OT: Sports Cars

[Dave B]

In about 18 months I will have my car paid off and want to get rid of it. It is an SUV. I have driven an SUV for so effing long I am kind of sick of them. My wife has an SUV, a cool one I like. She likes it. We will have it for another 4 to 5 years...if all goes well. I just want a new experience. I want to have fun and really enjoy driving.

I have never owned a sports car. I REALLY want one and my beautiful wife also thinks it would be fun. I have very little experience driving a sports car and while I know how to drive pretty well I knwo there will be things with a powerful car I need to learn...gladly so!

I think a mustang or corvette would be a blast and on carmax you can get older ones with decent miles for good prices. With my SUV in trade I wouldn't have to spend a fortune.

Soooo, having a 11 mile round trip (I do commute on days I do not have to drive my daughter to school and pick her up at the bus stop) to work, so do sports cars suck as daily drivers? I mean they all drive, they were built to drive so I don't know why they wouldn't be ok, but I am not sure how finicky they can be.

I want speed and power and the ones I mentioned have both. I amsure there are loads of other options, but any thoughts would be fun to listen to.

[dnades]

what price range are you looking in?

[djg]

I'm not sure about daily drivers, as I typically ride to work, but a sports car can be just fine on a daily basis, for commuting, etc. A sports car, IMO, is not necessarily a pure race car -- not just a track beast or a hot-house flower. Many are fairly reliable and many have decent creature comforts. Still, you might want to look at cost of maintenance and/or the price of an extended warranty on certain cars -- it varies, a lot, and depending on what you like -- it can be substantial. Heck, plenty more folks can afford some type of decently running used Ferrari than a new one, but that doesn't mean that they're prepared to keep the thing running. This is not to disuade you from anything in particular -- just to suggest that you think about costs overall.

There's also the question whether your daily commute involves a lot of sitting in traffic or stop and go driving. I like my 6 speed manual transmission just fine, thanks, but I wouldn't say it's ideal for sitting in traffic.

Two seats or four? I bought a BMW M3 ("pre-owned" after about 10 years of hankering) -- it's just what I wanted. At the same time, it's a darn good thing that it has a usable back seat (not large or spacious, but usable, and not just nominal or vestigial, like on a 911). I've got 3 kids and my fun car would be a lot less fun -- and a lot less useful -- if I couldn't put anybody or anything in the back seat. Nothing wrong with a classic roadster or any other 2-seater fundamentally, but the corvette (or boxster, or lotus, or S2000, or miata, etc.) will not carry you plus the wife plus the daughter, ever (or the daughter plus a 2d kid for a car-pool).

Daily driver year-round? Does it snow where you live? How much? My M3 is a great handling car. Unless it snows. I could put different tires on it and make it suck less in the snow, but it's never going to be average, much less good, in real winter driving. Not a frequent big deal here in Virginia, but something to consider with any car that combines rwd, sport tires, and lotsa torque, and maybe especially an issue with certain otherwise very fine options.

If you can work your way through these various considerations and find something that really floats your boat and fits your budget . . . well, why not?

[1centaur]

Do you want a sports car for the 11 mile round trip or for weekends? If the former, you should specify the driving type, especially max speed limit on the route and opportunities to accelerate. Some cars are great 30-60 and some 0-40; the nature of those 11 miles might sway the conversation.

If you just want a decent commuting car and a great weekend car, then what kinds of roads are we talking about?

We may soon hear comments about muscle cars vs. sports cars too, suspensions, torque bands, exhaust notes......

[Ken Robb]

My 1998 M3 with really good snow tires was very good in snow as long as it didn't get so deep the wheels came off the ground.
New first rate snow tires are amazing.

[crownjewelwl]

you can get a late model Porsche C4 for a decent price. throw some snows on for the winter. def a daily driver.

[David Kirk]

I think one would need to better define 'sports car'. You mention tow cars - a mustang and a vette. The first is IMO a cruiser/muscle car and the second a real sports car.

I know everyone might not feel this way but I see 'sports cars' as being light and simple and smallish. Everything from an M3 to a Miata to a 911 could be considered sports cars IMO.

American muscle (even modern versions) are usually big and heavy and may be good at 0-60 blasts but not as good at cornering and feeling 'sporty'. I see the new cameros and mustangs and dodges being this way. Fun but not a sports car in the traditional way they are thought of.

I would test drive a mustang and a vette back to back. They are VERY different cars. One is a Mievici and the other is a sport touring bike. Both are fun, but very different from one another.

i would also throw into the mix cars like an M3 and even a Miata. The Miata isn't fast but it is much sportier than most any mustang.

Take some test drives and feel what the car is good at and likes to do and then pick what is best for you.

I like very small and very quick cars and use them as daily drivers whenever I can. Life is too short to be bored while driving.

dave

[flydhest]

Rag top.
I own an S2000. It is Pete and SPOKES' fault, as they used to own one each. One of the summers I was teaching at Duke, Pete let me stay with him and drive his around. I was hooked. The only caveat is at 6'2" I am at the very limit of size.

OK, back to your question, get a convertible. A two-seater is great, but very limiting. Sometimes, however, that limitation is a good thing. Regardless, though, get a convertible. You can always keep the top up if you have crap weather. You will hate commuting less.

I usually bike to work and put between 1000 and 2000 miles per year on my car, but I enjoy the heck out of those miles, even if it is stop-and-go traffic or just running errands.

Mustangs and Vettes both come as convertibles. If that is what you want, do it. I would try other things, including an s2000, as "sports car" to me is about simple, old school as opposed to "muscle cars" which is where I would put the Stang and the Vette. I would not, however, want to argue over labels.

[Dave B]

I mentioned the distance to and form work as my daily drive isn't far. Roads are fine and I have never thought of having a sports car as a second car. With regards to snow, we will have a Jeep that gets us anywhere.

Whatever I get will be driven as frequently as possible, but deep snow and ice will be in the Jeep.

A BMW M3 sounds great. Price range...no idea, lower the better. honestly it will be the deal that seals it. Seats...like I said we have a 4 door jeep so we can use that as the family truckster. This idea was literally born out of my wife suggesting I get something fun. SUV's just seem like the new station wagon. I have nothign against them, I am just curious about fast... 0 to 6o. Not a lot of places to really open a car up around me minus the speedway.

I have NO clue as to what to look for. I just have alwasy loved the idea of a fast car. I had a buddy who has had a couple of mustangs, GT, Cobra, etc. They are so much cheaper then a BMW, but I suppose BMW might be built with higher quality. I have no reason to think that other then mystique.

Might just be something as simple as I am tired of driving what i am and a sports car is the opposite of that. Not sure if I am that close to the mid life crisis, but you never know. :)

[Dave B]

I think one would need to better define 'sports car'. You mention tow cars - a mustang and a vette. The first is IMO a cruiser/muscle car and the second a real sports car.

I know everyone might not feel this way but I see 'sports cars' as being light and simple and smallish. Everything from an M3 to a Miata to a 911 could be considered sports cars IMO.

American muscle (even modern versions) are usually big and heavy and may be good at 0-60 blasts but not as good at cornering and feeling 'sporty'. I see the new cameros and mustangs and dodges being this way. Fun but not a sports car in the traditional way they are thought of.

I would test drive a mustang and a vette back to back. They are VERY different cars. One is a Mievici and the other is a sport touring bike. Both are fun, but very different from one another.

i would also throw into the mix cars like an M3 and even a Miata. The Miata isn't fast but it is much sportier than most any mustang.

Take some test drives and feel what the car is good at and likes to do and then pick what is best for you.

I like very small and very quick cars and use them as daily drivers whenever I can. Life is too short to be bored while driving.

dave


Dave you have good points here. I have no law to stick with American cars. I am just learnign and figured folks here would have more experience then me.

I know sandy has mentioned his Porsche as well as his M3. I also know you have a wonderful slew of experiences. I do understand what you are saying, maybe I am not asking the right questions yet. hence the beginning I am at.

I also understand your description of the heavy "muscle" car versus a true sports car. Something I had never even considered. Thanks!

[FlashUNC]

You may also want to consider the new group of hot hatches making their way to the U.S.

The Ford Focus ST should be a hoot to drive and give you enough practical room for day to day living. I drive a 2010 GTI which can comfortably seat 5, has enough room in the trunk for stuff, the seats can fold down for more cargo room, but is still a blast to drive on weekends when I really give it the beans.

Secondarily, my girlfriend just bought a low mileage 2004 Mazdaspeed Miata. Unbelieveably fun to drive, and certainly quick enough for most mortal drivers. If not for the fact I can't really fit in the thing as a driver, I'd steal the keys from her more often than I do.

[zap]

I would recommend test drives to help determine what you want.

Also factor in running costs. Entry price for cars in the US is low but maintenance can be high for BMWs, Mercedes (look at AMG SLK & SL) and Porsches.

[radsmd]

As has been said above, very wide range of cars depending on what you're looking for. If you are looking for a fun inexpensive car, daily driver, then it is tough to beat a Mazda Miata. Great handling, rear wheel drive, light, reliable, doesn't need all the power to push it, great manual gearbox, but you need to get over the "chick" car connotation.

I personally started with the Miata, then moved on to a BMW 335 (great power and handling) after having a couple of kids, now in a BMW M3. Looking for a fun little convertible now for the weekends, poss another Miata or S2000.

[christian]

For a modern daily-driver sports car, I don't think you can do much better than a Miata or Honda S2000.

For a classic daily-driver sports car, the 1979-1983 Porsche 911 SC would be my choice. I found the 3.0 liter K-Jet cars cheaper to run than the 84-89 3.2 LH-Motronic cars.

For the "odd classic" daily-driver, I'd get a supercharged MkI Toyota MR2.

For a proper, proper sports car, I'd start shopping around for a DeDion-axled, Ford or Opel-powered Caterham Super 7. If it doesn't rain too often where you are, it's a perfectly practical vehicle.

If you have Serotta budgets in mind, I'd get a 1998 993 4S. As late production number as possible.

[rice rocket]

Since you're "new" to sports cars, I suggest the Miata as well. It's not necessarily the fastest (alright, it's not fast at all), but it does feel fast and corners like no other.

S2000 is also great, I leased one for 3 years. By the 3rd year, I was wanting more power, but 240hp was plenty for the first two years. I'll probably find my way back in one in the next 5 years or so (depending on how this RX-7 project unfolds), they really are a gem in the market. Ultra reliable, super easy to work on, and "enough" power. I may have to work on the power if I pick up another though.

Oh, and you can get 30 mpg highway if you're not driving like me. ;)

[Louis]

Subaru Impreza WRX or if you want a real race car, Impreza WRX STI.

http://www.seriouswheels.com/pics-2006/2006-Subaru-Impreza-WRX-STI-FA-Speed-1024x768.jpg

[xjahx]

May I suggest a Prius? 'tis the most fun that I have had driving (under 20mph) ever. That gentle buzzing sound that the electric motor makes gets the ladies going as well.

In all seriousness, I drove sports and muscle cars as a youngster ('52 MG TD with a 289 V8 conversion, '60 Austin Healey 3000, '63 Vette split window, '69 Chevelle SS 496, '89 911 turbo...); they were all fun and exciting to drive for unique reasons. Jesus, that list makes me look like I am 70+ years old. None were daily drivers, but with the more modern vehicles like the M3, SLK, Cayman, I think that they would hold up better to daily use.

Owning any of the above, however, is like racing a Super Record equipped $7500-$10,000 bike. We say do not race it, the bike, unless you can afford to replace it. With the cars, simply driving it requires you to budget much more for every aspect: insurance, tires, routine maintenance. That M3 where you can afford the sticker will more than double your insurance, double your cost of tires, and g-d forbid you have a serious issue that is not under the warranty.

Final point, think about how you will drive the car. I drove several of the above like they were intended to be driven. I realized, though, there are only so many times that you can get from 0-35 in 2s and 0-70 when merging on the highway in under 5 before it gets old. Also, I was taking risks that I would not have been otherwise. It was not how I wanted to interact with others around me, especially cyclists or pedestrians.

I can still talk cars like the guy next to me, but I just wanted to share my experience and a few things to consider. I am glad I drove what I did as a kid, but now that I have hit 30, I blow my money on bikes.

[jlyon]

May I suggest a Prius? 'tis the most fun that I have had driving (under 20mph) ever. That gentle buzzing sound that the electric motor makes gets the ladies going as well.

In all seriousness, I drove sports and muscle cars as a youngster ('52 MG TD with a 289 V8 conversion, '60 Austin Healey 3000, '63 Vette split window, '69 Chevelle SS 496, '89 911 turbo...); they were all fun and exciting to drive for unique reasons. Jesus, that list makes me look like I am 70+ years old. None were daily drivers, but with the more modern vehicles like the M3, SLK, Cayman, I think that they would hold up better to daily use.

Owning any of the above, however, is like racing a Super Record equipped $7500-$10,000 bike. We say do not race it, the bike, unless you can afford to replace it. With the cars, simply driving it requires you to budget much more for every aspect: insurance, tires, routine maintenance. That M3 where you can afford the sticker will more than double your insurance, double your cost of tires, and g-d forbid you have a serious issue that is not under the warranty.

Final point, think about how you will drive the car. I drove several of the above like they were intended to be driven. I realized, though, there are only so many times that you can get from 0-35 in 2s and 0-70 when merging on the highway in under 5 before it gets old. Also, I was taking risks that I would not have been otherwise. It was not how I wanted to interact with others around me, especially cyclists or pedestrians.

I can still talk cars like the guy next to me, but I just wanted to share my experience and a few things to consider. I am glad I drove what I did as a kid, but now that I have hit 30, I blow my money on bikes.

You are wiser than your years. But I still yearn for the new 2012 Hyundai Genesis Sedan 5.0 R spec. Fast and Luxurious.

[rice rocket]

The M3 was a bad example to pick, because BMW offers zero maintenance warranties on all their new cars. That means free tires, free brake pads, free wipers, free wiper fluid, free oil changes, etc.

But I get what you're driving at... ;)

[palincss]

You might consider the Mazda MX5 (formerly known as the Miata). This is a highly reliable, not very expensive car that became an instant classic the instant the first one was delivered because it was the summation and the perfection of every British roadster. As an added bonus, it has good gas mileage. You can have a blast in it without driving at ten tenths and without risking your life every second.

[davidlee]

BMW 335i
Plenty fast enough.. Very easy to mod if you want more power and reliable to boot. With a Dinan chip you can get 'em close to 400 ponies.
Prices are getting very reasonable for lightly used.

[jghall]

Dave,
Quite a few cars for you to consider really. May also want to consider the potential repairs costs as is relates to your disposable income.

Can tell you first had while my 928 was a blast to drive, it also cost me a fortune.

[David Kirk]

I think you have a bunch of fun directly in front of you. I would spend some days going from dealer to dealer and trying different stuff and see what resonates with you. Different stroke for different folks as they say.

I've owned a number of classic sports cars over the years and I finally bought a car without carburetors 1 1/2 years ago.

Like I said - I like small. They feel the closest to bikes or motorbikes like this. Flickable, tossable, and just plain fun. The downside for some is the feeling of exposure with such a small and low car. The first time you line up next to an 18 wheeler and look straight across at the lug nuts of the wheels and cars like Civics loom over you. This has never bothered me but Karin can't stand it.

So drive stuff from different groups - The Miata/S2000/Mr2 types and then the larger and more powerful Mustang types and fianlly the middle group like M3s and 911's.

Here's a few photos of my old car (1999 Birkin S3) and my current sports car (2005 Supercharged Lotus Elise). Way too much fun if you like this kind of thing. I wouldn't use the Birkin as a daily driver just for safety reasons but the Elise would be my only car if I didn't live where it snowed. 0-60 in 4 seconds and 35 mpg - pretty good combo.

Dave

P.S. if you really want to up the grin factor once you have a car take a performance driving class with it and learn to use it the way it was designed to be used. Holy crap it's fun.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5299/5471437031_8e002d1afc_b.jpg
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5208/5729818539_fe0a529b4d_b.jpg

[RPS]

I want speed and power and the ones I mentioned have both. I amsure there are loads of other options, but any thoughts would be fun to listen to.
When you narrow the choices down, I recommend you rent one for a few days to get a better feeling of what each offers .... and doesn't. Driving around the block a few times doesn't really cut it as far as I'm concerned when making such an important purchase. After a few days you may decide you don't even want one.

Mustangs are easy and inexpensive to rent -- my son had one last week during training out of state. Corvettes and other "truer" sports cars may be harder to find but probably worth it if you can find a place that rents them.

[legacysti888]

Great, practical cars with sporty performance but not what I call a sports car per se. I think they fall in the GT territory if they are in stock OEM form. However, they can turn into a WRC replica quite easily with tons of aftermarket parts readily available for them.

I had a choice to buy one of them in 2005 but decided on the older, 'your grandpa's' Subaru, the boring looking, Legacy GT manual instead. Bought it used with 1,500 miles for $18k. I wanted a sporty GT, but not the harsh ride and impracticality of a sports car, like the Lotus Elise or even the ZR1 (I have driven them). After driving it stock for about a year, I got hooked on its tight chassis and performance but didn't want to pay for sports car insurance prices if I bought a 'true' sports car. I decided to hop up the power and handling of my Legacy to see if it would satisfy my needs.
Long story short, the stock Legacy has 250bhp/250torque. It was fun but boringly slow once you are accustomed to it.
Now it has well over 500bhp/500torque with a upgraded suspension/brake setup perfectly matched with it. It also has a new 6 speed trans to handle the power. It's my daily driver and have been very happy with my four door 'sports car.'
The cost of ownership of a Subaru is low IMHO and they are extremely reliable.
Best of luck on your search for your sports car!

[flydhest]

You might consider the Mazda MX5 (formerly known as the Miata). This is a highly reliable, not very expensive car that became an instant classic the instant the first one was delivered because it was the summation and the perfection of every British roadster. As an added bonus, it has good gas mileage. You can have a blast in it without driving at ten tenths and without risking your life every second.

It is more money (and no longer made new) but the S2000 is the Miata to the next level. Simple, good mileage, great handling, and yet faster than you really ever need it to be. With a redline at 9000 and six forward gears, it is sooooo much fun to drive.

Plus, Honda makes reliable cars.

[Dave B]

Good stuff.

I love the thought of a M3, but the prices for even used ones seem really high...more then likely worth it.

I ws thinking about the American choices simply do to availability of parts and the potential repair costs. I do need to test drive stuff.

For those that recomended it, with all due respect I cannot stand the miata. All I think of is Corky Romano. I am sure it is a wonderful car, but I do not like them at all.

I think the best advice is to test drive stuff. thanks

[RPS]

I know everyone might not feel this way but I see 'sports cars' as being light and simple and smallish. Everything from an M3 to a Miata to a 911 could be considered sports cars IMO.

So an M3 is significantly lighter, simpler, and smaller than a Mustang? :rolleyes:

Your comment made me smile. Anyway, as I recall reading, the last time they tested an M3 against a Mustang GT there wasn't much difference in measurable performance on the track. Cost was, of course, quite different. The Mustang isn't as refined, but offers better bang-for-the-buck than an M3 and more performance than most drivers will ever need or know how to use. Granted, they are very different cars at different prices.

[Idris Icabod]

I had an Infiniti G35 coupe a few years ago that I liked very much, it is pretty much a fancy Nissan 350Z but has a tiny back seat. I think they are around 300 hp and the Nissan is south of 30K, the Infiniti was nearer 40K I think.

[palincss]

It is more money (and no longer made new) but the S2000 is the Miata to the next level. Simple, good mileage, great handling, and yet faster than you really ever need it to be. With a redline at 9000 and six forward gears, it is sooooo much fun to drive.


But perhaps not so nice as a daily driver. It might redline at 9K, but if I recall the reviews correctly, you had to run it at 6K or over at all times, otherwise it had no pickup. And, it was said to be harsh riding, cramped and "frenetically noisy."

I woman I knew at work once bought one, mainly for the looks, I think. She drove it home in typical Washington DC area rush hour traffic, turned around and brought it right back to the dealer.

[David Kirk]

So an M3 is significantly lighter, simpler, and smaller than a Mustang? :rolleyes:

Your comment made me smile. Anyway, as I recall reading, the last time they tested an M3 against a Mustang GT there wasn't much difference in measurable performance on the track. Cost was, of course, quite different. The Mustang isn't as refined, but offers better bang-for-the-buck than an M3 and more performance than most drivers will ever need or know how to use. Granted, they are very different cars at different prices.

I haven't taken a tape rule to the two of them but I've driven both and the M3 drives MUCH smaller and is easier to place than the Mustang. And when you part the two side by side the Mustang towers over an M3. I wonder what the weight difference is? It sure feels like a lot but that can be deceiving.

You are right - they are much different cars. One is a blunt object and the other a more precise tool. At least that's what they feel like to me being driven at 9/10ths.

dave

[AngryScientist]

choices choices.

first off - are you a campy man? if so, throw out all the Japanese and American cars, you want german, german, german.

think audi, bmw, porscha.

look certified pre owned, better warranty then new, and more affordable than you thought. forget 0-60 numbers, go for a real performance machine.

any late model BMW coupe will fit the bill IMO, 50/50 weight distribution, reliable inline 6 engine, solid transmission, what more can you need?

remember, ford is a four letter word that starts with F, like fire and...f....

[AngryScientist]

I haven't taken a tape rule to the two of them but I've driven both and the M3 drives MUCH smaller and is easier to place than the Mustang. And when you part the two side by side the Mustang towers over an M3. I wonder what the weight difference is? It sure feels like a lot but that can be deceiving.

You are right - they are much different cars. One is a blunt object and the other a more precise tool. At least that's what they feel like to me being driven at 9/10ths.

dave

the man knows his stuff. scalpel vs. sledge hammer IMO.

[Jeff N.]

If you wanna REALLY have some fun, and don't want to break the bank, find a late model ACURA NSX. Driving one is a gas...the most fun you can have and still have your clothes on. They're extremely well-engineered. I got to drive one that belonged to a friend. Sweet indeed. Jeff N.

[Gummee]

Cheap thrills? GTI or Mazdaspeed3 Quick enough to be fun without jeopardizing your license with huge hp

As an added bonus, you can pick up used GTIs for 'cheap.' I like not having a car payment... More $$ for bike toys (or upgrades/repairs to an older car)

I've had a 3-series BMW. They're sneaky fast and very fun to drive, but you do end up going supra-legal speeds before you're aware that you're doing it. I was in SoCal and had to set the cruise or I'd end up at 100mph pretty much any time the tach went over 4k.

Speaking of 4k that BMW engine is happiest when its spinning more'n 4k. The more you rev it, the happier it gets. DAMH I avoided tickets 'cause it certainly wasn't because of a slow car!

HTH

M

[flydhest]

But perhaps not so nice as a daily driver. It might redline at 9K, but if I recall the reviews correctly, you had to run it at 6K or over at all times, otherwise it had no pickup. And, it was said to be harsh riding, cramped and "frenetically noisy."

I woman I knew at work once bought one, mainly for the looks, I think. She drove it home in typical Washington DC area rush hour traffic, turned around and brought it right back to the dealer.

I don't mind commuting in it and I live on U Street and work at 20th and C. Of course, I don't drive to work often as I usually bike. That said, I am so much happier commuting in it than in our station wagon, a VW Jetta TDi Sportwagon. Now, I love the VW and it is great for its intended purpose, but I notice how much I hate driving in rush hour traffic in that, while I don't when I am in the S2000.

As for performance, while it is fun at 6K rpms and higher, that is not required. I have driven the Miatas and they are great fun, but the S2000 is just a lot faster.

For reference though, and this thread was on "sports cars" to which my interpretation is forever colored by the fact that my father has a 1970 Spitfire that he has owned since before I could walk. He was the second owner. If that car was modern . . . but a lot faster, it would be the S2000.

Thinking of Dave Kirk's characterization of fun sports cars, "harsh riding" is, perhaps, in the eye of the beholder. The s2000 is definitely tightly sprung and very low to the ground so you will feel potholes and rough pavement, without doubt.

We should go for a ride together and then you can jump in and take the car for a spin. It is a hoot.

[rugbysecondrow]

Stop watching Top Gear...it will cost you a bunch of money. ;)

[PaulE]

The M3 was a bad example to pick, because BMW offers zero maintenance warranties on all their new cars. That means free tires, free brake pads, free wipers, free wiper fluid, free oil changes, etc.

But I get what you're driving at... ;)

A friend's wife just got clipped by a BMW dealer for $500 for a new run-flat tire for her 2011 BMW 550 with 6,000 miles. Tire was ruined due to a road hazard.

[Seramount]

sounds like a pleasant dilemma...what cool car to buy.

shopping for a new ride is the fun part...test drive your brains out. you're going to find a world of difference in some of the cars suggested. figure out if you simply want horsepower, or the whole package of hp, handling, braking...

my coworker has a Shelby Mustang GT. I find it large, heavy, and fairly underpowered. the interior is awful, cheap plastic abounds. I come from a muscle car background, so for my tastes, it's a yawn producer as a hi-perf car.

I recently tested an Audi TT for a female friend who was in the market for a new car...while I liked the styling, driving the little turbo version was tedious. it was all-or-nothing from the engine. got old quickly.

some Corvettes, like the Z06, are formidable. lesser versions span the spectrum of performance. some are pretty pedestrian and tame, but they're almost all capable of giving one the image of 'sporty.'

the Honda S2000 is a good choice for the reasons already stated. too bad it's discontinued...the rec for an Acura NSX is a good one. not a lot of them on the used car market tho.

I drive an Acura RSX Type-S, which is considered a sport coupe, not a true sports car. it's not a beast, but the VTEC revs to 8200 rpm, gets 30+ mpg, and handles pretty nicely...and with the hatchback, I can throw my bike in it. try that with most sports cars.

so, put some thought into what you want from your new wheels...blinding, race-track performance or just something that puts a small smile on your face when you press the accelerator or take a tight curve with confidence.

[RPS]

For those that recomended it, with all due respect I cannot stand the miata. All I think of is Corky Romano. I am sure it is a wonderful car, but I do not like them at all.

If you think the Miata is a little too girly but want a traditional sports car with 2-seats, RWD, and convertible top you may also want to look at a BMW Z4, or if looking at lower-cost used models an older Z3. I think new base models are less expensive than an M3 and may depreciate even faster due to limited market as used vehicles.

[Nooch]

Great, practical cars with sporty performance but not what I call a sports car per se. I think they fall in the GT territory if they are in stock OEM form. However, they can turn into a WRC replica quite easily with tons of aftermarket parts readily available for them.

I had a choice to buy one of them in 2005 but decided on the older, 'your grandpa's' Subaru, the boring looking, Legacy GT manual instead. Bought it used with 1,500 miles for $18k. I wanted a sporty GT, but not the harsh ride and impracticality of a sports car, like the Lotus Elise or even the ZR1 (I have driven them). After driving it stock for about a year, I got hooked on its tight chassis and performance but didn't want to pay for sports car insurance prices if I bought a 'true' sports car. I decided to hop up the power and handling of my Legacy to see if it would satisfy my needs.
Long story short, the stock Legacy has 250bhp/250torque. It was fun but boringly slow once you are accustomed to it.
Now it has well over 500bhp/500torque with a upgraded suspension/brake setup perfectly matched with it. It also has a new 6 speed trans to handle the power. It's my daily driver and have been very happy with my four door 'sports car.'
The cost of ownership of a Subaru is low IMHO and they are extremely reliable.
Best of luck on your search for your sports car!

Nothing to contribute except God, do I want one of these, but a wagon. Nothing gets a ricer more upset than when they got owned by a guy in a wagon...

[rice rocket]

If you think the Miata is a little too girly but want a traditional sports car with 2-seats, RWD, and convertible top you may also want to look at a BMW Z4, or if looking at lower-cost used models an older Z3. I think new base models are less expensive than an M3 and may depreciate even faster due to limited market as used vehicles.

Oh, reminds me....someone posted a thread about leasing a European delivery Z4 sDrive3.5is for $241, 2 year lease, no money down. The reason it's so cheap is the residual is 77% after two years. Might be worth looking at, there's a thread about it on thecarlounge.com.

[RPS]

I haven't taken a tape rule to the two of them but I've driven both and the M3 drives MUCH smaller and is easier to place than the Mustang. And when you part the two side by side the Mustang towers over an M3. I wonder what the weight difference is? It sure feels like a lot but that can be deceiving.

You are right - they are much different cars. One is a blunt object and the other a more precise tool. At least that's what they feel like to me being driven at 9/10ths.

dave
My point was only that being in the same size class I didn't see size itself being that different. Also your mention of complexity caught my eye since pony cars were known most of all for being simple yet powerful "blunt" cars.

Anyway, regarding size: I looked them up and the BMW is a little shorter and a little narrower, but is heavier than the Mustang GT even when equipped with V-8 and auto. The Mustang is taller than the M3 coupe but lower than the M3 sedan. On a US highway I doubt the size difference itself makes much of a difference to the average owner.

For what it's worth, I'm not suggesting a Mustang since I wouldn't buy any new Ford unless I had no other viable choice.

[StanleySteamer]

I have a 2004 (e46) BMW 330 with the zhp package. It has the sport suspension, a quicker steering rack than the M3 and no gov. limiter on the top speed (155 mph). You can buy the ZHP package in a conv., 2 door coupe and 4 door sedan. BMW built the ZHP 330 from 2002 to 2005. The current BMW 3 series no longer have a dipstick or a full sized spare. The twin turbo on the newer BMWs is also problematic.

[slowgoing]

BMW also doesn't cover the battery if you drive less than about 10k miles a year. I don't know the exact number, but I didn't qualify (on our second car).

I'm seriously considering a diesel fueled 335d. Only comes in a 4 door and with auto transmission, but can't beat the low end torque for fun and the 36 mpg freeway.

[slowgoing]

I have a 2004 (e46) BMW 330 with the zhp package. It has the sport suspension, a quicker steering rack than the M3 and no gov. limiter on the top speed (155 mph). You can buy the ZHP package in a conv., 2 door coupe and 4 door sedan. BMW built the ZHP 330 from 2002 to 2005. The current BMW 3 series no longer have a dipstick or a full sized spare. The twin turbo on the newer BMWs is also problematic.

The 2 door ZHP, including the convertible, was built through 2006.

[RPS]

Oh, reminds me....someone posted a thread about leasing a European delivery Z4 sDrive3.5is for $241, 2 year lease, no money down. The reason it's so cheap is the residual is 77% after two years. Might be worth looking at, there's a thread about it on thecarlounge.com.
That’s good to know – I wouldn’t have expected it. I almost bought a used Z3 years ago when my son worked part time at CarMax and could buy cars headed for wholesale at cost plus minimal fee. Fortunately I came to my senses and bought a safer car for Houston traffic. The Z3 and now Z4 remind me of the last sports car I lusted for, an Austin Healy 3000. That was a true sports car.

[godfrey1112000]

It can come with the famous push button transmission, by law all must have blue smoke coming from them as they cruise down the road, no seat belts of course

[CaptStash]

Lots opf options, but after reading the whole thread it seems like you haven't yet really defined what exactly you mean by "Sports Car" v. "Fast Car". For me, the term sports car denotes a two seater, and prefereably one with only two seats.

For pure performance, there are a lot of options, and as others have said, it sort of depends on what floats your boat. My first two cars were German built 2+2 Fords. Both were silly fast for their time and way fun enough to get me into too much trouble. Since then I drive trucks. My wife started with roadsters as a kid (thanks Dad!) and moved on to SUV's as a family car. she's come full circle and now drives a Porsche Cayenne. From a pure performance standpoint, the Cayenne is a "Sports car" based on handling (skid pad and slalom numbers), accelaration and top speed, but it's still hard to call a 4 wheel drive SUV a sports car.

So all of this blather is basically to say that after you narrow down what will be fun for you, then you can start narrowing down the type of car you want.

Saul aka CaptStash....

PS: I say get a Lotus Elise like DK. They're cheap (relatively), fast and I believe have relatively simple Rover engines.

[palincss]

Nothing to contribute except God, do I want one of these, but a wagon. Nothing gets a ricer more upset than when they got owned by a guy in a wagon...

And you can carry bicycles inside the wagon, which puts them head and shoulders above all the other cars we've been discussing in the one area that really matters to a cyclist.

[Ken Robb]

I have a 2004 (e46) BMW 330 with the zhp package. It has the sport suspension, a quicker steering rack than the M3 and no gov. limiter on the top speed (155 mph). You can buy the ZHP package in a conv., 2 door coupe and 4 door sedan. BMW built the ZHP 330 from 2002 to 2005. The current BMW 3 series no longer have a dipstick or a full sized spare. The twin turbo on the newer BMWs is also problematic.

My 2004 330i ZHP came w/stiffer suspension than "sport suspension", 6 spd vs. 5 spd., different exhaust, cams, ecu, M-Sport wheels and a 149mph speed limiter.

You can sometimes find them for sale in the classifieds of BMWCCA.org.

[rice rocket]

And you can carry bicycles inside the wagon, which puts them head and shoulders above all the other cars we've been discussing in the one area that really matters to a cyclist.

All these Subarus and FWD/AWD "sports cars" are fine cars for sure, but it's a perversion of what a sports car should be. A big motor doesn't make a sports car, it's the whole package. Do you race on a Rivendell? Even if you put sticky lightweight tubular tires on it, it's not going to give you the full experience.

If you're gonna do it, do it right. RWD, 2 seater, proper weight distribution (no more front biased than 55/45). Just my opinion.

[benb]

Cars are for fetching groceries and carrying bicycles to the races! :D

If you don't want to pedal you can at least still ride in style..

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_T0wCg_POVxA/TMREZRmFZeI/AAAAAAAAA3g/JSSM69LhY4s/s1600/Ducati%2BMonster%2B(3).jpg

http://www.bmwcoop.com/wp-content/images/2009/12/bmw-s-1000-rr-1.jpg

Neither of the above appropriate for a beginner BTW!

Not much of a fan of most of the overweight "sports" cars which are way too full of luxury features and creature comforts..

[BCS]

Save your pennies until you can buy a used 911. Trust me on this one.

[19wisconsin64]

There are endless choices....but I like your M3 idea. My advice, wait until the new 3 series comes out, and get the 335i with the new body style...maybe due in a few months or next year.

I drive a 335i, and it's faster than the previous M3 version, 0-60 in 4.9, and is the best handling car I've owned in real-world driving on US roads. As a "car guy" I've been lucky enough to have had some amazing cars...porsches, corvettes, lots of great ones. The 335 is so fast, so comfortable, and handles so well, you will be smiling all the time.

Be patient, as many of the top designed are getting new body styles for 2012, and the improvements are worth the wait if you are buying a new car.

Got my car with very low miles for $30K, and have been very, very happy. Of course, if I had deeper pockets, the M3 is better!

For 2005 and later the 911 is an amazing, amazing car, and will give you the total sports car experience. Later versions have the PDK transmission, which makes the car better in all ways....faster, better fuel economy, quicker shift times...and more like a race car!

The 911, like the 3 Series, will be getting new body styles also very shortly. Nothing wrong with getting a good condition used recent car for short money.

Good luck in your search!!

[rice rocket]

You buy any HPFPs yet? ;)

[Climb01742]

everyone who loves to drive should own a 911 at least once in their lives. i'd personally choose a 930. it may kill you as the back end breaks loose, but lordy, what a last few seconds on earth. :D if you want something a bit tamer, find an '87 911, the pinnacle of the small bodied 911s, the purest ones, IMO. i've owned 911s and M3s. an M3 is a wonderful car but a late 80s 911 without power steering is a whole other thing. rotate the tach until the redline is at 12 o'clock and never wipe the grin off your face.

[RPS]

All these Subarus and FWD/AWD "sports cars" are fine cars for sure, but it's a perversion of what a sports car should be. A big motor doesn't make a sports car, it's the whole package. Do you race on a Rivendell? Even if you put sticky lightweight tubular tires on it, it's not going to give you the full experience.

If you're gonna do it, do it right. RWD, 2 seater, proper weight distribution (no more front biased than 55/45). Just my opinion.
I wouldn’t write off Subaru completely just yet because of the upcoming +/- 2012 sports coupe they are developing in conjunction with Toyota which may turn out to be an interesting 2+2 offer. The Toyota version is presently called FT-86 and is much smaller and lighter than a Mustang or BMW 3-series. The engine will be a small 2-liter boxer four made by Subaru which will enable a very low hood given its front-engine rear-wheel-drive layout.

It will definitely not be “powerful” by any means but its specifications suggest it may turn out to be a great fuel-efficient little sports car with a tiny rear seat for those few occasions when two isn’t enough.

Lots of pictures of the Toyota are floating around the internet but I haven’t seen any of the Subaru version yet. Reports suggest only the front will look a little different. On paper I like it a lot and look forward to seeing it in person.

[witcombusa]

All this talk of 3 series Bimmers.....sorry these are GT's. Grand touring cars with heaping quantities of luxury features (and pounds!) Great cars, good fun, mostly practical and some very fast. But not sports cars.

"Sports car" in the traditional sense are of course, 2 seaters with drop tops and rear wheel drive and manual gearboxs. Less is more.

"Simplicate, then add lightness." Colin Chapman

[David Kirk]

.......................
PS: I say get a Lotus Elise like DK. They're cheap (relatively), fast and I believe have relatively simple Rover engines.

The engines are Toyotas actually. 1.8L with variable cam timing. Toyota engine and trans and Lotus weight (1850 lbs) and handling. Damn they are fun and easy to drive.

Dave

[slowgoing]

You buy any HPFPs yet? ;)

BMW has warrantied the high pressure fuel pumps on the 335s for 10 years.

Don't ask me how I know this. :)

[Louis]

It can come with the famous push button transmission, by law all must have blue smoke coming from them as they cruise down the road, no seat belts of course

My father used to have an old Valiant with the push-button tranny (and push-buttons to control the heat also). Slant-6 and the "spare in the trunk lid" thing.

[sg8357]

Save your pennies until you can buy a used 911. Trust me on this one.

Having driven a Miata and a 911t, they're really really different.
A 911T is like the Millennium Falcon, great fun at high speed and
high g. The Miata is more like an amusement park ride, great fun
even at 35mph.

The Miata really is the best British roadster ever made.

[rice rocket]

I haven't been in an Elise recently, only the Series 1 that wasn't available in the US. The impression took away from that was it felt more like a kit car than a production car. While I can appreciate the virtues of ultra low weight, I would like to see a little more creature comforts in a 50k car...

Also, I guess the other thing that bothered me was the Elise was originally 20k, and the price almost tripled once it was exported here.

[saab2000]

Just bought a 21 year old Mazda Miata. So far, so good. Has the 1" trailer attachment for the bike too.

[Gummee]

Cars are for fetching groceries and carrying bicycles to the races! :D

If you don't want to pedal you can at least still ride in style..

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_T0wCg_POVxA/TMREZRmFZeI/AAAAAAAAA3g/JSSM69LhY4s/s1600/Ducati%2BMonster%2B(3).jpg

http://www.bmwcoop.com/wp-content/images/2009/12/bmw-s-1000-rr-1.jpg

Neither of the above appropriate for a beginner BTW!

Not much of a fan of most of the overweight "sports" cars which are way too full of luxury features and creature comforts..I'll second the motion of 'get a bike.' Its like riding a bike, but you can go faster and farther.

Makes driving a sports car less appealing cause you can do so much more with so much less.

If you get something like a BMW GS, you'll find yourself semi-invisible to cops too! If you're on a sportbike, expect hassles.

I lost my GS-Adv in the divorce. I'm shopping... Next up: Triumph Sprint, Aprilia Futura, another GS, or possibly a Ducati Multistrada. Regardless, it won't be over $5-6k purchase price.

HTH

M

[dnades]

Well, it looks like you've got some choices. Quite the thread. Older cars I like the Triumph TR6 and the Alfa Romeo 2000 GTV (early 70's late 60's) the later GTV 6 is supposed to be a very fun car also...

[Louis]

Makes driving a sports car less appealing cause you can do so much more with so much less.

If you get something like a BMW GS, you'll find yourself semi-invisible to cops too! If you're on a sportbike, expect hassles.

I lost my GS-Adv in the divorce. I'm shopping... Next up: Triumph Sprint, Aprilia Futura, another GS, or possibly a Ducati Multistrada. Regardless, it won't be over $5-6k purchase price.

I've thought about this for ages. But even now, though I'm almost an "old guy" (not quite 50 yet) I don't think I could trust myself on a crotch-rocket. It's just too easy to just twist that right hand and go nuts. With all the curvy, hilly roads around here, I'd be dead (or seriously injured) before the summer's done. Either due to some gravel in a corner or some stupid risk I took.

I'll settle for the bikes I have to pedal myself. Not quite the same zoom, but a greater degree of satisfaction after a tough, but fun ride.

[Louis]

the Alfa Romeo 2000 GTV (early 70's late 60's)

Probably my all time favorite, but definitely not a daily-driver car. This would be my #1 choice as a fun car to have.

(Some images lifted from the web.)

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_FoXyvaPSnVk/SMlL9MZDENI/AAAAAAAA47A/IrW9gRMFr-A/s1600/Alfa-GTV-V8-11.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_FoXyvaPSnVk/SMlL9z-_vkI/AAAAAAAA47g/KM1e7qw9mQ4/s1600/Alfa-GTV-V8-15.jpg

[SoCalSteve]

Save your pennies until you can buy a used 911. Trust me on this one.

For a sports car that's a daily driver, truer words have never been spoken.

75% of all Porsche 911's ever produced are still on the road today. That speaks volumes to their reliability.

As for the fun quotient, drive them all and then drive a 911 last. You will never even think of driving another vehicle, they are that tight, fast and fun. Nothing compares as a daily driver. Lamborghini, Ferarri, etc are all " truer sports cars" but, they are no way in hell daily drivers. A 911 is.

Have fun with it, but unless you plan on buying a 911, don't drive one. Nothing even comes close in comparison.

Oh, btw, we have a friend who is 5' 6" and she fits in the back seat just fine. Actually, she would rather go out for a meal with us in the 911 than our SUV's.

Good luck!

[avalonracing]

911s are interesting cars. I've always liked the looks of them but it wasn't until one of my friends bought a stock 911 (993 vintage) and started racing it that I started to really appreciate them. He beat the HELL out of that car wringing out that engine to no end. They truly are racing cars that have been made for the street.

Of course 99% of them are driven by dudes who get them to impress their buddies and chicks and that think that going 20 mph over the speed limit makes them a world class driver.

That said, after spending some time driving a couple of 911s I found that they just aren't the car for me. The driving dynamics are great but it is something about the feel that isn't right. Maybe it's the small windshield, maybe the metallic engine noise that everyone loves but it just isn't right for me.

My favorites for a daily driver: MB C55, BMW M3 or the S2000

[rounder]

If I could buy one sports car and feel like i would never look back, it would be for a Porsche 911. To me, they define sports car. I would not care what kind of radio it had, whether the seats were electric with memory, gps, etc. I would just like to be able to drive one for awhile.

[SoCalSteve]

If I could buy one sports car and feel like i would never look back, it would be for a Porsche 911. To me, they define sports car. I would not care what kind of radio it had, whether the seats were electric with memory, gps, etc. I would just like to be able to drive one for awhile.

Many tines I'll just drive with the radio off in my 911. I love the sound of the engine, especially when it gets past 4k rpm...but then I get scared that I'll get a ticket!

[SEABREEZE]

My father used to have an old Valiant with the push-button tranny (and push-buttons to control the heat also). Slant-6 and the "spare in the trunk lid" thing.


My first car was a Rambler with the push buttons as well.

[Fixed]

i have a mx-5 it is a fun dependable car. getting a new top this week
cheers

[Hawker]

Really love my '95 Miata. It is my second and even stock it out-handles most anything on the road. With sticky tires, some Koni shocks and upgraded sway bars....it ain't fast but its handling is waaay impressive and fast enough for anything real twisty like we have in north GA.

Also, they are bulletproof, run forever and price wise...a great value.

[staggerwing]

The problem with many great sports cars is simple; if you aren't living in the sticks, or playing on the track, then driving one at 9/10's+ is going to cause you no end of hurt.

That is part of the fun of something inches off of the ground, light, flickable, and relatively low horsepower, like Miatas, S2000's, MR2's, various Lotus's, earlier 911's and similar. You can flog 'em pretty good, and still keep your license.

It hasn't been mentioned yet, but your are getting a manual tranny, in whatever catches your fancy, right? Think of it as a fun multiplier. :D

[fuzzalow]

Along the same sentiments as staggerwing posted, any sportscar that will be driven only on the street and not on the track will be unsatisfying to drive as well as potentially endanger your license. Most municipalities are looking for any revenue they can find, stepping up speeding enforcement is one way to do that.

That said, the only car marques I know that regularly schedule track time would be the BMW or the Porsche clubs. A Boxster is great fun, and Porsches are imho practical for daily use and bomb-proof on the track. Well, unless you fall off then that's your fault.

If you are only going to use a sportscar on the street, then get a lower performance sportscar - much more fun to drive a lower absolute capability car closer to its limit than a high performance envelope car so slowly that it is miles away from what it is capable of doing. But doing this on the street is a bad idea. A bad idea. Don't do it.

Find a way to run your sportscar on the track.

[velosport]

I've had a 08 Miata MX-5 and 09 Cooper S both were a lot fun but I didn't like the looks of the japanese car and the Mini front wheel drive prevents it from handling the way I wanted.
Now have a 08 BMW Z4 and love it. Fast without being too fast, superb handling and the inline six is buttery smooth. The long hood looks proper. You have to dump the run flat tires to get a normal ride. Commutes great.

[velosport]

Some say they're ugly.

[dd74]

This is all you need to know about sports cars:

“Thank god there’s no 48-hour race anywhere in the world, because chances are nobody could beat Porsche in a 48 hour race. They’re probably the only cars in the world that would stand up for something like that.” – Carroll Shelby, 1972.

Porsche are built for racing, and have the success to back that up.

If a car has success on the track, that success invariably translates to the street, which is very important to consider in a sports car.

[velosport]

Do a search on Porsche IMS issues and then you may change your tune. It kept me away and it's Porsche's dirty little secret.

[Ti Designs]

It's not about the car - well, it's not ALL about the car...

I'm always amused at these threads about bikes or cars and how people take the rider/driver out of it. Back in my car racing days a friend of mine was racing showroom stock in a Neon, he walked over to the next pit over where there was another Neon and asked "hey, whacha got under there?". They just looked annoyed - showroom stock is a driver's competition, the cars are all the same. At one event they even pulled the ECUs to make sure nobody was rechiping.

Before you talk about the car, you have to talk about the driver. Anyone with the money (or credit) can buy a car with way too much horsepower, and don't expect the salesman to talk them out of it (I once talked a guy out of buying a Cervelo P3 - I'll never make that mistake again...). Like cycling, few understand what it means to be a good driver. You learn to drive some time in your teens, and then what else is there? Much like cycling, there really are skills and techniques. I spent a whole afternoon (and a set of brake pads) on threshold braking once. Any really good autocross driver will spend time working on their skills.

I have two cars, Both are Honda CRXes, one is a single seater autocross car with a roll cage, 5-way harness, turbo + nitrous motor with side exhaust which blows flames off throttle. Much like my Serotta is to my legs/lungs, my little CRX is more car than I need, but it's nice knowing there's more speed in working on the driver...

[rice rocket]

Much like my Serotta is to my legs/lungs, my little CRX is more car than I need, but it's nice knowing there's more speed in working on the driver...

I agree to some point, except:

1.There isn't some one dimensional measurement of a car that defines whether a car is "enough".
2. Speed isn't everything.
3. There's only so far you can get polishing a turd. :butt:

[jr59]

[QUOTE

Dave

P.S. if you really want to up the grin factor once you have a car take a performance driving class with it and learn to use it the way it was designed to be used. Holy crap it's fun.
[/QUOTE]


Yep, Dave is right on it here.

My vote would go to the 911, or the Miata. Both light, fun, and will hold up for the long haul.

P.S. Dave, get rid of all that FI junk and get some side drafts. :p

[RPS]

Porsche are built for racing, and have the success to back that up.

If a car has success on the track, that success invariably translates to the street, which is very important to consider in a sports car.
Valid point but to what end?

Last weekend I attended my high school class reunion which reminded me that as immature kids we spent way too much time street racing. Trust me; it’s not something I’m proud of. In retrospect it was freaking stupid, irresponsible, and incredibly selfish. As far as I know I personally didn’t cause any bodily harm to anyone (mental anguish a different matter altogether) but sadly too many young guys in our small town ended up dead and/or killing innocent people.

At 16 a street-legal 500 HP race car would have seemed like a godsend; however, today my perspectives, values, common sense, and respect for others is a little more evolved. I hope so anyway.

Discussing the virtues of driving these types of cars on streets is difficult without introducing much personal bias. Some will argue that they can even make ordinary driving safer because of their higher capabilities, while others will argue that the higher capabilities will simply tempt most drivers into recklessness. I think there is truth in both.

[djg]

My 1998 M3 with really good snow tires was very good in snow as long as it didn't get so deep the wheels came off the ground.
New first rate snow tires are amazing.

Really? What tires do you like? In truth, I might not get them in any case -- we don't have that many days a year when it's a problem down here and I kept the '04 Volvo S60AWD around for various reasons (taking the kids skiing, carpooling to races, etc. -- plus my eldest daughter will be learning to drive before long). Still, I'm curious to know.

[RPS]

Some say they're ugly.
I kind of like it – IMO a reworked modern version of the Austin Healey 3000 (picture of one off the web below for reference). I’d like the Z4 better if it wasn’t quite so edgy, but it’s not that bad.

It’s interesting to note BMW apparently tried to buy the Austin Healey brand prior to coming out with the Z3, but as I recall the family didn’t want to sell the name. The original BMW renderings preceding the Z3 were closely based on the Austin Healey and were stunning. Styling was much closer to the Healey just like the modern Mini is to the original. I wish they could have worked out their differences. A modern BMW Healey would have been a car I'd buy.

[djg]

Good stuff.

I love the thought of a M3, but the prices for even used ones seem really high...more then likely worth it.

I ws thinking about the American choices simply do to availability of parts and the potential repair costs. I do need to test drive stuff.

For those that recomended it, with all due respect I cannot stand the miata. All I think of is Corky Romano. I am sure it is a wonderful car, but I do not like them at all.

I think the best advice is to test drive stuff. thanks

Pres . . . "worth it" is in the eye of the beholder and there's no reason to feel bad about your budget, whatever it is. Apart from sticker, an M3 is superior to any current Mustang Ford has to offer -- superior in every way IMO, and certainly a vastly better handling car. But if you like muscle cars you might really like certain Mustangs, especially on value for money.

For price, I bought a 2006 M3 convertible a year ago. 30.5k miles, clean, one owner, records -- indeed from Carmax of all places -- for 32 grand. Had I wanted an earlier E46 with higher miles, but not crazy, I could have peeled 10 grand off the price easily enough. But yeah, all sorts of things are less expensive. Heck, I had an earlier 328is that was plenty of fun to drive -- you might like a 328 rag top.

Fly mentions the S2000 -- those really are nice roadsters, definitely a step up from a Miata (nothing wrong with that at all, and used Miatas can be cheap) for sure. Not sure about pricing on clean used ones but you might find it a good value. Nobody is mentioning the boxster -- and the non-S version doesn't have a ton of power -- but that's a great little roadster too and you can find older ones that don't have a lot of miles that just are not a ton of money at all. If you have twisty country roads nearby, could be a lot of fun.

[C5 Snowboarder]

I have owned red Corvettes since 94, this one is my favorite.. the C5 made from 1997 to 2004. I like the newer C6 but not as much as the C5. So it is still in my stable - only driven in sunshine. The Mercedes is 32 years old...and still drives wonderful as it did when I bought it 25 years ago. Yea.. kinda like sports cars.

[malcolm]

Not much to add. I gave up sports cars several years ago for station wagons, but the wife has remained a fanatic. She has driven porsche 911s mostly for over twenty years with a year or so break for a lotus elise and a short lived jag. The lotus was a great car light and fast but build quality excepting the drive train was suspect. It was her daily driver for about a year and a half and she went back to porsche and while she liked the lotus I don't think she would own another as an only car, difficult to get in and out and just not as usable a daily car. For what it is worth all her porsches have been bullet proof including a couple turbos.

[Ken Robb]

Really? What tires do you like? In truth, I might not get them in any case -- we don't have that many days a year when it's a problem down here and I kept the '04 Volvo S60AWD around for various reasons (taking the kids skiing, carpooling to races, etc. -- plus my eldest daughter will be learning to drive before long). Still, I'm curious to know.

They were top of the line Pirelli snows and MUCH narrower than the stock summer tires so they would really bite into the snow.

Combined with the limited slip differential and traction control it was really good in snow.

OTOH, I had the M3 on summer tires in Yosemite in May when we got a couple of inches of snow and I could not move at all until it melted.

Do not think that mud/snow rated tires even come close to real snow tires when the white stuff falls. Do not believe that 4 wheel drive with mud/snow tires is as good as 2 wd with real snows. They might be close (I doubt it) in acceleration but the car with snows will stop and turn much better.

[SoCalSteve]

Do a search on Porsche IMS issues and then you may change your tune. It kept me away and it's Porsche's dirty little secret.

That only happened to the 996. It was completely fixed when the 997.1 came out and also the 997.2. Don't buy a Porsche that was built between 1998 and 2004 and you'll be fine. Anything before and after had no ims or rms issues.

And, many if not all of the vehicles that did have these issues were fixed and now they are fine. Also, it didn't happen to many.

Wouldn't keep me away from buying the best daily driving sports car ever made.

Oh, one more thing. If you can find one that has a full l leather interior, jump all over it. It's a very expensive option and it truly transforms the interior of the 911, both visually and how sweet the smell of German leather is.

[Ken Robb]

If one defines a sports car by what it has vs. what it doesn't have a pretty good case can be made for a MINI Cooper S. It has pretty good acceleration, top speed over 135mph, crisp steering, decent brakes, good seats--plus lots of room for luggage and two passengers or acceptable room for four adults to go to dinner, etc. with little luggage. My 2007 has averaged 32mpg since new, the A/C works great, power windows, cruise, etc.

I know some folks think a car with all those amenities isn't a "real" sports car but I chose it over Miatas, Corvettes, and other sports cars in the same price range. Yes, I was considering new and used. I still think I might own a Porsche some day but, like most of the others I mentioned, it has a pretty big footprint.
I was replacing my M3 with a shorter car so I could park 9 bicycles and a Ducati in front of a shorter car.

Drop tops don't interest me at all due to a few bouts of surgery for skin cancer. It's interesting to me to note that the handling of most new sedans has gotten so good that the gulf between them and sports cars isn't nearly as wide as it used to be.

[Jeff N.]

Many tines I'll just drive with the radio off in my 911. I love the sound of the engine, especially when it gets past 4k rpm...but then I get scared that I'll get a ticket!
Steve, is there any particular year that is considered, in your opinion, the "best year" for the 911 when buying one used? Jeff N.

[witcombusa]

Do not think that mud/snow rated tires even come close to real snow tires when the white stuff falls. Do not believe that 4 wheel drive with mud/snow tires is as good as 2 wd with real snows. They might be close (I doubt it) in acceleration but the car with snows will stop and turn much better.

This is the absolute truth. I chase the snow all around New England each winter skiing and nothing compares to the top of the line snows. I run Bridgestone Blizzak's WS-60's on my WRX and it's almost as much fun getting there as it is skiing!

No-season tires are the worst of both worlds. Performance summers and properly sized narrow pure snows, each on their own rims. :D

[witcombusa]

If one defines a sports car by what it has vs. what it doesn't have a pretty good case can be made for a MINI Cooper S. It has pretty good acceleration, top speed over 135mph, crisp steering, decent brakes, good seats--plus lots of room for luggage and two passengers or acceptable room for four adults to go to dinner, etc. with little luggage. My 2007 has averaged 32mpg since new, the A/C works great, power windows, cruise, etc.

I know some folks think a car with all those amenities isn't a "real" sports car but I chose it over Miatas, Corvettes, and other sports cars in the same price range. Yes, I was considering new and used. I still think I might own a Porsche some day but, like most of the others I mentioned, it has a pretty big footprint.
I was replacing my M3 with a shorter car so I could park 9 bicycles and a Ducati in front of a shorter car.

Drop tops don't interest me at all due to a few bouts of surgery for skin cancer. It's interesting to me to note that the handling of most new sedans has gotten so good that the gulf between them and sports cars isn't nearly as wide as it used to be.


Don't get me wrong, I love the Cooper S. Had a 2003 and just traded it on an '11. It is an absolute blast to drive on a nice road. But either you and your front seat passenger are fairly short or your friends are little people.
I consider these two seaters with room for stuff in the back.

[SoCalSteve]

Steve, is there any particular year that is considered, in your opinion, the "best year" for the 911 when buying one used? Jeff N.

Yeah, 2006 and on. 1998 through 2005 weren't great years for the Porsche, both mechanical and style wise. You will have no problems with a 2006 onward or if you can find an older one with low mileage...before 1998.

Kind of like Serotta...ride one, you'll see. Same with the 911. Drive on, you'll see.

Enjoy!

PS: save a few $$$, I may consider selling my Ottrott soon ( to you). I'll let you know.

[Climb01742]

Steve, is there any particular year that is considered, in your opinion, the "best year" for the 911 when buying one used? Jeff N.

you didn't ask me, but... :D

"best" is hard to define. an '87 is the pinnacle of the small-body 911s, particularly because of the G50 transmission. of the post-1990 bigger body styles, the 993s are awfully sweet. it's very subjective, but IMO the 993 is the prettiest body (especially in the wide, flared rearend models) of recent 911s. if you can find a low-mileage '93-early '98, grab it. steve is quite right, avoid the late '98s to 2005. porsche had a massive brain freeze there for a few years. a key question to ask yourself is: what size 911 body feels/looks best to you? like their drivers, 911s have gotten portly as the years have gone by.

[Ken Robb]

Don't get me wrong, I love the Cooper S. Had a 2003 and just traded it on an '11. It is an absolute blast to drive on a nice road. But either you and your front seat passenger are fairly short or your friends are little people.
I consider these two seaters with room for stuff in the back.
I'm 6'1 and Leslie is 5'9--we've had a similar-sized couple in the back seat but, as I wrote, it's OK for a short drive to dinner or something else not too far. We in the front seat have to slide our seats well forward of our normal position to accommodate the riders in back. Our seats are manually adjustable up/down as well as forward/back so we can provide good foot room under them for the rear passengers. It's usually a 20 minute trip at most.

[Jeff N.]

you didn't ask me, but... :D

"best" is hard to define. an '87 is the pinnacle of the small-body 911s, particularly because of the G50 transmission. of the post-1990 bigger body styles, the 993s are awfully sweet. it's very subjective, but IMO the 993 is the prettiest body (especially in the wide, flared rearend models) of recent 911s. if you can find a low-mileage '93-early '98, grab it. steve is quite right, avoid the late '98s to 2005. porsche had a massive brain freeze there for a few years. a key question to ask yourself is: what size 911 body feels/looks best to you? like their drivers, 911s have gotten portly as the years have gone by.
Yes. I've heard from Porsche fans that '87 is one of the better years. VW fans always say, for example, '67 is the best for bugs: wider wheelbase, switch to 12 volt, guttier engine, etc.

[dd74]

To RPS:

The point that I am making about the 911 in that it is built for racing is that it is engineered to outlast its competition. And it does do that. This is why, as a sports car, they are very solid investments.

Best year Porsche:

The best years for the 911 can be delineated by knowing the worst years for the car, which are 1975-77, particularly California cars. Smog equipment on these cars tended to burn up the engines, particularly if the blocks were magnesium.

[Jeff N.]

Yeah, 2006 and on. 1998 through 2005 weren't great years for the Porsche, both mechanical and style wise. You will have no problems with a 2006 onward or if you can find an older one with low mileage...before 1998.

Kind of Serotta...ride on, you'll see. Same with the 911. Drive on, you'll see.

Enjoy!

PS: save a few $$$, I may consider selling my Ottrott soon ( to you). I'll let you know.
Ohmygawd...don't do this to me man! :D I'm just finishing up a Pegoretti project and SWORE to myself it'd be my last! Wait 'til the end of summer at least, OK? Jeff N.

[Walter]

These are the choices that a man should face!

I have been down the road of ownership of many of the cars talked about here. Let me toss my two cents into the discussion.

Older Porsches (911 or Carrera) are a dream. Incredibly fine handling cars that you can drive every day. Get ready for some stiff maint. bills.

A BMW M3 is much the same. Not quite as hard edged as a Porsche. Big repair bills as well.

A later model Corvette is an incredible car. Especially the Z06. Durable, relatively maint. free, and very quick and poised.

The Honda S2000 is like a shifter kart. Telepathic handling. Great ride. Like a motorcycle with two extra wheels! The only downsides are that it is more cramped than the others inside and a little buzzy. By that I mean it is very pipey and you really end up shifting a lot. Legendary and well earned Honda reputation for being maint. free and durable.

The Mustang is a great boulevard cruiser, but it ain't no sportscar.

As for a motorcycle.....I have been priviledged to race a number of different cars on both dirt and pavement. I have never had as much fun on a vehicle as I have when astride a motorcycle on a road course (or twisty street). Very cheap speed, no maint on a Japanese bike, and an incredible connection to the road. I have had a variety of bikes and would steer you to the Japanese 600's. Faster than mere mortals should travel and a hoot to ride hard.

Choices, choices...choices.....

[zap]

it's very subjective, but IMO the 993 is the prettiest body (especially in the wide, flared rearend models) of recent 911s.

Agreed. If I'm not mistaken, the 911 2S was made one year ('97?), 2wd with turbo rear end. There was the more common 4S ('96 & '97) but with 4 wheel drive.


porsche had a massive brain freeze there for a few years.

Toyota. Who was the bloke that brought in Toyota to consult on that 996/Boxster program.

[Pete Serotta]

and if his Ottrott is too big, give me a call.... :D Pete


S2000 is one I wish I had never sold but then I had to let it go when a 911 came visiting. :help:


Yeah, 2006 and on. 1998 through 2005 weren't great years for the Porsche, both mechanical and style wise. You will have no problems with a 2006 onward or if you can find an older one with low mileage...before 1998.

Kind of Serotta...ride on, you'll see. Same with the 911. Drive on, you'll see.

Enjoy!

PS: save a few $$$, I may consider selling my Ottrott soon ( to you). I'll let you know.

[Jeff N.]

My brother-in-law used to say that the happiest two days in a man's life is the day he buys a 'Vette and the day he sells it. Jeff N.

[C5 Snowboarder]

My brother-in-law used to say that the happiest two days in a man's life is the day he buys a 'Vette and the day he sells it. Jeff N.

That may be true with the 84-92 Vettes -- but anything newer than a 93 are awesome rides, darn near addicting.

[gasman]

Reading this thread makes me think of the comment Jay leno said on Top Gear-"Every man thinks he's above average when it comes to sex and driving.'

[Jeff N.]

That may be true with the 84-92 Vettes -- but anything newer than a 93 are awesome rides, darn near addicting.
Well, then, that stands to reason...his was an '85. Jeff N.

[snah]

and if his Ottrott is too big, give me a call.... :D Pete


S2000 is one I wish I had never sold but then I had to let it go when a 911 came visiting. :help:


I'll second that on the S2000, the sadest car related day of my life.

[RPS]

This article pitting a Honda minivan against a classic Jag and a classic Porsche clearly shows how vehicle capabilities have improved over time. What hasn’t changed is that sports cars are more about the driving and less about transportation.

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/soccer-moms-revenge/

[Louis]

What hasn’t changed is that sports cars are more about the driving and less about transportation.

IMO, it's a lot more than just the driving. A large part of it is how that car & brand make you feel about yourself and how others perceive you.

[RPS]

IMO, it's a lot more than just the driving. A large part of it is how that car & brand make you feel about yourself and how others perceive you.
You almost make it sound like sports car owners are shallow. :rolleyes:

[Louis]

You almost make it sound like sports car owners are shallow. :rolleyes:

I'm sure some are.

But we all buy things for a variety of reasons, not all directly related to their fundamental purpose.

[rphetteplace]

I think the op mentioned a Corvette or a Mustang. Of the two I'd take the 'vette 10 times to 1 over the Mustang. They aren't in the same category of car really. It's truly amazing the depreciation rate for Corvettes also. You can pick up something just a couple years old that is pretty special. There was an article a year or so back in one of the big car magazines regarding the amazing deals you can score on Corvettes. The owner of the local track drives a ZR1 and when that thing comes down the back stretch it screams "GET OUT OF MY WAY" pretty cool.

I drive an STI as a daily driver. When you blow the doors off a guy in a Mustang or Camaro and pull up to the next light and tell them "you just got your ass handed to you by a fat man in a station wagon with 2 golden retrievers in the back end" you get pretty some pretty good laughs.

[markie]

Nice article.

I thought this summed it up though:

"Actually, it wasn’t much of a contest. Getting the Odyssey around the course required much less work than driving either of the two “sports cars.” Between the anti-lock brakes, supportive seats and power steering, you could practically watch “The Lord of the Rings” on the DVD player while whipping around the cones just as fast as the paradigm of sports cars"

Sports cars are not necessarily about being quick, but about about feedback and involvement.

I think the OP would do well with an in-between car like a miata or Mini Cooper S (my personal daily driver) before getting something really expensive with a lot of power.

The Mini is a lot of fun to throw around regular roads.

[soulspinner]

you didn't ask me, but... :D

"best" is hard to define. an '87 is the pinnacle of the small-body 911s, particularly because of the G50 transmission. of the post-1990 bigger body styles, the 993s are awfully sweet. it's very subjective, but IMO the 993 is the prettiest body (especially in the wide, flared rearend models) of recent 911s. if you can find a low-mileage '93-early '98, grab it. steve is quite right, avoid the late '98s to 2005. porsche had a massive brain freeze there for a few years. a key question to ask yourself is: what size 911 body feels/looks best to you? like their drivers, 911s have gotten portly as the years have gone by.

As usual I agree with Climb, be careful if you track earlier Cayman/Boxster models as they did not have dry sump lubrication and bad things ensued....... there are a lot of mods for early 911s as well that can turn these cars into daily drivers with an attitude...

[dd74]

...there are a lot of mods for early 911s as well that can turn these cars into daily drivers with an attitude...
Yes, it can be done, but VERY expensive.

I know a mechanic who is modernizing a 1972 911: 3.2 Carrera engine, limited slip, modern suspension and brakes, a/c, electric windows, modern interior. He says he'll sell, ready to drive, for $50,000.

A 2006 Carrera S is about the same price, btw.

[vsefiream]

Just my .02, take a look at a Pontiac G8 GXP, BMW type vehicle at a decent price. Oh it also has 4 doors and more than 400hp! It's a really fun ride!

[rugbysecondrow]

I bet you are fun at dinner parties and social gatherings. Ridiculing those who just want to enjoy themselves. O Joy.




It's not about the car - well, it's not ALL about the car...

I'm always amused at these threads about bikes or cars and how people take the rider/driver out of it. Back in my car racing days a friend of mine was racing showroom stock in a Neon, he walked over to the next pit over where there was another Neon and asked "hey, whacha got under there?". They just looked annoyed - showroom stock is a driver's competition, the cars are all the same. At one event they even pulled the ECUs to make sure nobody was rechiping.

Before you talk about the car, you have to talk about the driver. Anyone with the money (or credit) can buy a car with way too much horsepower, and don't expect the salesman to talk them out of it (I once talked a guy out of buying a Cervelo P3 - I'll never make that mistake again...). Like cycling, few understand what it means to be a good driver. You learn to drive some time in your teens, and then what else is there? Much like cycling, there really are skills and techniques. I spent a whole afternoon (and a set of brake pads) on threshold braking once. Any really good autocross driver will spend time working on their skills.

I have two cars, Both are Honda CRXes, one is a single seater autocross car with a roll cage, 5-way harness, turbo + nitrous motor with side exhaust which blows flames off throttle. Much like my Serotta is to my legs/lungs, my little CRX is more car than I need, but it's nice knowing there's more speed in working on the driver...

[SoCalSteve]

Yes, it can be done, but VERY expensive.

I know a mechanic who is modernizing a 1972 911: 3.2 Carrera engine, limited slip, modern suspension and brakes, a/c, electric windows, modern interior. He says he'll sell, ready to drive, for $50,000.

A 2006 Carrera S is about the same price, btw.

I paid $54,000.00 for my 2007 C2 coupe with 16,000 miles, CPO and an MSRP of about $90,000.00 in 2010 ( 3 year lease return). My 911 is truly immaculate and you'd never know it from new.

[Hawker]

IMO, it's a lot more than just the driving. A large part of it is how that car & brand make you feel about yourself and how others perceive you.

+1 That's why they call it advertising. And it is a big reason why some guys refuse to drive a Miata..."it's a girly car". They don't know how much fun they are missing.

[Kirk007]

I'm with Ken Robb - check out a mini cooper S. (and note the car parked along Dave K's lotus). You can go crazy and modify all you want or keep it stock and either way have a blast as a daily driver commuter and sporting about on weekends. Yes the back seat is marginal; we've converted ours to a 2+2: 2 people and 2 springer spaniels in the back. But it goes in the snow, particularly with good tires; it is easy to park; a blast to drive. More fun than my old RX-7 (well that may not be true but I was younger and crazier then); definitely more fun than the BMW 530 it replaced.

I had a porsche back in the day and mostly it made me weep. Unless you are going to the track there are few places where you can legally have fun with that much car in the states. If I lived in Europe - different story. But for our roads and driving conditions, it was just a waste of talent (the car not me).

[FlashUNC]

+1 That's why they call it advertising. And it is a big reason why some guys refuse to drive a Miata..."it's a girly car". They don't know how much fun they are missing.

Girlfriend's Mazdaspeed Miata is plenty fast once the turbo kicks in around 3k RPM. Thing is a blast to drive.

[dd74]

Just another option which occurred to me today. Mazda RX8. I've never owned one, but if you believe the car magazines and have seen the RX8 in the GT racing series, it's one of the best kept secrets in performance cars. It's really a four-door race car, IMO.

[mcewen]

Lots of good input by the first two pages on this one.

[rice rocket]

Just another option which occurred to me today. Mazda RX8. I've never owned one, but if you believe the car magazines and have seen the RX8 in the GT racing series, it's one of the best kept secrets in performance cars. It's really a four-door race car, IMO.

RX8s get pretty horrible mileage though. Like 18 mpg AVERAGE. Trunk is made useless by the fact that the trunk opening is tiny (even though it is quite spacious). I'd recommend an S2000 over an RX8 anyday.

That coming from a rotary owner (mine has turbos though ;) ).

[dd74]

RX8s get pretty horrible mileage though. Like 18 mpg AVERAGE. Trunk is made useless by the fact that the trunk opening is tiny (even though it is quite spacious). I'd recommend an S2000 over an RX8 anyday.

That coming from a rotary owner (mine has turbos though ;) ).
Yeah, but again, I go with what I've seen on the track. I'm sure there are S2000 track cars, but I've seen the RX8 win races. As is, I'm not a convertible guy. And if a sports car driver is worried about gas mileage, well that's another dilemma.

[LesMiner]

I have an Subrau WRX for a daily driver. At 265 hp and 0 - 60 at 5.6 seconds not bad for a 2.5 liter 4 cylinder. A lot cheaper than a BMW and more reliable. I commute 52 miles a day on freeways mostly. Plenty of zip to accelerate up into 75 mph traffic. Many times the AWD saved me in the snow and slippery conditions. Besides the Subaru assembly plant is right there in Indiana.

[Ti Designs]

I bet you are fun at dinner parties and social gatherings. Ridiculing those who just want to enjoy themselves. O Joy.


Ignorance is bliss. Within anything that's worth doing there is a range, from beginner to most experienced. What you're saying is that you simply don't what to know. Pushing the gas pedal of a sports car is fun, don't look beyond that. Same can be said for cycling, pushing yourself on a bike, competing with nobody but yourself is fun. I have a hard time disagreeing with that, but It's not the perspective form which I see the world.

The first autocross I entered was a mix of fun and nervous as hell. The 10th autocross was far more fun and a bit less nervous. Getting a feel for that range from beginner to most experienced and moving into that range, everything gets better. It's that way with everything, so I make it a point to understand where I am within anything I do. In cycling, my place within the sport has become clear - I'm old...

[Pete Serotta]

A generic rule of thumb is that a true "track" vehicle is not a fun or nice daily driver...and vice versa.

The S2000 i had was a wonderful fun toy but not too much fin in traffic for little torque or comfort.

The Miata is a pretty good (for my liking) daily and fun driver. Wish they had a factory turbo,,,,BUT my garage is full so i will not be getting any time soon.

Just like bikes, - go with the one that puts the biggest smile on your face

keep in mind that I am older than dirt, in fact i made dirt into dirt :eek: so this is just an ole guys's view.

The Mini S coupe is another fun one I could lust. (if I did not have my current toys, that one would be in the garage.) :)


Yes and I do love the e92 M3 with ZCP competition package...also

[Ti Designs]

A generic rule of thumb is that a true "track" vehicle is not a fun or nice daily driver...and vice versa.

Not always true. OK, driving an ice racing car with a welded diff to an event is a dumb idea and I happen to know that formula fords don't much like the potholes of my local roads, but the autocross car for around town can be a lot of fun - the speed limit in a rotary is still 30 MPH, and once I'm in it I have the right of way until I decide to exit...

[witcombusa]

I have an Subrau WRX for a daily driver. At 265 hp and 0 - 60 at 5.6 seconds not bad for a 2.5 liter 4 cylinder. A lot cheaper than a BMW and more reliable. I commute 52 miles a day on freeways mostly. Plenty of zip to accelerate up into 75 mph traffic. Many times the AWD saved me in the snow and slippery conditions. Besides the Subaru assembly plant is right there in Indiana.

The Impreza (WRX and STI) plus the Forester are made in Japan

[Pete Serotta]

Is the right one for anyone. Nothing is pure right or wrong in personal choice....if it is legal and does not hurt others. A mini S is always fun for me but I do not have one :crap: :crap: Have a good week and we can discuss over beer or wine this summer. If it is wine, I have a nice glass that a gentleman gave me!,,,,,,

Oh yeah ! That was you :D Pete

Not always true. OK, driving an ice racing car with a welded diff to an event is a dumb idea and I happen to know that formula fords don't much like the potholes of my local roads, but the autocross car for around town can be a lot of fun - the speed limit in a rotary is still 30 MPH, and once I'm in it I have the right of way until I decide to exit...

[David Kirk]

Most and more importantly to what we all think Mr. Pres should have did he get out and drive anything over the long weekend?

Dave

[Germany_chris]

you didn't ask me, but... :D

"best" is hard to define. an '87 is the pinnacle of the small-body 911s, particularly because of the G50 transmission. of the post-1990 bigger body styles, the 993s are awfully sweet. it's very subjective, but IMO the 993 is the prettiest body (especially in the wide, flared rearend models) of recent 911s. if you can find a low-mileage '93-early '98, grab it. steve is quite right, avoid the late '98s to 2005. porsche had a massive brain freeze there for a few years. a key question to ask yourself is: what size 911 body feels/looks best to you? like their drivers, 911s have gotten portly as the years have gone by.

+1, Amen

[Dave B]

Most and more importantly to what we all think Mr. Pres should have did he get out and drive anything over the long weekend?

Dave


Yes and no.

I began with a mustang as a neighbor has one. Black GT convertible (not the newest style) but the previous one. so 2004 I think. I liked the convertible a lot, but not sure if that road noise would bother me on the highway. It isn't a deal breaker and thet might just be convertibles. Never had one to know differently. It is a fun car and the exhaust note just sounded so nice. I had a godo time in this car and the neighbor said to punish it, which was fun.

Was "not allowed" to drive a M3 at either the dealership or Carmax, but could be driven around. I told the dealer to eff himself after a nice discussion and the carmax guy pointed me to a lower end 3 series. Must keep that I am a teacher to myself. Apparantly my budget isn't high enough for them. I will find one that I like and wear a suit to test drive it.

I wanted to try the honda 2000, but none around that I could find.

Again with all due respect, I hate the miatas. Not going to happen.

to be honest, reading what so many wrote I think i like muscle cars and in my limited vocabulary considered them sports cars. I like striaght line speed, but understand the fun of being able to flick a car around corners. I don't see myself driving like a jackwagon as I worry too much about hurting others. So stright seems safest.

My heart really wants a corvette and I have been doing loads of research on them as daily drivers, longevity, etc. There are early 2001 to 2005 that are wicked cheap with less then 60K miles around. I am paying double on my car payments to get it paid off quicker. 2005 saw a revamp of the interior and it looks much more refined. less plasticy and a bt more modern. More power too.

I think I have fallen in love with the V8 sound and styling of muscle cars. I do like some foreigns like the 350Z (and I have had several Nissans and loved em) so that might still be on the radar. The local place had a GTR, which replaced the skyline and it looked amazing. It was like $100K and that is more then my wife and I make together...so I am going to pass on that, but it would be bad-a$$

The Dodge Charger RT8 looks fun, but I hear it is wicked heavy and the loads of power don't move it like it should. The brand new ones 2012 have a boost in power and are supposed to be a bit lighter. I am very close to our local police after 10 years of DARE I know enough to get a ride in their Chargers. They are the mid hemi, so the RT version w/o the interceptor chip.

I am trying to find a student that might have a corvette in the family to try out. Several years ago one of mine did and her dad brought me his ZR1 to try out in the parking lot. Not much room you know, but fun to get after it. He took me for a drive and it was a blast.

Sooo, still learning, but I will admit I am a muscle car fan...right now. Only as the macho nonsense appeals to me. I am so girly I like to compensate. :D ( I suppose there is a bit more to the desire to have a corvette or something like it then I am sharing, but we don't really need to get all deep and personal here)

The advice you folks have given has been great. I love to learn and know so little about cars and more so fast cars. Thank you all for the help!

[AngryScientist]

Was "not allowed" to drive a M3 at either the dealership or Carmax, but could be driven around. I told the dealer to eff himself after a nice discussion and the carmax guy pointed me to a lower end 3 series. Must keep that I am a teacher to myself. Apparantly my budget isn't high enough for them. I will find one that I like and wear a suit to test drive it.



this is ridiculous. i'm definitely in an isolated bubble of the world, but it's not uncommon to see high school kids driving around in M3's around the NYC metro area.

you show up to any BMW dealership around here and they hand you the keys to whatever you like, scan your license and let you have at it.

[snah]

Not sure what your budget is, so this might be out since it's only a year old or so, but could also check the new Camaro. Being a local Indpls. guy, if you're interested in the S2000, not the same car as a Vette, but I've got a buddy that works for Honda West. Recommend this guy to anyone, send me a PM if you'd like his name.

[Dave B]

this is ridiculous. i'm definitely in an isolated bubble of the world, but it's not uncommon to see high school kids driving around in M3's around the NYC metro area.

you show up to any BMW dealership around here and they hand you the keys to whatever you like, scan your license and let you have at it.


agreed and I was kind of surprised, however being driven around in their car seemd silly. I didn't mind if he went with me, but was not going to hand me the keys. So I let him know I thought he was number one.

I laughed about it alter with my wife as she always says we are not destined for the BMW/Mercedes world. I disagree, but hey, it isn't a deal breaker on BMW's. I do think they look fantastic.

Again. I know my budget or financing luck will be the determining factor. I have loads of time and plenty of days to go back and try stuff. I figure some people just have bad days and he decided to take it out on me.

Plus i am waiting for Sandy to chime in and will me his porsche!

[snah]

Not sure what your budget is, so this might be out since it's only a year old or so, but could also check the new Camaro. Being a local Indpls. guy, if you're interested in the S2000, not the same car as a Vette, but I've got a buddy that works for Honda West. Recommend this guy to anyone, send me a PM if you'd like his name.

If you like the BMW 3 series, you could also scan for the 335, turbo and crazy fast I hear. Believe it's as fast as the previous generation M3, prior to the V8 power now.

Also agree that it's odd you got that treatment from Dreyer & Reinbold BMW. Admit I haven't visited the BMW site, but have spent plenty of time looking at Infiniti, which I'd also recommend, the G35/37 coupe is a really nice ride.

[Dave B]

Not sure what your budget is, so this might be out since it's only a year old or so, but could also check the new Camaro. Being a local Indpls. guy, if you're interested in the S2000, not the same car as a Vette, but I've got a buddy that works for Honda West. Recommend this guy to anyone, send me a PM if you'd like his name.


I thoght about this. My daughter (she turns 6 in a few weeks) wants me to get the yellow one like Bumblebee form transformers. I thgouth it would be fun until I hated yellow.

[Dave B]

If you like the BMW 3 series, you could also scan for the 335, turbo and crazy fast I hear. Believe it's as fast as the previous generation M3, prior to the V8 power now.

Also agree that it's odd you got that treatment from Dreyer & Reinbold BMW. Admit I haven't visited the BMW site, but have spent plenty of time looking at Infiniti, which I'd also recommend, the G35/37 coupe is a really nice ride.


:)

yeah they might have been more concerned with their Indy car team then working with us folks. Next time I am wearing a suit or tux!

[cody.wms]

agreed and I was kind of surprised, however being driven around in their car seemd silly. I didn't mind if he went with me, but was not going to hand me the keys.

I think this is getting more common, for every dealer. I don't think you can test drive an STi anywhere, and most places wont let you even drive the WRX.

[dd74]

A generic rule of thumb is that a true "track" vehicle is not a fun or nice daily driver...and vice versa.
Very true. But what's used successfully on the track can usually be brought to consumer street cars. There's been many improvements in cars that first appeared on race cars. 4-wheel disc brakes, independent suspensions, engine management, better gear boxes and steering, as well as safety features. In my view, a tough, reliable and safe race car will make for the underpinnings of a very good street car.

For instance, I've seen a Porsche Le Mans car hit a bridge abutment at 150 mph. The car was totaled, but more importantly, the driver walked away just a bloody nose.

The S2000 i had was a wonderful fun toy but not too much fin in traffic for little torque or comfort.
Which is why a person who wants a sports car needs to know exactly what they want, where and how they want to drive their car.

If you drive the 405 freeway in L.A. every day, an S2000 will be very challenging unless you don't mind winding the engine out before each shift in stop and go traffic. Instead, one might want the torque of a V6 or V8, or a GT-type car.

[dd74]

Speaking of GT cars, some Porsche 911 purists regard the new 996s and 997s as GT cars and not true sports cars. Some say the last 911 sports car Porsche produced was the 911SC from 1978 to 1983.

[benb]

The way the car industry categorizes things, the 911 is not a sports car as it has a back seat, it's a sports coupe or a GT or a 2+2, just like a Mustang or Camaro. Sports cars do not have back seats period according to the industry.

That BMW story is funny. Before I bought my Acura I test drove a used 330is 2-door with all the performance packages, this was in 05, there were no M3s that year IIRC. (Not that I'd ever have considered one really.) I showed up in shorts and a t-shirt on a saturday after getting stuck working that morning.. they checked my license and off we went.. very liberal test drive policy, they let me take the car down a twisty/bumpy road to make sure it wasn't too harsh, I slid the car around a cloverleaf, and got it up to about 90mph before the salesguy said anything. I went and test drove an Audi and they wouldn't even let me go fast enough to tell if it was quiet at highway speeds.

- Whatever you do, test drive the car at 80mph on a highway to evaluate whether it is quiet enough for you. Loud V8s are fun but they are really annoying droning along on a trip. I made this mistake with both the Mustang I owned way back when and my RSX Type S... the RSX is very quiet at low RPM and low throttle on back roads, but it has no overdrive, and so 80mph = 4000rpm and the engine has started to growl by that point.

- If you do look at an S2000 know that it is a waste of time if you're > 6ft.. that car has no room at all, I can't drive it at all, with the seat all the way back my knees are contacting the dash and I can't move my foot freely enough to operate the clutch.

[Ken Robb]

Again. I know my budget or financing luck will be the determining factor. I have loads of time and plenty of days to go back and try stuff. I figure some people just have bad days and he decided to take it out on me.
!

Dealer staff are in the selling business not in the car lending business. The more expensive/exotic the car you want to demo the more stringent they will be in "qualifying" you before you get a drive. This means they want to be convinced that you have the $$ to buy it if you want it and that you are the kind of driver who will probably like the car you want to demo and that you won't abuse it on a demo drive. For some reason you failed one or more of these qualifying sniff tests twice. You may look too young or too poor. I doubt that you look or sound too wild. :D

[Germany_chris]

Dealer staff are in the selling business not in the car lending business. The more expensive/exotic the car you want to demo the more stringent they will be in "qualifying" you before you get a drive. This means they want to be convinced that you have the $$ to buy it if you want it and that you are the kind of driver who will probably like the car you want to demo and that you won't abuse it on a demo drive. For some reason you failed one or more of these qualifying sniff tests twice. You may look too young or too poor. I doubt that you look or sound too wild. :D

To you it's a sports car, to him/her a commission.

[David Kirk]

Hey Pres -

It sounds like it will and should boil down to feeling and experience for you.

It's an interesting thing to me. You can take a lightweight car with a small engine and it will do straight-line speed just as well as any muscle car but it doesn't feel the same. I'm not sure I get why it is but it definitely feels different. When I do a 0-60 run in my Elise it takes 4 seconds but never gives that feeling of "holy crap". Yet get into a Mustang and do the same and it will take longer to get to 60 but it will often feel quicker. I guess it has to do with the fact that the Mustang has more than twice the mass of the Elise.

One thing about straight line speed. It is super fun and I love it - just as most folks do. But remember that you don't need to have a 4000 pound car to have that. And if something goes wrong (and at some point something will go wrong) the lighter car will almost always be easier to gather up and keep yourself out of the ditch.

Remember that big horsepower will make a car faster in a straight line and low weight will make it faster everywhere, all the time.

So do yourself a favor and humor us and test drive a classic sports car like the S2000 or a 911. If after that you still crave the V8 grunt then more power to you.

Have fun.

Dave

[Dave B]

Dealer staff are in the selling business not in the car lending business. The more expensive/exotic the car you want to demo the more stringent they will be in "qualifying" you before you get a drive. This means they want to be convinced that you have the $$ to buy it if you want it and that you are the kind of driver who will probably like the car you want to demo and that you won't abuse it on a demo drive. For some reason you failed one or more of these qualifying sniff tests twice. You may look too young or too poor. I doubt that you look or sound too wild. :D


Honestly looking back I can't blame a dealer for being cautious. Now if it was a Kia, I would have decked the guy, but it makes sense.

I do think however that was a failed chance to win some business. I don't think BMW means snob, however I do know there are stereotypes.
Next time I wil llook the part and bring my wife with me. She tends to distract men's attention so it mgiht work in my behalf. :D

[crownjewelwl]

Honestly looking back I can't blame a dealer for being cautious. Now if it was a Kia, I would have decked the guy, but it makes sense.

I do think however that was a failed chance to win some business. I don't think BMW means snob, however I do know there are stereotypes.
Next time I wil llook the part and bring my wife with me. She tends to distract men's attention so it mgiht work in my behalf. :D

you can blame the dealer...that's absurd...in college i walked into a bmw dealership claiming that my dad was buying me one as a graduation gift (i got a honda accord), and he handed me the keys to a gleaming red M3...

might be better if you call ahead and schedule a test drive...

[Germany_chris]

Hey Pres -

It sounds like it will and should boil down to feeling and experience for you.

It's an interesting thing to me. You can take a lightweight car with a small engine and it will do straight-line speed just as well as any muscle car but it doesn't feel the same. I'm not sure I get why it is but it definitely feels different. When I do a 0-60 run in my Elise it takes 4 seconds but never gives that feeling of "holy crap". Yet get into a Mustang and do the same and it will take longer to get to 60 but it will often feel quicker. I guess it has to do with the fact that the Mustang has more than twice the mass of the Elise.

One thing about straight line speed. It is super fun and I love it - just as most folks do. But remember that you don't need to have a 4000 pound car to have that. And if something goes wrong (and at some point something will go wrong) the lighter car will almost always be easier to gather up and keep yourself out of the ditch.

Remember that big horsepower will make a car faster in a straight line and low weight will make it faster everywhere, all the time.

So do yourself a favor and humor us and test drive a classic sports car like the S2000 or a 911. If after that you still crave the V8 grunt then more power to you.

Have fun.

Dave

I agree in a limited way..here (Germany) the autobahn is a HP war no matter how you slice it. In the states I was active in the SCCA racing an ITB first generation Golf. I've lived here 7 years now and drive the same type of car I did then, I can stay with anyone realistically until we reach 100mph then it's really SLOW to my top end of 135. My car older Opel Vectra with MUCH suspension work is happy doing anything I want from 50-100MPH I don't care the turn road or anything else...2 years ago I turned down a 2003 e39 540 that was fire sale priced ($5200) and I've regretted it since.

To the OP remember it's easy relatively to play Colin Chapman and add lightness, not so much with power. In the end they cost the same except you can do lightness but not power other than the basics.

[Ken Robb]

In truth, all the BMW dealers I have known are really keen to have people demo their cars because they know they drive better than MOST cars (no flame war please) so a good demo by a qualified buyer will often lead to a sale.

[johnnymossville]

...When I do a 0-60 run in my Elise it takes 4 seconds but never gives that feeling of "holy crap". Yet get into a Mustang and do the same and it will take longer to get to 60 but it will often feel quicker. I guess it has to do with the fact that the Mustang has more than twice the mass of the Elise....

I agree with you the Elise is a Sportscar while the Mustang isn't. The Mustang never was or never will be a "Sportscar." It was never intended to be one.

But,... dunno what Elise you have, but a Boss 302 Mustang beats the top of the line Elise SC just about everywhere, Acceleration, Handling, equals it in Braking, and is less expensive by a few thousand dollars, not to mention far more collectible.

[2ndproyer]

I have raced a porsche and at first a SAAB Sonnett! I will say you get what you pay for. BMW will keep its value a lot longer than a mustang. My brother has Z4 and its fun to drive. But witht the top up it's rather confining.

Miata's are fun too and are not very expensive. The Honda 2000 was a blast and they should hold value too!

Good Luck

Pete

[David Kirk]

I agree with you the Elise is a Sportscar while the Mustang isn't. The Mustang never was or never will be a "Sportscar." It was never intended to be one.

But,... dunno what Elise you have, but a Boss 302 Mustang beats the top of the line Elise SC just about everywhere, Acceleration, Handling, equals it in Braking, and is less expensive by a few thousand dollars, not to mention far more collectible.

I have an Elise that I have made a good bit lighter and added my own supercharger to. It makes about 240 hp at the wheels on the dyno and has done a timed 0-60 in 4 seconds flat. Not much with a mustang badge will come close to it except once the speeds get high.

dave

[fourflys]

the only thing I'll say to Pres is this... don't just look at the initial cost, but the cost of maintenance also, especially if you aren't going to do it yourself... there is one main reason I just got rid of my Benz... maintenance/repair costs... if you don't need a fourseater, I'd try real hard to find a S2000 since you don't like the Miata... I'd also look hard at one of the Nissan Z models, either hard top or vert... there is also the Mazda RX8 that actually has a backseat...

oh and I think a "sports car" is what it is in your mind... if a Mustang is a sports car to you (and I can see how it could be), then it is... Being from Indy, any car that paced the 500 is a sports car to me...

like I said, do some research on maintenance costs before you commit to a boutique car...

[RPS]

It's an interesting thing to me. You can take a lightweight car with a small engine and it will do straight-line speed just as well as any muscle car but it doesn't feel the same. I'm not sure I get why it is but it definitely feels different. When I do a 0-60 run in my Elise it takes 4 seconds but never gives that feeling of "holy crap". Yet get into a Mustang and do the same and it will take longer to get to 60 but it will often feel quicker. I guess it has to do with the fact that the Mustang has more than twice the mass of the Elise. That's interesting Dave. I've read about and also felt the difference driving lighter cars when turning but had not seen anyone express a difference when applied to a straight line. I would have expected the same linear acceleration to feel the same regardless of car mass.

Remember that big horsepower will make a car faster in a straight line and low weight will make it faster everywhere, all the time.
Sadly, low mass also makes it faster in decelerating and changing directions when it collides with another car, particularly of heavier mass, which in the real world of commuting in congested traffic is a possible event. I love light cars like your Elise (btw, very nice looking in Gator orange) but if I was going to commute a long distance in Houston traffic with lots of large SUVs and trucks on the road like I did for 15 years you couldn’t pay me enough to take the risk. On a track with other cars of similar mass or out in the country that’s another scenario altogether.

[Germany_chris]

I have an Elise that I have made a good bit lighter and added my own supercharger to. It makes about 240 hp at the wheels on the dyno and has done a timed 0-60 in 4 seconds flat. Not much with a mustang badge will come close to it except once the speeds get high.

dave

Until they do the same thing to their car..lightness is very European and HP is very American...Pick your side..Vipers and Corvettes out run/handle/brake/perform anything in there category. I wouldn't own either but thats how it is..when you say sports car in my minds eye I see a 72' carrera RS. Lightness and HP like the Lotus but German.

To the OP shall I sing the merits of the 993 to the heathens!!! perfect car perfect price!!

[dancinkozmo]

..imho 'vette or 370z take your pick.
..everything else is poseur / expensive / mid-life-crisis-mobile.

kirk gets a pass with his elise though, gots to love it when someone starts modding .... :)

[Dave B]

For those of you who tout the benefits of Porsche, BMW, even the mazdas. What do repairs look like? I understand quality cars can last and last, however they are all machines and go through wear. Are repair costs high, even if they are in frequent.

I am not looking to compare them to the mustang, corvette, or other American cars. I am just curious what types of things I would need to be prepared for.

When you read reviews you get loads of negatives ones over good ones (generalization)

[Dave B]

..imho 'vette or 370z take your pick.
..everything else is poseur / expensive / mid-life-crisis-mobile.

kirk gets a pass with his elise though, gots to love it when someone starts modding .... :)


That is funny, I expect most of my peers to say that. That is why i joked about the compensating thing.

Doesn't bother me.

I just talked to one of my DARE/Officer friends and he is going to ask and see if he can get me to take their pursuit driving course. I think that would be fun. Now Dave K, it is in a charger, so don't get too excited! :)

[Germany_chris]

For those of you who tout the benefits of Porsche, BMW, even the mazdas. What do repairs look like? I understand quality cars can last and last, however they are all machines and go through wear. Are repair costs high, even if they are in frequent.

I am not looking to compare them to the mustang, corvette, or other American cars. I am just curious what types of things I would need to be prepared for.

When you read reviews you get loads of negatives ones over good ones (generalization)

nothing German is going to be cheap to fix even here..if you want chaep to repair Look at Japan and America and pick your poison..

[David Kirk]

That's interesting Dave. I've read about and also felt the difference driving lighter cars when turning but had not seen anyone express a difference when applied to a straight line. I would have expected the same linear acceleration to feel the same regardless of car mass.

Sadly, low mass also makes it faster in decelerating and changing directions when it collides with another car, particularly of heavier mass, which in the real world of commuting in congested traffic is a possible event. I love light cars like your Elise (btw, very nice looking in Gator orange) but if I was going to commute a long distance in Houston traffic with lots of large SUVs and trucks on the road like I did for 15 years you couldn’t pay me enough to take the risk. On a track with other cars of similar mass or out in the country that’s another scenario altogether.

It's is all compromise and choice isn't it? You can not have your cake and eat it too it turns out.

One of the things about light cars and safety that isn't often mentioned is that a good handling and light weight car is much easier to avoid an accident in. I hear it called 'active safety' at times. So if I had to pick a car to be sitting at a stop light in knowing I was going to get rear ended by an SUV it would be something like an S class Benz. If on the other hand I had to pick a car to avoid an accident in it wouldn't be the the Benz - for me it would be something like the Elise.

Personally I treat these lightweight cars like motorcycles. I assume no one can see me and that they will pull out at the last second and I always leave an escape path when in traffic.

Would I commute in DC traffic with a lightweight? I don't honestly know. Maybe not. I do use my Lotus as an everyday car here in Bozeman and just got back from going through the drive-in at the bank and to the post office and it was good fun even doing that. I do know that I have chosen to live where I live so that I can ride and drive in a way that better suits me. So we all make choices. I don't have great restaurants or shopping and am not getting rich but I do have empty roads and ski slopes and I smile too much.

dave

[RPS]

So we all make choices. I don't have great restaurants or shopping and am not getting rich but I do have empty roads and ski slopes and I smile too much.

dave
Agreed ..... sounds like you you've made good choices. Luck helps too.

[rePhil]

I'm late to the party as usual. Are you going to be the only driver?
We bought a 09 Mustang convertible. Got the V-6 auto as it's basically the wife's car. Good mileage, enough power, not too noisy with the top down on the interstate. No way it's a "true' sports car, but it's fun enough to drive, gets decent mileage, the wife likes the creature comforts, and it's been rock solid, with out any problems at all.
The new V-6 has even more power, and the new 5.0 is an impressive engine.

[Germany_chris]

It's is all compromise and choice isn't it? You can not have your cake and eat it too it turns out.

One of the things about light cars and safety that isn't often mentioned is that a good handling and light weight car is much easier to avoid an accident in. I hear it called 'active safety' at times. So if I had to pick a car to be sitting at a stop light in knowing I was going to get rear ended by an SUV it would be something like an S class Benz. If on the other hand I had to pick a car to avoid an accident in it wouldn't be the the Benz - for me it would be something like the Elise.

Personally I treat these lightweight cars like motorcycles. I assume no one can see me and that they will pull out at the last second and I always leave an escape path when in traffic.

Would I commute in DC traffic with a lightweight? I don't honestly know. Maybe not. I do use my Lotus as an everyday car here in Bozeman and just got back from going through the drive-in at the bank and to the post office and it was good fun even doing that. I do know that I have chosen to live where I live so that I can ride and drive in a way that better suits me. So we all make choices. I don't have great restaurants or shopping and am not getting rich but I do have empty roads and ski slopes and I smile too much.

dave

except there not as quick or as agile..

[fourflys]

I just talked to one of my DARE/Officer friends and he is going to ask and see if he can get me to take their pursuit driving course. I think that would be fun.

a couple years ago, I had the opportunity to take the Blackwater advanced highway driving course... it was amazing! they had old police crown vics that they could turn the ABS on and off... such a great way to teach threshold braking...

as far as repair costs, I can tell Mercedes are expensive for maintenance or repair... My Miata was CHEAP to maintain and to mod... not sure on the rotary RX8...

[Firenze]

I'm really late to this party but my 2 cents.
German cars will eat you alive in maintenance costs. Fixing the motor in a BMW 325 drivers seat will run you over a grand (there are three motors in that seat).

Mustangs are fun but they aren't sports cars.

First time "sports car" that is fast, fun, a great touring car,and will make you one of the guys, get a vet. The newest one you can afford.

If you want the maximum fun for the buck get a Miata.

If you want to go just plain nuts, get a Cobra.

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj7/McQ2013/27760bcc.png

Arch

[David Kirk]

except there not as quick or as agile..

what aren't as quick or as agile?

Dave

[Dave B]

I will be driving this every day to work, to the grocery, to wherever I need to go. I will have my wife's Jeep Commander for any need to haul transport bikes, kid, family, etc.

My wife, god love her, tells me to get whatever I want. She doesn't care and wants me to have something fun. Will she drive it. Sure, if it is an automatic then for sure, if it is a stick then she will have to learn and I am happy to teach her.

2 seater 4 seater I don't care. I do have a 6 year old and she wants, "daddy to get a fast car" as we both love speed. I think a 2 seater limits times she can be in it legally, but maybe when no one is looking we can go for a short drive.

I am keeping an open mind as that is what will provide me with the best options. I think a Vette sounds magical. However I am not in a hury. I figured knowledge right now is the best way to prepare. So Ia m picking all of your brains for that and trust me I am incredibly grateful.

I find myself enjoying some of your ideas on the tradition and history of specific brands. Almost like when you buy a specific car you get a cult following along with it.

I think for years I saw friends identifying themselves with a car. What the car said about them and I think I got caught up in it. Now, to be honest. I just want a fast car. I want to blow the doors off of the guy in the honda civic next to me who doesn't know we are racing. I want to thrill my wife and daughter by stepping on the gas and launching the car and just a car to have fun in. I am tired of the SUV, which feels like the new mini van. I want a car that I have to crawl in and out of and is fun to start the engine when I get in it.

I want to feel like myself and not what others think I should have.

Maybe I need a therapist not a sports car. :rolleyes:

seriously I just want to enjoy driving again. loud music, performance, lose myself in the moment even if it is just to run to the store.

Dave's description of umping in his lotus to go to the bank with a wide grin sounds awesome. I want to grin again and live the dream I had when I first got my license. So to me I feel like a fast sporty, muscle-y car would do that. That is where i am coming from.

[rounder]

"Just like bikes, - go with the one that puts the biggest smile on your face"

I agree with Pete. You have to decide what kind of driving you will do. It makes no sense to me to buy an xyz car that you can only drive in first and second gear. It makes more sense (to me) to find a car that SENDS YOU in the kind of driving you like.

[AngryScientist]

my wife's Jeep Commander ...

good god, i know 2 people with these, they are like mega SUVs, driving any of the recommended "sports cars" after driving this will be a huge thrill.

[Dave B]

good god, i know 2 people with these, they are like mega SUVs, driving any of the recommended "sports cars" after driving this will be a huge thrill.

Well it does feel like a boat, strangely it is in the mid size class. It is smooth though.

It is wicked heavy and has the small V8 so it is effing slow!
Yeah the sports/muscle car is going to be fun! He he!

[velosport]

Well all this talk has me upgrading. Tomorrow, I'm dropping off the 2008 BMW Z4 and picking up a 2006 Z4 M with only 20,000 miles and of course it's Imola Red. Drove it today and wanted it immediately and had trouble playing it cool.

[Ken Robb]

Well all this talk has me upgrading. Tomorrow, I'm dropping off the 2008 BMW Z4 and picking up a 2006 Z4 M with only 20,000 miles and of course it's Imola Red. Drove it today and wanted it immediately and had trouble playing it cool.

A couple of months ago I suggested that Satch Carlson and I organize a rally for the San Diego Chapter of BMWCCA. I know all the back-country roads and he has LOTS of rally experience w/ the trick computers, etc. It is next Sunday. Last Sunday we ran a "guinea pig" test run with some folks who won't be available for the real thing.

This was the fourth time we ran the 107 mile route with me driving his Z4 M roadster. You would think that would be a heaven-sent assignment but---I'm SICK of the same route! WHINE, WHINE--poor BABY. It is a delightful car but I prefer his wife Kelly's 335i with lots of DINAN mods and 400+ HP. Steve is a good pal so they get preferential treatment. You have to wind the M Roadster up a bit for it to really go. Redline is 8,000RPM. The modified turbo pulls like gravity itself from 2,000 RPM. The DINAN exhaust has just the right rumble too.

[Hawker]

The Miata is the best selling sports car of all time with over 700,000 sold. I'm on my second one. They are NOT fast. However, they are what a sports car is supposed to be...balanced. They are tossable and light, have go-kart type handling and feel fast when ever a curve makes an appearance. They are cheap to maintain and lots of people get 200k miles out of them...and then some.

However, I tried using mine as a daily driver for about three months and went back to my Accord. Sorry, a Miata is best seen as a toy or diversion...not as a car to do errands, drop the kids off, etc. Lots of shifting in traffic, not much room in the trunk or the interior and not a quiet car. It's a sports car, not a sedan. If you want to do battle with some curvy roads you really ought to try one. But if you want to feel the rush of acceleration, this ain't the car.

www.Miata.net

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_Miata

[tuxbailey]

My wife, god love her, tells me to get whatever I want. She doesn't care and wants me to have something fun. Will she drive it. Sure, if it is an automatic then for sure, if it is a stick then she will have to learn and I am happy to teach her.



I envy you. Although I already have a manual sport car (98 M3/4,) it was acquired prior to meeting my wife. I am not sure if I can convince my wife if I were to spend a significant amount of money in a non-practical sport car, not to mention her learning to drive a stick.

That is why I am hanging to my car until it is worth fixing (currently at 153K miles and counting.)

[1happygirl]

The Miata is the best selling sports car of all time with over 700,000 sold. [snip]

Wow, I learned something. idk 'bout sports cars but I always saw Miatas as girls cars as they are cute & small. I had a turbocharged nissan z but it was too big for me I thought. I didn't like(understand) the tight race shifting. I would have been better with a Miata I think but my dad taught me 2 drive a stick with it.

just for curiosity, what is a normal redline rpm for sports cars(if it matters)?

[witcombusa]

[QUOTE=Hawker]The Miata is the best selling sports car of all time with over 700,000 sold.


Try 900,000 as of Feb. 2011.....

[slowgoing]

The Miata is also commonly referred to as "guillotine on wheels" by police and emergency responders. Not so much fun for you or those cleaning up when they flip or slide under the back of other cars.

[witcombusa]

The Miata is also commonly referred to as "guillotine on wheels" by police and emergency responders. Not so much fun for you or those cleaning up when they flip or slide under the back of other cars.


Don't blame the car....

Sounds like driver error to me....

[rice rocket]

Rollbars are a must for convertibles. They're not expensive, and they save lives.

http://www.bethania-garage.com/images/crash/crash_hbsport.gif

S2000s have built in ones, under the plastic trim is steel tubing. I think BMW does similar?

[RPS]

Don't blame the car....

Sounds like driver error to me....
There is no such thing as absolute safety no matter how “good” we think we are, or how defensive we drive. When a guy drives through a red light at mid cycle and pops out from behind large SUVs and trucks at an intersection less than one second from collision there is very little any driver can do.

It’s just like riding a bike. If you race enough you’ll eventually hit the pavement no matter how good a bike handler you are. On a race track other drivers are mostly competent and visibility is normally not obscured, but in heavy traffic there are some things that just happen that can’t be avoided. Skills and a good car can reduce risks but can’t eliminate them. I thought I was really good too never having had an accident in about 1 million miles but fate has a way to humble us all. :(

[kestrel]

When I found out my Serotta road bike fit in the trunk, this was the car I bought.


http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e19/serotta/DSCN1331.jpg

I've owned a 356B, Healey 3000, Sprites, 300Z, GTO and MGB, this car is all of them wrapped into a comfortable machine that can and does haul my bike on occasion while still getting 29MPG on the highway cruising at 75.
After 4 years of ownership I can still scare myself with the gas pedal in just about any gear or speed.

[Dave B]

When I found out my Serotta road bike fit in the trunk, this was the car I bought.


http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e19/serotta/WOBSMrightsidecopy.jpg

I've owned a 356B, Healey 3000, Sprites, 300Z, GTO and MGB, this car is all of them wrapped into a comfortable machine that can and does haul my bike on occasion while still getting 29MPG on the highway cruising at 75.
After 4 years of ownership I can still scare myself with the gas pedal in just about any gear or speed.


Sweeeet! :hello:

[rice rocket]

When I found out my Serotta road bike fit in the trunk, this was the car I bought.

Isn't the trunk opening a tiny port hole on the Z06/FRC?

[kestrel]

Isn't the trunk opening a tiny port hole on the Z06/FRC?

Same size trunk as the verts. Easily fits my 56. I have squeezed my freind's 59 in before.
Both wheels have to come off, but once the frame is in the wheels shoehorn right on top of the frame and the lid closes fine without forcing it. I keep a quilt to wrap it in so as not to get the car dirty or scratched.

[rugbysecondrow]

This is what I have wanted for years. As a high schooler i worked as a carni near where Bloomington Gold show as well as the cruise was held awesome. The ride i operated was at a stop sign and all the cars would stop and moat would lets loose off the stop, some side by side in a quick race. All the vettes, various years and styles. A few years ago I toured the factory and the museum in KY, great trip. My wife has given me the purchase nod for when kids are out of daycare. Bad ass!

When I found out my Serotta road bike fit in the trunk, this was the car I bought.


http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e19/serotta/WOBSMrightsidecopy.jpg

I've owned a 356B, Healey 3000, Sprites, 300Z, GTO and MGB, this car is all of them wrapped into a comfortable machine that can and does haul my bike on occasion while still getting 29MPG on the highway cruising at 75.
After 4 years of ownership I can still scare myself with the gas pedal in just about any gear or speed.

[witcombusa]

[QUOTE=rice rocket]Rollbars are a must for convertibles. They're not expensive, and they save lives.

http://www.bethania-garage.com/images/crash/crash_hbsport.gif
QUOTE]


Then you can't use the tonneau cover.....

For the track, absolutely (would be a requirement) but for me and now 20+ years.......nope.

[pjm]

There is no such thing as absolute safety no matter how “good” we think we are, or how defensive we drive. When a guy drives through a red light at mid cycle and pops out from behind large SUVs and trucks at an intersection less than one second from collision there is very little any driver can do.

It’s just like riding a bike. If you race enough you’ll eventually hit the pavement no matter how good a bike handler you are. On a race track other drivers are mostly competent and visibility is normally not obscured, but in heavy traffic there are some things that just happen that can’t be avoided. Skills and a good car can reduce risks but can’t eliminate them. I thought I was really good too never having had an accident in about 1 million miles but fate has a way to humble us all. :(
Still, I'm not gonna "drive" around in a rolling fortress.

Prez, I think a 'Vette is the car for you. If you decide you need a back seat....Dodge Challenger. Hemi. :D

[kestrel]

[QUOTE=rice rocket]Rollbars are a must for convertibles. They're not expensive, and they save lives.

http://www.bethania-garage.com/images/crash/crash_hbsport.gif
QUOTE]


Then you can't use the tonneau cover.....

For the track, absolutely (would be a requirement) but for me and now 20+ years.......nope.

No problems with the tonneau, go to a leather shop and have it cut and snaps or a zipper put in to fit around the rollbar. I did that with two of my Healey's and they looked very professional. :beer:

[RPS]

Still, I'm not gonna "drive" around in a rolling fortress.

I wasn’t suggesting that at all – just that we shouldn’t be quick to assign partial blame to all “victims” (hate that word but can’t think of another) of auto crashes. For what it’s worth, I love small cars and enjoy driving them and always have, although as long-term commuters I’ve chosen larger vehicles solely for safety reasons. My wishfulness can’t override my engineering mind and the knowledge of what happens when a 2000 pound car collides with a 6000 pound pickup – which are still way too prevalent on Houston roads.

This thread has been interesting because depending on how long it takes for my shoulder to get stronger, I’m either going to get a new small motorcycle to haul or a used “small” car that is very easy to tow when traveling on camping trips. Other than a Honda Fit every other car I’m considering is a small sports car – like Miata, MR2, or similar in size. I’d prefer those for the fun factor.

My dilemma is that traditional sports cars (two-seat RWD convertible) don’t carry tandems well at all. Compromising to a small car like a Fit allows carrying bikes inside while car is towed, and also makes more sense to go off-camp riding and leaving car behind unattended for hours. I fear a small convertible left alone would be a sitting duck for vandalism.

[Ken Robb]

[QUOTE=1happygirl
just for curiosity, what is a normal redline rpm for sports cars(if it matters)?[/QUOTE]
Redline is totally dependent on engine design so look for THE REDLINE on the tachometer and/or read the owners' manual.

An interesting sidenote: Newer "M" models from BMW have LEDs that change from red to yellow to green as the engine warms up to reflect safe RPM for a given engine/oil temperature. I'm not sure exactly where the coldstart redline is but lets guess 4,000RPM and it eventually gets as high as 8,000RPM on the last 6 cylinder "M" cars.

[bking]

Sorts car is what we say, muscle is what we usually mean. It may have been said here but really good drivers want handling/performance, most of us want POWER.
I'm a road trip guy, not a track man. We do have a great track outside Vegas, and I've spent a few days putting their cars through the paces.
What puts the smile on my face is the open road, and power...just give me more!
Many have said it above, find what puts the smile on...and remember, it may seem like plenty now, you're going to want more...
http://bking.smugmug.com/Travel/RoadTrip/IMG0652/41283477_XZfEz-L.jpg (http://bking.smugmug.com/Travel/RoadTrip/907661_cRVDo#41283477_XZfEz-A-LB)
Kansas
http://bking.smugmug.com/Travel/RoadTrip/IMG1474z/41283479_4zrBx-L.jpg (http://bking.smugmug.com/Travel/RoadTrip/907661_cRVDo#41283479_4zrBx-A-LB)
Mt Lassen, Ca.

Road trip with you and your wife, make sure there's room for a bag.

[snah]

Redline is totally dependent on engine design so look for THE REDLINE on the tachometer and/or read the owners' manual.

An interesting sidenote: Newer "M" models from BMW have LEDs that change from red to yellow to green as the engine warms up to reflect safe RPM for a given engine/oil temperature. I'm not sure exactly where the coldstart redline is but lets guess 4,000RPM and it eventually gets as high as 8,000RPM on the last 6 cylinder "M" cars.

If I remember correctly, my 2006 S2000 redlined at 8200 rpm's

[Ken Robb]

"Most folks think they want horsepower but they really want torque." "It's more fun to drive a slow car fast than to drive a fast car slow".

Not original with me but there is a lot of truth in both statements. I have driven 427 Cobras, 575 Ferrari Maranello in urban traffic and found it frustrating. OTOH I have hot lapped race tracks in American sedans w/automatics and had a really good time. Heck I hot-lapped Road Atlanta in a rented Ford Econoline 15 passenger van to demonstrate to a doubting Thomas that driving techniques apply to all vehicles not just sports cars.

[AngryScientist]

"It's more fun to drive a slow car fast than to drive a fast car slow".

.

too true. some of the early model VW gti's are favorites of mine. good handling, and you can really run them at the very edge of their performance having a blast.

run a corvette at the edge of its performance and wind up dead, or worse in a lot of cases.

[legacysti888]

I know this is not a sports car. BUT I want one so bad.

It certainly plasted a stooopidly wide grin on my face when I took it for a spin for a few hours. Magnetic ride and Auto.

556hp. Torque up the Ying Yang.

0-60sec in 3.9 secs. STOCK. $69,000.

Sooo bloody fun yet docile in traffic.

AND... AND... AND...

You can fit up to three bikes INSIDE the car!

[rice rocket]

The CTS-V is pretty small for a wagon. Don't fall victim to their wideangle photos...

http://i.imgur.com/SC66a.jpg

Looks spacious right?

http://i.imgur.com/8H2IY.jpg

Not when you add the spare tire in for perspective.

I like the idea, just would want something like...an M5 Touring. :)

[Dave B]

I live next to my dentist and he had the Caddy in the standard version not the wagon. Corvette engine all the goodies. He went through tires a lot and then bought a H2 with a 3 in lift kit. Opposite ends of the spectrum.

[RPS]

"Most folks think they want horsepower but they really want torque."

IMO most people don't know the difference well enough to know what it is they really want. :rolleyes:

What it should imply in one way or another is that people really prefer their power at lower RPMs; which is not the same.

[Dave B]

"Most folks think they want horsepower but they really want torque." "It's more fun to drive a slow car fast than to drive a fast car slow".

Not original with me but there is a lot of truth in both statements. I have driven 427 Cobras, 575 Ferrari Maranello in urban traffic and found it frustrating. OTOH I have hot lapped race tracks in American sedans w/automatics and had a really good time. Heck I hot-lapped Road Atlanta in a rented Ford Econoline 15 passenger van to demonstrate to a doubting Thomas that driving techniques apply to all vehicles not just sports cars.


Would I be correct in thinking that th ecloser the two number are the better it is?

[rice rocket]

Nope, more is better. Always. :no:

[RPS]

Would I be correct in thinking that th ecloser the two number are the better it is?
It depends so much on the context of the question that simply answering yes or no makes no sense to me. As examples:

First, better for what? A sports car, a racer, a pickup for towing, or a tractor? I guess in context of thread we can safely assume sports car.

Second, in what units? Power measured in horse equivalents versus torque in pound-feet won't compare the same when other units are used.

Third, is engine pressurized? Naturally aspirated versus turbo or supercharged are not equal.

Fourth, what displacement per cylinder? Smaller engines typically rev higher which means they typically produce more power compared to units of torque.

Fifth, how important is fuel economy? Engines tuned for higher power usually consume more fuel during same driving cycle.

I could go on with other factors like old versus new, direct injection versus old carburetors, etc… but the bottom line is that IMO there is no simple answer of what’s “better” unless your question can be narrowed more.

[Dave B]

ok, I don't understand everything you typed, but do get the overall sentiment.

:beer:

[RPS]

ok, I don't understand everything you typed, but do get the overall sentiment.

:beer:
OK, sorry about that. HP versus torque is a pet peeve of mine.

Let's look at both extremes and middle: Assume a relatively new engine (excluding old MGs and Mustangs, etc... which are quite different), and a naturally aspirated engine (no turbo or supercharger). Most newer engines in cars you are likely looking at have displacement per cylinder that fall within a reasonable range of about 500 to 800 CC. With those assumptions in mind, engines with much more lb-ft of torque than HP will likely be tuned with bias towards low-end grunt for towing and moving heavier SUVs and trucks, engines with much more HP than lb-ft of torque are likely tuned with bias towards high-end power for greater all-out performance, and engines with similar lb-ft of torque and HP are a good compromise for all-around driving.

Note that the recent use of direct fuel injection along with dual variable valve timing has shifted the numbers further towards more HP versus torque. That trend has been going on for a very long time and seems to have no end in sight. My old Mustang produces nearly twice as many lb-ft of torque than HP. That's because it can't breathe at high RPM to produce power, yet at 2000 RPM it can produce as much torque as modern engines of similar displacement produce at 4000 RPM.

The only thing I'd add is that comparing my engine's torque at 2000 RPM with a new engines equal torque at 4000 is idiotic -- IMHO that is.

[rugbysecondrow]

Not to discount the knowledge RPS is dropping, but smile test, that is the correct one. It doesn't matter what person A,B, or C wants or says, what matters is what puts a smile on your face as you will not buy the car otherwise. For me, if the car "makes it move", then it is the right one. If you have to ask what "it" is, pm me.

Most of us are mere mortals and will only use a small portion of the auto's performance, so use either the smile or "move" test.

[Ken Robb]

OK, sorry about that. HP versus torque is a pet peeve of mine.



Note that the recent use of direct fuel injection along with dual variable valve timing has shifted the numbers further towards more HP versus torque. -- IMHO that is.

I think the use of variable valve timing has broadened the range where an engine makes usable power (torque). The first such engine I personally had experience with was the BMW 2.5 liter six. Up until 1992 it did not have variable valve timing but that feature was introduced in the 1993 models. Maximum HP remained the same as was max torque but torque in the mid-range was boosted so the car felt peppier in every day driving. It wasn't really faster in all-out performance winding it out through the gears but the newer car with VANOS (BMW's term) could often accelerate fast enough without the downshift required by the earlier car. My racing buddies preferred the early engine without VANOS because it added weight and complexity but no benefit for a race car that would be running in the 5,000-7,500 RPM range any way.

[kestrel]

Not to discount the knowledge RPS is dropping, but smile test, that is the correct one. It doesn't matter what person A,B, or C wants or says, what matters is what puts a smile on your face as you will not buy the car otherwise. For me, if the car "makes it move", then it is the right one. If you have to ask what "it" is, pm me.

Most of us are mere mortals and will only use a small portion of the auto's performance, so use either the smile or "move" test.

I had to look up my HP vs Torque numbers. (405/400) I use the same criteria Rugby uses. SMILES per mile! I also use it for my gas mileage figures. When I get 19 MPG around town, my smile index goes down. When I get 14 MPG around town... well.....you couldn't wipe the smile off with a whole bucket full of handiwipes. My turbo Subaru gives me some good smiles, but nothing like the (blank) eatin' grin of the Z06. :D :D

[RPS]

I think the use of variable valve timing has broadened the range where an engine makes usable power (torque). The first such engine I personally had experience with was the BMW 2.5 liter six. Up until 1992 it did not have variable valve timing but that feature was introduced in the 1993 models. Maximum HP remained the same as was max torque but torque in the mid-range was boosted so the car felt peppier in every day driving. It wasn't really faster in all-out performance winding it out through the gears but the newer car with VANOS (BMW's term) could often accelerate fast enough without the downshift required by the earlier car. My racing buddies preferred the early engine without VANOS because it added weight and complexity but no benefit for a race car that would be running in the 5,000-7,500 RPM range any way.
Makes perfect sense to me.

If an engine is going to see service in a very narrow RPM range, then variable valve timing doesn’t contribute much at all, right? You just build the engine for optimum performance at that one desired speed. I don’t follow racing like I use to, but I expect that a NASCAR engine that will be lapping around for hours in a narrow range of RPM would not have variable valve timing. It would only be useful if they needed extra low-end torque to get out of the pits, but instead they use the tires as a slip clutch. :rolleyes:

Although fixed valve timing led to poor efficiency at other RPMs, I personally like the sound a classic high-performance muscle-car V8 made because of it. Without variable valve timing in those days, tuning the engines for high HP made them next to useless at low RPM, but the resulting sound was pleasing to my ears.

[RPS]

Not to discount the knowledge RPS is dropping, but smile test, that is the correct one. It doesn't matter what person A,B, or C wants or says, what matters is what puts a smile on your face as you will not buy the car otherwise. For me, if the car "makes it move", then it is the right one. If you have to ask what "it" is, pm me.

Most of us are mere mortals and will only use a small portion of the auto's performance, so use either the smile or "move" test.
Do you think I will be offended if you disagree with me? Stop beating around the bush and have at it. I'm not that insecure; really. :no:

[Dave B]

I think he means your stick shifter! :beer:

[tlm993]

Seems like there's a good discussion going on about sports cars, but thought I'd chime in too.

The sports car is an essential vehicle to have or own at some point in time. Like you, I have young kids and need to have a vehicle that can transport them on occasion, like every day.

We have a few cars so we're fortunate to have a choice to what we drive and when. I had a pathfinder then a Volvo XC90 so I feel your need to get away from SUVs!

Our 'sports' car is the '95 911 C4. We can all fit in there (4 of us) believe it or not though my 13 year old boy is not too comfortable squished in the back seat. :) It's also been our most reliable car to date after more than 12 years of ownership.

Our other cars are the Ford Flex (family hauler) and a BMW 325i wagon (everyday car).

The BMW in particular is our go to car for just about everything short of a 200 mile road trip. It's the car we drive the 'crap out of'. With a manual transmission, this is a very fun car to drive. It's not powerful or fast, but the fun ratio is very high, probably higher than the p-car. Make no mistake though, it's not a 'sports' car. Plus, I can put my bike in there if I need to. The balance and handling of this small wagon is why BMWs have such a following with driving enthusiasts.

As far as maintenance goes, I do most of the wrenching on the cars, so beyond the sensors that go bad or oil changes every 5k, it's not too much. The p-car has had a few things go bad, but nothing unheard of and all have been well known weak points. The BMW and the 911 have not left me stranded unlike the Ford...

Hope that helps!

[rugbysecondrow]

Do you think I will be offended if you disagree with me? Stop beating around the bush and have at it. I'm not that insecure; really. :no:

I don't disagree with what you are saying, I don't know enough to agree or disagree with you. What I know is that most of us guys are simple. If the car makes your dickie tingle and/or put a smile on your face, then go for it. All the specs are nice, but with out the smile, it won't matter.

Also, put the finger in the holster church lady.

[rugbysecondrow]

I think he means your stick shifter! :beer:

Thanks, that is exactly what I meant. :)

[Ken Robb]

Makes perfect sense to me.


Although fixed valve timing led to poor efficiency at other RPMs, I personally like the sound a classic high-performance muscle-car V8 made because of it. Without variable valve timing in those days, tuning the engines for high HP made them next to useless at low RPM, but the resulting sound was pleasing to my ears.

"RUMPA, RUMPA, RUMPA---BUHWAAAAAEEEE :beer:

[RPS]

Also, put the finger in the holster church lady.
If you want to be a jerk, at least have the backbone to be honest.

[Firenze]

I am at the point in life where practical is not a consideration. On a smiles per mile basis, the Cobra is simply amazing. Just walking into the garage and seeing it makes me smile, every time.

Any sports car that you consider should have that effect on you at some level. If it doesn't, it won't be worth the compromises you need to make.

By the way, torque is what gives you that kick in the pants feeling when you mash the go pedal. Horsepower is what lets you cruise at high speed.

Good luck,
Arch

[rugbysecondrow]

If you want to be a jerk, at least have the backbone to be honest.

You amuse me. Go get a beer and relax.

[Dave B]

No no, this has been an awesome thread, no worries fellas.

This is great info for me and to be honest others. Let us keep it about the brotherhood of us guys and gal loving to drive.

All good yeah! :beer:

[bking]

horsepower vs torque, easy, more of both please.

That said, torque makes a car easier and far less tiring to drive. Love the sound of the high horsepower, high revving cars, but long term driving it's nice to have the right power/torque curve.

[dd74]

For city driving, you will more readily operate in the torque range of an engine. Diesel owners know this, and understand this, once they drive a diesel. Doesn't matter if it's a race driver or a soccer mom, it's the torque and ease of operation many of them subsribe to as the virtues of a diesel, not to mention the high gas mileage.

This is what makes owning a sports car in L.A., for instance, so impractical. My idea of a sports car is one where the engine is at its best near peak RPMs. A Honda Civic Si is a perfect example, which is a great hi-po car if you like bouncing off the redline on the way to the grocery store.

For everyone else, it's all about the torque.

[rice rocket]

A Honda Civic Si is a perfect example, which is a great hi-po car if you like bouncing off the redline on the way to the grocery store.
Damn, you must do some fast commuting! :butt:

[fourflys]

the best explanation of what hp vs. torque I've heard wad this...

imagine trying to pick up a load of something... torque is how much you can pick up... HP is how fast you can pick it up...

at least it made sense to me...

[RPS]

the best explanation of what hp vs. torque I've heard wad this...

imagine trying to pick up a load of something... hp is how much you can pick up... torque is how fast you can pick it up...

at least it made sense to me...
I think you wrote it backwards. :)

[fourflys]

I think you wrote it backwards. :)

I might have, I was typing with one hand and a baby on my lap...

I knew it didn't sound right... ;)

fixed...

[RPS]

After the damping versus isolation discussions I told myself I wouldn’t do this again, but I’m slow to learn. :crap:



Without defining shaft speed torque doesn’t mean much, and doesn’t define how much work can be done in a given amount of time; which is ultimately what counts. It really is that simple regardless of how complex some want to make it.

Maybe the simple horse-driven mills pictured below will get the gist across. When a horse pulls through a long lever arm he generates all kinds of torque at the center shaft – more than a Cummins turbo diesel – but the power is still 1 HP because it takes him so long to make the circle. Lots of torque but low horsepower due to low speed. It may be 1000 lb-ft of torque but can’t run my lawn mower.

Simply make the lever arm twice as long and the torque doubles. Power however remains at 1 HP. That’s because it will take the horse twice as long to walk around the bigger circle, hence torque will be double but speed will be half. Except for choosing the correct gearing to turn the mill at same speed it’s all the same; except to the guys designing the structure which has to be made stronger to deal with the greater stresses created by the greater torque.

Same basic principles apply to cars and bikes too.

[CarlosContreros]

I love my S2000!!

I upgraded my '06 with the "Club Racer" suspension..changed the
final drive from 4.10 to 4.44(dramatically improved stoplight to stoplight
and car response(torque)..
and also had the car tuned with Hondata program matched with
higher flow cat and performance headers.

It is wayyyyyy fast...and handles as well as most exotics!

Honestly...this car is too fast and handles too well...while on public roads
I've learned discipline and discretion.

[kestrel]

I love my S2000!!

...........................
I've learned discipline and discretion.

Let me translate that for you:

You haven't been caught lately! :D :D :beer:

[fourflys]

I love my S2000!!

I upgraded my '06 with the "Club Racer" suspension..changed the
final drive from 4.10 to 4.44(dramatically improved stoplight to stoplight
and car response(torque)..
and also had the car tuned with Hondata program matched with
higher flow cat and performance headers.

It is wayyyyyy fast...and handles as well as most exotics!

Honestly...this car is too fast and handles too well...while on public roads
I've learned discipline and discretion.

When I can get another 2 seater (read, kids older...), A Miata will on the top (sentimental issue) with an S2000 a VERY close second...