Open letter to Armstrong (The Atlantic)

[djg21]

Re: June 1 demand for public apology from CBS News

Dear shameless, high-priced flacks esteemed legal representatives of Lance Armstrong,

On behalf of the segment of the population that is currently awake, paying attention, and not in a medically comatose and/or trauma-induced vegetative state, I ask that you explain to the general public that your demand that 60 Minutes apologize on air to Lance Armstrong was a cynical, empty public relations gesture that even an unusually perceptive chimpanzee could see right through.

. . . .

Your aggrieved letter to CBS News centers around a single allegation made during the May 22 broadcast of 60 Minutes: that Armstrong tested positive for the banned performance-enhancing blood-booster EPO during the 2001 Tour of Switzerland and possibly had the result covered up. You state that this allegation is reckless. You call it demonstrably false. You repeatedly throw out the word "defamatory." You dub correspondent Scott Pelley's words "untethered to reality." You spend four droning, repetitive pages - seriously, your whole argument could have been squeezed into three paragraphs - complaining about the unjust, inexcusable, shoddy, and vicious failed drug test allegation, as if every other damning allegation made during the program never existed.

Talk about untethered to reality.

In your letter, you claim that the drug test allegation was both a "centerpiece" and "the heart" of the 60 Minutes report. This is demonstrably false. The heart of the broadcast was former Armstrong teammate Tyler Hamilton claiming in an on-camera interview that he: (a) saw Armstrong take performance-enhancing drugs including EPO and testosterone; (b) saw Armstrong receive a banned blood transfusion; (c) had knowledge of Armstrong encouraging and promoting doping by the U.S Postal team; (d) had knowledge of banned Italian trainer Michele Ferrari giving Armstrong a doping schedule; (e) gave testimony regarding the preceding to a federal grand jury investigating Armstrong.
Read more at The Atlantic (http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2011/06/an-open-letter-to-lance-armstrongs-lawyers/239851/).

[jpw]

He's going down.

[BumbleBeeDave]

This guy is absolutely right. He describes the situation right now better than anything else I have seen.

These tactics suggest very strongly to me that Armstrong's legal/PR team really is running out of options to protect someone who really has done something wrong. They know they can't dispute the real core issues, so they try to sidetrack the argument onto peripheral matters to try and distract the public. Classic PR moves by the desperate.

But Lance has lots of money and as long as he tells them to keep fighting and he will keep paying them, then they will keep doing the best they can despite it being a lost cause that their efforts make look more and more ridiculous.

Classic situation of a public figure with tons of cash who simply won't admit the cause is lost.

BBD

[Lifelover]

This guy is absolutely right. He describes the situation right now better than anything else I have seen.

These tactics suggest very strongly to me that Armstrong's legal/PR team really is running out of options to protect someone who really has done something wrong. They know they can't dispute the real core issues, so they try to sidetrack the argument onto peripheral matters to try and distract the public. Classic PR moves by the desperate.

But Lance has lots of money and as long as he tells them to keep fighting and he will keep paying them, then they will keep doing the best they can despite it being a lost cause that their efforts make look more and more ridiculous.

Classic situation of a public figure with tons of cash who simply won't admit the cause is lost.

BBD

All I know is that time is running out for you!

Serotta Swag Bet! (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=819284&postcount=31)

There is almost no chance a conviction can be had by July so you better hope he has a change of heart and decides to admit his sins!

[wooly]

I agree Dave - well written response. I especially like the Star Wars reference.

[djg21]

I agree Dave - well written response. I especially like the Star Wars reference.

Armstrong "doth protest too much, methinks."

If I were counseling him, I'd suggest that he not respond so vigourously, and state only that he welcomes a complete and thorough investigation, through which all questions about his alleged PED use (and his alleged facilitation of drug use by others and his alleged participation in a conspiracy to traffic in illegal PEDs and his alleged extortion of UCI officials) can be fully and finally addressed, and he can be conclusively vindicated.

Then again, Mr. Armstrong would be unable to make such a statement if there is a substantial probability that the allegations will prove true. Thus the obfuscation? Who knows what he or his PR people are thinking?

[Ray]

The guy in the Atlantic sounds about right to me. I guess part of what bugs me so much about Armstrong isn't the denials - everyone denies it for a while - its the way he has his PR team working us like we're a bunch of idiots. It pisses me off when politicians (both sides the aisle thanks very much) do it and it pisses me off when any high profile people do it. It seems like when most Euro pros get busted, there's an element of "wink wink nudge nudge know what I mean know what I mean" to it that's just part of playing the game. Maybe its because we're such a puritanical society here in the States that our hero's really have to overplay the 'I can't be guilty, I'm an all-American boy (or girl) and I might just be a virgin too!' kind of thing. I think that may have been part of what fueled Tyler's ridiculous twins explanation and Floyd's Jack Daniels defense. Any self-respecting European would be ashamed of such nonsense, but we seem to require it of our fallen heros. I guess it must work to some extent, so they keep doing it, like political attack ads. But for those who are paying attention, its just an awful lot of time and money and energy spent on a lot of useless noise. And when someone does it, it pisses me off. And when they finally come clean, I'm generally ready to forgive 'em (not for the doping which is a given and which I've stopped caring about, but for the lying thieving PR part of it), but the deeper they dig the hole and the longer they keep digging, the harder it is to let 'em out. Lance is digging a REALLY deep friggin' hole. I don't see how this ends well...

-Ray

[OTB]

Strange irony. Last night in the middle of night, we heard a crash in our guest bedroom. We went to investigate and this is what we saw (see photos). It had been hanging for years in the same spot.

[jpw]

Seven fat years, seven lean years.

[William]

How long until the Tiger style news conference apology....and the Nike ad follow-up? :rolleyes:




W.

[BumbleBeeDave]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Lie

"His primary rules were: never allow the public to cool off; never admit a fault or wrong; never concede that there may be some good in your enemy; never leave room for alternatives; never accept blame; concentrate on one enemy at a time and blame him for everything that goes wrong; people will believe a big lie sooner than a little one; and if you repeat it frequently enough people will sooner or later believe it."

BBD

[rcnute]

How are the Taiwanese going to animate this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1xaLaLHHms

QUOTE=William]How long until the Tiger style news conference apology....and the Nike ad follow-up? :rolleyes:




W.[/QUOTE]

[cmg]

How are the Taiwanese going to animate this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1xaLaLHHms

QUOTE=William]How long until the Tiger style news conference apology....and the Nike ad follow-up? :rolleyes:




W.[/QUOTE]


never.......get over it. it's not going to happen, ever. you need real physical evidence from a credible source. not someone trying to sell a book, or recapture a fading glory. when the former president of the UCI says it didn't happen under his watch that has more crediblity than a former teamate that has lied one to many times. and about Hincapie's talking to the investegators. what happen there? probably alot of i'm not sure, i can't remember, didn't see him directly do it, nothing to hang an inditement on. Armstrong doped, he's never going to admit it, they are never going to prove it. it's over, along with the few million tax dollars that fueled the salaries.

[dancinkozmo]

.... when the former president of the UCI says it didn't happen under his watch that has more crediblity .....[/QUOTE]

HA !!!!!!!!

[William]

.... when the former president of the UCI says it didn't happen under his watch that has more crediblity .....



Also known as...CYA!!! :butt: ;)





William :)

[goonster]

when the former president of the UCI says it didn't happen under his watch that has more crediblity than a former teamate
Do you really believe this, or are you being "ironical?"

If I were Hein Verbruggen, I would keep my big trap shut in public about what happened under my watch. He was president of the UCI from 1991 to 2005. The list of professionals who were either sanctioned for doping, or have admitted to PED use, during that period would exhaust the bandwidth limit of this forum.

[CunegoFan]

never.......get over it. it's not going to happen, ever. you need real physical evidence from a credible source. not someone trying to sell a book, or recapture a fading glory. when the former president of the UCI says it didn't happen under his watch that has more crediblity than a former teamate that has lied one to many times. and about Hincapie's talking to the investegators. what happen there? probably alot of i'm not sure, i can't remember, didn't see him directly do it, nothing to hang an inditement on. Armstrong doped, he's never going to admit it, they are never going to prove it. it's over, along with the few million tax dollars that fueled the salaries.

You know that Armstrong's prospects are dim when his supporters began claiming that he will never be convicted of crimes rather than he never doped. The prisons are full of people put there by the testimony of their partners in crime. John Gotti died in a super max prison based largely on the word of a man who murdered a couple of dozen people.

During trial the issue of Armstrong's doping will not be a point of debate. It will be a given. The prosecutors will file a broad indictment against multiple persons involved with Tailwind and Capital Sports. They will likely include Wiesal, Gorski, Ochowicz, Armstrong, Bruyneel, Stapleton, etc. Charges will be drug distribution, wire fraud, money laundering, tax evasion, conspiracy, fraud, insurance fraud, and perjury. The evidence of a team doping program will be so overwhelming that none of the defendents, with the possible of exception of Armstrong, will expend any effort denying it. Instead they will rely on a plausible deniability defense. They will claim that they knew nothing about what Armstrong and the other members of the team were doing. Maybe it will work, but Armstrong's goose will be cooked no matter what the outcome of the trial is. Bonds escaped a perjury conviction, but the public still knows that he is a lying doper with disturbingly violent tendencies. Bonds' reputation is right down there with Pete Rose's, and soon to be joined by Lenny Dykstra's. The truth is known about them regardless of any conviction.

The Atlantic article points out how inept Armstrong's public relations campaign has become. He is one step away from becoming a national joke like O.J. and his search for the real killers.

The latest misfire was faux outrage expressed by Armstrong's lawyers about 60 Minutes treatment of George Hincapie. At least George read this race right. He has been smart enough to use a low key deflection of any questions without an outright denial. He has been using this approach since Floyd spilled the beans last year, and maybe earlier than that.

[BumbleBeeDave]

The real news here is not the doping. Actually taking the peds is not the crime. The crime is all the associated activities that made taking them possible. These are prescription drugs and distributing Rx drugs to those that doe't have Rx's is bad stuff. I agree that Lance is well on his way to becoming the Barry Bonds of pro cycling and no amount of money he spends on PR and legal flacks is going to slow down that snowball as it rolls downhill straight to reputation Hell.

BBD

You know that Armstrong's prospects are dim when his supporters began claiming that he will never be convicted of crimes rather than he never doped. The prisons are full of people put there by the testimony of their partners in crime. John Gotti died in a super max prison based largely on the word of a man who murdered a couple of dozen people.

During trial the issue of Armstrong's doping will not be a point of debate. It will be a given. The prosecutors will file a broad indictment against multiple persons involved with Tailwind and Capital Sports. They will likely include Wiesal, Gorski, Ochowicz, Armstrong, Bruyneel, Stapleton, etc. Charges will be drug distribution, wire fraud, money laundering, tax evasion, conspiracy, fraud, insurance fraud, and perjury. The evidence of a team doping program will be so overwhelming that none of the defendents, with the possible of exception of Armstrong, will expend any effort denying it. Instead they will rely on a plausible deniability defense. They will claim that they knew nothing about what Armstrong and the other members of the team were doing. Maybe it will work, but Armstrong's goose will be cooked no matter what the outcome of the trial is. Bonds escaped a perjury conviction, but the public still knows that he is a lying doper with disturbingly violent tendencies. Bonds' reputation is right down there with Pete Rose's, and soon to be joined by Lenny Dykstra's. The truth is known about them regardless of any conviction.

The Atlantic article points out how inept Armstrong's public relations campaign has become. He is one step away from becoming a national joke like O.J. and his search for the real killers.

The latest misfire was faux outrage expressed by Armstrong's lawyers about 60 Minutes treatment of George Hincapie. At least George read this race right. He has been smart enough to use a low key deflection of any questions without an outright denial. He has been using this approach since Floyd spilled the beans last year, and maybe earlier than that.

[mosca]

Nice summary, CunegoFan.

Here's another open letter to Lance, this one with less sarcasm:

http://www.texasmonthly.com/2010-11-01/michaelhall.php

The big problem for Lance now is, if he admits to the doping, he makes it that much easier to pursue the more serious charges against him. Too late for apologies...

[Kines]

Nice summary, CunegoFan.

Here's another open letter to Lance, this one with less sarcasm:

http://www.texasmonthly.com/2010-11-01/michaelhall.php

The big problem for Lance now is, if he admits to the doping, he makes it that much easier to pursue the more serious charges against him. Too late for apologies...


Best thing I've read to date on the whole issue, by far. And even with a subscription to TM (gift from Texan in-laws), I never saw this. Too busy riding, I guess.

KN

[Germany_chris]

Finally a decent well though out letter to a master of the sport..like him or not

[jbrainin]

Lance is pretty well screwed as he can't admit doping without opening himself to perjury charges for his testimony in the SCA Promotions lawsuit.

[Climb01742]

good piece, that texas monthly one. good advice as well.

[ultraman6970]

This will happen...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/08/0330chewbacca.jpg

[wooly]

The Atlantic article points out how inept Armstrong's public relations campaign has become. He is one step away from becoming a national joke like O.J. and his search for the real killers.

Let's not go crazy here and compare Armstrong to OJ.

[BumbleBeeDave]

http://www.jsonline.com/business/123197863.html

Trek Bicycle CEO John Burke says Lance Armstrong “will be part of the company into the future.” In an interview published in the business section of the paper’s website, Burke spoke about Trek’s culture of constant improvement and the changes in the bike market in recent years, noting the influx of ex-runners, ex-golfers and women. “I don’t know who sent the memo out. All of a sudden women are flocking to cycling,” he said. As for Armstrong, he said the retired racer’s effect on people, especially cancer survivors, remains remarkable. “You really have to understand him, and to see the power of him, you need to be around him. There’s something weird that happens when you are around him.”

Yeah, I'll say . . .

BBD

[fjaws]

.....Of course he will! One of the smarter things he's done is taken market share in the companies that supported him in lieu of cash payment. For better or worse he'll maintain his shares. ;)

[CunegoFan]

Let's not go crazy here and compare Armstrong to OJ.

It is not comparing him to O.J. It is comparing Armstrong's lies to O.J.'s risible search for the real killers, which became a national butt of jokes. Comedy shows would display a pic of O.J. golfing then make a crack about O.J. being hard at work searching for the real killers. The public will only tolerate a certain amount of insult to its collective intelligence. At some point the liar becomes a subject of derision. Pete Rose is a good example.

[echelon_john]

It's called getting subpoenaed...

http://www.jsonline.com/business/123197863.html

There’s something weird that happens when you are around him.”[/I]

Yeah, I'll say . . .

BBD

[rcnute]

This will happen...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/08/0330chewbacca.jpg

There's no defense like the Chewbacca defense. "Ladies and gentlemen of the supposed jury..."

[Elefantino]

I should probably be as conflicted on this as anyone.

I'm vehemently against doping because I've seen its tragedy first-hand. I had a friend with whom I went to high school and college. He was a walk-on on the football team, which at that time was loaded with steroid users. Serious users, a couple of whom went on to be top pros, one of whom one several super bowls and another one of whom banged a cheerleader in my apartment while we were all partying in the other room. But I digress. My friend had the drive to make the practice squad despite the fact that he was slow and undersized, sort of a 6-foot rudy. But, ultimately, he didn't have the heart for it. He dropped dead at 29. Heart attack. "Natural causes," they said. Natural causes my ass. Steroid use killed him.

Now, on to Lance. I have been fortunate enough to have him in my life. In 1999, my mom, then 79, got Stage 3 ovarian and had surgery before the start of the Tour. Each day we and everyone else on the oncology ward followed the updates (then all to brief) on ESPN. She was released from the hospital on the Saturday before Paris; we watched the final stage on CBS, tears streaming down our faces.

Two years later, when my dad was diagnosed with terminal throat cancer, I got this wild idea to raise money for the RFTR in their honor. I hit up everyone I knew, inside work (then OK by the rules) and out, including at every local ride. I raised 10 grand. And I told the LAF folks about my mom's story; they flew her out to Austin, too. She got to speak with LA on a panel one afternoon. He brought tears to her eyes; she brought tears to his. Then while I was fortunate enough to go on the Saturday ride with LA and a bunch of celebs, my mom hung out in the hotel lobby. When we all got back, she was sitting with a couple. These are my new friends Davis and Connie, she said. They are into cycling, too. I about fell over.

When my dad died, we had folks send donations to LAF in lieu of flowers. We got a lot of folks to do it.

In 2003, I got to go to the Tour. Saw LA, thanked him and said hi for my mom. He was great, although brief.

Now, this. I talked with my mom last week and she said she was sad, because it sounded to her like he was cooked. Another Barry Bonds, she said. But, she said, I guess you can't really trust anyone anymore. And in the same breath, she said she still is glad to wear her Livestrong bracelet, because of what it means.

I wear mine, too. For ditto.

At the same time, I have no doubt that Lance doped, and I feel duped. Maybe I wanted the story to be true and didn't want to believe my lying eyes. I have come to the conclusion that he is no better than any other athlete when it comes to cheating. He is just another athlete who knew he couldn't do on his own what he could do with help, and chose the help. His story is not as ultimately tragic as so many others have been, including my friend's. But it is tragic nonetheless, in the true sense of the word. A man undone by his own flaw.

What he's done for cancer I'll never forget. What he did as a doper I'll never forgive. Call it a rush to judgment, or hypocritical, or naive, or any combination of the three.

It is what it is.

[indyrider]

You're right, it is what it is. Thanks for sharing.

[cmg]

O.J. was never convicted of murder. Of course the former president of the UCI had to deny drug use. He has to, sure it's pure cya. the UCI doesn't have the resourses or will power to use them to chase doping strategies. never will. Hein Verbruggen setup tours just to defeat Armstrong, didn't happen. increased the number of test taking, didn't catch him. which tour had a higher number of sprint finishes, which one had a high number of mountain finishes? US prosecutetor can only file a indictment of American citizens, bruyneel is not and he's a key witness. the real problem is for the procecutor, he's got to indict someone, probably george hindicapie, tyler or maybe kevin livingston, someone small fish but this is what 3 years in the making, no end in sight. someone will suffer but it won't be armstrong. wasn't Armstrong a kind of a genetic freak, low standing heart rate, high VO2, produces low amounts of lactate, cancer reduced his weight, lowered his body fat and raised his ability to suffer 3x. He was already sleeping in an oxygen tent from his pre-cancer days how much chemical tweakying would he need to make him super human? bet it's a smaller amount than can be detected.

[fuzzalow]

^ Believe what you want to believe.

[rounder]

[QUOTE=Elefantino]I should probably be as conflicted on this as anyone.

Good post. My father died from cancer and am as interested as anyone in curing it. Love what Lance has done to date in overcoming it for himself and putting it at the forefront as an issue for all. Still, I want my idols to be folks you can stand up for and respect. As great as Lance has been, it does not mean as much to me if there are huge question marks hanging over the process. I have more respect for what my father did in his own lifetime.

[rustychisel]

I should probably be as conflicted on this as anyone....

.... It is what it is.


Thanks. I think your instincts and reactions are good, and I'm somewhat taken aback by the naked gloating of the 'he's going down' brigade, which is, to be frank, unseemly. It also might be putting the cart too far in front of the horse.

[JMerring]

also, he is the most tested athlete ever and never failed a drug test. he must be clean and the truth will set us free, right?

O.J. was never convicted of murder. Of course the former president of the UCI had to deny drug use. He has to, sure it's pure cya. the UCI doesn't have the resourses or will power to use them to chase doping strategies. never will. Hein Verbruggen setup tours just to defeat Armstrong, didn't happen. increased the number of test taking, didn't catch him. which tour had a higher number of sprint finishes, which one had a high number of mountain finishes? US prosecutetor can only file a indictment of American citizens, bruyneel is not and he's a key witness. the real problem is for the procecutor, he's got to indict someone, probably george hindicapie, tyler or maybe kevin livingston, someone small fish but this is what 3 years in the making, no end in sight. someone will suffer but it won't be armstrong. wasn't Armstrong a kind of a genetic freak, low standing heart rate, high VO2, produces low amounts of lactate, cancer reduced his weight, lowered his body fat and raised his ability to suffer 3x. He was already sleeping in an oxygen tent from his pre-cancer days how much chemical tweakying would he need to make him super human? bet it's a smaller amount than can be detected.

[ultraman6970]

"Ladies and gentlemen of the supposed jury.."

also, he is the most tested athlete ever and never failed a drug test. he must be clean and the truth will set us free, right?

[FlashUNC]

Hein Verbruggen setup tours just to defeat Armstrong, didn't happen. increased the number of test taking, didn't catch him. which tour had a higher number of sprint finishes, which one had a high number of mountain finishes?

Hate to burst your bubble, but the UCI doesn't lay out the Tour route.

[oldguy00]

I still don't get it.....In my mind, just a massive waste of tax payers money for this stupid investigation.
Armstrong is no more guilty than any other pro cyclist, and it doesn't change the fact that he is responsible for a lot of good, including the Livestrong stuff, and also simply making cycling that much more popular, getting more people involved in it, over the past 10+ years due to the media/coverage he generated.

I can't help but think that if over the past 10 years you thought he hadn't doped, that you either have no clue about this sport, or you are ignorant. Again, he is no more guilty than any other cyclist, and I believe even Tyler Hamilton was trying to imply that in his interview.

He did not tie anyone down on the team bus and jab a needle into their arm, everyone had to make their own choices. They could have walked away.

Hey, I wonder what would happen if WADA walked into the locker rooms on Superbowl Sunday and said 'pee and blood from everyone, please'. Gee, I wonder what they'd find. Why isn't Novitzky investigating that? Why is he targeting one person?
Everyone knew there was rampant doping in cycling.....just as there is in almost every professional sport. Would USPS be happier if their money was spent on jelly doughnuts?

Hmmm....'I'm Mr Investigator....Hey, USPS sponsored a cycling team for which they received a great return on the advertising..........I wonder if it is worth trying to figure out if any USPS sponsorship money was used inappropriately 10 years ago in a sport that everyone knew PED's were used......and in the process of figuring that out, I'm gonna spend millions in tax payer money, and absolutely trash the reputation of the biggest sports figure in the last decade and his cancer foundation'...

Uggh...what a ????ing waste.

[cmg]

also, he is the most tested athlete ever and never failed a drug test. he must be clean and the truth will set us free, right?


No, what it means is that he has met all the legal requirements to play the game. how can he be found quilty if there is only allegations, no proof? He has been through this before and survived and will survive this. the prosecutor is chasing ghosts.

Now on Hindcapie talking to prosecutors, if he admitted to doping wouldn't the prosecutor be required to turn over information to the UCI govering body so that Hindcapie could recieve his automatic 2 year suspension? similar to what happend to Millar. hasn't happened.

[bobswire]

You know that Armstrong's prospects are dim when his supporters began claiming that he will never be convicted of crimes rather than he never doped. The prisons are full of people put there by the testimony of their partners in crime. John Gotti died in a super max prison based largely on the word of a man who murdered a couple of dozen people.

During trial the issue of Armstrong's doping will not be a point of debate. It will be a given. The prosecutors will file a broad indictment against multiple persons involved with Tailwind and Capital Sports. They will likely include Wiesal, Gorski, Ochowicz, Armstrong, Bruyneel, Stapleton, etc. Charges will be drug distribution, wire fraud, money laundering, tax evasion, conspiracy, fraud, insurance fraud, and perjury. The evidence of a team doping program will be so overwhelming that none of the defendents, with the possible of exception of Armstrong, will expend any effort denying it. Instead they will rely on a plausible deniability defense. They will claim that they knew nothing about what Armstrong and the other members of the team were doing. Maybe it will work, but Armstrong's goose will be cooked no matter what the outcome of the trial is. Bonds escaped a perjury conviction, but the public still knows that he is a lying doper with disturbingly violent tendencies. Bonds' reputation is right down there with Pete Rose's, and soon to be joined by Lenny Dykstra's. The truth is known about them regardless of any conviction.

The Atlantic article points out how inept Armstrong's public relations campaign has become. He is one step away from becoming a national joke like O.J. and his search for the real killers.

The latest misfire was faux outrage expressed by Armstrong's lawyers about 60 Minutes treatment of George Hincapie. At least George read this race right. He has been smart enough to use a low key deflection of any questions without an outright denial. He has been using this approach since Floyd spilled the beans last year, and maybe earlier than that.

This is EXACTLY why this whole witch hunt is a JOKE, " The prosecutors will file a broad indictment against multiple persons involved with Tailwind and Capital Sports. They will likely include Wiesal, Gorski, Ochowicz, Armstrong, Bruyneel, Stapleton, etc. Charges will be drug distribution, wire fraud, money laundering, tax evasion, conspiracy, fraud, insurance fraud, and perjury. "

If this should ever make it to trial it will be a Big Fail and show why Grand Juries are a waste when used to by Federal Prosecutors to enhance their Egos and resume.

Go after LA if you will for doping but to use the power of Grand Jury with Trumped up charges hoping to snag a celebrity is a misuse and miscarriage of justice. How anyone can gloat over this just because you dislike LA is beyond me.

[BillG]

No, what it means is that he has met all the legal requirements to play the game. how can he be found quilty if there is only allegations, no proof? He has been through this before and survived and will survive this. the prosecutor is chasing ghosts.

Now on Hindcapie talking to prosecutors, if he admitted to doping wouldn't the prosecutor be required to turn over information to the UCI govering body so that Hindcapie could recieve his automatic 2 year suspension? similar to what happend to Millar. hasn't happened.

Millar was caught doping. Literally. Works in hand. Very different case.

Just curious, but why do you insist on spelling Hincapie "Hindcapie"? Is that meant to be an insult? I don't quite get it.

[Ti Designs]

Well, at least it's not about the bike...

[christian]

also, he is the most tested athlete everNo, he's not. I really wish that meme would die.

[torquer]

Now on Hincapie talking to prosecutors, if he admitted to doping wouldn't the prosecutor be required to turn over information to the UCI govering body so that Hincapie could recieve his automatic 2 year suspension?
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't grand jury proceedings supposed to be confidential until the jury has concluded it's work?
And there is no obligation to turn over anything once the final report is issued. The UCI (or US anti-doping authority) could get hold of the testimony at that point, but nothing automatic.
Another small point of correction (probably obvious): someone claimed only US citizens can be indicted; anyone participating in illegal activities can be charged; just ask Mr. Strauss-Kahn about that one.

[JMerring]

No, he's not. I really wish that meme would die.

i know - i was just parroting the same old crapola really in total disbelief of what cmg said.

[firerescuefin]

CMG...you know that actual puppets do not live on Sesame Street...right? There's no Big Bird and Oscar's not really living in a garbage can.

These guys are all well trained genetic freaks. You want to believe that Lance is somehow above and beyond this....so far above in fact that he beats other genetic freaks that are dosed to the gills, please continue to do so, but don't post that BS on here. There are probably quite a few people on these boards whose knowledge of sports physiology extends beyone the "Science of Lance Armstrong" special you watched on OLN 5 years ago. Just because Santa "receives" millions of letters every year, doesn't mean he exists.

[JMerring]

CMG...you know that actual puppets do not live on Sesame Street...right? There's no Big Bird and Oscar's not really living in a garbage can.

These guys are all well trained genetic freaks. You want to believe that Lance is somehow above and beyond this....so far above in fact that he beats other genetic freaks that are dosed to the gills, please continue to do so, but don't post that BS on here. There are probably quite a few people on these boards whose knowledge of sports physiology extends beyone the "Science of Lance Armstrong" special you watched on OLN 5 years ago. Just because Santa "receives" millions of letters every year, doesn't mean he exists.

you just ruined my day!!!! at least the tooth fairy is still real.

[cmg]

you just ruined my day!!!! at least the tooth fairy is still real.


he's not going to get caught.

[oldguy00]

No, he's not. I really wish that meme would die.

Purely out of interest, who is?

[flydhest]

Well, at least it's not about the bike...
Post of the day.

[JMerring]

he's not going to get caught.

I thought the tooth fairy was female, and never suspected drug use. Oh well.

As for lance, I could not care less whether he gets caught or not. Whether he does or doesn't, it will make zero difference in my life, and frankly I don't think it will have any meaningful impact on the global fight against cancer.

Whereas previously I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, and then thought he probably doped, I know now that he has been exposed as the cheat and fraud that he is.

My opinion is that the investigation is about much much more than simply cheating at bike racing, and that lance is and will be in a heap of trouble. Time will tell.

[christian]

Purely out of interest, who is?I don't know - some track and field athlete or swimmer with a long career. You can look up USADA testing histories for US athletes here: http://www.usada.org/athlete-test-history

But as an example, between 2001 and 2011:

Michael Phelps Swimming 106 tests
Lance Armstrong Cycling 34 tests

To be fair, some of this is not Lance's fault - the UCI didn't sign on to WADA out-of-competition testing protocols until 2005, so it's reasonable he wouldn't have as many tests prior to 2005 as many athletes in other sports.

But in any case "most tested athlete" is a total canard. Most tested cyclist, maybe, as that's likely to be whoever has most stage or single-day race podiums from 1993 to 2010. That could in all likelihood be Lance Armstrong, but I don't have a database of palmares to really validate that.

[christian]

Ok - I just looked. Phelps is actually a big outlier - has twice the number of tests of most people, but clearly swimmers are the most heavily tested. Aaron Peirsol, Amanda Beard, Kate Ziegler, Dana Vollmer all have 40 or 50+ tests.

[torquer]

Marion Jones keeps coming up in these discussions of who is the most tested.
Aquatics does top the list of sports in the numbers of tests performed, but no sense of how many individuals in the different sports are subject to testing.

[William]

Marion Jones keeps coming up in these discussions of who is the most tested.


I don't know if she was the most tested, but she never tested positive. Then later admitted to being a doper.




William

[CunegoFan]

I still don't get it.....In my mind, just a massive waste of tax payers money for this stupid investigation.
Armstrong is no more guilty than any other pro cyclist, and it doesn't change the fact that he is responsible for a lot of good, including the Livestrong stuff, and also simply making cycling that much more popular, getting more people involved in it, over the past 10+ years due to the media/coverage he generated.

Madoff gave heavily to charity. DSK by all accounts was brilliant at running the IMF. How much good do you have to do, how rich do you have to be, how much power do you have to have to excuse fraud? How about rape? What about murder? Should only the little people be brought to justice while the wealthy get a free pass?

Prosecuting people costs money. As much as Armstrong and his apologists want to blame the government for spending it, the person responsible for the expenditure is Armstrong himself. To end the costs all he has to do is stop lying. This case is a little different because fraud against the government can be recouped for treble the damages. That is north of $90 million. Unlike many large judgements against fraudsters, Armstrong and his cronies have the means to pay such a judgement. The investigation could turn a profit.

Purely out of interest, who is?

Looking at the USADA records, Armstrong is not even the most tested U.S. cyclist with the last name of Armstrong. Kristin Armstrong is. Armstrong never raced enough to be the most tested cyclist. Sprinters like Zabel, Petacchi, Cipollini raced all year, sometimes all three GTs in a season and twenty or more wins in a year. A rider like that is undoubtedly the most tested cyclist. This is just another Armstrong lie. He is using the big lie technique, where people will be suckered if he repeats it often enough.

[Fixed]

I still don't get it.....In my mind, just a massive waste of tax payers money for this stupid investigation.
Armstrong is no more guilty than any other pro cyclist, and it doesn't change the fact that he is responsible for a lot of good, including the Livestrong stuff, and also simply making cycling that much more popular, getting more people involved in it, over the past 10+ years due to the media/coverage he generated.

I can't help but think that if over the past 10 years you thought he hadn't doped, that you either have no clue about this sport, or you are ignorant. Again, he is no more guilty than any other cyclist, and I believe even Tyler Hamilton was trying to imply that in his interview.

He did not tie anyone down on the team bus and jab a needle into their arm, everyone had to make their own choices. They could have walked away.

Hey, I wonder what would happen if WADA walked into the locker rooms on Superbowl Sunday and said 'pee and blood from everyone, please'. Gee, I wonder what they'd find. Why isn't Novitzky investigating that? Why is he targeting one person?
Everyone knew there was rampant doping in cycling.....just as there is in almost every professional sport. Would USPS be happier if their money was spent on jelly doughnuts?

Hmmm....'I'm Mr Investigator....Hey, USPS sponsored a cycling team for which they received a great return on the advertising..........I wonder if it is worth trying to figure out if any USPS sponsorship money was used inappropriately 10 years ago in a sport that everyone knew PED's were used......and in the process of figuring that out, I'm gonna spend millions in tax payer money, and absolutely trash the reputation of the biggest sports figure in the last decade and his cancer foundation'...

Uggh...what a ????ing waste.
+1
cheers

[indyrider]

I still don't get it.....In my mind, just a massive waste of tax payers money for this stupid investigation.

Uggh...what a ????ing waste.

Tell that to LA...All he needs to do is be honest, fess up, and THEN we will stop "wasting" the taxpayers dollar. Simple as that...

[BillG]

It should be investigated because of the sworn deposition in the multi-million dollar SCA lawsuit. Also if US Postal money was being used for systematic doping that's fairly serious don't you think?

[gdw]

"Originally Posted by oldguy00
I still don't get it.....In my mind, just a massive waste of tax payers money for this stupid investigation."

+1 The end result of this sham will be another sleazy prosecutor running for congress in 5 years and a drop in contributions to Armstrong's charity.

[BumbleBeeDave]

"Originally Posted by oldguy00
I still don't get it.....In my mind, just a massive waste of tax payers money for this stupid investigation."

+1 The end result of this sham will be another sleazy prosecutor running for congress in 5 years and a drop in contributions to Armstrong's charity.

. . . let's just stop looking for or prosecuting serious crime so no prosecutors will have a track record to run on for political office in the future. Having rampant crime couldn't possibly be worse than having these "sleazy" guys in political office of some sort . . . could it?

Better yet, let's just stop enforcing laws of any kind, as that would certainly ensure that no law enforcement officials of any kind run for any office in the future. Yep, that'll solve it! . . .

BBD

[ultraman6970]

In my opinion for the guys that are investigating this thing, the issue is that some money from the USPS was maybe used for doping, all the other stuff with the UCI and all the doping side stories that are coming up are just that, stories. So doping is just secondary in all this situation.

Now if the federals find out that money was used, then the UCI will have to do something. But 1st i believe the feds have to prove the doping allegations, and that will take them to find out from where the money came from: probably the feds do not give a damn that LA and team was just a bunch of experts in PEDs.

At the UCI side, I believe they won't do a thing because the "bus passed long time ago" and because they have some "dead bodies hidden also." So that means that LA will continue being Mr 7. and maybe Mr 7 and Co. knows where all the bodies were buried as well. So i really don't see why lance could lose his 7 regs as a TdF winner ever.

What sucks is that their lawyers think everybody is just dumb.

[gdw]

I'm all for prosecuting REAL criminals but fail to see how this witch hunt benefits the general population. Armstrong doesn't pose any danger to John Q as far as I know. He isn't a terrorist, didn't ripe-off anyones retirement funds, rape their housekeeper, or even send pictures of his junk to strangers. He cheated while playing a sport which the average American doesn't care about and has been corrupt since its start. Yawn. He played the game like the rest of the players but wasn't caught during his career. Too bad if you bought the spin but you should have known better. I'm more impressed with his fund raising efforts and expect that this circus will seriously impact a program which actually helps the average Joe.

[BillG]

I'm all for prosecuting REAL criminals but fail to see how this witch hunt benefits the general population. Armstrong doesn't pose any danger to John Q as far as I know. He isn't a terrorist, didn't ripe-off anyones retirement funds, rape their housekeeper, or even send pictures of his junk to strangers. He cheated while playing a sport which the average American doesn't care about and has been corrupt since its start. Yawn. He played the game like the rest of the players but wasn't caught during his career. Too bad if you bought the spin but you should have known better. I'm more impressed with his fund raising efforts and expect that this circus will seriously impact a program which actually helps the average Joe.

So you really think that using tax money to fund a doping program is not worth prosecuting? I'm not saying he did it. I'm saying that sounds like a serious crime. He's not being prosecuted for doping as such, he's being prosecuted for that and for perjury in a multi-million dollar lawsuit.

[ultraman6970]

By the way, anybody read this last year??

http://www.roadbikeaction.com/Most-Popular-Stories/content/69/3526/Leipheimer-Accused-of-Doping-at-Gerolsteiner.html

[oldguy00]

And, -if- USPS money was specifically used to buy drugs, why is Armstrong the specific one being investigated? What about the rest of the riders and staff? Or do they literally believe Armstrong orchestrated the entire thing?

[oldguy00]

. . . let's just stop looking for or prosecuting serious crime so no prosecutors will have a track record to run on for political office in the future. Having rampant crime couldn't possibly be worse than having these "sleazy" guys in political office of some sort . . . could it?

Better yet, let's just stop enforcing laws of any kind, as that would certainly ensure that no law enforcement officials of any kind run for any office in the future. Yep, that'll solve it! . . .

BBD

You make no sense. You are not considering the specific case in question, and are comparing it to other crimes that are more serious.
USPS sponsored a team in a sport that was known to be full of drugs. They got a return on their money via amazing advertising.
Destroying LA's reputation and potentially harming a very successful charity is not the same as putting a rapist in jail.
Its kind of sad that you can't tell the difference.

[BengeBoy]

And, -if- USPS money was specifically used to buy drugs, why is Armstrong the specific one being investigated? What about the rest of the riders and staff? Or do they literally believe Armstrong orchestrated the entire thing?


- Armstrong was allegedly a co-owner or Director of the company (Tailwind Sports) that had the contract with USPS.

- Who says that Armstrong is the only one being investigated?

Essential reading, if you really care about the background of all this:

http://blogs.sfweekly.com/thesnitch/2011/05/lance_armstrong_60_minutes.php

[Ray]

I'm all for prosecuting REAL criminals but fail to see how this witch hunt benefits the general population. Armstrong doesn't pose any danger to John Q as far as I know. He isn't a terrorist, didn't ripe-off anyones retirement funds, rape their housekeeper, or even send pictures of his junk to strangers.
Right, but he did drugs and was involved in the distribution of drugs. How many crackheads do we have rotting in jail on life sentences under the three strikes laws (while rich cokeheads get off easy) for essentially not posing any danger to John Q or raping anyone or being terrorists? Should we stop all drug prosecutions? I actually think there's a case to be made for it, but run for office on that one and see how well you do. There are a lot of laws on the books that each one of us probably thinks are stupid, but if they're laws and on the books they have to be enforced. Prostitution is illegal - which part of John Q is that hurting? But they're out rounding up hookers every night.

Although I think Lance probably had it coming, I think this is pretty stupid too. But I don't think its any more stupid than TONS of prosecutions of criminals for what amount to "morals" violations that hurt nobody else. There are a lot worse things happening in our legal system every day. So I can't get too worked up in Lance's defense. If he did the crime, there's an outside chance he might have to do the crime. OTOH, he can afford tons of expensive lawyers and people like that tend not to do much time at all.

-Ray

[djg21]

"Originally Posted by oldguy00
I still don't get it.....In my mind, just a massive waste of tax payers money for this stupid investigation."

+1 The end result of this sham will be another sleazy prosecutor running for congress in 5 years and a drop in contributions to Armstrong's charity.


And the alternative? Another (alleged) cheater/criminal running for Governor of Texas, and then god knows what?

[gdw]

And the alternative? Another (alleged) cheater/criminal running for Governor of Texas, and then god knows what?


Please. California maybe, Texas never. Real men don't wear lycra. :D

[djg21]

And the alternative? Another (alleged) cheater/criminal running for Governor of Texas, and then god knows what?


Please. California maybe, Texas never. Real men don't wear lycra. :D


I believe that this photo proves you wrong.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-U3m5OojCJG4/TbkG-ZBP4VI/AAAAAAAAIQs/t3Cs_37nmGI/s400/photo.jpg

Read about it here: http://www.wellsphere.com/biking-article/lance-armstrong-and-george-w-bush-bike-with-wounded-warriors/1417390

Two lying sacks of ???? out on a bike ride, and in the Republic of Texas.

On edit: Maybe the photo proves you right after all?

[Rueda Tropical]

He cheated while playing a sport which the average American doesn't care about and has been corrupt since its start. Yawn.

Sports are big business and doping in sports victimizes athletes who are forced to choose between a career or doing the right thing. Novitzky's unit exists to prosecute illegal drug use in sports and you won't find a higher profile perp then Armstrong. He wasn't just a user he was running the show and despite cycling's lack of popularity, Armstrong is perhaps the single most recognized athlete in the US. More well known then top baseball, basketball and football players.

Armstrong could have avoided this. He could have paid off Landis, which would have been cheaper then a few hours of his lawyers time. If you are going to engage in criminal activity take care of your fellow crooks who get busted. Don't leave them eating sh**t while you continue on the gravy train.

There's no going back now, LA is really screwed. If he is so worried about taxpayers money he should come clean now and end it. It's all coming out in the end anyway. It looks like the Italians are going to take a second crack at Dr. Ferrari thanks to Novitzky and the French, Swiss and I think even the Spanish are involved. If this takes down the UCI it might even temporarily clean up the sport. Which would benefit the athletes more then anyone else. I hope they offer Armstrong immunity and jail the regulators, doctors and managers who never had to make the choice between doping and a career that the pros had to make but chose to corrupt the sport anyway.

[Germany_chris]

The only thing more I'll say about this is, they'll never proved he doped and I hope he and his high priced lawyers beat the crap out of the FDA. I hope one this is done Novitsky goes back to the IRS to push some paper, and retires a forgotten man.

[GoJavs]

The only thing more I'll say about this is, they'll never proved he doped and I hope he and his high priced lawyers beat the crap out of the FDA. I hope one this is done Novitsky goes back to the IRS to push some paper, and retires a forgotten man.

---

Stay in fantasy land, GC.


Seriously shocked at the amount of shills that the Armstrong defense team has spread across the internets.

The dude cheated. Every single rider of his generation did. He needs to give up. It's sad.

[William]

The only thing more I'll say about this is, they'll never proved he doped and I hope he and his high priced lawyers beat the crap out of the FDA. I hope one this is done Novitsky goes back to the IRS to push some paper, and retires a forgotten man.

So help me understand what you are saying...

A.) You think Armstrong is totally innocent of the charges that he and his associates doped, dispensed prescription drugs, committed fraud, cheated at sporting events, and ruined the lives of those who tried to come clean through threats and intimidation with his legal counsel? That he and his associates are vindicated and Novitsky should go back under the rock that he came from?

Or...

B.) You don't care that Armstrong allegedly doped, dispensed prescription drugs, committed fraud, cheated at sporting events, and ruined the lives of those who tried to come clean through threats and intimidation with his legal counsel? That he and his associates are vindicated and Novitsky should go back under the rock that he came from?

Again, I'm just trying to understand your position.




William

[JMerring]

The only thing more I'll say about this is, they'll never proved he doped and I hope he and his high priced lawyers beat the crap out of the FDA. I hope one this is done Novitsky goes back to the IRS to push some paper, and retires a forgotten man.

Sorry to be the one to break it to you, but it has been proven already. There's just no court order or other governmental decree making it official.

[cmg]

Sorry to be the one to break it to you, but it has been proven already. There's just no court order or other governmental decree making it official.


i think they're going to have to make it official. which has proven difficult seeing that all the physical evidence has been disposed of long ago. why would anyone keep records of illegal activity? to incrimate themselves? your too late to prove it. sure they can find people that say they heard/saw illegal activity but physical evidence is hard to come by 2-10 years later. lots of luck. it's just pushing air.

[Germany_chris]

So help me understand what you are saying...

A.) You think Armstrong is totally innocent of the charges that he and his associates doped, dispensed prescription drugs, committed fraud, cheated at sporting events, and ruined the lives of those who tried to come clean through threats and intimidation with his legal counsel? That he and his associates are vindicated and Novitsky should go back under the rock that he came from?

Or...

B.) You don't care that Armstrong allegedly doped, dispensed prescription drugs, committed fraud, cheated at sporting events, and ruined the lives of those who tried to come clean through threats and intimidation with his legal counsel? That he and his associates are vindicated and Novitsky should go back under the rock that he came from?

Again, I'm just trying to understand your position.




William

I choose C: everything you said but they'll never prove he did anything and this and the bold 1000%

[Elefantino]

Wow. Just wow.

[BumbleBeeDave]

You make no sense. You are not considering the specific case in question, and are comparing it to other crimes that are more serious.
USPS sponsored a team in a sport that was known to be full of drugs. They got a return on their money via amazing advertising.
Destroying LA's reputation and potentially harming a very successful charity is not the same as putting a rapist in jail.
Its kind of sad that you can't tell the difference.

. . . and was employing bit of sarcasm. I'm not really too concerned about Lance's reputation. He destroyed it himself in my mind over the past years via his arrogant and bullying behavior in multiple instances that had nothing to do with drugs.

I am far more concerned with the very real possiblity of his active participatory and organizational role in an enterprise (the Postal team) that involved active fraud and money laundering asociated with supplying illegal prescription drugs to people (riders) who did not have valid medical prescriptions for those substances. Given some of the information hat has come forward regarding events back in the 90's, there is in my mind also a legit possibility that some of those riders who were given illegal Rx substances were unaware of what they were getting.

There is also the potential for the results of this investigation (and possible trial) to expose more widespread practices in professional cycling. The Postal team is only the focus because it is American run and therefore falls under the jurisdiction of Novitzky, et. al. but the practices laid open to public knowledge could very well be identical to those used by other teams not American-run.

Lance is the focus because he's the big fish and to me this is all the results of his own ego. If he had simply retired, dropped out of sight and stayed there, the chances of all of thsi coming about would have been hugely smaller.

But he simply could not deny his ego--and make no mistake, THAT'S what this comeback was all about. The noble quest to benefit cancer patients was a pretext. He may not have even realized it himself (small chance but it's there), but to me having watched him over 10 years it's just too obvious--his behavior over and over has shown the guy is an arrogant, bullying egomaniac and the results of all his actions in the past are coming home to roost.

BBD

[Rueda Tropical]

Proving he doped will be a piece of cake, financial fraud may be a lot tougher but Novitzky seems to think he's got his man. The testimony of every team mate on the team including best friend Hincapie, plus stored blood samples provided by the French that will light up for EPO like christmas trees with modern tests. Maybe with millions of $$$$$ of high powered lawyers he can avoid jail for financial fraud but if he lies about the doping he absolutely positively will go to jail for perjury.

Once the indictments come down this will push Weiner's weiner, Lohan, and every other tabloid story off the front page. This soap opera will get 24/7 coverage with Lance as the bad guy and Novitzky as Elliot Ness. The subject of doping in sports will be front and center and will probably start inquires into everything from high school PEDs abuse to questions about every other major sport.

[JMerring]

Wow. Just wow.

btw, elefantino, i really liked your post back on page 3. it provided a cogent and heartfelt analysis of the inherent conflicts at play.

[FlashUNC]

A guy crawls off his deathbed to beat the most doped peloton ever in convincing fashion in the most grueling event the sport has for seven years in a row. And does it all on mineral water and a good masseuse.

You pitch that as a made-for-TV movie and I think you get laughed out of the conference room.

[oldguy00]

I -was- going to enroll my 4 year old in Soccer this summer, but now that I see all these drugs in sports, I'm not going to. Time to pick up an Xbox for him.

;)

I bet CNN already has their panel of 500 experts to analyze, re-analyze, re-analyze again, etc etc....

[Pete Serotta]

But i am going to close this one.....

Lot of good info and food for thought has been posted here. Additionally good interaction has been shown.

Thankspete