimensional descriptions.

Climb........How do you know Jan hasn't tried different training? How do you know that he hasn't been tested out the wazoo, with the conclusion that for his muscle structure, his pedaling style is the most powerful and efficient? The truth is you don't know......none of us do.

Me, I'm rooting for Jan because I want to see a competitive tour, He "Seems" to handle adversity with class and grace, and because I like an underdog.

I try to stay away from labeling, which is what most of this thread seems to portray.

Len

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . .I just can’t seem to say anything here lately without attracting flames.

Shralp . . . I believe DirtDigger is supposed to be the “looser” as a result of a thread last month.

JeffG . . . I was not attempting to assassinate anyone’s character. I was giving my PERSONAL OPINION based on what I’ve seen, which is--admittedly--not every word written in every media source everywhere about both Lance and Jan. I never said I had read that Lance DID grab handicapped parking spaces. I said he now impresses me as the TYPE who would do it.

In general, I think someone else here really summarized it well. Jan has class. Lance does not--at least IMHO. He DID have it, being a cancer survivor, a family man, and charity leader, because that’s what I define as “having class.“ But it seems to me he has squandered that rep over the past few years.

That’s my OPINION, and I thought that’s what this was all supposed to be.

BBDave

[William]

Naw, I just want to see a competitive tour. Some one to give Lance a little scare and turn it into a race. Nothing wrong with that.

William

PS: I like pink girlie-bikes because Bill Bove likes pink girlie bikes and I like Bill Bove and he rides pink girlie-bikes and he sells Obrea's so I like Orange too. :rolleyes:

[Dr. Doofus]

I never said I had read that Lance DID grab handicapped parking spaces. I said he now impresses me as the TYPE who would do it.


BBDave

as a space-takin

poltroon

I accept

your apology

[jerk]

andy knew exactly to whom he was selling that walser. it was 90% mock-up not built for any specific rider or style. they still didn't "get it". believe the jerk.
as for the tour de france. its lance's to lose.
jerk

[jeffg]

. . .I just can’t seem to say anything here lately without attracting flames.


JeffG . . . I was not attempting to assassinate anyone’s character. I was giving my PERSONAL OPINION based on what I’ve seen, which is--admittedly--not every word written in every media source everywhere about both Lance and Jan. I never said I had read that Lance DID grab handicapped parking spaces. I said he now impresses me as the TYPE who would do it.

In general, I think someone else here really summarized it well. Jan has class. Lance does not--at least IMHO. He DID have it, being a cancer survivor, a family man, and charity leader, because that’s what I define as “having class.“ But it seems to me he has squandered that rep over the past few years.

That’s my OPINION, and I thought that’s what this was all supposed to be.

BBDave

BBD:
I wrote: "Now, according to you, he's the kind of guy that steals the handicap parking spot because he can get away with it !!! " i.e. "I said he now impresses me as the TYPE who would do it." Really? For all we know he visits kids with cancer just to cover up the fact he's the next JW Gacey.

To beat a dead horse, whether either of these guys has class of the bike is a question none of us can really answer. It is clear they both have loads of class on the bike.

[e-RICHIE]

[QUOTE=Climb01742]richie--i agree that jan has a remarkable record. /cut/yet he keeps following his old training ways, stays within the same comfortable cacoon of his coach and team. so his desires and his actions don't jibe, to me. if he was truly hungry to achieve what he hasn't, i think he'd search for new ways, new coaching, a new team approach...get out of his comfort zone./snipped/... QUOTE]


that is not the way. it might be the "american" way - throw
money at a problem - but jan is an east german on a german
team competing in a european sport and sponsored by a
german telecomunication giant.
he/they/these people have an agenda far bigger than the tdf;
they enter the TEAM and win races as early as february. look
at zabel's msr record. it is one of the best. look at vino in pn.
team telecom is the product here, not jan-issimo. to think that
jan would extract himself from the team system and try to but**
his way into the personal glory zone is antithetical to how the
team system works over "there".
hey - thanks for reading.

**should read "buy"

[jerk]

[QUOTE=Climb01742]richie--i agree that jan has a remarkable record. /cut/yet he keeps following his old training ways, stays within the same comfortable cacoon of his coach and team. so his desires and his actions don't jibe, to me. if he was truly hungry to achieve what he hasn't, i think he'd search for new ways, new coaching, a new team approach...get out of his comfort zone./snipped/... QUOTE]


that is not the way. it might be the "american" way - throw
money at a problem - but jan is an east german on a german
team competing in a european sport and sponsored by a
german telecomunication giant.
he/they/these people have an agenda far bigger than the tdf;
they enter the TEAM and win races as early as february. look
at zabel's msr record. it is one of the best. look at vino in pn.
team telecom is the product here, not jan-issimo. to think that
jan would extract himself from the team system and try to but
his way into the personal glory zone is antithetical to how the
team system works over "there".
hey - thanks for reading.

last heard on ulli's ipod:

Arise ye workers from your slumbers
Arise ye prisoners of want
For reason in revolt now thunders
And at last ends the age of cant.
Away with all your superstitions
Servile masses arise, arise
We'll change henceforth the old tradition
And spurn the dust to win the prize.

So comrades, come rally
And the last fight let us face
The Internationale unites the human race.
So comrades, come rally
And the last fight let us face
The Internationale unites the human race.

No more deluded by reaction
On tyrants only we'll make war
The soldiers too will take strike action
They'll break ranks and fight no more
And if those cannibals keep trying
To sacrifice us to their pride
They soon shall hear the bullets flying
We'll shoot the generals on our own side.

No saviour from on high delivers
No faith have we in prince or peer
Our own right hand the chains must shiver
Chains of hatred, greed and fear
E'er the thieves will out with their booty And give to all a happier lot.
Each at the forge must do their duty
And we'll strike while the iron is hot.

[e-RICHIE]

yeah what jerk wrote

[Dr. Doofus]

this thread is getting cool

[Big Dan]

Yeah what Richie said...plus let me add one more thing..........


Steel is real...............


:banana:

[Roy E. Munson]

Once the spring classics are over, the interesting part of the pro racing for the season is over for me until cross starts, so I wouldn't care who won the Tour. It's 20-something days of racing with a grand total of about 3 hours of interesting bits - the sprint finishes and the few mountains. Other than that, give me Paris Roubaix or Flanders any day of the week!

[dirtdigger88]

Roy- last year you were spouting off that lance was going to lose? No? I seem to remember you offering to bet anytakers that Lance was going to lose

:p

Jason

[e-RICHIE]

[QUOTE=Roy E. Munson]Once the spring classics are over, the interesting part of the pro racing for the season is over for me until cross starts...QUOTE]


wow.
are you my chimeric twin?

[Roy E. Munson]

Roy- last year you were spouting off that lance was going to lose? No? I seem to remember you offering to bet anytakers that Lance was going to lose

I'm not sure whether the fact you remember what I was saying last year is disturbing or flattering, especially with a name like "dirtdigger" - sounds like a gay pornstar name. :D I would like to see LA lose, but I don''t think it will happen.

[LegendRider]

last heard on ulli's ipod:

Arise ye workers from your slumbers
Arise ye prisoners of want
For reason in revolt now thunders
And at last ends the age of cant.
Away with all your superstitions
Servile masses arise, arise
We'll change henceforth the old tradition
And spurn the dust to win the prize.



It would be more than a little ironic if a multi-million dollar athlete was listening to The Internationale on a product developed by an American multinational technology company. And, the athlete's uniform was full of advertising AND he raced in an event full of advertising AND he endorsed all sorts of products AND he rode a bike in which the technology (probably) was in part developed by the American defense industry, etc. Yes, that would be rich...

[e-RICHIE]

dooode
why am i seen being quoted here?

[LegendRider]

I don't know why that happened - fixed now.

[e-RICHIE]

thanks.
i "heart" you for that.

[jerk]

It would be more than a little ironic if a multi-million dollar athlete was listening to The Internationale on a product developed by an American multinational technology company. And, the athlete's uniform was full of advertising AND he raced in an event full of advertising AND he endorsed all sorts of products AND he rode a bike in which the technology (probably) was in part developed by the American defense industry, etc. Yes, that would be rich...


what if he was eating an egg mcmuffin? what then?

[LegendRider]

e-richie,

I "heart" your frames. I'm so tempted to bid on the one on eBay right now!!! It would take some Enron-style accounting to keep it from my wife...

[LegendRider]

what if he was eating an egg mcmuffin? what then?

Jose Bove would punch him on the top of the Col du Galibier.

[Dr. Doofus]

no mcmuffin

jan likes wienerwald

[e-RICHIE]

e-richie,

I "heart" your frames. I'm so tempted to bid on the one on eBay right now!!! It would take some Enron-style accounting to keep it from my wife...


i'll email you a letterhead; create your own invoice!

[dirtdigger88]

Roy- last year you were spouting off that lance was going to lose? No? I seem to remember you offering to bet anytakers that Lance was going to lose

I'm not sure whether the fact you remember what I was saying last year is disturbing or flattering, especially with a name like "dirtdigger" - sounds like a gay pornstar name. :D I would like to see LA lose, but I don''t think it will happen.

no gay pornstar- just someone who bet you that Lance would win

just in case you forgot

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=2881&page=2&pp=15

Jason

[bostondrunk]

yes! he loses to lance, yet seems to refuse to change enough of his ways to beat lance. losing to lance isn't, by itself, a definition of underachievement. losing to lance, year after year, by making the same mistakes, by refusing to alter his deficiency in climbing to lance, by not changing coaches, by not shaking his team up, by not pursueing every avenue to make himself and his team better...that is what i'd call underachievement.

Climbo, are you on testo replacement therapy or something? You just love getting on here lately to put down other riders abilities, from the Sunday rider to Jan Ulrich.
How the hell can you call someone who has placed second in the TDF several tiems, and won it once, and won the TDS, etc. an underachiever?? You have a very odd view.
I guess the other 150 riders who lose to Lance each year are underachievers as well. And what do you mean change his ways? How the hell do you know what he eats at the dinner table?? duh....

[e-RICHIE]

Climbo, are you on testo replacement therapy or something? You just love getting on here lately to put down other riders abilities, from the Sunday rider to Jan Ulrich.
How the hell can you call someone who has placed second in the TDF several tiems, and won it once, and won the TDS, etc. an underachiever?? You have a very odd view.
I guess the other 150 riders who lose to Lance each year are underachievers as well. And what do you mean change his ways? How the hell do you know what he eats at the dinner table?? duh....


ps
olympic gold
world gold tt
world gold u23 road
wears cool white framed glasses

[LegendRider]

ps
olympic gold
world gold tt
world gold u23 road
wears cool white framed glasses

Don't forget the Vuelta.

[bostondrunk]

ps
olympic gold
world gold tt
world gold u23 road
wears cool white framed glasses

Well, I ddin't count those....cause....um.....even climb could have achieved that stuff....er....

Anyway, I am predicting that neither Lance nor Jan will win this year...
But I -would- like to see Jan win.....with Lance in second place, 7 seconds behind.

[e-RICHIE]

Well, I ddin't count those....cause....um.....even climb could have achieved that stuff....er....

Anyway, I am predicting that neither Lance nor Jan will win this year...
But I -would- like to see Jan win.....with Lance in second place, 7 seconds behind.


maybe they'll collude and come
across the line in paris holding
hands like the bobsie twins.
a tie.

[Climb01742]

Climbo, are you on testo replacement therapy or something? You just love getting on here lately to put down other riders abilities, from the Sunday rider to Jan Ulrich.
How the hell can you call someone who has placed second in the TDF several tiems, and won it once, and won the TDS, etc. an underachiever?? You have a very odd view.
I guess the other 150 riders who lose to Lance each year are underachievers as well. And what do you mean change his ways? How the hell do you know what he eats at the dinner table?? duh....

bd, sorry my post bug you. i don't believe i "put down" other riders' abilities. i called some sunday riders selfish and inconsiderate. i believe jan is a gifted rider -- the second best rider of his generation, and perhaps the MOST physically gifted rider. what i question is whether he matches lance in his willingness to sacrifice. as doof accurately pointed out, none of us is really in a position to know. but if we applied that filter to every thread on this forum, how many of us could honestly post about much of anything outside of our own lives?

and to your point about how do i know what jan eats at dinner? look at photos of him in march.

and from today's cyclingnews.com:

Reflecting on Lance Armstrong's imminent retirement, LeBlanc said that he had brought to the Tour a new level of professionalism in his reconnaissance of the course, choice of equipment and team discipline. "On the whole, it was a previously unknown level of commitment for him and his team-mates."

Asked if there were any negatives to Armstrong's domination of the Tour in the last six years, LeBlanc said, "The repetitiveness of his six victories is not his fault if his challengers were mediocre in their behaviour and the balance of their cycling season," said Leblanc,

[Andreu]

winning the polka dot jersey, green jersey, ....etc, etc.

We were celebrating here when a local rider was picked to ride in the Tdf never mind win a stage or the whole thing. It seems winning the tdf these days has devalued everything else that ever went on in cycling and what anyone else has ever done in cycling.
A

[Big Dan]

$$$$ and more $$$$$

:D

lance has made a lot of money for himself and others including Le Tour!!!!!!!!

[spiderlake]

Well said, Andreu! I am in complete awe of ANY rider that makes the TDF roster and find them all inspiring. Cycling isn't alone in this "second place is horrible" mentality, IMHO. Olympic coverage has also taken this slant and it always pains me to hear the inevitable question of the Silver medalist, "How does it feel to only win silver after all your years of training?" The fact they made it to the games is a major accomplishment yet the interviewer feels the need to belittle the athlete (seemingly) with these types of questions.

While I am a big LA fan, I think JU is awesome too. Tyler, George, Levi, Iban and the list goes on. No matter who wins, I think it will be a great race. I guess this isn't a post about why I want Jan to win but to say that simply making it to the dance is a major accomplishment and should be treated as such! Thanks! : )

winning the polka dot jersey, green jersey, ....etc, etc.

We were celebrating here when a local rider was picked to ride in the Tdf never mind win a stage or the whole thing. It seems winning the tdf these days has devalued everything else that ever went on in cycling and what anyone else has ever done in cycling.
A

[William]

Well said, Andreu! I am in complete awe of ANY rider that makes the TDF roster and find them all inspiring. Cycling isn't alone in this "second place is horrible" mentality, IMHO. Olympic coverage has also taken this slant and it always pains me to hear the inevitable question of the Silver medalist, "How does it feel to only win silver after all your years of training?" The fact they made it to the games is a major accomplishment yet the interviewer feels the need to belittle the athlete (seemingly) with these types of questions.

I guess this isn't a post about why I want Jan to win but to say that simply making it to the dance is a major accomplishment and should be treated as such! Thanks! : )

That mentality reminds me of a T-shirt I saw once when I was rowing:

Front: Winning Is Everything
Back: Second place just means you're the first loser.

William

(Or "Looser" in Dirts case ;) :) )

[Grant McLean]

All these posts and nobody mentioned the original Mr. Runner-Up Raymond Poulidor??
Betcha he wished Eddy had taken up gardening instead of cycling!
http://www.cyclinghalloffame.com/riders/rider_bio.asp?rider_id=43

quote:

Poulidor’s other nickname was the “Eternal Second”. He entered the Tour de France 14 times and finished 12 times. He placed second on three occasions and third on five occasions.
In 1962, Poulidor was 3rd behind Jacques Anquetil of France and Joseph Planckaert of Belgium.
In 1964, Poulidor was 2nd behind Jacques Anquetil of France.
In 1965, Poulidor was 2nd behind Felice Gimondi of Italy.
In 1966, Poulidor was 3rd behind Lucien Aimar of France and Jan Janssen of Holland.
In 1969, Poulidor was 3rd behind Eddy Merckx of Belgium and Roger Pingeon of France.
In 1972, Poulidor was 3rd behind Eddy Merckx of Belgium and Felice Gimondi of Italy.
In 1974, Poulidor was 2nd behind Eddy Merckx.
In 1976, Poulidor was 3rd behind Lucien Van Impe of Belgium and Joop Zoetemelk of Holland


In a 2005 Formula 1 season where Ferrari and Michael Schumacherhas made an astounding collapse from total dominance... will it happen to Lance???

-Grant

[William]

All these posts and nobody mentioned the original Mr. Runner-Up Raymond Poulidor??
Betcha he wished Eddy had taken up gardening instead of cycling!
http://www.cyclinghalloffame.com/riders/rider_bio.asp?rider_id=43

quote:

Poulidor’s other nickname was the “Eternal Second”. He entered the Tour de France 14 times and finished 12 times. He placed second on three occasions and third on five occasions.
In 1962, Poulidor was 3rd behind Jacques Anquetil of France and Joseph Planckaert of Belgium.
In 1964, Poulidor was 2nd behind Jacques Anquetil of France.
In 1965, Poulidor was 2nd behind Felice Gimondi of Italy.
In 1966, Poulidor was 3rd behind Lucien Aimar of France and Jan Janssen of Holland.
In 1969, Poulidor was 3rd behind Eddy Merckx of Belgium and Roger Pingeon of France.
In 1972, Poulidor was 3rd behind Eddy Merckx of Belgium and Felice Gimondi of Italy.
In 1974, Poulidor was 2nd behind Eddy Merckx.
In 1976, Poulidor was 3rd behind Lucien Van Impe of Belgium and Joop Zoetemelk of Holland


In a 2005 Formula 1 season where Ferrari and Michael Schumacherhas made an astounding collapse from total dominance... will it happen to Lance???

-Grant
Mr. Runner-up?

"Mr.Consistency" sounds better.

William

[Grant McLean]

[QUOTE=e-RICHIE]on another forum i opined that...

"the tdf has turned into a media circus; it's the equivilant of
pro racing's cash cow. it's the sport's version of "reality tv"."

this is due, in part, to this "specialization "thang" we got
goin' on now. i like bicycle racing less now than i ever did.


Richie-issimo,

I totally agree with your comments. I guess it's ironic that I hope the "pro-tour" helps elevate some other races to the point where sponsors are happy to give some real weight to wins in other races too . At this point, more money for other races is our only hope of a more balanced season. This years Giro was fantastic, which I'm taking as a positive sign of things to come...

-Grasshopper

[weisan]

Actually Jan can be compared more to Joop Zoetemelk, who won the Tour one time as well and finished six times second on the podium, only one more than Ullrich....for now :D haa...haa....

[e-RICHIE]

[QUOTE=e-RICHIE]on another forum i opined that...

"the tdf has turned into a media circus; it's the equivilant of
pro racing's cash cow. it's the sport's version of "reality tv"."

this is due, in part, to this "specialization "thang" we got
goin' on now. i like bicycle racing less now than i ever did.


Richie-issimo,

I totally agree with your comments. I guess it's ironic that I hope the "pro-tour" helps elevate some other races to the point where sponsors are happy to give some real weight to wins in other races too . At this point, more money for other races is our only hope of a more balanced season. This years Giro was fantastic, which I'm taking as a positive sign of things to come...

-Grasshopper

yeah what you write.
are YOU my chimeric twin?
i thought roy was. maybe you are.
tell me, does 'cross rule your world?
e-RICHIE

[Grant McLean]

yeah what you write.
are YOU my chimeric twin?
i thought roy was. maybe you are.
tell me, does 'cross rule your world?
e-RICHIE


come on, you know I am!
we're both 6"2!
Please send me your/our cross bike now,
my world needs to do some ridin' !

g-issimo

[Tmogul]

I can't see Lance losing this tour either. I think if he has one single bad day in the mountains the tour will become much more exciting. Look what happened at the tour of georgia this year. You have to agree it was pretty exciting during those two stages. I think we all really just want an exciting close tour where the contenders duke it out with style and dig deep into their "suitcase of courage" to try and win. :)

[coylifut]

[QUOTE=Grant McLean]

yeah what you write.
are YOU my chimeric twin?
i thought roy was. maybe you are.
tell me, does 'cross rule your world?
e-RICHIE

some one's puttin on a cross race on July 23rd in our region. CX race on Friday, XC mtb race on Sunday. It'll be the first outing for my RS CX bike. It's going to hurt.