Shimano Electronic Ultegra Di2 unveiled

[bike22]

http://www.cyclinside.com/upload/Category_3/Sector_21/Holder_61/Content_2848/11022011-IMG_0793.jpg

http://www.cyclinside.com/Technews/Biciclette/Componenti/Ultegra-Di2-Eccolo-Lo-abbiamo-provato.html

[thegunner]

the Di2 stood for "Digital Integrated Intelligence"

it'll never be Ui2

edit: my comment came out sounding way more d-bagish than i thought when i posted it haha

[dnades]

any way to read it in English?

[dancinkozmo]

....butt ugly
....but it will probably work amazing :banana:

[Grant McLean]

any way to read it in English?

http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_url?doit=done&tt=url&intl=1&fr=bf-home&trurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cyclinside.com%2FTechnews%2 FBiciclette%2FComponenti%2FUltegra-Di2-Eccolo-Lo-abbiamo-provato.html&lp=it_en&btnTrUrl=Translate

[phcollard]

http://road.cc/content/news/37405-shimano-confirm-launch-ultegra-di2

http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/shimano-ultegra-di2-first-look-30616

[DRietz]

All Shimano dealers have known about this for several months. I think we're getting a demo set up in the next month or two.

[dnades]

thanks for the links. Grant, that translation site rocks! Very interesting choices of wording...

[dd74]

I'm waiting for Campy. Team Movistar seems to work well with it.

[Ahneida Ride]

How may frns ?

[bagochips3]

How may frns ?

According to the Bike Radar article:

"This second-tier group is expected to be around half the price of the flagship Dura-Ace set"

"While Ultegra Di2 will still carry a premium over its non-electronic variant, it could cost less than the non-electronic form of Dura-Ace."

[Louis]

I can see how this whole pricing thing is going to be tricky. They probably don't want to cannibalize "mechanical" DA, but if Ultegra Di2 is in the same price ballpark that might happen.

[rice rocket]

I can see how this whole pricing thing is going to be tricky. They probably don't want to cannibalize "mechanical" DA, but if Ultegra Di2 is in the same price ballpark that might happen.

Cannibalizing mech DA is inevitable, but what do they stand to lose? They make (lots of) money either way.

[Louis]

I wonder if they'll ever drop mechanical DA and Ultegra? (I sure hope not.)

You might have to go all the way down to 105 to get all-mechanical stuff.

[Germany_chris]

And I still don't want a battery on my bike..

Plug your derailleurs into you computer for basic diagnostics :no:

[palincss]

Plug your derailleurs into you computer for basic diagnostics :no:

As opposed to sending the entire group back to Shimano for diagnosis, so I guess that's an advantage...

[oldguy00]

The only thing wrong with this group is that it says Ultegra.
Some people can't handle not having the top (DA) group......(guilty....)....
:beer:

[dancinkozmo]

The only thing wrong with this group is that it says Ultegra.
Some people can't handle not having the top (DA) group......(guilty....)....
:beer:

...im the other way, im not a great rider ( i.e. i am slow ) and feel too self conscious to show up for a group ride on a top shelf frame and components .

..i like ultegra and im thinking this electro group may make it easy to pick up 6600 or 6700 stuff for a song !

[oldguy00]

Slightly OT, has anyone here who is not a mechanic tried to setup the Di2 system on their own? Are there good step by step instructions available?

[oldpotatoe]

I can see how this whole pricing thing is going to be tricky. They probably don't want to cannibalize "mechanical" DA, but if Ultegra Di2 is in the same price ballpark that might happen.

Price said to be about the same as mechanical DA and most probably, individual components are not cross compatible so if you fall and kill your Di2, about $850, rear derailleur, cannot get a cheaper, Ultegra one.

[oldpotatoe]

Slightly OT, has anyone here who is not a mechanic tried to setup the Di2 system on their own? Are there good step by step instructions available?

It's really easy. limit screws, plug the stuff in, limit screws...small adjust in the center cogs in the rear....

[ultraman6970]

Bad news for campy again. Campy for sure will roll their stuff all together later for lower groups but the issue is that shimano will have almost all the market already.

Better for campy to be cheap now and shift a lot of cogs in one round.

[Germany_chris]

Bad news for campy again. Campy for sure will roll their stuff all together later for lower groups but the issue is that shimano will have almost all the market already.

Better for campy to be cheap now and shift a lot of cogs in one round.

I think there is enough campy loyalty to make electric campy a success..Remember campy folks tend to be on the higher end (money) of the cycling spectrum..another think Campy loyalists are almost cult like in their affection..I think Sram will do the cheap version..

Geez how long before there is an integrated OBD port??

Were/are cables really that bad?

Chris

[ultraman6970]

No idea about and OBD port, but is not a bad idea. What do you mean with bad cables??

[Ryun]

Slightly OT, has anyone here who is not a mechanic tried to setup the Di2 system on their own? Are there good step by step instructions available?
Park tools has a nice description and the manual that comes with it is very clear.
like Pete said, it is easier than most mechanical and once you set it, forget it. no tweaking as things settle in.

[Germany_chris]

No idea about and OBD port, but is not a bad idea. What do you mean with bad cables??

I mean are cables a problem is electric shifting a solution to a problem or a solution waiting for a problem.

[Elefantino]

"Owners will be able to plug the groupset into their home computer in order to carry out basic diagnostic tests."

Probably PCs only, not Macs.

[DRietz]

So, pricing looks like around $1400 for just the electrical bits. $2000 for the electrical bits and the other stuff (cassette, crankset, chain, brakes).

[dancinkozmo]

So, pricing looks like around $1400 for just the electrical bits. $2000 for the electrical bits and the other stuff (cassette, crankset, chain, brakes).

....i paid 550 for an ultegra 6600 groupset from pbk about a year ago...prices are out of control

[PaulE]

....i paid 550 for an ultegra 6600 groupset from pbk about a year ago...prices are out of control

Once Trek, Specialized, Giant, etc order a few shipping containers full of the stuff for their OEM builds and sell less bikes than they planned, they will back door the Ultegra Di2 groups to PBK and it will be selling at a steep discount too.

[Joachim]

So, pricing looks like around $1400 for just the electrical bits. $2000 for the electrical bits and the other stuff (cassette, crankset, chain, brakes).

I'm definitely selling off my BNIB Super Record 11 bits. I want the $2000 Ultegra Di2 to put on my Merckx MXL.


Not really.....

[pdmtong]

Other than weight penalty, I wonder if there will actually be tech improvement over DA Di2?

Or, what is ultergra electric giving up versus DA electric (other than weight)

wasnt 6700 mech more refined than 7900 mech since they had another year to iron things out?

I would love to have electric shifting on my bikes. An afternoon spent last spring on a Di2 tarmac sl3 prived that hands down

[dd74]

Bad news for campy again. Campy for sure will roll their stuff all together later for lower groups but the issue is that shimano will have almost all the market already.

Better for campy to be cheap now and shift a lot of cogs in one round.

Honestly, I think Campy is slowly separating itself from Shimano as more of an elite class of components. It's like the old car buff phenomena of Porsche (or in the case of Shimano - 240-z) vs. Ferrari. You can't go wrong with either as a performance car. It's just a matter of personal taste.

[bike22]

$1600 for upgrade (shifters and derailleurs)
$2289 for the whole group

but remember, when the dura-ace di2 first came out it was $5000 for the kit, now (2?) (3?) years later it is about half that.

[that guy]

The real game changer is that it will soon be appearing on complete bikes in the $3,000-$3,500 range. If you were somewhat new to the sport, would you really buy a mechanical bike over the "whiz-bang" electric group? They're going to sell those bikes like crazy, and take back a chunk of SRAM's current OEM dominance.

[Bruce K]

The only thing that might interest me would be if they do a TT version of the Ultegra.

Having shifting at both bar ends and aerobar ends would be nice (but then I would need a new base bar :crap: ).

BK

[bicycletricycle]

the idea of electronic components replacing mechanical makes me vomit inside.

[dancinkozmo]

I think there is enough campy loyalty to make electric campy a success..Remember campy folks tend to be on the higher end (money) of the cycling spectrum..another think Campy loyalists are almost cult like in their affection..I think Sram will do the cheap version..

Chris

..hmmm japanese electronics vs. italian electronics, i wonder which will work better, thats a tough call..... :)

[oldpotatoe]

$1600 for upgrade (shifters and derailleurs)
$2289 for the whole group

but remember, when the dura-ace di2 first came out it was $5000 for the kit, now (2?) (3?) years later it is about half that.

Where can you get a DA Di2 9 piece(battery) group for $2500??

I think if ya gotta get electric shifting(slower BTW than mechanical, one shift at a time), get 5700 crank/BB/cogset/chain/brakes and then Ultegra Di2 shifters/FD/RD/battery.

I've done that for a few Di2..using a different crank/cogset/brakes, etc.

[oldpotatoe]

Bad news for campy again. Campy for sure will roll their stuff all together later for lower groups but the issue is that shimano will have almost all the market already.

Better for campy to be cheap now and shift a lot of cogs in one round.

Bad news for sram...an electric group, OEM, for the same $ as REd(yellow?black?).

I think one overestimates the level of Di2 now in the market and how much Ultegra Di2 will go into the market. It's still expensive and many will still opt for DA mechanical rather than a downgraded group for the same $. IMHO.

[Uncle Jam's Army]

Where can you get a DA Di2 9 piece(battery) group for $2500??

I think if ya gotta get electric shifting(slower BTW than mechanical, one shift at a time), get 5700 crank/BB/cogset/chain/brakes and then Ultegra Di2 shifters/FD/RD/battery.

I've done that for a few Di2..using a different crank/cogset/brakes, etc.

A year ago I bought a full Di2 Group (not the upgrade kit) for under $2400 from PBK.

[oldpotatoe]

A year ago I bought a full Di2 Group (not the upgrade kit) for under $2400 from PBK.

Hellavadeal..$2060 for Di2 upgrade kit today...no brakes, crank, BB, cogset, chain....'probably' not $340 for those items.

[Grant McLean]

Bad news for sram...an electric group, OEM, for the same $ as REd(yellow?black?).

I think one overestimates the level of Di2 now in the market and how much Ultegra Di2 will go into the market. It's still expensive and many will still opt for DA mechanical rather than a downgraded group for the same $. IMHO.


I just wonder what the market reaction will be to the price, broadly speaking,
will there be sticker shock with Ultegra complete bikes on the bikeshop floors
for what price-point, $5,000? I can see people shaking their head and sayin'
that much for ultegra? These won't be bikes with fancy wheels, or top end
carbon frame, but middle of the road stuff that isn't exactly cutting edge.


-g

[ClutchCargo]

How may frns ?

what's an frn?
never mind.

[oldpotatoe]

I just wonder what the market reaction will be to the price, broadly speaking,
will there be sticker shock with Ultegra complete bikes on the bikeshop floors
for what price-point, $5,000? I can see people shaking their head and sayin'
that much for ultegra? These won't be bikes with fancy wheels, or top end
carbon frame, but middle of the road stuff that isn't exactly cutting edge.


-g

I agree. Altho somewhat backward, many bikes feature the same frame and then component 'upgrades'(should be the same components with frame upgrades but that's a whole 'nother story'). If a frame with Ultegra Di2 sits next to the same frame with mechanical DA...not sure how that will play out. Another thing that will sell is the same high end frame, with Ultegra mechanical...for $1000 less. Components are being sold as the reason for one bike or another when the frame is much more important. Most components are consumables afterall(ders, cogsets, chainrings, chains, shifters)...the frame is not or at least should not be.

Kinda like getting a high end car with plastic wheel covers...reminds me of Mustangs with anemic 6 cylinder engines..sheep in wolf's clothing type thing.

[FlashUNC]

I really missed a meeting on the electronic stuff somewhere.

[cmg]

so those did shimano fiqure out a way to make proprietary batteries? that way you can spend an additional $200 for the special batteries. there's got be a way to make it complicated so that the average rider has to go to a shop.

[Joachim]

I have seen how a car cell phone charger (bought at W-Mart) was stripped and then used as a Di2 battery charger....

[gdw]

"I have seen how a car cell phone charger (bought at W-Mart) was stripped and then used as a Di2 battery charger...."

Post of the day. :beer:

[cody.wms]

I just wonder what the market reaction will be to the price, broadly speaking,
will there be sticker shock with Ultegra complete bikes on the bikeshop floors
for what price-point, $5,000? I can see people shaking their head and sayin'
that much for ultegra? These won't be bikes with fancy wheels, or top end
carbon frame, but middle of the road stuff that isn't exactly cutting edge.


-g

I walked by one of the local shops this weekend. They had a Madone in the window, with Force, for $4700. I didn't see anything particularly mind-blowing to justify this pricepoint - really looked like a middle of the road bike.

In 2004, the Trek 5200 with Ultegra retailed for $2500. I'm not sure what happened over the last ~7 years. A Honda Accord is roughly the same price for a base model from 2004 til now.

[RPS]

Is that a new finish (color) for Ultegra? Not sure I can tell from pictures if dark grey, black, or what?

I hope they make it available in regular group also. Nice to have choices.

[thwart]

the idea of electronic components replacing mechanical makes me vomit inside.1+

[Der_Kruscher]

I wonder how many bikes we'll see that are packaged with an FSA Gossamer crankset, Tektro brakes, Alex wheels house brand stem/seatpost/saddle, and 105 level chain and cassette on an entry level carbon frame to hit a price point. If they can get the price down to near $3K I'll bet a lot of bikes could be sold. Most of us here are not the average consumer when talking bikes. I worked in a shop for a few years that catered to beginner and "enthusiast" level riders and I have no doubt that hanging Ultegra Di2 shifters and derailleurs on an otherwise cheap/ho-hum bike will be enough to sell it.

[Elefantino]

I walked by one of the local shops this weekend. They had a Madone in the window, with Force, for $4700. I didn't see anything particularly mind-blowing to justify this pricepoint - really looked like a middle of the road bike.

In 2004, the Trek 5200 with Ultegra retailed for $2500. I'm not sure what happened over the last ~7 years. A Honda Accord is roughly the same price for a base model from 2004 til now.
Thankfully, the Accord isn't made out of carbon fiber.

[that guy]

Is that a new finish (color) for Ultegra? Not sure I can tell from pictures if dark grey, black, or what?

I hope they make it available in regular group also. Nice to have choices.

Yes, it's a new color. "Glossy Gray".

There will be a mechanical version too.

[RPS]

Yes, it's a new color. "Glossy Gray".

There will be a mechanical version too.
Thanks.

Do you have a link to the information? I'd like to read more about the new groups.

[palincss]

so those did shimano fiqure out a way to make proprietary batteries? that way you can spend an additional $200 for the special batteries. there's got be a way to make it complicated so that the average rider has to go to a shop.

Well, the camera companies certainly have done so. They're called "chipped" batteries and the computer inside the camera can readily detect an imitation. Often the imitations work just fine except that the state-of-charge indicator doesn't work, always reads full charge, and when they run too low the camera just crashes and shuts off.

[dd74]

What do any of you bet that mechanical groups will eventually be eliminated from Shimano's line, except for the lowest line group sets? You know, sort of like the slow death of the manual transmission for many car manufacturers.

[Mark McM]

What do any of you bet that mechanical groups will eventually be eliminated from Shimano's line, except for the lowest line group sets? You know, sort of like the slow death of the manual transmission for many car manufacturers.

Most cars in Europe are sold with manual transmissions (about 80%).

[RPS]

I’d assume the 50/30T double chainring combination for cyclo-cross is a misprint; or is it?



Getting serious about cyclo-cross

Shimano have also acknowledged the growth in popularity of cyclo-cross, particularly in the US, with the introduction of a fleet of non-series components for the discipline. New 46/36T and 50/30T double chainring options will be fully compatible with all of the company's standard 10-speed groupsets.

http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/shimano-ultegra-di2-first-look-30616

[that guy]

Thanks.

Do you have a link to the information? I'd like to read more about the new groups.

Try this: http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/shimano-ultegra-groupset-in-glossy-gray-first-look-30424/

[dd74]

Most cars in Europe are sold with manual transmissions (about 80%).
Which is why I like driving in Europe. :)

[jpw]

My question is this. If Ultegra electronic works just fine what more can Di2 offer?
Why buy Di2 for more $?

The answer? The next Di2 has to be wireless with sequential gear changing, and NOT from paddle shifters behind the brake levers, and WITH several different lever choices with different hood shapes, AND with hydro braking as an option.

[ultraman6970]

U missed the part when the computer tells you the lotto numbers for that training wheels, so you could pay for the stuff easily.

[Ahneida Ride]

Most cars in Europe are sold with manual transmissions (about 80%).

and you save Erns too ..... gotta think of a better name

[Ahneida Ride]

and there is the super Di2 ...

The computer generates $$$$ outa thin air.
It pays for itself in no time.

[soulspinner]

Rather have a chorus group for half the price and its 400 grams lighter.

[palincss]

Since it's all just software and can be reprogrammed (witness the DI2 reprogrammed to do sequential half-stepping) is there any reason why it couldn't be reprogrammed to handle Campagnolo 11?

[RPS]

Since it's all just software and can be reprogrammed (witness the DI2 reprogrammed to do sequential half-stepping) is there any reason why it couldn't be reprogrammed to handle Campagnolo 11?
That's an excellent question. :beer:

I expect it depends on how actual derailleur position is fed back to computer. If on a continuous basis I’d expect there is a chance it can be modified with software, but if in predefined increments limited by mechanical design then probably not.

The half-step programming shows the system can be reprogrammed as to shifting order but doesn’t confirm whether it can move the RD in increments that don’t match Shimano 10 cog spacing.

[ultraman6970]

We need somebody willing to open a Di2 and able to read the eprom/s that is/are inside of that thing.

Sincerely i dont see why it should'nt be able to do it. Is just an chip that controls how much to move the motors, that can be changed.

Have you guys seen the electric shifting a guy built in europe? Even an american built one just to make a point.

[sjbraun]

Fairwheel cracked the Di2 code and built a sequential shifting mountain bike.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/fairwheel-bikes-creates-stunning-sequential-shifting-di2-equipped-hardtail

[that guy]

The Fairwheel bike is a great example of the potential. Check out what Firefly has done. (http://fireflybicycles.com/1587)

If Shimano were smart (or had the resources) they should publish a developers guide similar to what Microsoft has done (http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2011/06/microsoft-kinect-hackers/) with the XBox Kinect.

Imagine the possibilities....

[jpw]

Where's the battery on the Firefly?

[happycampyer]

Where's the battery on the Firefly?Hidden in the custom seatpost ("The post features a lightweight internal clamping mechanism made by ENVE and an integrated battery powering the Di2 shifting system (adding even more stealth)").

[RPS]

Fairwheel cracked the Di2 code and built a sequential shifting mountain bike.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/fairwheel-bikes-creates-stunning-sequential-shifting-di2-equipped-hardtail
This is a 2X10 setup which means the RD is probably dealing with the same cog spacing that it was designed for. The modifications are limited to when to shift, not how far the RD should move. I view this as two different problems.

If used on an 11-speed or retrofitted to a 9-speed or anything else with different cog spacing "something" has to tell the RD to stop at a given location. And that's the information I think is missing. How does Shimano control the RD's movement? I have no clue but I'm interested in learning.

[Germany_chris]

This is a 2X10 setup which means the RD is probably dealing with the same cog spacing that it was designed for. The modifications are limited to when to shift, not how far the RD should move. I view this as two different problems.

If used on an 11-speed or retrofitted to a 9-speed or anything else with different cog spacing "something" has to tell the RD to stop at a given location. And that's the information I think is missing. How does Shimano control the RD's movement? I have no clue but I'm interested in learning.

I'm quite sure that bit of code can be cracked more easily than the when. It's just telling the derailleur how much to move, and to top it it's not that drastic of a change..

[palincss]

I'm quite sure that bit of code can be cracked more easily than the when. It's just telling the derailleur how much to move, and to top it it's not that drastic of a change..

And surely Shimano would be planning ahead for the day when they leap over Campagnolo's 11 and go straight to the 14 sprocket cluster they have a patent on, don't you think? The amount to move must be a settable parameter. Nothing else would be logical.

[Germany_chris]

And surely Shimano would be planning ahead for the day when they leap over Campagnolo's 11 and go straight to the 14 sprocket cluster they have a patent on, don't you think? The amount to move must be a settable parameter. Nothing else would be logical.

And I still don't want a battery on my bike or have to plug my derailleurs into my computer for diagnostics :rolleyes: ..even Campy derailleurs.. :D

[RPS]

I'm quite sure that bit of code can be cracked more easily than the when. It's just telling the derailleur how much to move, and to top it it's not that drastic of a change..
IMO software modifications alone can’t work unless the hardware is also compatible. So it may work, but I don’t know how you can be certain unless you know how the hardware operates.

The derailleur has to interface with the software in one way or another; and it wouldn’t surprise me at all if Shimano intentionally designed it so that it can only index in increments that match their 10-speed cassette spacing. In the future if they want to run 14 speed or anything else they can just come out with a new model designed for that application as they’ve done with other groups. That would force buyers into having to buy complete (or upgrade) groups instead of just a few parts.

In my experience with computer-controlled packaging equipment that use linear actuators for movement, adjustments normally can be made in very small increments because the hardware is designed for near-infinite adjustability. However, I also know that if Shimano wanted to prevent use with other cog spacing, they could have built-in limitations into their hardware (i.e. – rear derailleur).

[palincss]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory

[RPS]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory
That aside, do you know something about how the RD works (specifically how it communicates with computer) that you’d like to share with the rest of us? :rolleyes:

[jpw]

IMO software modifications alone can’t work unless the hardware is also compatible. So it may work, but I don’t know how you can be certain unless you know how the hardware operates.

The derailleur has to interface with the software in one way or another; and it wouldn’t surprise me at all if Shimano intentionally designed it so that it can only index in increments that match their 10-speed cassette spacing. In the future if they want to run 14 speed or anything else they can just come out with a new model designed for that application as they’ve done with other groups. That would force buyers into having to buy complete (or upgrade) groups instead of just a few parts.

In my experience with computer-controlled packaging equipment that use linear actuators for movement, adjustments normally can be made in very small increments because the hardware is designed for near-infinite adjustability. However, I also know that if Shimano wanted to prevent use with other cog spacing, they could have built-in limitations into their hardware (i.e. – rear derailleur).

How will 14 cogs fit in the space between a hub flange and dropout?

[Mark McM]

How will 14 cogs fit in the space between a hub flange and dropout?

Shimano already has the patents:

http://www.campyonly.com/images/shimano/shimano_14_cass_small.gif http://www.campyonly.com/images/shimano/shimano_14_chain_small.gif

[bike22]

How will 14 cogs fit in the space between a hub flange and dropout?
people said the same thing about 7, 8, 9, 10, and 11 cogs

[jpw]

Shimano already has the patents:

http://www.campyonly.com/images/shimano/shimano_14_cass_small.gif http://www.campyonly.com/images/shimano/shimano_14_chain_small.gif

Is this a super super narrow chain?

Or, is this a system that only works with a new Shimano hub design?

[RPS]

Is this a super super narrow chain?

Or, is this a system that only works with a new Shimano hub design?
Yes, the chain appears to be much narrower than a conventional chain because of its design. You can read more about it in the patent link:

http://patents.com/us-5921881.html

Below is a larger scale picture showing how radical the chain is compared to standard bicycle chain. Notice they applied for the patent about 5 years ago, so if we haven’t seen it by now it’s possible they may no longer be pursuing it.

My educated engineering guess is that the curved plates may be the weak “link” (pun intended) in the system’s design.

[pdmtong]

My LBS has three electric ultegra madones on the floor. You can see the "improvements" in the wiring. I have to say the component finish will be polarizing. I thought it was "ok" ... (prefer the 6720 "ice gray", but hey that's me).

six series madone, made in wisconsin, ultegra electric....$5400.

[BumbleBeeDave]

The Fairwheel bike is a great example of the potential. Check out what Firefly has done. (http://fireflybicycles.com/1587)

If Shimano were smart (or had the resources) they should publish a developers guide similar to what Microsoft has done (http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2011/06/microsoft-kinect-hackers/) with the XBox Kinect.

Imagine the possibilities....

That Firefly is truly TRICK. I hope the (obviously well off) guy they built it for doesn't get t-boned by a taxi on his first commute.

BBD

[oldpotatoe]

That Firefly is truly TRICK. I hope the (obviously well off) guy they built it for doesn't get t-boned by a taxi on his first commute.

BBD

No fenders? Doesn't rain in Boston?..plus the rear brake housing is too short at the rear brake. :p

[54ny77]

Question for Di2 (or Ultegra electronic)--how can an actuator do a better job of managing shifting under load than a cable? Does the cable stretch so much that the force exerted on the derailleurs is less than what a little electronically activated motor can do at/on the component?

[SuperColnago]

Not easily repairable, - repair by replacement maintenance philosophy.....

cheers

And Technology refresh rate will lead to 6 month renewal rates.....yikes

Cheers

And I still don't want a battery on my bike..

Plug your derailleurs into you computer for basic diagnostics :no:

[victoryfactory]

Question for Di2 (or Ultegra electronic)--how can an actuator do a better job of managing shifting under load than a cable? Does the cable stretch so much that the force exerted on the derailleurs is less than what a little electronically activated motor can do at/on the component?

any system that can get the message to the gears electrically is going to be more
precise than a mechanical version that has to deal with more friction, slack and
wasted energy due to lever, bar, cable and frame flexing.

In a car, an automatic trans will always try to perform according to it's settings
regardless of driver input. A manual trans in the hands of an expert gets better performance, in the
hands of less experienced driver , not.

The electric motor attempts to move the
derailleur the same way every time, whereas when you are pulling the cable to
shift under load,your speed and force changes as well as the entire system of
cable, stops, frame, bars, etc. That's why it's sometimes easier to click down a gear accurately under load
(don't forget, we let up on the pedals a split second, we do
this unconsciously)
than it is to pull up a gear under load by cable shifting.

There is plenty of force generated either way to get the job done, the E shifting
will just be more precise and faster if not as aesthetically attractive
or affordable or even necessary to some.

The ability to make sure your shifts are completed smoothly
is still a function of the design of the chain and cogs and the pedaling speed
and force that is being applied at the time of the shift, something that every
experienced rider (except maybe Andy Schleck) does by second nature.

VF

[Mark McM]

There is plenty of force generated either way to get the job done, the E shifting
will just be more precise and faster if not as aesthetically attractive
or affordable or even necessary to some.

Then why is there a general consensus that Shimano Di-2 electronic shifting is slower than cable shifting? When I tried it out, that was my experience (slower shifting with the Di-2 shifting). I also found that it was less precise, in the sense that I purpose synchronize crank position and pedal loads with the cable shift lever travel, whereas the electronic system can not sense crank position or pedal force.

(By the way, this is why automobile paddle shifters are a poor analogy to electronic derailleur shifting. While automobile paddle shifters move the drive gears electronically, they also must synchronously control the clutch and the throttle positioner - this is a function that electronic derailleurs can not do.)

[victoryfactory]

Then why is there a general consensus that Shimano Di-2 electronic shifting is slower than cable shifting? When I tried it out, that was my experience (slower shifting with the Di-2 shifting). I also found that it was less precise, in the sense that I purpose synchronize crank position and pedal loads with the cable shift lever travel, whereas the electronic system can not sense crank position or pedal force.

I was speaking strictly from assumption.
The one time that I tried DI2 I thought it was faster shifting.
Maybe we haven't learned to synchronize our pedaling
with the new system yet the way we
all have with cable shifting?
That could explain the feeling of slower shifts when we are really experiencing
a lack of sync?

Or, lacking much experience with the actual group, is it possible that the
setup has some kind of lag time that the cable shifting doesn't have?

Interesting

[Chance]

(By the way, this is why automobile paddle shifters are a poor analogy to electronic derailleur shifting. While automobile paddle shifters move the drive gears electronically, they also must synchronously control the clutch and the throttle positioner - this is a function that electronic derailleurs can not do.)
Agree that it's not a good comparison in many ways.

Original paddle shifting transmissions were reportedly a disappointment to many drivers (particularly in non-racing applications) because they were too slow and or too abrupt in their shifting. Electrical actuators took too long to accomplish smooth shifts in a timely manner.

That’s one of the main reasons the dual clutch transmission has become so popular for these applications. The next gear is already engaged and all controls have to do is open one clutch while close another. Very fast and smooth shifts are accomplished without tearing mechanical components into tiny bits. Actual time to reengage transmission gear sets is done while the car is driving along in another gear so it can be done relatively slow without it affecting the car’s performance.

In that sense bicycle electronic drivetrain technology compares even less. It would be cool though if we could preselect our bike’s next gear and then by the push of a button engage it near instantaneously without hesitation or delays.

[El Cap]

I like the idea. I can imagine when shifting goes wireless it could be an interesting training tool as coaches can shift gears remotely for riders (don't know why they would want to... but they might..)

[cfox]

I'm baffled by folks who insist Di2 shifts slower than mech...it doesn't; it's faster, esp. in the front. Sorry, but there isn't a human alive that can actuate a cable faster than an electron can travel to a motor. Multiple gear shifts? If you can operate a computer mouse, you can fly through the cassette with more precision than multi gear changing function in mech systems.

[saab2000]

Electrons travel at the speed of light. The rear derailleur does not. Nor does the front. This was confirmed by scientists at CERN in Switzerland who conducted tests on Di2 particles at the Large Hadron Collider.

[cfox]

Electrons travel at the speed of light. The rear derailleur does not. Nor does the front. This was confirmed by scientists at CERN in Switzerland who conducted tests on Di2 particles at the Large Hadron Collider.
it's about time they did something useful with that glorified parking garage.

[oldpotatoe]

I'm baffled by folks who insist Di2 shifts slower than mech...it doesn't; it's faster, esp. in the front. Sorry, but there isn't a human alive that can actuate a cable faster than an electron can travel to a motor. Multiple gear shifts? If you can operate a computer mouse, you can fly through the cassette with more precision than multi gear changing function in mech systems.

Probably true unless you want to shift more than one lower gear at a time, then mech is faster(sweep), rather than push-push-push.

[troymac]

I like the idea. I can imagine when shifting goes wireless it could be an interesting training tool as coaches can shift gears remotely for riders (don't know why they would want to... but they might..)
Wonder if someone could wirelessly hack into the shift system...that could cause some problems.

[victoryfactory]

Probably true unless you want to shift more than one lower gear at a time, then mech is faster(sweep), rather than push-push-push.

I think people need to actually try the E shifting before they make up their minds.
The act of pulling cable to shift is so cumbersome and prehistoric compared to
the act of hitting an electrical button.

I can understand if you prefer the mechanical or don't think you need E
shifting or can't afford it or don't like the looks but it is crisp and astonishingly fast.

Hey.. there are people who still love downtube shifting. I'd rather keep both hands
on the bars.

Happy New Year
VF