OT: Teen Driver Questions

[67-59]

Anybody have suggestions -- other than just "practice, practice, practice" -- on how to make a bad teen driver good?

Our daughter has had her temporary permit for several weeks and (much as it pains me to say this) is just an awful driver. Both my wife and I have gone out driving with her and have gone out of our way to be patient, provide constructive advice, etc, but our daughter seems to have both confidence and dexterity issues. She has now had two accidents -- thank goodness both were minor -- in about 15 hours of driving. The first was when I was out with her on a rural road: She was making a right hand turn and never steered back to the left to straighten out the car and come out of the turn...so we went right into a ditch on the right side of the road. She said she "forgot" to steer back. Then there was earlier today: She was with my wife in a parking lot, coming toward another car a bit fast so my wife told her to hit the brake. She hit the gas instead, and blasted the guy. Like I said - fortunately there were no injuries in either case.

I know new drivers aren't perfect, but she has now had more accidents and caused more damage in one month than my wife and I have had collectively in 60 years of driving.

My wife and I have both tried to provide patient advice (about steering, proper speed, safe distance behind other cars, etc), but it never seems to sink in. Also, this is a new thing for us: she always has been a straight A student, never been in trouble, etc. So it's the first time we have struggled with trying to get her to do something that she won't/can't do.

Thoughts on how to constructlvely address the issue? I'm really struggling to come up with the proper way to handle this....

[AngryScientist]

did she have to take a driving class to get the permit. here in NJ if you want to get your learners permit on time, you must complete mandatory drivers training with in-car instructors. sometimes, it takes someone unrelated (at all) to the new driver to get the job done. i would start with classes like that if you havent already.

good luck to the three of you!

[67-59]

did she have to take a driving class to get the permit. here in NJ if you want to get your learners permit on time, you must complete mandatory drivers training with in-car instructors. sometimes, it takes someone unrelated (at all) to the new driver to get the job done. i would start with classes like that if you havent already.

good luck to the three of you!

She took the classroom course, but here in MN, you just do that and take the written test to get your permit. The behind the wheel sessions come after that. She has taken two of the six sessions she's required to take with the instructor to be eligible for the driving test, but the returns from that haven't been very promising either. He suggested we spend more time practicing with her between lessons...and it has resulted in the aforementioned accidents. Uggghh.

[avalonracing]

Be happy that you aren't in a congested, multi-national death trap know and they Baltimore/DC metro area!

It sounds like she is having a few issues and it would be good to take care of those now instead of hoping for the best or making her someone who will be afraid to drive ever again.

This sounds a bit crazy but do you have any go cart tracks around there? It would help with control, concentration and confidence.

[Ozz]

Go to a Mall parking lot early on a Sunday morning...set up some cones and have her practice driving around them...I think keeping her off the roads is a good idea until she has a better grasp of the controls and how they work together.

I remember the Drivers-Ed cars I was in had a brake pedal over in the passenger compartment...so the instructor could apply if needed. You might find out about getting one of those.

Good luck....sounds scary.

[Ken Robb]

Tire rack Teen Survival Class is offered around the country and many chapters of BMW Car Club of America offer similar courses on their own and with Tire Rack. BMWCCA also offers driving schools on racetracks around the country where they teach high performance driving (not racing with some exceptions).
Bob Bondurant, Skip Barber, and other for-profit companies do too.
Any of these will help her. Teen Survival and BMW Club Teen Street is under $100 for a FULL day. High Performance Driving Schools are usually 2 FULL days for $400-600 depending on the track rental fee the club has to pay.

All of these will be a bargain if she REALLY learns how to drive. Think of the insurance deductibles you will save not to mention lives.

[HenryA]

Real driving lessons from a real driving school, in their car.

Even the best parents might, without meaning to, produce more pressure than a beginning driver can handle.

[Frankwurst]

This sounds a bit crazy but do you have any go cart tracks around there? It would help with control, concentration and confidence.

Doesn't sound crazy at all. Spend time with her. Tell her to RELAX and focus on the task at hand. Our son was driving around on a tractor when he was 9 unfortunately our daughter never got to do that so teaching her to drive was well....teaching her to drive. My wife use to tell me, "patients dear, patients" of which I have very little but I knew how important it was to our daughter so I put on my helmet (just kidding ) and perservered. It's like teaching them to ride a bicycle. They'll get it and when they do, say good-bye. :beer:

[1centaur]

The mall on Sunday morning and a different driving instructor! I'm pretty sure that your daughter is not the first novice to have coordination issues. Go to a driving school that's been around a while and interview them specifically looking for someone experienced and eager to take on the problem. Don't let her drive so long with issues that she develops coping mechanisms that suffice while failing to become a confident and calm driver.

Best guess - she's a thinker and not a feeler, and she needs the right instructor to unclutter her brain.

When I was first learning I remember two specific instructions in the first hour that made a huge difference:

1) Merging onto a highway, the gaps move the same speed as the cars. Watch the gaps.

2) Don't look at the road 50 feet in front of you (it makes you overcorrect left and right), look 200 feet ahead. Smoothed me right out.

The right thoughts at the right time made all the difference for the next 32 years and counting.

[1happygirl]

Sorry I don't have any hints to help make her a better driver, but I can identify with your child (don't worry I have parents)!

Just to reassure you I was sent to a class at the time, but didn't help really or not at all. I was the one in class with 0 hours and the class was mostly what I got initially. (some peeps had a lot of time behind wheels even at 16 yrs old)

After a series of minor fender bender/issues I am still here. My parents didn't kill me and it (apparently) just took time and growth.

My point (from the young driver point of view) is to reassure you and your child that this will pass. FWIW, the academics of class never compensated for behind the wheel time. I needed a lot apparently (years) of practice. It gets better though and one thing that might help is checking the eyes (hers-not yours) just to be sure.

Good luck and God Bless. For me and my parents this was a really rough time.

[CNY rider]

How old is your daughter?

Maybe she just isn't mentally and physically mature enough to drive yet.
Does she have a pressing reason to need to drive now or could she wait 6-12 months and try again?

My parents did not let me get a license until I was 17. I was an A student, good kid, yadda yadda, they just didn't think I was ready at 16. I did not love that decision at the time but in retrospect it was a very wise one.

[false_Aest]

Your daughter isn't ready to learn how to drive a car.

It

is

THAT

simple.



Ever deal with a kid that wasn't ready to be potty trained for 1 reason or another? Or a kid that wanted to learn how to ride a bike but just didn't have whatever it takes mentally to get what's going on?

Same difference.

Practice might help.

Time will definitely help.
------


The GF's little brother had a hard enough time getting around on his bicycle when I first met him. He really just had NO IDEA how to navigate through 3D space. Watching him try to back a car out of a driveway was both mystifying and scary. He gives up.

Flash forward 2 years. Something clicked in his brain. He declares its time to go learn. Now he "gets it." Praise Allah!

Oh yeah, at the same time, he's now able to ride his bike w/out crashing into a tree (seriously).

[Peter P.]

How's your daughter's bike riding skills?

I feel bike riding skills are a reflection of driving skills and vice versa.

I'd actually recommend developing her skills of riding a bike in traffic, even perhaps including an Effective Cycling course taught the the League of American Wheelmen.

Practice cycling in traffic with her and explain the parallels between the two skills. Refer to one vehicle when practicing skills with the other vehicle.

I'd expect when you see an improvement in traffic cycling abilities you'll see a similar improvement in driving skills.

Besides, wrecking a bike is less expensive than your car.

P.S. false_Aest gets it.

[ultraman6970]

The issue with your daughter is that apparently she just learn stuff by memory. So somebody told her what to do, she memorized the steps and that's it, if she forget something she will have an accident.

I understand your worries because is not a darn video game and is super serious matter because next time could be a car totaled u know, probably injured people too.

Good luck in this one man, is tough because u guys are now nervous because of what could happen in the street.

My sister had/have the same problems (thats why she doesnt drive), good student but her psico motors skills really sucks. She never noticed the car was tilting one side of the road and stuff but at least she knew how to shift a manual car right.

Send her to driving classes man, the liability you are being exposed looks very well founded.

Good luck.

ps: happy i'm not in your city :D

[Frankwurst]

Take her out in the country and let her drive the damn car. Country roads, right and left hand turns, stop signs and no pressure. She'll be fine. :beer:

[Birddog]

I don't know of any off the top of my head, but there is probably a video game where driving is involved (Wii style). Riding a bicycle is also good, and if she suceeds in those venues, go take her to an indoor go cart track and spend a small fortune. It will likely be cheaper than your insurance. If she's having issues now, just wait till the roads get slick.

[djg]

Do they make rubber cars?

Sorry. I don't know the answer to your question, but several proposals together make sense to me. First -- plenty of practice on an ample expanse of empty tarmac, wherever you can find it. And second -- real lessons with a real driving instructor (and not just anybody who offers lessons, but somebody good). The second bit is partly about teaching expertise and partly about alleviating whatever pressure might be felt in failing in front of a parent, which is not conducive to getting the hang of anything.

Here's a bad lesson: my dad was not a great driving teacher. A great man, and much missed, but not always patient and not ever a great driving teacher. Very early on, he took me to the Pentagon parking lot (decades before the security, and the barriers, and the little separating ridges, when a Sunday morning could offer a great expanse of open pavement). I get in the driver's seat. He gets in the passenger seat. "Go" he says. So I go. Timidly, it seems, because, with a frustrated huff, he takes his left foot and mashes it down on top of my right, and through it, to the accelerator. "Go." We accelerate, as you might guess. His foot moves and at some point he calmly says, "now stop." So I ease off the gas and ease on the brake pedal, coming, eventually, to a fairly smooth stop, or so I thought. Dad stared straight ahead. The voice of judgment: "If there had been a person standing there, you would have killed him."

Whatever else you do, don't do that.

[gomango]

We live in St. Paul, which is about an hour away from Rochester.

Our oldest son will be taking classes through Performance Driving School in Brainerd next summer. It is located at Brainerd International Raceway. Three of us in our riding group have kids going next summer.

Here's a link:

http://www.birperformance.com/portals/4/default.aspx

I really recommend this program. At least read up on it on their site, as they have loads of helpful info.

Good luck, and I am sure she'll improve with strong instruction, loads of practice, and some confidence building.

[haneriali]

The BMW Teen program is fantastic and reasonably priced, but there are others if that isn't available. They provide auto physics and dynamics along with seat time and a professional-level instructor. Well worth the time and money for her.

Otherwise, some time in less congested areas (country rides) will really help her confidence.

[rugbysecondrow]

I agree she might not be ready for the road, but one of hte training programs would likely be good for her.

As an aside, I wonder to what degree boys and girls adjust to driving differently. As a small sample, I have a small motorized toy car in the back yard. I watch boy after boy sit down, grab the wheel, foot on the pedal and they just drive. The girl seem to come about it must less instinctivly. They needed instruction, coaxing, positive reinforcement etc etc. Granted, these are 4 year olds, but even at that age, boys seem to be more naturally able to do it.

[LesMiner]

Anybody have suggestions -- other than just "practice, practice, practice" -- on how to make a bad teen driver good?

When I lived in Rochester I sent my two sons to a private driving instructor. I do not recall the name but the woman had been an over the road truck driver. She was highly recommeded and very good. She taught them to drive stick right from the beginning. There are probably other driving schools around.

[Germany_chris]

My sister took a 2 day class at Mid-Ohio Sports Car Course it really changer her life. She went timid and scared and came back from the couse confident and correct.

It looks like you have a track in the state called Brainerd International Raceway. There is a driving school located there that has a teen program.

http://www.birperformance.com/portals/4/default.aspx

looks like it's $350 for the day, you provide the car.

[William]

.....Our son was driving around on a tractor when he was 9 unfortunately our daughter never got to do that so teaching her to drive was well....

When our son was younger you could put him in one of those battery run carn and he would be running into things left and right...when trying to go in a straight line. When he was a little older he would sit in my lap while I drove the Deere around the property. Then I let him try the tractor and it clicked. Now he loves and does great driving around mowing the property while I watch sipping lemonade ( :D ). I'm doing the same with our daughter now and she's due for solo driving.

Our son is only 13 right now but he's already asking when he gets to drive the old Landcruiser. :crap: :)



William

[67-59]

Thanks to all for the suggestions.

In response to a few questions -- she turned 17 almost two months ago. We tried pushing to get her to practice last year when she first got her permit, but she said she wasn't ready, so we backed off. This spring, she told us she was ready, so we have been trying to work with her. If she isn't ready now, not sure when she will be. She plans to go to college in about a year in a much bigger city than we live in now, so I fear that if she doesn't learn soon, the time may never be right.

We will definitely go to some parking lots and such for now. And I appreciate the suggestions for the Tire Rack/BMW courses. The next one that's in our area that we can make it to will be in mid-September, so we're signing her up. Other than that, we'll be looking for other instructors to help supplement her mandatory six driving sessions.

[pjm]

http://www.autoweek.com/article/20110628/CARNEWS/110629871

[Louis]

An idea that might help:

Suggest that from now on when she is a passenger in the car instead of just sitting there passively (or texting her friends) she should look around and get a feel for how the whole system works.

Basically it's flows of cars and driving safely involves joining, following and leaving those flows in a controlled and predictable manner. Of course there's solo stuff like parallel parking into a small space, but that sort of detail can come later.

With some practice (and while not worrying about controlling her own car) she should be able to pick up the cues that tell you when the driver in the lane to your right is about to move over in front of you. She can get used to the feeling of having an 18-wheeler right next to her on the highway, the process of watching other cars at a four-way stop to figure out when it's your time to go, etc. etc.

Perhaps getting a "big-picture" feel of how things work will help her be more comfortable. Or maybe it will just confuse her and make things worse. I guess it depends on how her brain best processes things and solves problems.

Good Luck

[67-59]

Louis - great idea, which we are in the process of trying. In the past, I have asked her to ride up front and pay more attention, but I haven't required it. After last night, I told her that daydreaming in the back seat is no longer going to be an option.

[little.man]

Here is one suggestion.

Took a corporate class called "Conversational Driving". While you are driving you tell the instructor what you see and what you are doing.

"Stop sign up ahead. Slowing for stop sign. Letting other car through. Now going through stop sign. Turning right at next corner. Putting blinker on...."

It should force her to focus on what she is doing and not letting her mind wander. It will let you know what she sees and is anticipating to do. Have her keep talking constantly about what she is seeing, what she is doing and what she is anticipating to do.

Good Luck,

Mark

[drewski]

Anybody have suggestions -- other than just "practice, practice, practice" -- on how to make a bad teen driver good?

Our daughter has had her temporary permit for several weeks and (much as it pains me to say this) is just an awful driver. Both my wife and I have gone out driving with her and have gone out of our way to be patient, provide constructive advice, etc, but our daughter seems to have both confidence and dexterity issues. She has now had two accidents -- thank goodness both were minor -- in about 15 hours of driving. The first was when I was out with her on a rural road: She was making a right hand turn and never steered back to the left to straighten out the car and come out of the turn...so we went right into a ditch on the right side of the road. She said she "forgot" to steer back. Then there was earlier today: She was with my wife in a parking lot, coming toward another car a bit fast so my wife told her to hit the brake. She hit the gas instead, and blasted the guy. Like I said - fortunately there were no injuries in either case.

I know new drivers aren't perfect, but she has now had more accidents and caused more damage in one month than my wife and I have had collectively in 60 years of driving.

My wife and I have both tried to provide patient advice (about steering, proper speed, safe distance behind other cars, etc), but it never seems to sink in. Also, this is a new thing for us: she always has been a straight A student, never been in trouble, etc. So it's the first time we have struggled with trying to get her to do something that she won't/can't do.

Thoughts on how to constructlvely address the issue? I'm really struggling to come up with the proper way to handle this....


Get her a beater car so she does not put you in the poor house.
Crash helmet also. Put some empty glass lliquor bottles in the floor in front of the back seat and see if she can drive without knocking them over.

She might need to learn some positive visualization skills.
Meditation/yoga.

Andrew

[67-59]

Get her a beater car so she does not put you in the poor house.
Crash helmet also. Put some empty glass lliquor bottles in the floor in front of the back seat and see if she can drive without knocking them over.

She might need to learn some positive visualization skills.
Meditation/yoga.

Andrew

Fortunately, we're not worried about the loss of the car. It's a 10-year old Honda Odyssey with 110K+ miles on it -- still recent enough to be solid and safe, but the FMV isn't so high that it would break us to replace. We're more worried about her trashing the other guy's Mercedes or BMW, and the impact that would have on insurance rates. Or about injuring herself or another driver or pedestrian.

The good news is that she had her third session with the driving instructor today, and reports are that she did much better. Like many have said, just having someone other than mom or dad in the car might help quite a bit....

[Sheldon4209]

I taught driver's ed for 11 summers several years ago. I agree with driving in a large empty parking lot. Start by practicing starting and stopping for a few minutes. She will develop the "instinct" to hit the brake when in trouble. Have her stop several times even with a line or beside a post. Repeat the starting and stopping a few times each time she drives until she seems to have it down.

Next in an empty lot practice turns until you feel comfortable with her turning, have her drive up and down the rows pretending that a car is parked in each space. When she moves from the lot to the street make right turns and have her set her speed before she turns. That way she thinks about one thing at a time, speed and then the turn. As she turns she should cover her brake (keep foot over brake pedal). Also insist that she signals and watch the direction of the signal. Beginning drivers sometimes turn the wrong direction.

When she is on the street, keep her out of tight, crowded, and fast situations.
Stay on side streets and start with right turns. As she becomes more confident have her drive in more traffic and make left turns when you can see on coming traffic. Have her drive for a few minutes and slowly increase time. If she "weaves" tell her to look farther down the road and not just in front of the car.

My guess is that she is nervous and she needs more practice in and empty lot before driving on the street. Try to stay calm and give her as much practice as possible. Good luck.

[avalonracing]

Hey she's more ready for the road than these two people that I saw while riding today:

1) A woman driving with a child in a child seat in the back. The driver was putting on makeup in the visor mirror with one hand while holding a cell phone in the other... Yes, while moving.

2) An older man stops his Mercedes SUV in the MIDDLE of a blind 110º corner. No hazards, no warning. Why? To pull out his cell phone, slowly dial, and start driving again. I was climbing in the opposite direction and he probably heard my dissatisfaction with his choices right through his closed windows.

[FlashUNC]

+1 to all the suggestions so far.

The training school at a track may do wonders, as well as maybe being a bit more patient through the process. Another suggestion I'd second is there has to be some kind of go-kart track nearby that caters to corporate events and hobbyists and the like. Getting track time there could be a cost effective (not to mention saving your own vehicle) way of building up some skills and confidence.

It sounds like there's still a bit of information overload going on with her, and that very little is "second nature" to her at this point. The process of having to think about everything is delaying her reaction times, forcing mistakes, etc. That leads to a crisis in confidence, which leads to more thinking and worrying, etc. The two crashes within a month don't help either.

Looking back, I now realize my parents sort of brought me along in driving with a progression on the farm that start with using the riding mower when I was 9 or so, then throwing me on the full-size tractor to cut the horse pastures when I was 12. By the time I was 15 learning to drive, the fundamental mechanics were the same, stuff just happened quicker, and with other idiots on the road.