OT - Inaction

[BobbyJones]

Does anyone else find this a little disturbing?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelookout/20110601/ts_yblog_thelookout/handcuffed-by-policy-fire-and-police-crews-watch-man-drown

In a nutshell:

‘Handcuffed by policy,’ fire and police crews watch man drown
By Zachary Roth

An apparently suicidal man waded into San Francisco Bay on Monday, stood up to his neck, and waited. As the man drowned, police, fire crews, and others watched idly from the shore.

Why? Officials blamed a departmental policy, stemming from budget cuts, that prevented them from jumping in to save him.

Fifty-year-old Raymond Zack spent nearly an hour in the water before drowning. A crowd of about 75 people, in addition to first responders, watched from the beach.....

[MattTuck]

Heard this story on the radio last night, sad. People should lose their jobs up and down that entire chain of command.

Shame on them.

[bicycletricycle]

"lacked training and gear to enter water"
????????????????????????????

[zap]

Saw that on the news last night. I told my wife that I just find that whole episode troubling.

I think if members of the rescue squad had an ounce of character they would have gone in and tried to rescue the fellow. Suffer the consequences later but knowing they did their best and having a lot of citizens backing them.

Now they are nothing.

[veloduffer]

From what I read, the water was 54 degrees, so hypothermia was an issue and would require cold water gear. The articles don't say what the policy mandate is.

[AngryScientist]

i'm sure we dont know the whole story, but if my job description is to "serve and protect", its pretty hard to justify letting a man drown in front of me.

i'm surprised that none of the bystanders jumped in and took action. it's easy to be an armchair qback, but i'm pretty sure i would have.

there is no way i'm going to let another human being (or dog, i love dogs) drown while i simply watch. no way.

[RPS]

Can’t help but think that society’s bias against mental illness may have played a part in decisions.

[rugbysecondrow]

Can’t help but think that society’s bias against mental illness may have played a part in decisions.

100% agree. Recently a friend of mine committed suicide leaving behind a wife and small child. An excerpt from what his brother wrote:

Remember him for his smile, his humor, his generousity. Second, please understand... he was overtaken by a disease... a disease that gets a lot less press or acceptance than others. A disease with such a negative stigma that no one talks about it. He suffered for years with depression, anxiety and ultimately bi-polar disorder. Unfortunately, mental illnesses come with an unspoken predjudice. People cursed with this disease have no control over it. They live in a world which we could never comprehend. They are not accepted as having a "disease". They aren't coddled and nurtured like those with other diseases. Rather, you hear words like "weak" or "crazy". Would anyone ever think someone diagnosed wth cancer as "weak" or "crazy"? Never. Please relay this message should you ever be in a situation where someone you know is struggling with a similar disease. Thanks again for your continued prayers and support. We will need them for a long time to come.

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

Can’t help but think that society’s bias against mental illness may have played a part in decisions.Almost no doubt. That, and the fact that society/companies/municipalities is/are in constant fear of being sued for the smallest thing. Product of an insanely over-litigious society.

[Idris Icabod]

This happened a couple of years ago in my town in the UK. A man got trapped in a metal drain cover during a flood and slowly drowned over many hours whilst police and firefighters looked on and the water rose and refused to be pragmatic. The man begged them to cut off his leg in the end.

[BobbyJones]

Please tell me you're embellishing the story on this one.

This happened a couple of years ago in my town in the UK. A man got trapped in a metal drain cover during a flood and slowly drowned over many hours whilst police and firefighters looked on and the water rose and refused to be pragmatic. The man begged them to cut off his leg in the end.

[Blue Jays]

"...Alameda Police Lt. Sean Lynch also suggested his men did the right thing. 'He (Raymond Zack) was engaged in a deliberate act of taking his own life,' Lynch told the Mercury News.
'We did not know whether he was violent, whether drugs were involved. It's not a situation of a typical rescue.'..."Jumping unprepared into icy-cold, turbulent, and shark-filled waters to attempt rescue of a person (who perhaps does not wish to be rescued) is a huge challenge.
What a horrible situation for everyone involved. :(

[MattTuck]

Jumping unprepared into icy-cold, turbulent, and shark-filled waters to attempt rescue of a person (who perhaps does not wish to be rescued) is a huge challenge.
What a horrible situation for everyone involved. :(

If everyone was non-violent, not involved with drugs and not acting in a way that could harm his/her future, we'd need a lot fewer people to "protect and serve".

As for unprepared, the guy was out there for the better part of an hour, I'm not sure how he survived so long if it was so treacherous. And they could have regrouped and gotten prepared in the time they had. The South Tower of the World Trade Center took 56 minutes to collapse after being hit by the plane, that should give you an idea of what kind of rescue effort can be done in an hour.

[Pete Serotta]

Pete


i'm sure we dont know the whole story, but if my job description is to "serve and protect", its pretty hard to justify letting a man drown in front of me.

i'm surprised that none of the bystanders jumped in and took action. it's easy to be an armchair qback, but i'm pretty sure i would have.

there is no way i'm going to let another human being (or dog, i love dogs) drown while i simply watch. no way.

[zap]

Much different situation but yet somewhat the same........a hero.......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenny_Skutnik

[SEABREEZE]

Here in Fl, you hear quite often on the news someone landed in a canal with there car only to have another traveling in another car stop, and save there life.

Perhaps there is more to the story, that hasnt come out yet, why they didnt.


As its very sad to see folks who are trained and paid, refuse to do there job.

[michael white]

I saw a report about the guy who drowned. He was a big guy and he was supposedly intent on suicide, so he might've taken someone with him. I can see why rescuers would hesitate. It would not be an easy situation.

[cmg]

probably spent the hour prior to his death trying to figure how to fund the rescue. trying to discover if the victim's health insurance covers failed rescue attempts.

[Blue Jays]

"...I saw a report about the guy who drowned.
He was a big guy and he was supposedly intent on suicide, so he might've taken someone with him.
I can see why rescuers would hesitate. It would not be an easy situation..."The rescuers were likely trying to determine how they could save the mentally-unbalanced man without getting injured or killed themselves.
The other challenge is that if one of them gets hurt in the process, THEY now need to be rescued as well.
Alameda Police Lt. Sean Lynch had it nailed in the narrative when he described that it wasn't the situation of a typical rescue.

[benb]

The news article leaves out a lot.. as a former lifeguard I would likely have jumped right in if I was first on the scene, if he had a knife or a gun I might have come to a bad end. If I was actually working as a lifeguard there, I'm going to assume I would have had a rescue tube or buoy, and if that was the case I would not have been worried about him dragging me under, only the threat of a weapon. That thought never crossed my mind when I was working.. All the people I pulled out were "active" victims which is the worst, but I would never, ever have thought about someone pulling a weapon on me.

54 degrees is cold but it should not have stopped them.. if he was in the water for an hour without dying the water was more then warm enough for a good rescuer to swim out and bring him back (again assuming he didn't pull a weapon) even if he fought. If it was dangerously cold there is no way he would have lasted an hour, and if it was that cold, he would have been seriously weakened compared to a rescuer and would not have been able to put up a strong fight. Real cold water will knock you out in minutes, and REALLY cold water instantly incapacitates you, it is like getting nailed by an NFL linemen and having the wind knocked out of you.

They don't mention surf conditions in the article. That is the big thing other then a weapon that would absolve the police/firefighters IMO. If there was a decent surf AND he resisted AND they didn't have a rescue tube/buoy/board, it would have been extremely dicey for someone who wasn't trained to go in after him. That is not the time and place to discover you aren't an expert swimmer and never learned how to modify your strokes to handle a victim. I'm a super strong swimmer and I obviously learned how to deal with surf conditions and it still scares the crap out of me.. it is a lot of work to deal with a victim and keep your head up for waves that might toss you like a ragdoll.

It is all very crazy though.. the coast guard should have been able to launch a zodiac and pull him out with a hook without risking a swimmer. It really really sounds like they strongly thought he had a weapon. There is definitely more of a story here then that article provides.

[RPS]

I agree it's tough to save someone who wants to kill himself. On the other hand, an hour is a long time. Couldn't they have at least called for a small inflatable boat or a helicopter so they could fish the guy out as soon as he passes out?

The comment about the water not being deep enough for a ship is also troubling. Don't most Coast Guard ships have smaller rescue boats of some type on board?

[RPS]

It is all very crazy though.. the coast guard should have been able to launch a zodiac and pull him out with a hook without risking a swimmer. It really really sounds like they strongly thought he had a weapon. There is definitely more of a story here then that article provides.
Same question I had -- missed your comment while typing.

[BobbyJones]

While everyone seems to acknowledge there are different ways to approach this I think we're all in agreement- NO ATTEMPT WAS MADE TO SAVE THIS PERSONS LIFE.

I'm not familiar with Alameda at all so in an attempt to find out more information, I watched the linked news broadcast and wondered A) How can you be an island and not have a water rescue plan in place? and B) Who had the keys to this boat they showed during the news clip?

[Lifelover]

Stories like this is why I hate the Fn media and have little respect for the sheeple that buy into the hype.

I know absolutely nothing of the specifics but I know that the typical profile of people who become cops, firefighters and rescue workers are very much Alpha male types who think they are above the law and indestructible.

Regardless of what some dim witted reporter and his loser ass editor print (or more importantly don't print) I suspect there was good reason not to follow in after him.

It easy for a bunch over over paid, under worked arm chair heros to sit back and say how they would have saved the day, but I suspect not one of you would have done jack ***** had you been there.


Jus Sayin!

[BobbyJones]

...and here you go again. Find some happiness Lifelover.

[yngpunk]

The news article leaves out a lot.. as a former lifeguard I would likely have jumped right in if I was first on the scene, if he had a knife or a gun I might have come to a bad end. If I was actually working as a lifeguard there, I'm going to assume I would have had a rescue tube or buoy, and if that was the case I would not have been worried about him dragging me under, only the threat of a weapon. That thought never crossed my mind when I was working.. All the people I pulled out were "active" victims which is the worst, but I would never, ever have thought about someone pulling a weapon on me.

54 degrees is cold but it should not have stopped them.. if he was in the water for an hour without dying the water was more then warm enough for a good rescuer to swim out and bring him back (again assuming he didn't pull a weapon) even if he fought. If it was dangerously cold there is no way he would have lasted an hour, and if it was that cold, he would have been seriously weakened compared to a rescuer and would not have been able to put up a strong fight. Real cold water will knock you out in minutes, and REALLY cold water instantly incapacitates you, it is like getting nailed by an NFL linemen and having the wind knocked out of you.

They don't mention surf conditions in the article. That is the big thing other then a weapon that would absolve the police/firefighters IMO. If there was a decent surf AND he resisted AND they didn't have a rescue tube/buoy/board, it would have been extremely dicey for someone who wasn't trained to go in after him. That is not the time and place to discover you aren't an expert swimmer and never learned how to modify your strokes to handle a victim. I'm a super strong swimmer and I obviously learned how to deal with surf conditions and it still scares the crap out of me.. it is a lot of work to deal with a victim and keep your head up for waves that might toss you like a ragdoll.

It is all very crazy though.. the coast guard should have been able to launch a zodiac and pull him out with a hook without risking a swimmer. It really really sounds like they strongly thought he had a weapon. There is definitely more of a story here then that article provides.

benb makes a good point above. Trying to save a drowning victim isn't as easy as it sounds, esp. when you're not trained in how to deal with someone who's first instinct would be to grab on to you.

I'm not a life guard, but skydiving instructors train for tandem jumps with other experience instructors acting like panicking "passengers" strapped to them and start thrashing around so you learn how to handle the situation without going into a uncontrolled spin.

[Idris Icabod]

Please tell me you're embellishing the story on this one.

Unfortunately no embellishment. The man's father was even notified and was on scene begging with the firefighters to do something. The news stories about it were horrific, he was there all day as the water rose. The only story I found from a quick google search are:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1983094.ece

[RPS]

Unfortunately no embellishment. The man's father was even notified and was on scene begging with the firefighters to do something. The news stories about it were horrific, he was there all day as the water rose. The only story I found from a quick google search are:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1983094.ece
That’s sad. Makes a good case for legalizing euthanasia.

[Dekonick]

Oh boy. What really sucks is not that the emergency responders did not 'jump in' but the fact that they were not trained and equipped to do so. It is easy to judge and blame them - if the tables were turned I don't even know what I would do. I have no life guard training - but I do know that someone drowning can easily take a would be rescuer and make them victim number 2. The worst part is that an island has emergency crews not trained to do water rescue. I do know this: If one of my firefighters jumps in to save someone, they had better damn well be properly trained and equipped. I would absolutely FRY one of my employees if they broke any of our operating procedures without an order! What looks like a simple rescue was not as it appeared. Suicidal people are often homicidal if you interfere... I have witnessed it first hand. I feel terrible for everyone involved EXCEPT upper management and the elected officials that let an emergency service on an island not have this kind of training. Without the training and equipment, they should not have even been dispatched.

For those of you who would have jumped in to rescue this person - I applaud your desire to want to help. What you can not understand is the restrictions placed on rescuers by local SOP's as well as local, state and federal laws. If any of them had gone after this fellow, they would have been roasted alive by the same folks. (and probably given an award by the same people that put them in a bad situation by not giving the proper equipment and training to them in the first place)

On more than one occasion, I have had to NOT give a medication or do a procedure that I knew would benefit my patient because I HAVE to follow protocols... it is nearly impossible to understand how that makes you feel - it boils your blood, makes you feel guilty, but if you DO act, you will have your license revoked and then how helpful are you?

Easy to cast stones. In this case I blame the elected officials for skimping on funding for training and supplies AS WELL as the management of the emergency responders. Watch them all back peddle and take 'progressive' steps to make sure it doesn't happen again...

Don't blame the little guy - in this case they shouldn't have been there at all... or they should have been properly trained and equipped.

My view and I am sticking to it.

FWIW - if you live in Howard County, the only folks allowed in water to rescue someone are the members of the Special Operations team that have training in swift water rescue - unless it is an ice rescue, then every career firefighter is trained. The reason for this is because one of our firefighters almost died attempting a rescue... because he was not properly trained.

In this case, they relied on the Coasties for water rescue. The fire service had no business being there - not any more than animal control or public works... as they would have the same training as every bystander - NONE.