Di2 - Wireless?

[jpw]

Has anyone heard talk of a wireless Di2 being road tested?

[MattTuck]

nope, but can you Imagine some crazy fan hacking the wireless signals!!


The entire peloton has shifted into the big ring up front and 11 tooth cog on the ascent of the galibier! no one can get enough momentum to start again.

:eek: :eek: :eek:

[jpw]

I heard from someone who's heard that Team Rabobank is out on the road testing a wireless version at the moment. Not in competition, but on training rides.

Sounds like Shimano is about to burst the Ci2 party balloons.

[RPS]

If Shimano doesn’t do it themselves I’d expect some clever aftermarket adaptors will be made before too long.

[victoryfactory]

You got my attention.
Opens up a whole new range of installation possibilities
for retrofit

[PaulE]

Wirelss will need separate batteries for front and rear derailleurs, plus shifters, no? Could use one battery for 2 shifters with wire under bartape though.

[tooonee]

I have a few friends who work for them and haven't seen any prototypes. I'll have to ask.

[bicycletricycle]

skin cancer on my hands is going to be awesome

[Charles M]

...

[jpw]

skin cancer on my hands is going to be awesome

Di2 wireless - code name 'Fukashimano'.

Did the Rabobank road rats have to sign a disclaimer I wonder?

[jpw]

I have a few friends who work for them and haven't seen any prototypes. I'll have to ask.

Yes please do.

I haven't seen any concrete evidence of this either. No snatched blurry photographs taken outside coffee shops, but as Shimano Europe is I believe based in The Netherlands, and Team Rabobank being a Dutch team, it kind of makes sense. Also, the current Di2 has been around in its consumer form for about three years now, plenty of time for the developers to have made good progress on a wireless prototype. If it's nearly ready now would be perfect timing to prepare to release it when Campag decides to release Ci2, and at a similar price. Shimano might then also reduce the wired version to a price point that makes Ci2 wired look like a rip off. Good for DA users, bad for Campagnolo.

Mektronic is over ten years ago. Di2 wireless must be soon.

[oldpotatoe]

Has anyone heard talk of a wireless Di2 being road tested?

I doubt if it ever will be. So much is involved with signal strength and battery strength and life. It works so well, I doubt it will become wireless. Don't know what advantage wireless would be but then again, lots of stuff in 'bicycles' these days make no sense.

[oldpotatoe]

Yes please do.

I haven't seen any concrete evidence of this either. No snatched blurry photographs taken outside coffee shops, but as Shimano Europe is I believe based in The Netherlands, and Team Rabobank being a Dutch team, it kind of makes sense. Also, the current Di2 has been around in its consumer form for about three years now, plenty of time for the developers to have made good progress on a wireless prototype. If it's nearly ready now would be perfect timing to prepare to release it when Campag decides to release Ci2, and at a similar price. Shimano might then also reduce the wired version to a price point that makes Ci2 wired look like a rip off. Good for DA users, bad for Campagnolo.

Mektronic is over ten years ago. Di2 wireless must be soon.

-Mektronic's failure was way more than 10 years ago.
-Campagnolo hasn't decided to even market electronic, they are not sure the market is there.
-Di2, altho you see it a lot in the peloton these days, sells at a fraction of 7900 mechanical in terms of numbers.
-You'll see a wired XTR electronic way before you see a Di2 wireless.

[KeithS]

As OldPotatoe suggested, miniturized power supplies and wireless are problematic. Did you ever notice how fast your smart phone battery goes dead when you are in a Wifi mode? I have an Android and if I turn on 4G and/or 802.11 the battery life is cut way down. Adding wireless would be a $10 answer to a fifty cent problem, it takes a lot more power to fire a servo motor to change gears too. I've been in telecom for over 20 years, the biggest problem with the proliferation of enterprise wireless technology has always been pricepoint and reliability/durability for the reasons stated.

I can start my new car from my Android now with OnStar. I would imagine those with nefarious intent can too. I like Matt's scenario. Not too far from the truth. The current wired electronic is very reliable with forever battery life. But then again, no one ever went broke underestimating what monied people will spend on cool stuff...

[RPS]

As OldPotatoe suggested, miniturized power supplies and wireless are problematic. Did you ever notice how fast your smart phone battery goes dead when you are in a Wifi mode? I have an Android and if I turn on 4G and/or 802.11 the battery life is cut way down. Adding wireless would be a $10 answer to a fifty cent problem, it takes a lot more power to fire a servo motor to change gears too. I've been in telecom for over 20 years, the biggest problem with the proliferation of enterprise wireless technology has always been pricepoint and reliability/durability for the reasons stated.

I can start my new car from my Android now with OnStar. I would imagine those with nefarious intent can too. I like Matt's scenario. Not too far from the truth. The current wired electronic is very reliable with forever battery life. But then again, no one ever went broke underestimating what monied people will spend on cool stuff...
Unless I'm mistaken, we are only talking about the wireless control "signal" to change gears, not the power to actually fire any servo. That would still come from large batteries as at present. It appears obvious you think it's far more complicated than that, and I honestly would like to know why it's not as simple as other remote systems.

Personally I expect that in time the overall bike cost will be lower. Remote controls for all kinds of devices are extremely cheap now (assuming something similar can work OK) and in volume will cost less than wiring harnesses and the added cost to route cables through bike frames.

I wouldn't mind trying electrical shifting but would prefer to wait for wireless. I see it no different than wanting a wireless computer over one with wires hanging off the fork. They both work but I like one much better than the other, and don't mind having to replace an extra battery once in a while.

[Charles M]

You're not mistaken... (RPS )

And Yes. There is a functioning wireless option being worked on.

Not saying where it's comming from or when it / if will market (so as to spare the maker the inevitable charges of "vaporware" and "dont have the tech" and "taking way too long" from folks who dont have a clue how things work but are sure they could do it better)

[swt]

Not really. There are tons of low power PAN designs out there. Wouldn't require much more than what's required to run ANT+ to your power meter, etc.

I'd say wireless is inevitable, but I think that Electric Ultegra is a much higher priority for them right now.



As OldPotatoe suggested, miniturized power supplies and wireless are problematic. Did you ever notice how fast your smart phone battery goes dead when you are in a Wifi mode? I have an Android and if I turn on 4G and/or 802.11 the battery life is cut way down. Adding wireless would be a $10 answer to a fifty cent problem, it takes a lot more power to fire a servo motor to change gears too. I've been in telecom for over 20 years, the biggest problem with the proliferation of enterprise wireless technology has always been pricepoint and reliability/durability for the reasons stated.

I can start my new car from my Android now with OnStar. I would imagine those with nefarious intent can too. I like Matt's scenario. Not too far from the truth. The current wired electronic is very reliable with forever battery life. But then again, no one ever went broke underestimating what monied people will spend on cool stuff...

[Mark McM]

As OldPotatoe suggested, miniturized power supplies and wireless are problematic. Did you ever notice how fast your smart phone battery goes dead when you are in a Wifi mode? I have an Android and if I turn on 4G and/or 802.11 the battery life is cut way down.

The requirements for maintaining a high-speed wireless data communications link are vastly more power intensively that what would be required for a a wireless shifter.

An analogy for what would be required for wireless shifters might be a car keyless remote. They have "lock" and "unlock" buttons, which can remotely fire a solenoid to actuate the lock in one direction or another as needed - not unlike the "upshift" and "downshift" buttons actuating the derailleur in one direction or the other. A keyless remote has an encrypted coding scheme, which prevents a keyless remote from locking/unlocking the wrong car, plus the encryption keys are constantly changing to prevent anyone from hacking the remote. A keyless remote can function for many years on a single lithium watch battery. Granted, one shifts far more frequently than one locks/unlocks their car, but the battery size required for even a full riding season is probably not large at all.

Another point of reference is wireless bicycle computers. The sensor transmits data constantly when the bike is in motion, with an update rate of several times per second. The update rate for a a shifter would be far lower.

(Of course, I still think electronic shifting is mostly a gimmick.)

[1centaur]

And Yes. There is a functioning wireless option being worked on.

Not saying where it's comming from or when it / if will market (so as to spare the maker the inevitable charges of "vaporware" and "dont have the tech" and "taking way too long" from folks who dont have a clue how things work but are sure they could do it better)

Oh you tease.

[jpw]

You're not mistaken... (RPS )

And Yes. There is a functioning wireless option being worked on.

Not saying where it's comming from or when it / if will market (so as to spare the maker the inevitable charges of "vaporware" and "dont have the tech" and "taking way too long" from folks who dont have a clue how things work but are sure they could do it better)

Chatterbox :D

[jamesutiopia]

The MTB world is being force-fed 2x10, so surely Di2 XTR cannot be far over the horizon.

Back in road land, how about RD derailleur battery in the hub shell (with the power meter, contact would be something like this (http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/schmidt-sl.asp); extra credit for scavenging power from freehub when coasting), transmitter batteries in the shifter body, and FD powered by battery strapped to DT (or stuffed inside, where the Gruber assist is supposed to be). Power needs for the wireless portion should be lower than ANT+, as has already been pointed out.

A less ambitious option might be to wire the FD and RD together through/along the chainstay with a single larger battery strapped to the ST (perhaps hidden inside, or in the seatpost), and skip the long run up to the bars.

Keeping all these batteries charged/fresh would be a PITA, especially if they are hidden

[jpw]

The MTB world is being force-fed 2x10, so surely Di2 XTR cannot be far over the horizon.

Back in road land, how about RD derailleur battery in the hub shell (with the power meter, contact would be something like this (http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/schmidt-sl.asp); extra credit for scavenging power from freehub when coasting), transmitter batteries in the shifter body, and FD powered by battery strapped to DT (or stuffed inside, where the Gruber assist is supposed to be). Power needs for the wireless portion should be lower than ANT+, as has already been pointed out.

A less ambitious option might be to wire the FD and RD together through/along the chainstay with a single larger battery strapped to the ST (perhaps hidden inside, or in the seatpost), and skip the long run up to the bars.

Keeping all these batteries charged/fresh would be a PITA, especially if they are hidden

Yes, a KERS would be excellent, no charging time required.

The beauty of a wireless system for frame builders is no holes in the structure. The internal cables option may not be an option for very long.

[1centaur]

Now we need wireless braking.

[RPS]

Since bikes are associated with being so eco-friendly, maybe this will be an excellent opportunity to highlight solar power for battery charging.

Like calculator and watch batteries that charge from miniature solar panels, the low-power needed for transmitters may not require batteries to be charged or replaced as often if augmented every time we ride on a sunny day. I’m just dreaming of a future beyond what is right in front of us today. Actually, except for unacceptable weight, cost, and packaging, the technology is already being used in auto and rv applications to power small fans and the like at much higher power levels. It’s just a matter of time IMO before it’s made smaller and packaged to fit a bike’s need. On the flip side if inexpensive batteries last for years the incentive to eliminate replacement isn’t great.

Either way I think the future will be based on having as few moving parts as absolutely necessary. It’s more complex and challenging to develop initially but will be easier to maintain in the long run; and more durable too.

[RPS]

Now we need wireless braking.
First they must perfect electrical brakes and lower costs. :rolleyes:

Seriously, electric brakes for autos are not that far off. I expect hydraulic car brakes will be history before too long.