Campy 10 to 11 speed..new derailer time?

[Bob Loblaw]

Hey all,

I have a friend considering going from Record 10 Ultra to 11 speed. Will his existing Record 10 derailers work with 11s? I believe his derailers date to 2006 or 2008.

Thanks!

BL

[Chousen One]

?

Record 10 will definitely* not go to 11. You need a whole new group, as the chain width is narrower, necessitating narrower chainrings at the very least, and an extra index gear requires new shifters and derailleurs.

*EDIT: Maybe it will? Has anyone actually done this? I know people have done it backwards in a fix which on second thought leads me to believe maybe you'd be okay with just shifters, chainrings and chain as suggested below...

[christian]

Really? Shifters for sure, but unless the pivot points of the derailleur have changed, why would you need a new derailleur?

[Chousen One]

Good point. I can't say for sure, but I suspect that the 11 speed RD has a narrower cage than the 10 speed. You may run into clearance issues in the extreme gears but I'm just speculating there, not 100% on that one. Also, I think the jockey wheels are different widths between 11 and 10 as they were between 10 and 9, albeit minimal.

I know people have done the opposite and run 11 speed derailleurs from 10 speed shifters, so you're probably fine now that I think about it. But, gross! What's wrong with 10 speed (you friend should just give me those junk 10 speed shifters) :wink:

[Chousen One]

google tells me that it's been done, so egg on my face. read about it here:
http://www.cyclingforums.com/forum/thread/467252/campy-11-speed-upgrade

:embarassed:

[gone]

I'm using a record 10 crankset with an otherwise record 11 group. 10k+ miles on it and no problems at all.

[GuyGadois]

I'm using a record 10 crankset with an otherwise record 11 group. 10k+ miles on it and no problems at all.

I think you could use a 1980's vintage crank with 11 speed. In other words, I think the crank is the most flexible.

-GG-

[oldpotatoe]

?

Record 10 will definitely* not go to 11. You need a whole new group, as the chain width is narrower, necessitating narrower chainrings at the very least, and an extra index gear requires new shifters and derailleurs.

*EDIT: Maybe it will? Has anyone actually done this? I know people have done it backwards in a fix which on second thought leads me to believe maybe you'd be okay with just shifters, chainrings and chain as suggested below...

Not true at all. I just installed SR 11s ERGO onto a gents all 10s Record rig with just shifters, cogset and chain and it works just fine. Front and rear worked just fine, absolutely no need for chainrings.

[Bob Loblaw]

That's what I was hoping. He's a tall guy, and he's going to 177.5 cranks anyway, but if we can save a few shekels on the derailers, it might make it easier to sell to his wife.

Not true at all. I just installed SR 11s ERGO onto a gents all 10s Record rig with just shifters, cogset and chain and it works just fine. Front and rear worked just fine, absolutely no need for chainrings.

[Bob Loblaw]

One of my rides is a vintage steelie sporting 7-speed Campy crank with 10 speed everything else. I race it in criteriums, and it shifts flawlessly.

I think you could use a 1980's vintage crank with 11 speed. In other words, I think the crank is the most flexible.

-GG-

[oldpotatoe]

One of my rides is a vintage steelie sporting 7-speed Campy crank with 10 speed everything else. I race it in criteriums, and it shifts flawlessly.

The very first 10s conversion I did in 2000 was on a gents otherwse DA 8s bike. I changed the rear der, shifters, new rear wheel, cogset and and chain and it worked just fine on 7410 crank and front derailleur..brakes were ok also.

There is a lot more compatibility out there than many would think. Yes, Campagnolo 10s shifters shift a sram road rear der shimano 10s spacing.

It's probably never accurate to listen to manufacturers and 'certain' mailorder places. I have a customer who just went to a local, un-named MO outfit and asked about Athena...the answer was, "Athena being dropped by Campagnolo, just get sram'...what crappola.

BTW-just warrantied my 10th or 11th sram RH shifter, this one for busted teeth on the actual ratchet. 3rd time for this customer. Lady on the phone was so apologetic that she is sending a SET of Red shifters....and bar tape....and a chain...yikes..maybe it would be cheaper if they just made better stuff....

[ultraman6970]

I believe Campagnolo changed the pulling in the campagnolo 11 RD, so probably you might need to change it, but somewhere i read that it works just fine.

Cranks i heard they work fine, FD pull is different too but so far i read a few days ago you have to change the bolt piece where the FD attaches the cable and you could be ready to go. But I suspect that the usual FD will work fine anyways as it is.

Campagnolo should have kept the same cable diameter for 11, the idea i suspect was to save weight, why save it when the thinner cable stretches more often? Carbon fiber threads doubt will stretch that much, niche??

"This one goes to 11!!"

[oldpotatoe]

I believe Campagnolo changed the pulling in the campagnolo 11 RD, so probably you might need to change it, but somewhere i read that it works just fine.

Cranks i heard they work fine, FD pull is different too but so far i read a few days ago you have to change the bolt piece where the FD attaches the cable and you could be ready to go. But I suspect that the usual FD will work fine anyways as it is.

Campagnolo should have kept the same cable diameter for 11, the idea i suspect was to save weight, why save it when the thinner cable stretches more often? Carbon fiber threads doubt will stretch that much, niche??

"This one goes to 11!!"

Cable, inner wire is the same, housing went to 4mm.

SR/Record/Chorus/2010 Athena/Centaur/Veloce doesn't care which FD you use. All these LH levers are still 'ratcheting friction', altho fewer clicks.

2007/8 Centaur/Veloce, 2011 Athena/Centaur/Veloce need a post 2008 Campagnolo front derailleur to work properly.

[christian]

There is a lot more compatibility out there than many would think. Yes, Campagnolo 10s shifters shift a sram road rear der shimano 10s spacing.Does this work 100%? I have a pair of aero 10sp Shimano wheels hanging forlornly in my shop. If a Sram road RD got them some use, I'd be willing to do that!

[oldpotatoe]

Does this work 100%? I have a pair of aero 10sp Shimano wheels hanging forlornly in my shop. If a Sram road RD got them some use, I'd be willing to do that!

100%, as in in all cases everywhere, always, worldwide?

I donno. The one I saw, that Lennard Zinn brought in, 10s ERGO, sram Force RD and shimano 10s cogset and it shifted really well..............

[fatallightning]

Does this work 100%? I have a pair of aero 10sp Shimano wheels hanging forlornly in my shop. If a Sram road RD got them some use, I'd be willing to do that!
i'd call it 60%. sram leverrs pull linearly, campy not at all.

i have 11 speed levers pulling 10 speed ultra torque veloce everything else, works fine.

i also run 10 speed zipp rings on my other 11 speed bike and it also is fine.

i also cable and housing with whatever i have around, my main bike is white sram housing and campy style jagwire cables.

[oldpotatoe]

i'd call it 60%. sram leverrs pull linearly, campy not at all.

i have 11 speed levers pulling 10 speed ultra torque veloce everything else, works fine.

i also run 10 speed zipp rings on my other 11 speed bike and it also is fine.

i also cable and housing with whatever i have around, my main bike is white sram housing and campy style jagwire cables.

That's not really Campagnolo 10s ERGO with a sram RD....I'd say it's higher than 60%..gonna go out a limb here..92%...

[AngryScientist]

user Dave, who's the campy expert had a small trick to modify the lever arm of a 10-sp RD to more closely mimic the 11-sp ratio. that would make it work perfectly, but apparently it can be done with no mods, though probably not shift as precisely.

[kramnnim]

Does this work 100%? I have a pair of aero 10sp Shimano wheels hanging forlornly in my shop. If a Sram road RD got them some use, I'd be willing to do that!

Chorus 11 ergos and RD shifted very well coupled with 7800 RD/cassette/chain/FD...

[christian]

gonna go out a limb here..92%...Thanks Peter. Just the info I needed. Going to build it up and go. I'm pretty good at adjusting derailleurs, and pretty forgiving in shift performance, so if you think it's 92% good, I'm sure it'll be 110% good for me.

[feta99]

100%, as in in all cases everywhere, always, worldwide?

I donno. The one I saw, that Lennard Zinn brought in, 10s ERGO, sram Force RD and shimano 10s cogset and it shifted really well..............
I've had this done to one of my bikes, after reading aboout it from Zinn, and can verify that it works. It is great way for campy drivetrain bikes to use Shimano wheels.

[Dave]

A Campy 10 speed RD has a slightly smaller actuation ratio than 11 speed. I made a small modification to the cable clamp bolt on a 10 speed RD to make it much closer to 11 speed. The opposite setup will work well enough, since small amounts of overshifting tend to be more tolerable than undershifting.

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=160601

As far as mixing Campy and SRAM goes, that can't work very well. Campy 10 shifters pull an AVERAGE 2.8mm of cable per shift, but the actual pulls are 2.5mm five times, 3.0 mm twice and 3.5mm twice. A SRAM shifter pulls a uniform 3mm per shift. If you use a Campy shifter with a SRAM RD, you'd be far behind the needed cable pull after the first five shifts. Can't work too well.

As for Campy 11 speed shifters with a 10 speed Campy drivetrain, that's not even close, since Campy 10 need needs an average cable pull of 2.8mm and 11 speed shifters only pull an average 2.6mm.

Using Campy 11 shifters and RD with Shimano 10 would result in a substantially undershifting set, the moves the RD ony 3.8mm per shift, compared to the 3.95mm cog spacing.

[ultraman6970]

That's a super interesting fix, wonder if drill a hole in the middle will do the trick better.

[Dave]

That's a super interesting fix, wonder if drill a hole in the middle will do the trick better.

You couldn't tighten the bolt if the cable ran through it.

[ultraman6970]

True :D

For the FD campagnolo advice to change the bolt and the washer only. Cant remember where i read that.