where does 'craft' matter to you?

[Climb01742]

quick bit of backstory:

i'm in marketing/advertising. and though it may surprise some of you ;) there really is such a thing as a beautifully crafted ad. the idea is dead on. the visuals are evocative. the words are true and simple and elegant. and if it's a TV spot, the music touches you. most of all, it expresses a human truth, be it small or be it big.

but so few clients any more have the time or the budget or even the inclination to pursue craft. passable, serviceable, good enough is, well, good enough.

which got me thinking. part of what i love about bikes is that they are true expressions of craft. someone sweats the details. someone pushes again and again until he finds not just a workable solution but an elegant solution. craftsman builders raise engineering to art; beauty and balance matter. functionality and form aren't options; they're necessities. craft is alive, well, and valued in frame building today; no, not by everyone, but by enough of us that a goodly number of builders can make a go of it.

so i ask you: where else in life are you willing (in fact, happy) to pay a bit more for a finely crafted 'thing'? where does craft matter to you?

i'll start. food. i will pay a high price for a beautifully crafted/cooked meal, where the flavors, the ingredients, the presentation lift nutrition to the sublime. furniture. i'll pay for beautifully crafted piece of shaker furniture.

ok, how about you?

[1happygirl]

cool thread. This may seem trite, but I feel that way about my Apple computer. I see it as crafted (compared to a windows computer).

Makeup is more of a quality idea instead of craft thing I guess, but I'll add it anyway.
A meal I will second, but getting less so the older I get.

Floor mats (eg Weathertech custom moulded to your car). Maybe not hand made but 'crafted' /thought out and perfect. (fits your criteria of paying more for the engineering and quality crafting)

[Kontact]

I'll second food. Pretty much anything mechanical (watches, knives, firearms), plus clothing, shoes, leather goods, housing, jewelry, etc. In other words, all the stuff that we handle that didn't come out of a mold. I think this is why I ride Ti bikes, and would choose a Parlee, Serotta or Calfee over a Cervelo or Specialized if I wanted carbon.

As prices of production goods climb, I think more and more people are going to choose to buy handycrafts for just a few bucks more.

That said, my favorite crafted items are the slightly-less-than-fine arts. I love a well crafted story, stellar pop song or commercial film that is just engrossing. Star Wars isn't high art, but is absolutely wonderful. William Gibson, Neal Stephenson and Iain Banks are unlikely to win Pulitzers, but there are almost no authors I'd rather read. Making something of broad appeal that goes above and beyond is truly laudable.

[sokyroadie]

BEER :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer:

JB

[CunegoFan]

Craft is dead for 99% of the population because it requires taste to know what it is. It is much easier to make a judgement based on price or weight or faux technical benefit. This is why bike frames popped out of a mold in China often cost more than custom frames made by a master builder that the purchaser personally talked to. Every time I see a Specialized frame for $3k, $4k, $5k it makes me doubt the sanity of the planet as well as the rider.

[1happygirl]

Craft is dead for 99% of the population because it requires taste to know what it is. It is much easier to make a judgement based on price or weight or faux technical benefit. This is why bike frames popped out of a mold in China often cost more than custom frames made by a master builder that the purchaser personally talked to. Every time I see a Specialized frame for $3k, $4k, $5k it makes me doubt the sanity of the planet as well as the rider.

Hahahah probably true but you're hittin' close to home. (you hurt Lily's* feelers) :rolleyes:


PS * ya gotta name your bike
Please Cunego apologize to Lily.hahaha

pps and when I hear the name Cunego now all I think of is the Xtranormal movie(s) on bike riding. hahaha. cool moniker.

Not craft as in eye appeal or time spent, but new cars (so mechanics tell me) in SOME respects are easier to work on. Plug n play-throwaway.

[avalonracing]

but so few clients any more have the time or the budget or even the inclination to pursue craft. passable, serviceable, good enough is, well, good enough.



Sadly, this is part of our "Yesterday is so yesterday" must stay current, immediate return on investment, disposable society. In the past it took time to develop a brand that people knew and trusted. Now it is just a matter of throwing money at something, getting a nifty website up and putting your logo on a bunch of crap to make a brand hot... for today at least.

As for craft, not only do I appreciate the product that is the result of the craft but the care that goes on during the process. Some years back I took my high-end (at the time) MTB to the shop for some repairs/upgrades. The mechanic took such pride in his work and took care of my bike like it was his own. For example he pulled out a ruler and measure where the controls and grips were on the bars to make sure that they were even and that the bar was centered. Then he cut cable housing to the absolute minimum needed to keep things snappy and save weight. Finally he cleaned my cassette with a dental pick. Most mechanics would have put on my new shifters and eyeballed everything else. Anyway, it was then and there I had the revelation that I appreciate anyone who really takes pride in their job whether they are picking up my recycling and will grab the scrap of paper that falls out of the bin or getting a perfect weld on the headtube of a custom bike.

[forrestw]

where else in life are you willing (in fact, happy) to pay a bit more for a finely crafted 'thing'? where does craft matter to you? Geez, where to start. I'm an engineer and I'm reasonably accomplished in mechanical and software. In terms of hands-on craft: machinist, welder, mechanic, rigger, blacksmith and this sumer learning glass blowing. I feel fine about my Serotta in no small part because they accomplish a level of craftsmanship that goes beyond my own abilities (and imo exemplifies a level of craftsmanship that no builder larger or smaller is accomplishing today). My one hand-built frame so far is no slouch and prettier then the S'a but I know well that it's no match in terms of technical tour-de-force.

I'm not too keen on spending big $$ on prepared food because I can match the culinary skills of nearly any pro kitchen in the Boston area. (One meal I felt great about spending moderately big $ on was many moons ago La Tour d'Argent in Paris).

I've got a cousin who's produced beers that approach the level of quality of the best pro craft brewers, I've done well in brewing Mead but that's frankly easier.

Being a solid craftsman myself, I'm also pretty keen to trade services with my peers. The IRS would like a piece of these exchanges of course but they can pound sand :-).

This may seem trite, but I feel that way about my Apple computer. Not trite in the least, since Apple went to UNIx(TM) under the hood, they've had the best game in town.

I help with some teaching at MIT these days and I have to say I'm not optimistic about the mastery of craftsmanship I'm seeing in the current crop of students compared even to a decade back. Maybe I'm wrong but it feels like the second generation to grow up in a video game culture doesn't have the chops of those who came before.

[1happygirl]

I help with some teaching at MIT these days and I have to say I'm not optimistic about the mastery of craftsmanship I'm seeing in the current crop of students compared even to a decade back. Maybe I'm wrong but it feels like the second generation to grow up in a video game culture doesn't have the chops of those who came before.
Do you think its because the young 'uns:

1. don't have the patience to work for a long time on 1 project (thank your PS3 short attention game machine)
2. feel they aren't gonna make as much $$$ doing it (this is what I hear from my friends)
or 3. really don't have the ability or skillz

???

[AngryScientist]

lots of things, two that immediately spring to mind are watches and cars.

pulling strongly to the top of that list comes one of the most iconic manufacturers in the world. i think they are absolutely masters of their craft, masters. all work done "in house", flawless, emotional, moving advertising. craftsmanship unrivaled by any IMO. one of my favorite brands of all time, all things considered.


http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x206/ezulema/Rolex/Submariner%2014060M%20arito%20interno/RolexSubmariner14060Mfoto5.jpg

[Kontact]

Rolex is like Rolls Royce - the Cadillac of cars.

[forrestw]

Do you think its because the young 'uns:
1. don't have the patience to work for a long time on 1 project (thank your PS3 short attention game machine)
2. feel they aren't gonna make as much $$$ doing it (this is what I hear from my friends)
or 3. really don't have the ability or skillz???

I guess I'd say none of the above or a bit of 1+3. I think it's really a simple lack of ability to put hands on stuff and do it which I think is more complex than amy people understand. It's proprioception, mechanical skills that simply take time and the making of mistakes to build. I don't think it's '2', most folks in engineering / R&D I know are still motivated first by enjoyment of the work.

The '70s tech grads I knew usually had really broad skills, e.g. my EE friend who'd built an Aluminum bike frame along with a dozen other classmates. From Mitering through TIG welding and heat-treating. I believe their work was the foundation of where Gary Klein started.

This was still the nature of the folks I know who were graduating 10 years ago. Today they're still there but seem to be the exception where they used to be a fair majority.

[BengeBoy]

i'm in marketing/advertising. and though it may surprise some of you ;) there really is such a thing as a beautifully crafted ad.

SOMEWHERE west of Laramie there's a bronco-busting, steer roping girl who knows what I’m talking about.

She can tell what a sassy pony, that’s a cross between greased lighting and the place where it hits, can do with eleven hundred pounds of steel and action when he's going high, wide and handsome.

The truth is - the Playboy was built for her.

Built for the lass whose, face is brown with the sun when the day is done of revel and romp and race. She loves the cross of the wild and the tame.

There's a savor of links about that car - of laughter and lilt and light - a hint of old loves - and saddle and quirt. It’s a brawny thing - yet a graceful thing for the sweep o' the Avenue.

Step into the Playboy when the hour grows dull with things gone dead and stale. Then start for the land of real living with the spirit of the lass who rides, lean and rangy, into the red horizon of a Wyoming twilight.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Jordancarad.jpg

[Scott Shire]

The kids are alright. You guys are starting to sound old like a bunch of Serotta riders or something ;)
http://www.pedalconsumption.com/files/young_gun.jpg
I'm far more confident in today's youth than the average bear might be. I work with a lot of guys in their early 20s who certainly appreciate craft. Whether it's bikes (check out the "beautiful bicycles" section on Prolly is not probably (http://www.prollyisnotprobably.com/) if you think kids don't dig craft on the velo front), or music, or milk stouts these guys and gals "get it" in a big way. As the world around them gets increasingly disposable, they have little choice but to seek out tiny niches where craft blossoms. Note the average age at a NAHBS.

[Scott Shire]

As for me, I really dig craft in audio gear -- particularly tube stuff and planar speakers.
I'm also into perfectly crafted sandwiches.
1) Mushroom Cheesesteak w/ sauce onions Dallessandros PHL, PA
2) Chopped Sandwich w/ slaw Parkers BBQ Greenville, NC
3) Shackburger, no shack sauce ShakeShack NYC
4) Cheesesteak, Whiz w/ fried onions Steve's Prince of Steaks PHL, PA
5)Roast Beef Po Boy w/ debris, dressed Domilise's NOLA
6) Smoked Meat, Schwartz's Delicatessen Montreal, PQ
7) Lobster Roll, B&G Oyster Boston, MA
8) Beef on Weck, Charlie the Butcher Buffalo, NY
9) Roast Pork w/ Provolone John's Roast Pork PHL, PA
10) Hot Beef w/ giardiniera, sweet peppers, provolone Al's #1 Beef Chicago, IL

[poguemahone]

As a long time cartoonist, I have the highest regard for craft.

http://stevestiles.com/Caniff-Raven.gif

Milton Canniff, probably aided by Steve Stiles (edit: should read Noel Sickles. I know this, but am susceptible to brain farts) in spotting the blacks. Brilliant use of black, dilation of time, and panel to panel composition. I prefer these old Terry and the Pirates to the later Steve Canyons, but anything by Milton is just fine with me.

http://www.mardecortesbaja.com/BarksSerum4Baja.JPG

Carl Barks. Very deceptive, appears simple. Masterwork level composition. Much more going on here than meets the eye. The best Barks stories are easy to read because they are brilliantly laid out. IMO the greatest artist of the twentieth century (not kidding).

Others? Al Capp (esp Fearless Fosdick), Bill Waterson, Walt Kelly.

[Muttleyone]

Since the OP is in advertising I thought I would link this commercial. I think it is one is best commercials I have seen in a long time. I think everything just "works" in this one. I also wondered if the the OP thinks that this one as a "crafted" commercial?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lk2B8988ws0&feature=related

Mutt

[1centaur]

The older you are, and the more money you have, the more likely you will appreciate the pleasures of well crafted anything, since it is rare. Time and money are so hard to get, who has enough of both to craft anything wonderfully rather than well enough? I appreciate the stubbornness required to do it anyway. I think there are examples all over, but often not in what I am looking to buy, or not clearly so.

[avalonracing]

The older you are, and the more money you have, the more likely you will appreciate the pleasures of well crafted anything, since it is rare.

or the older you are, and the more money you have... you realize that it is all just stuff.

I'm not trying to be negative and I'm still young (or old) enough to appreciate craft but in the end we are just passing through.


Now sell me your 57cm Ti bikes as you can't take them with you.

[Bob Loblaw]

Paint and bodywork, be it on car, bike, or motorcycle, when it's so good it looks like the paint is coated with glass.

Storytelling...there are so few really good storytellers out there. It seems movies all just try to dazzle your senses or give you emotional accupuncture, and so many novelists are trying to be Dan Brown. It's a rare treat when a movie like The Shawshank Redemption or a writer like Neal Stephenson comes along.

Beer has been said, and to that I will add pizza. I am fortunate to live on the shoreline of Connecticut, the pizza epicenter of the universe. Within a ten or fifteen mile stretch along 95, there are zero chain pizza places, but there are thirty miniscule mom-and-pop places where it's good enough to make you want to cry.

BL

[thinpin]

Few people are willing to pay for quality.
A lot of the good stuff from yore is still around (it was usually expensive in its day) and appreciated by someone, most of the crud has vanished. It was always this way.
Watches, bikes musical instruments, cars hey even the tools used to make all of this stuff all crafted. Crafted stuff costs, thats why its rare. People who appreciate it are way in the minority, sort of patrons of the arts.

[rounder]

To me, craft is things done well. I don't expect that most basic thimgs are done well, so long as rhey are done and done on time.

The only bike stuff special that i bought within last year was my K Bedford bike. I went all in. I got the the standard build with team colors. I asked for lugs. I did not specify anything else. The bike came back beautiful. The lugs were sculpted with cutouts (that you can drool over). Everything fit great. It was like extra effort was taken all around, including the paint. I did not ask for it, but each step along the way exceeded expectations. Would i recommend smiley or kelly to anyone else. You bet.

[Climb01742]

Since the OP is in advertising I thought I would link this commercial. I think it is one is best commercials I have seen in a long time. I think everything just "works" in this one. I also wondered if the the OP thinks that this one as a "crafted" commercial?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lk2B8988ws0&feature=related

Mutt

yes, well crafted, very. the dog is a great 'everyman' breed. they took the time to get his 'performance' dead-on in every vignette. and the topper, the element that lifts it highest, is using ray's song; not just the words, but ray's voice quality is perfect for the message. well crafted indeed. notice it's a 60 second spot (rare for clients to buy that much time) but it gives you the time needed to build+tell the story evocatively.

[flydhest]

for me when it comes to food, it is not simply the haute cuisine that impresses me, indeed, it often leaves me a bit flat, it is very high quality food that is turned out in very short periods of time day in and day out. That "competence" is something that I have respect for. The knife work, the verification of the degree of cooking of meat (cuisson) by touch, "measurement" by feel. I suspect that most people think being called "competent" is damning with faint praise, but I think of it as a high compliment, because, in my view, it is somewhat rare.

back to food per se, the little old nonnas who run the hole in the wall restaurants in Italy, where you get for dinner what they made that day--possibly two options, and the wine list is "red" or "white". But in particular, where they make the pasta each morning. That process of making the pasta . . . is great. I have made pasta by hand, I know I can do it reasonably well, but to do it, with a muscle memory of decades, so that it is as much reflective as reflexive, and to do it in a time efficient way and yet have it be both delicious and consistent. That is craft, for me, at the highest level.

[1centaur]

I almost always stop to watch that dog commercial, even though I found the payoff a let-down, in particular the placement in the dog bowl was less thoughtful than it should have been. Good for the marketing execs to have enough whimsy to greenlight it.

Part of what makes that video great is the pace and editing/timing of each shot in conjunction with the music. In that vein, Thomas Carter directed the pilot for Miami Vice years ago and used "In the Air Tonight" and spectacular editing to create a mood and sense of anticipation that was intoxicating. Reviews at the time focused on the network order for the series involving the concept of "MTV cops", but what was delivered was so much more than that. I felt the entire first season's ratings were built on a base of the audience feelings evoked by that scene. I taped the whole first season and only a few scenes matched it (Carter handed the reins over early). Movie and TV can be great venues for craft because they force the viewer to slow down and experience the output at the speed of editing and dialog. Most efforts don't rise to the level, but as the other thread about best movies shows, often they do.

[Climb01742]

for me when it comes to food, it is not simply the haute cuisine that impresses me, indeed, it often leaves me a bit flat, it is very high quality food that is turned out in very short periods of time day in and day out. That "competence" is something that I have respect for. The knife work, the verification of the degree of cooking of meat (cuisson) by touch, "measurement" by feel. I suspect that most people think being called "competent" is damning with faint praise, but I think of it as a high compliment, because, in my view, it is somewhat rare.

back to food per se, the little old nonnas who run the hole in the wall restaurants in Italy, where you get for dinner what they made that day--possibly two options, and the wine list is "red" or "white". But in particular, where they make the pasta each morning. That process of making the pasta . . . is great. I have made pasta by hand, I know I can do it reasonably well, but to do it, with a muscle memory of decades, so that it is as much reflective as reflexive, and to do it in a time efficient way and yet have it be both delicious and consistent. That is craft, for me, at the highest level.

in this vein, yesterday i got a hot chocolate from peet's. a teenage girl made it. the place was packed, with drink orders piling up. yet here's what she did: she put the chocolate syrup in the bottom of the paper cup. then she put about 1/3 of the hot milk in. then she got a spoon and carefully mixed the milk and chocolate. more orders were barked at her. yet she stirred it until the milk+syrup were mixed. then she filled the cup with the rest of the milk. then she stirred again. then she carefully formed this circular mountain of whip cream on top. it was a tiny thing of beauty+craft. my guess is peet's is her summer job. she'd never seen me before, and probably never will again. she simply took pride in doing it right. sipping that drink was such a small yet delicious pleasure in my day, and her craft gave it to me. sometimes craft is also an act of kindness. not to make too much of it but like flydhest's pasta, care can create a human connection.

[SoCalSteve]

My Porsche. Every time I drive it, it puts a smile on my face...every detail has been thought out and improved over the past 40 years or so that the 911 has been in existence...

My Rolex Submariner isn't too bad either... :)

[Aaron O]

As you said...food is a big one for me. Most people don't know the difference between atmosphere and food. I worked as a server and bartender in my youth, and I assure you that less than 10% of customers could tell the difference between microwaved frozen and made fresh, but they sure were pretentious about how fine their tastes were. I can tell, and absolutely love getting something complex, subtle, new and fresh.

I LOVE a good Scotch...there's something delicious about something like Lagavulin 21. Life's finer moments should be celebrated with scotch and nothing else warms every part of your body like Scotch does.

A well made beer coming from a clean line. There is a huge difference in beer quality from bar to bar, and it all has to do with how far the line goes to the tap and how rigorous they are about cleaning the lines. A good beer from a short, clean line is a thing of beauty.

Oddly, belts. I guess I get it from my father, but I have a weird fondness for hand made leather belts and crafted belt buckles. Just bought one last week in New Hope.

I really enjoy fine glass...something else I probably got from my parents. Murano was interesting because most of the glass there was Taiwanese imitation junk. The real stuff was remarkable.

[MattTuck]

This seems appropriate.

From a webcomic I read, www.xkcd.com

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/connoisseur.png

[e-RICHIE]

This seems appropriate.
From a webcomic I read, www.xkcd.com


that's hilarious and appropriate atmo!

ps

arrange disorder

:o :o :o
:D :D :D
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :)

[Idris Icabod]

Watches and turntables.

[Karin Kirk]

Nice topic, Climb.

Agreed that we are surrounded with an abundance of junky products. But we get what we ask for. You want a $2 spaghetti strainer? No problem, here's one million of them shipped fresh from China. You will, of course, need a dozen of them to last as long as one well-made item, but that kind of economics is not our strong suit.

In addition to buying well-crafted things when we can (and to answer the OP for us it's furniture made in the USA, from real trees) I also take special pleasure in the act of crafting things. By that I don't mean quilts and beaded earrings, but just regular things like making a killer cup of coffee or our "house" salad where every item is attended to with conscious thought.

We're on quite a mission to grow and process significant portions of our own food and to me that is craft at its finest. From selecting the varieties, starting the seeds while it's still winter, and tending the crops from planting til harvest, we put a lot of energy into producing that food.

Then there's the cooking, canning and preserving. And finally - the eating! What a great process. No humble PB&J sandwich is ever the same once it is adorned with homemade raspberry jam.

Food aside, even everyday actions in life can be elevated to craft. My grandmother was an astute ironer. I have taken up the challenge, even though I iron rarely, to really do a fine job with it. So I guess craft is what you make of it, but it is satisfying to be able to slow down sometimes and but a little artisanship into standard domestic duties.

BTW we love that Traveler's Insurance ad too. There is a new version out that is great as well. :)

[rugbysecondrow]

Not to be that guy, but craft is a luxury with little kids and working adults. The way things get broken, mistreated, misappropriated. The amount of extra money required for items of greater craftsmanship, the extra time one needs to have to tend a garden, well that too is a luxury. I am not begrudging my life, my kids are my craft now.

I do have my bike rides, but much of the rest of my life has little room for this notion of craft. I operate in a world of utility, if craft and utility overlap (all clad cook ware for instance) in a reasonable way, then we are in business. I am not at a point in my life where I pay much extra for it though. I don't have the time to appreciate it nor do I have the strength to prevent it from being abused.

Having just ridden a new Boss Hoss motorcycle, I look forward to a little more craft in my life.

[e-RICHIE]

Not to be that guy, but craft is a luxury with little kids and working adults. The way things get broken, mistreated, misappropriated. The amount of extra money required for items of greater craftsmanship, the extra time one needs to have to tend a garden, well that too is a luxury. I am not begrudging my life, my kids are my craft now.

I do have my bike rides, but much of the rest of my life has little room for this notion of craft. I operate in a world of utility, if craft and utility overlap (all clad cook ware for instance) in a reasonable way, then we are in business. I am not at a point in my life where I pay much extra for it though. I don't have the time to appreciate it nor do I have the strength to prevent it from being abused.

Having just ridden a new Boss Hoss motorcycle, I look forward to a little more craft in my life.

you sound just like that guy atmo. craft need not be about consumption or collecting. it's about knowing and appreciating. it's about paying attention. you don't have to buy something or own something or eat something to recognize craft, or quality. it's about paying attention and being open-minded. at the end of the day it's about being receptive to that folks can and do invest emotionally in something they believe in. at the core of all this, there's little, or nothing, that has anything to do with skin color, income level, or any demographic. to that end, i am sure those without know and appreciate craft the same way all others do atmo. PS i think it's nice that you consider your children your craft.

ps

arrange disorder

:) :) :)
:cool: :cool: :cool:
;) ;) :p

[1centaur]

While it is possible (and happens) for young, busy, poor people to appreciate craft, I have no doubt that income/demographics increase the odds and breadth of such simply by exposure. To have the money to buy better quality is to have more reason to take the time to pay attention to more than what one happens across in daily life. What % of Sachs bike buyers are young and poor? What percent of Sachs bike admirers are young and poor? This is a relative question in the US and globally, since many Americans of limited means are relatively wealthy by global standards.

When I was young and poor I delighted in bargains and thought Consumer Reports was right on. As I have become more experienced and able to buy things across more of the price spectrum I have come to understand that most bargains are compromises that play out over the time I have less of. That enables me to perceive quality in things that I am not buying, more often.

Paying attention and being open minded is in itself a luxury of time to focus.

And as a side note, there is a difference between somebody putting time and attention into the creation of something and its worth as craft. Some craftsmen "get it" and some just express their psychoses in their effort, or at least there's a disconnect between what they think they're doing and what others think they're doing. Yoko Ono's music would fit that category for me.

[rugbysecondrow]

I don't disagree with what you wrote. I would just add that I do appreciate craftsmanship and I do believe in many instances an item of good craftsmanship is a better long term value. That being said, people go through phases where they are more or less in tune to things. I am less in tune to things now and I have a more utilitarian view of things. I notice Artisian or craftsmanship when I see it, but I lack the time to indulge it (car shows, expos, art fairs etc). With young kids, I live in a state of transient stuff. Clothes, toys, gear etc all is short lived. It lacks permanence in many respects and does not call for items of high craftsmanship.

In my house, I do have many original art pieces, some collectables, some everyday items, and of course my bikes. We have started adding quality furniture, but it is hard when your two year old beats the snot out of things. (fork holes on the new kitchen table). There is a disincentive for a few years.

Again not complaining, just articulating a different point of view.

you sound just like that guy atmo. craft need not be about consumption or collecting. it's about knowing and appreciating. it's about paying attention. you don't have to buy something or own something or eat something to recognize craft, or quality. it's about paying attention and being open-minded. at the end of the day it's about being receptive to that folks can and do invest emotionally in something they believe in. at the core of all this, there's little, or nothing, that has anything to do with skin color, income level, or any demographic. to that end, i am sure those without know and appreciate craft the same way all others do atmo. PS i think it's nice that you consider your children your craft.

ps

arrange disorder

:) :) :)
:cool: :cool: :cool:
;) ;) :p

[rugbysecondrow]

Said better than me.


While it is possible (and happens) for young, busy, poor people to appreciate craft, I have no doubt that income/demographics increase the odds and breadth of such simply by exposure. To have the money to buy better quality is to have more reason to take the time to pay attention to more than what one happens across in daily life. What % of Sachs bike buyers are young and poor? What percent of Sachs bike admirers are young and poor? This is a relative question in the US and globally, since many Americans of limited means are relatively wealthy by global standards.

When I was young and poor I delighted in bargains and thought Consumer Reports was right on. As I have become more experienced and able to buy things across more of the price spectrum I have come to understand that most bargains are compromises that play out over the time I have less of. That enables me to perceive quality in things that I am not buying, more often.

Paying attention and being open minded is in itself a luxury of time to focus.

And as a side note, there is a difference between somebody putting time and attention into the creation of something and its worth as craft. Some craftsmen "get it" and some just express their psychoses in their effort, or at least there's a disconnect between what they think they're doing and what others think they're doing. Yoko Ono's music would fit that category for me.

[parris]

For me fine shotguns are an area where craft is very much alive. This is an item much like the bicycle which has been in it's modern form for well over a century and although there are improvements in material which may make the firearm a bit stronger at it's core it's the same. The best bespoke makers today build with a level of care that sets the bar higher than ANY time in history overall. Sounds like many builders we're aware of doesn't it?

There are other items but given how the act of shotgunning is quite dynamic and fit/balance is hugely important for me it's actually an easy parallel.

[flydhest]

Re: craftsmanship and parenthood. I hope to be part of my daughter appreciating craftsmanship and realizing the false economy that is touted as utilitarianism. In the long run, I believe, it makes us all poorer. Materially and spiritually.

[rugbysecondrow]

Re: craftsmanship and parenthood. I hope to be part of my daughter appreciating craftsmanship and realizing the false economy that is touted as utilitarianism. In the long run, I believe, it makes us all poorer. Materially and spiritually.


I hope you do too. The reality is not just about consumption though, clothes last 2 months to 1 year, shoes much less, they outgrow helmets, bikes, strollers etc. Sometimes it is about utility and you just cope.

Good luck in your endeavor, write a book if you figure it out.

[rdparadise]

For me there are a few items that I notice craftsmenship at its best:

Cars... I drive a 2005 Mercedes Benz E320-CDI. It has 109000 miles on it and other than tires, oil changes and diesel fuel, it really doesn't require much to keep it running. The engineering in this vehicle is sublime, the fit and finish outstanding and the torgue, beyond compare;

My bikes, one Serotta Legend Ti/ST. Again, one hell of a craft made vehicle. The other a Zanconato road bike, lugged steel. Sweet!...

Clothes, as I've matured and reached mid-life, I now have learned to appreciate fine fabrics and the clothing I wear. Call me a snob, however, I now know the difference and greatly appreciate these fabrics vs. what I used to wear and acquire in the past.

My Brooks saddle, now that's craft at it's finest.

Simpler things...

A great cup of coffee...

A great baseball game at the Bank, with the Phillies, who are playing at the top of their craft right now. Watching Halladay, Hamels or Lee pitch right now is real craftsmanship...

A bike ride through the so. jersey countryside or the Brandywine Valley, just wonderful.

Bob

[dgauthier]

Where does craft matter to me? In everything!

More often than not, a well crafted thing is also a *durable* thing. I'm not rich enough to keep buying the same stuff over and over every couple of years when it breaks. I would much rather spend more once and have something that will last for the rest of my life.

Unfortunately, the trend nowadays is to compete on price above all else, such that quality is truly terrible. Too few people realize that purchasing shoddily made goods at dirt cheap prices is false economy.

[Frankwurst]

Amortize. Craftsmanship costs very little in the big scheme of things. :beer:

[Bob Loblaw]

That is HILARIOUS!

This seems appropriate.

From a webcomic I read, www.xkcd.com

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/connoisseur.png

[Aaron O]

For me there are a few items that I notice craftsmenship at its best:

Cars... I drive a 2005 Mercedes Benz E320-CDI. It has 109000 miles on it and other than tires, oil changes and diesel fuel, it really doesn't require much to keep it running. The engineering in this vehicle is sublime, the fit and finish outstanding and the torgue, beyond compare;

My bikes, one Serotta Legend Ti/ST. Again, one hell of a craft made vehicle. The other a Zanconato road bike, lugged steel. Sweet!...

Clothes, as I've matured and reached mid-life, I now have learned to appreciate fine fabrics and the clothing I wear. Call me a snob, however, I now know the difference and greatly appreciate these fabrics vs. what I used to wear and acquire in the past.

My Brooks saddle, now that's craft at it's finest.

Simpler things...

A great cup of coffee...

A great baseball game at the Bank, with the Phillies, who are playing at the top of their craft right now. Watching Halladay, Hamels or Lee pitch right now is real craftsmanship...

A bike ride through the so. jersey countryside or the Brandywine Valley, just wonderful.

Bob

If Howard and the bats have any life in the post-season, it's going to be fun! We're going to be telling our grandkids about what it was like to have those three all at the same time. Shame about Oswalt, but it's about par for his career over all.

Out of curiosity, where do you find great coffee in Philly? I haven't found anything better than La Colombe here.

PS - SNOB! I'm still a no fashion sense t-shirt guy and am jealous of those that understand clothes. I don't.

[forrestw]

The kids are alright. You guys are starting to sound old like a bunch of Serotta riders or something ;)
I'm far more confident in today's youth than the average bear might be. I work with a lot of guys in their early 20s who certainly appreciate craft. Whether it's bikes ... Note the average age at a NAHBS.
[EDIT] consider this a proposition parts of which I hope other commenters will refute
Agreed, and I was in no wise what so ever suggesting that Gen Y/Z/AA aren't interested in craft, my comment was quite specific to who I'm seeing coming through our top technical universities.

On a related note I find it sad that outside of tubing production and high-end componentry there's little going on in cycling by way of solid engineering or materials science. Campy and some of the wheel manufacturers stand out in this respect (neither Shimano nor SRAM as far as I can tell care a whit about building gear that holds up and can be repaired when things break). Mostrem engineering practice today seems to be going into how to produce quality carbon frames in asia at least cost. That's also not necessarily a bad thing, engineers are supposed to be able to figure out the best cost way of doing something. I remain principally enamored of Serotta as a builder that has a firm handle on design, construction detail and process engineering (you don't build reliable Ti or carbon structures without all 3).

Very few frame builders that I know of are engineers or have much depth of knowledge of the materials they work in. This isn't a dig by any means, craftsmen all over the world have accomplished amazing stuff without what we traditionally think of as science / technology; the craftsmen who have constructed japanese swords were not metallurgists and it's only in the last 20 years that modern metallurgy has begun to understand those centuries-old crafts, or those of the sword-smiths of Damascus (an entirely different technique).

[jblande]

i really think we are confusing craft with a lot of neighboring concepts.

when we recognize something as a work of craft, i believe we recognize the capacity for human beings to strive for and achieve excellence. that is not to say that excellence and the capacity to recognize it are historically immutable or not the result of receiving a certain education or acculturation. on the contrary. i would say that what seems to me less prone to change, less easily reduced to a socio-economic question is the fact that human being possess the capacity to strive for excellence in their endeavors. that our society places so little emphasis on the exercising of this human capacity is, indeed, a cause for concern.

the concept craft and the form of human excellence it describes may not have the place around fork-wielding two-year olds. but it most certainly belongs to the form of education that child should receive.

[forrestw]

If I had to pick one thing that for me epitomizes craftsmanship it would be the japanese long sword. They were / are produced by teams of workers with particular skills and this art has been mutated / lost & re-discovered multiple times over a period of centuries.

[RPS]

While it is possible (and happens) for young, busy, poor people to appreciate craft, I have no doubt that income/demographics increase the odds and breadth of such simply by exposure. To have the money to buy better quality is to have more reason to take the time to pay attention to more than what one happens across in daily life. What % of Sachs bike buyers are young and poor? What percent of Sachs bike admirers are young and poor? This is a relative question in the US and globally, since many Americans of limited means are relatively wealthy by global standards.

When I was young and poor I delighted in bargains and thought Consumer Reports was right on. As I have become more experienced and able to buy things across more of the price spectrum I have come to understand that most bargains are compromises that play out over the time I have less of. That enables me to perceive quality in things that I am not buying, more often.

Paying attention and being open minded is in itself a luxury of time to focus.

And as a side note, there is a difference between somebody putting time and attention into the creation of something and its worth as craft. Some craftsmen "get it" and some just express their psychoses in their effort, or at least there's a disconnect between what they think they're doing and what others think they're doing. Yoko Ono's music would fit that category for me.
As usual, you nailed it.

IMO craft is very subjective. When my family came to US as political refugees after leaving everything behind, essentials required to survive became the only thing that mattered. What had been valued craft from a consumer’s standpoint wasn’t even on the radar. Decades later as my parents prospered in US they started acquiring and accumulating nicely crafted things once again.

Craft is also extremely relative. When a person is forced to bend a coat hanger into a makeshift bread toaster, they can do it crudely or with elegance and flair. Both can be just as functional, but one can look and feel superior. But in reality, at the end of the day for those who can afford a real toaster, a bent coat hanger, no matter how well crafted, is still junk.

It’s a lot about economics and means, not about taste.

[jblande]

Craft is also extremely relative. When a person is forced to bend a coat hanger into a makeshift bread toaster, they can do it crudely or with elegance and flair. Both can be just as functional, but one can look and feel superior. But in reality, at the end of the day for those who can afford a real toaster, a bent coat hanger, no matter how well crafted, is still junk.




i think if you take a step back and think about the contexts in which you use the word craft, you would see that this is not one.

[RPS]

so i ask you: where else in life are you willing (in fact, happy) to pay a bit more for a finely crafted 'thing'? where does craft matter to you?

...snipped....

ok, how about you?
Time.

More than anything else, I’m willing to pay more for time when it’s on my terms.

[RPS]

i think if you take a step back and think about the contexts in which you use the word craft, you would see that this is not one.
How so? :confused:

Go easy, English is my second language. :)

[firerescuefin]

Can't believe I am defending RPS ;)

He gets it. There are some of us that are so wrapped up in what we perceive as craft that we appreciate/covet something that is much less effective at what it does (vs a less crafted alternative) because we appreciate the craft that goes into it.

I certainly have been guilty of that.

[rugbysecondrow]

Can't believe I am defending RPS ;)

He gets it. There are some of us that are so wrapped up in what we perceive as craft that we appreciate/covet something that is much less effective at what it does (vs a less crafted alternative) because we appreciate the craft that goes into it.

I certainly have been guilty of that.

A well crafted watch that requires 400 dollar tune ups and cleanings vs a timex that will take a licking and keep ticking. ones certainly offers much more than the other at a fraction of the price. I guess that is why watches are considered jewelry.

[Scott Shire]

Young, poor guys LOVE Richard Sachs frames. ~75% of all posts on tarkbike.com end with "ATMO."

[Bob Loblaw]

This is very true, but I'd also suggest that utility is a form of craft, maybe the highest form.

The best engineered car of all time...hands down, the humble VW Beetle. It wasn't just a cheap car thrown together out of a parts bin. From bumper to bumper its minimalist design was simple, beautiful and elegant, and the fact it was inexpensive is just proof of how thoughtfully it was engineered and manufactured.

<snip>

Craft is also extremely relative. When a person is forced to bend a coat hanger into a makeshift bread toaster, they can do it crudely or with elegance and flair. Both can be just as functional, but one can look and feel superior. But in reality, at the end of the day for those who can afford a real toaster, a bent coat hanger, no matter how well crafted, is still junk.

It’s a lot about economics and means, not about taste.

[bironi]

Everywhere I can afford it.