Duende owners

[sjbraun]

I just sold a bike today so my quest for a new frame just got more serious. I'm torn between a Peg, most likely a Duende, and some yet to be determined CF wonder bike, (my LBS is very keen on the Fondriest Domina plus.)
I like steel, (my remaining rides are lugged steel,) but have never ridden CF. I have to admit, I can be sucked into this weight weenie thing, just like most everyone else.
Mostly I'm looking for a stable bike that both climbs and descends well. I won't ever race and you'll never find me in a crit.

Most comments on the Duende indicate that this frame will meet my needs.

If you've had yours for a while, can you share your riding impressions?

Thanks

Steve- Tucson, where its Heat with a captitol H, dry or not

PS: Thanks to the Serotta folks for graciously supporting bicycle speech, whether its Serotta speech or not.

[amg]

Steve,

This is a no brainer - Pegoretti Duende all the way!!!!!!!!!!!

Just do a search on all the discussion about Pegoretti frames and I'm sure all of your questions will be answered. I'm waiting for an 8:30am frameset myself.

Saluti,

Antonio :beer:

[vaxn8r]

If money is no factor...how about an Ottrott? Honestly, it would fit the bill perfectly. I mean, you are on the S forum so what do you expect? Legend would be pretty good shoice too. S got good steel bikes too.

[Climb01742]

the duende is one of the few pegs i haven't ridden. but based on riding (and owning :rolleyes: ) quite a few others, it is a wonderful choice. dario's steel bikes have a wonderful zoooooom to them. your effort is instantly translated into forward motion. build quality is impeccable. and the're unique.

about carbon...it's not simply about being light...really good carbon frames (like a parlee) are light, yes, but they're also quick, comfortable, climb really well and also transfer effort into motion very well. a cervelo r2.5 is another great choice at a great price. look is supposed to have some nice new frames. pooh-poohing carbon is a minor sport on this forum. but my .02 is, done right, carbon gives a rider just about everything you could want in a frame...especially, i think, if you're on the smaller or lighter side (or like me, on the weaker side.) :beer:

[cs124]

pooh-poohing carbon is a minor sport on this forum.

...as opposed to the major sport, which is pooh-poohing aluminium ;)

[Big Dan]

Really guys..if I get dropped riding my CIII is not the frame's fault.....
Believe what you want to believe and buy what you want, work the engine..

:fight:

[Climb01742]

dan, i've never said that the engine isn't the most important factor in how well someone rides. but to say that what you ride is meaningless...or that different frames don't ride differently...that is simply (how to put this diplomatically?) ridiculous. i agree wholeheartedly that if i get dropped on a climb it is MY fault, not my frame's. but i would argue just as wholeheartedly that on that climb, i would enjoy it differently on different frames, and that i would climb it at different speeds on different frames. how much differently? it would depend on the frame. to say that what frame you ride doesn't matter is like saying what shoes a runner runs in are meaningless, or what skis a skier skis on are meaningless...is equipment the MOST meaningful element in performance? no way. but does it effect performance? you bet. and why does it bug folks on this forum if people discuss equipment? if your bike really doesn't matter, why not ride one from walmart? and as a point of information, i've been busting my *** working on the engine. working on the engine and caring about equipment aren't mutually exclusive things.

[Big Dan]

Climb I'm sorry but you really don't make sense on Saturday's. You basically compared a CIII to a bike from Walmart???.... :confused:

Excuse me, but there is more difference between a Walmart bike and a CIII, than a Duende and a CIII.....Have you been on the hunger strike program again??.. :confused: :confused:

Sometimes I really don't know what the hell you are taliking about, believe I want to respect your cycling knowledge but you make it really hard.... :crap:

I don't remember saying the frame doesn't matter....please let me know if you find that quote from me. law of diminishing returns......that's what I'm saying.... :D

[dbrk]

If money were no object I would _still_ buy a steel frame. I own what some consider the finest carbon bike in the world and certainly no less a carbon bike than any other: a Parlee Z1, designed by Hampsten just for me. It is a perfect fit, light as a feather, as good as it gets in this material. My Hampsten/Moots is so nearly identical in design that the differences don't obtain (even invoking the notion that the last 2% of difference makes all the difference after the first 98% is more or less taken care of...this being the Rule of 2% which I made up and invoke whenever I like...). Don't mistake me the Parlee is a GREAT bike and I could not bring myself to say anything bad about it 'cause I don't think there is anything "wrong" with it. It is simply that other bikes, like Hampsten/Moots Ti or my Pegoretti BLE or Marcelo, or certain other steel bikes of the threadless/modern ilk with carbon forks I would pick over the carbon frame. (I am lucky, nay, spoilled with options but it's more like an illness than a passion...) There is a material difference, as Climb correctly points out, and while carbon is light, responsive to input, and mutes the road in a good way, it does not respond like metal with a kind of conversation between rider input and frame response. I still maintain, even after the evolutions of the last few years that good steel is still superior to titanium though what's not to love about ti? Steel is a far better _value_ in simple cost terms and that gives it the edge too over both titanium and carbon. I would NOT buy an expensive carbon bike unless it were reallllly top shelf because runofthemill carbon is just a ride, nothing to love, nothing to move the heart. No sentimentality or nostalgia here, we're talking about modern threadless racer bikes with carbon forks (even if these are not my favorite kind of bikes! I would pick my Luigino over any of these already mentioned because not only does it have custom lugs, it has a steel fork with a twin plate crown, and a threaded steerer tube, and Dario will have poured his whole being into the mix, and honestly truly certainly that counts because it shows up in the ride...).

If cost were no object (and, well, it is!!), I'd get a Luigino because a one-off custom Pegoretti is a work of cycling genius taken to its truest form. It might be a few ounces heavier than the Duende but you'd not notice it riding, only curbside weight. But let's think modern and in dollar terms too: I think the Duende is a better deal than the CIII because, well, it is! Look at the prices when you add in the fork. Further, custom fitting simply does not trump excellent stock design (which is just as rare as a proper custom fit, imv[ery]u[npopluar]o) in about 95% of the cases I have seen. This is no swipe at the CIII which is a VERY nice bike but it is a few hundred more in cost. The Fondriest is nicely made and my aluminum one was nicely designed and finished (though here the material came shining through: harsh, good for racers hammering, nothing to do with me or my preferences). Still for cost/value/benefit/outcome, I'd rate the Fondriest not worth it in comparison to either the CIII or Duende. I may have a lot of bikes but I'm sort of a cheapskate, well, a fanatic willing to pay for what I love but also a cheapskate. (Say, a GGM in pink/black Jaco...like the one I have currently on order...)

Of course it is taste and preference when you get to this level but it comes down to what you want and can afford and are willing to pay (these not being the same thing). I might _want_ a certain bike, even be able to afford it, but in some crazy scheme of cost/benefit can't bring myself to pull the trigger. I feel this way about fancy two-seater cars too. Sometimes its just plain love, like the way folks love Serotta or Pegoretti or YouNameHim/It.
I choose love and then figure out how to live with the cost/benefit and sometimes love wins and sometimes cost/benefit. Buying a bike is a lot like knowing yourself: lots of trial and error, mistakes and occasional triumphs, ultimately it comes down to grace (or luck or karma, if you prefer), effort, and reflection.

dbrk
spending the quiet morning in LA before the long afternoon lecture but looking forward to tomorrow's ride with ThomByrnes, Mavic, and Bob of the Blastin' sort...

[Climb01742]

Believe what you want to believe and buy what you want, work the engine..


dan,

maybe i misunderstood what you meant by this. the original question was about what frame to buy. perhaps steel or carbon. i took your comment to mean, debating frames is somewhat of an academic exercise...what really matters is the engine.

that comment crops up fairly often on this forum. i find it a frustrating comment. and a bit wrongheaded.

if i misunderstood your meaning, i'm sorry.

and my comment about a bike from walmart...i think the fact that you own a CIII means you do think frames matter...that a very well crafted and thought out frame is important. i think that's why many people buy serottas (or pegs, or sachs, or spectrums, or parlees...). so i found a bit of a contradiction between choosing a fine frame like a CIII...but then you saying "Believe what you want to believe and buy what you want, work the engine..". you didn't buy a frame at walmart. you bought a fine serotta. i infer from that choice that you, too, believe that a good engine, by itself, isn't enough.

again, if i misunderstood, very sorry.

to the original poster, sorry for detouring your thread. listen to douglas. he always makes sense. well, 98% of the time. :D ;) :p :rolleyes:

[vaxn8r]

To continue the hijack....just a little longer. DBRK is not talking about exactly the same things Climb and Dan were referring to.

Frames do matter, especially when you're talking high performance. 3 competitive rides this week. First a 1-3 race. Calfee. Top 12. Next day same riders. Atlanta. Off the back on every sustained climb and struggling on the flats to maintain touch. Saturday. Same riders. Calfee. Back in front, hills in the first pack, fresh at 85 miles, 3rd in final sprint.

Frames do matter. Doesn't mean I don't love my steel bikes. Lot's of bikes on my wish list are steel. But if you're talking racing. In a word, no. There is a reason, besides sponsorship, virtually no one still races on steel.

[Big Dan]

Vax..I'm glad you got scientific proof that steel frames are not worth racing in...
3 rides, one of them bad...that's enough I guess.....



Steve, I'm sure the Elf is a great bike, the Marcelo is too. Also I hope you checked out other very capable steel frames available...

Serotta
IF
Seven
Waterford

etc.....good luck.... :D

[bcm119]

Uh oh Vax, now you've really done it. ;)

But I will disagree on one point: the flats. I don't think steel is any slower on the flats, because steel frames have very good pedaling efficiency. On climbs, sure, the weight penalty has to be a factor. But struggling on the flats could be due to anything- I can't imagine you were feeling very fresh the day after that 1-2-3 crit? And you have to consider wheels, tires, body position, etc.

Your Calfee is a super fast race bike. My guess is that a new steel bike w/DA 10 and Elans would be significantly lighter than your Atlanta.

[weisan]

If steel bikes are "slow"....would the Richard Sachs Cyclocross team use them and not only use them but compete in them at the pro level...thereby winning 9 national championships since 1997.

To put it more bluntly, the question being: why would anyone train so hard, having to make many sacrifices and then submit themselves to grave disadvantage to the competition?

Wouldn't that be counter-intuitive? Think about it for a sec....:p ;) :D :banana:

[vaxn8r]

Simple Weisan, 'cause they don't know any better. Or maybe that's their, er, sponsor. :)

Big Dan...that experiment has been repeated by me dozens and dozens of times. Not just with the Serotta but with the steel Merkx before that. Over several years. Every time, same results. Same wheels because I switch back and forth. Not science, just anecdote. But I know what I know.

If you've never tried a good CF frame you may be in for an eye opening.

Weisan, final thought. Maybe Ben and Eddy don't know what Richard knows about building a steel race bike. ;) I'll also freely admit I'm comparing 90's steel technology to 2000's CF technology. Should that make a big difference?

One more final thought. Why is it that quality steel frames are the least expensive to buy compared to quality CF or AL and yet you rarely see anyone race on steel? At any level.

OK it's late. enough fuel on the fire. Remember before you blast me. I like steel bikes. I still own 3 of them.

[Climb01742]

there is also the personal element. each rider has a different style of riding. different strengths/weaknesses. different likes/dislikes. different size, weight, power output.

each rider can only judge a frame or a material through their own experience and preferences. it sounds like vax and i have had similiar experiences with carbon and steel. it sounds like big dan has probably had different experiences. our "advice" is totally shaped by those different experiences. so which is "true"? both.

the tough thing for steve is...none of our "truths" may be true for him. he has his own style, strengths, preferences, favorite terrain, etc. i've been struggling with trying to write a ride report about my ottrott vs my parlee. i realize all my impressions are highly subjective, filtered as they are through my highly personalized preferences. what can any rider say that is "true" beyond their own highly personal "truth"? ah reality is so subjective.

[weisan]

Vax-pal, Climb-O...guess what? I have "similar" experience too when I am comparing the Legend to the lugged steel (built in 80s).

But....when I look at the "results" (ie. of the pro team)...I realize that it's not that "simple" (Note: I am not implying that any of us come to these conclusions simplistically). My point being, it begs the question: "Why and How?"

I don't think Ben or Merckx is any "less" than RS when it comes to designing race bikes. Or rather should I say, I don't think RS has a "magic hand" compared to them.

vax-pal, I don't think the issue is the "sponsor" or "they don't know there are better choices out there" either. Those "arguments" that were put forth before by others just don't do it for me. Or rather let me put it another way, I don't think those are "dominant" forces that can drive the final conclusion.

Yes...I will freely admit, up till now my own experience points to the fact that the Serotta Ti bike or the LOOK carbon 281, even though it's 1999-2000 technology are more apt to go fast than the lugged steel built of 1983 technology. But then again, we all know that's not an entirely fair comparison. Until the day when I get RS to design and build me a racing steel gig, I just don't know.

This topic has been talked about again and again here...and I will never get tired of talking about it with you Climb-O...b'cos I am "just as curious" and the arguments put forth from both sides indicate to me that there are no clear winners. To me, there are still too many "counter-intuitive" ideas floating around that means it is far from a case closed. Eg. the Jerk said he is
fast on the BLE (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=100899&postcount=54)...another counter-argument that requires further investigation and validation...to this day, I left "the door open" but a few things rise to the surface...

a) steel bikes have weight penalty (steel is heavier, duh!)

b) The performance of a bike goes beyond pure weight, the design is a big factor. How much? I don't know...

c) A well-designed bike (defined as built for its intended purposes) made of steel is race-worthy at the highest level, if one chooses to do so.

Climb-O, we can talk about this forever...and never get tired of it. It's a personal quest. :D

How's the climbing form comin'? :p

weisan

[Big Dan]

Simple Weisan, 'cause they don't know any better. Or maybe that's their, er, sponsor. :)

Big Dan...that experiment has been repeated by me dozens and dozens of times. Not just with the Serotta but with the steel Merkx before that. Over several years. Every time, same results. Same wheels because I switch back and forth. Not science, just anecdote. But I know what I know.

If you've never tried a good CF frame you may be in for an eye opening.

Weisan, final thought. Maybe Ben and Eddy don't know what Richard knows about building a steel race bike. ;) I'll also freely admit I'm comparing 90's steel technology to 2000's CF technology. Should that make a big difference?

One more final thought. Why is it that quality steel frames are the least expensive to buy compared to quality CF or AL and yet you rarely see anyone race on steel? At any level.

OK it's late. enough fuel on the fire. Remember before you blast me. I like steel bikes. I still own 3 of them.

No blasting, enjoy your rides. I wouldn't race a 10-15 year old steel bike, but wouldn't have a problem with a CIII, Pego or IF Crown Jewel.... :D


Now a quote for all of you to enjoy...Vax, Climb and others..

" The bike, at most, is 10 percent, and the rider is still 90 percent"
Eddy Merckx-Winning magazine , March 1993....

[Climb01742]

" The bike, at most, is 10 percent, and the rider is still 90 percent"
Eddy Merckx-Winning magazine , March 1993....

dan, i don't think anyone would disagree with this assessment. i bet almost everyone on this forum is working on both the 90% and the 10%. just because you care about the one, doesn't mean you don't care about the other. peace big man.

[Birddog]

But you can buy the 10%, that's why it is so popular.
Birddog

[vaxn8r]

Thanks Big Dan, Weisan. Good thoughts.

[dirtdigger88]

:D

Jason

[cpg]

weisan[/QUOTE]
a) steel bikes have weight penalty (steel is heavier, duh!)

b) The performance of a bike goes beyond pure weight, the design is a big factor. How much? I don't know...

c) A well-designed bike (defined as built for its intended purposes) made of steel is race-worthy at the highest level, if one chooses to do so.




Well said. Attaboy! You're my hero.

Curt

[weisan]

Curt-pal, you have flattered me. I told TomKellogg that 99.9% of the time I am talking $hit out of my mouth...YOU guys are the REAL deal....I am just a punk who likes to hang around with TRUE HEROs like you. :banana:

[Fixed]

To continue the hijack....just a little longer. DBRK is not talking about exactly the same things Climb and Dan were referring to.

Frames do matter, especially when you're talking high performance. 3 competitive rides this week. First a 1-3 race. Calfee. Top 12. Next day same riders. Atlanta. Off the back on every sustained climb and struggling on the flats to maintain touch. Saturday. Same riders. Calfee. Back in front, hills in the first pack, fresh at 85 miles, 3rd in final sprint.

Frames do matter. Doesn't mean I don't love my steel bikes. Lot's of bikes on my wish list are steel. But if you're talking racing. In a word, no. There is a reason, besides sponsorship, virtually no one still races on steel.
I don't know much about this but do you train on steel and race on carbon ?this may give you the feeling of lightness that might not be there if you trained on your carbon bike all the time.Am I wrong in thinking that many records are still held by riders on steel bikes.I like the history and tradition of steel frames as I know many of you share with me.Sometimes being first isn't as important as riding a work of art and old world craftsmanship . i.m.h.o.Cheers

[forzapantani]

Fondriest is a mass produced frame. (Been there, seen that)
If you need a 55 toptube and want an 05' Duende, with custom Ayers rock paint in dark green and grey, write me and I'll send photos.

I'm stepping up to a Big leg so the Duende will go...fast!
Thanks

[IXXI]

it's a good thing i'm divorced cause i think i love dario.

i broke in my new duende on a 45-miler with rolling hills and some climbs in SW washington yesterday, and the set-up is bellisima. absolutely perfect-- the fit and the ride i've been looking for (but have been unable to wholly quantify.) wheels of course make the biggest difference and between the frame and the dt 1.1's this is one smooth combo. the whole thing just looks 'right' too. (pics soon.)

from that ride alone i can tell that this will be my go-to bike for most of my riding. i've only ever ridden a fina, which i liked a lot--especially on downhills and at extreme speeds--probably the most confident, 'planted' bike i've ever owned. ah, but this duende... is _so_ right for where i am now (and will likely be for many many years.)

not that i won't be open to exploring the rides of *other* fine frames as well...! ;-)

cheers to everyone on the forum; happy mother's day to all the moms.

a

[davids]

it's a good thing i'm divorced cause i think i love dario.

i broke in my new duende on a 45-miler with rolling hills and some climbs in SW washington yesterday, and the set-up is bellisima. absolutely perfect-- the fit and the ride i've been looking for (but have been unable to wholly quantify.) wheels of course make the biggest difference and between the frame and the dt 1.1's this is one smooth combo. the whole thing just looks 'right' too. (pics soon.)

from that ride alone i can tell that this will be my go-to bike for most of my riding. i've only ever ridden a fina, which i liked a lot--especially on downhills and at extreme speeds--probably the most confident, 'planted' bike i've ever owned. ah, but this duende... is _so_ right for where i am now (and will likely be for many many years.)

not that i won't be open to exploring the rides of *other* fine frames as well...! ;-)

cheers to everyone on the forum; happy mother's day to all the moms.

a
Congrats! Don't keep us hanging on the pics!

[Climb01742]

it's a good thing i'm divorced cause i think i love dario.

i broke in my new duende on a 45-miler with rolling hills and some climbs in SW washington yesterday, and the set-up is bellisima. absolutely perfect-- the fit and the ride i've been looking for (but have been unable to wholly quantify.) wheels of course make the biggest difference and between the frame and the dt 1.1's this is one smooth combo. the whole thing just looks 'right' too. (pics soon.)

from that ride alone i can tell that this will be my go-to bike for most of my riding. i've only ever ridden a fina, which i liked a lot--especially on downhills and at extreme speeds--probably the most confident, 'planted' bike i've ever owned. ah, but this duende... is _so_ right for where i am now (and will likely be for many many years.)

not that i won't be open to exploring the rides of *other* fine frames as well...! ;-)

cheers to everyone on the forum; happy mother's day to all the moms.

a

ride-wise, how does the duende differ from the fina? i've owned a fina but not a duende. i've always been curious if a duende is a more mellow flavor of pegoretti performance? thanks in advance, and congrats on finding a ride you dig so much. what a feeling. :beer:

[IXXI]

mellow is a great way to describe the very subtle difference, atmo, between the fina and the duende and likely all peg frames. it is still a very serious frame, all business, totally performance oriented, but maybe with a 'longer view' of the ride, ie. it might not be the off-the-line rocket that the emma or fina or marcelo is, but you might reach the end of the ride at the same time, if that makes sense.

the duende just has this sense of 'flow' about it-- not that the fina didn't, because it did, but just not quite as 'calmed'...mellow...as the duende. i bet we could split hairs even further comparing the marcelo and the duende.

i can see why it might be classified as being good for long rides; i suspect it will. but even on relatively shorter rides-- fast rides--that flow felt realllllly _on_ and perfectly appropriate.

yeah. i'm a little happy about it.

[Fixed]

bro the cat said he's not racing maybe peace of mind weighs something too
sachs or kirk .or the maybe a peg but i don't like carbon forks unless you are racing . cheers

[stevep]

" The bike, at most, is 10 percent, and the rider is still 90 percent"
Eddy Merckx-Winning magazine , March 1993....


ah, whats he know...he had a really nice bike... with 6 speeds even.

[Climb01742]

" The bike, at most, is 10 percent, and the rider is still 90 percent"
Eddy Merckx-Winning magazine , March 1993....

steve,
and of course you use that quote while trying to convince someone of the virtues of a VXRS? :beer: ;) :D

[stevep]

exactly.
buy it because you like it...not because it will make you go faster or because its lighter and stiffer.

[Louis]

steve,
and of course you use that quote while trying to convince someone of the virtues of a VXRS? :beer: ;) :D

I thought that all of us here, through many hours of training and honing both our technique and bodies to a super-fine edge, have achieved 99.99999% of our potential? So, if anything is keeping us back, it has to be the bike, not us.