Tyler

[LegendRider]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/tyler-hamiltons-letter-of-confession

Bravo for telling truth.

[Big Dan]

Believe.....

[Louis]

Does he get a relocation package so "they" don't come after him?

[rcnute]

Floyd.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . to hit 12,000 forum posts . . .

BRAVO, TYLER.

BBD

[Steve in SLO]

After reading the accompanying article at the bottom, one wonders:
Will LIVESTRONG have to change its name?

[MarleyMon]

I just saw an ad for 60 Minutes in which Tyler says he saw Lance use epo in the '99 Tour.

[FlashUNC]

Link to the ESPN story:

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cycling/news/story?id=6567822

[djg21]

After reading the accompanying article at the bottom, one wonders:
Will LIVESTRONG have to change its name?

http://www.jailbaitcyclesandrods.com/store/images/live_wrong_bracelet_back_400.jpg

[MattTuck]

This whole witch hunt is such a waste of money. Did you know that the Army, Navy and Airforce all sponsor football and baseball? Maybe they should go after athletes in those leagues using PEDS as well. doubtful.... :rolleyes:

[fourflys]

good on Tyler! he is such a nice guy, I hope he finds some peace now... living a low is never easy...

[slowgoing]

All of them will say whatever they need to say to protect their best interests at the time. None of them are credible.

[Lifelover]

Most damning evidence against LA I have seen. He looked emotionally upset saying he saw him inject.

However, I still don't give a Rat A$$ if any athlete took PEDs.

Go Lance Go.

As long as he not convicted before this year TDF I get a free Tee! :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:

[rwsaunders]

All of them will say whatever they need to say to protect their best interests at the time. None of them are credible.

+1.

[bart998]

While I'm not a Lance fan, Tyler has no cred.

[mgm777]

This can't be good for LA, given that the "Federal Investigation" was the catalyst and venue chosen by Tyler, for his conscience clearing. Jeff Novitzky now has 6 more hours of sworn testimony as a fuel source for continuing the investigation. Is it just me, or is it starting to feel hot in here?

[rugbysecondrow]

All of them will say whatever they need to say to protect their best interests at the time. None of them are credible.


Exactly.

[BumbleBeeDave]

Cyclingnews contacted Lance Armstrong's attorney who released this statement.

"Tyler Hamilton just duped the CBS Evening News, 60 Minutes and Scott Pelley all in one fell swoop. Hamilton is actively seeking to make money by writing a book, and now he has completely changed the story he has always told before so that he could get himself on 60 Minutes and increase his chances with publishers. But greed and a hunger for publicity cannot change the facts: Lance Armstrong is the most tested athlete in the history of sports: He has passed nearly 500 tests over twenty years of competition."

There are more and more riders coming forward who may have been caught testing positive once or twice, but who also passed hundreds of doping tests--just like Armstrong.

As they do so, the same defense trotted out by Lance's lawyers and PR flacks--that he passed hundreds of tests--or that he "never tested positive"--just gets more and more lame.

When I was a child my grandparents lived in the Arkansas River delta and I would often go fishing with my grandfather. On one such trip I was walking along the shore and saw a large fish laying on the bank. I thought it was still alive because it seemed to be writhing. But when I poked it with a stick I saw the real reason it was moving. The skin tore and I realized the insides were a seething mass of maggots.

I don't think this investigation is a waste of money because it has evolved beyond Armstrong to bring more light to the true extent of doping and how pro cycling for a long time has been a mere normal looking shell over a truly rotten interior, just like that fish. Now cycling is being poked with a stick and the maggots are being exposed.

BBD

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . that she can ride fast enough to catch Lance.

[Elefantino]

I like Tyler. A lot. Always have. He is genuinely a nice guy, always accommodating, makes you feel like you're important to him when you meet.

That said, this confession is years too late. If he and others had wanted to help the sport (!) they could have come out when they were still IN the peloton. The book sales they would have gotten then would have been rocking.

Now, he's just another ex-athlete trying to come to terms with his own years of lies. Cost him his career. May have cost him his marriage. And, apparently, a lot of self-respect.

[Spin71]

Why beat a dead horse. They are all dopers and always will be. It's not gonna change no matter how much some want it too. You have a better shot at seeing clean cycling in our life times as you will seeing peace in the middle east. It has zero effect on how much I enjoy watching pro cycling.

[weiwentg]

I like Tyler. A lot. Always have. He is genuinely a nice guy, always accommodating, makes you feel like you're important to him when you meet.

That said, this confession is years too late. If he and others had wanted to help the sport (!) they could have come out when they were still IN the peloton. The book sales they would have gotten then would have been rocking.

Now, he's just another ex-athlete trying to come to terms with his own years of lies. Cost him his career. May have cost him his marriage. And, apparently, a lot of self-respect.

true. but better late than never, imo.

[harlond]

I don't think this tells us anything new about either Lance or Tyler.

[JumpStart]

Tyler lost me with his Vanishing Twin...

[bicycletricycle]

It is always good and healthy to tell the truth. thank you tyler for doing so.

[goonster]

Bravo Tyler.

[christian]

Better late than never.

[Rueda Tropical]

"This case isn't like Bonds and Clemens," a source familiar with the case said to AP – the latter facing trial for perjury following the alleged use of performance enhancing drugs. "Those were about lying. This is about corruption to the core."

I would not be surprised if this brings down the UCI. This may impact a lot more then some retired athletes who rode through the glory days of EPO use juiced to the gills. Could it be through the money trail that they have uncovered a multinational multimillion dollar drug ring supported by a thoroughly corrupt regulating body? Cycling might be a very different sport a year from now.

[dd74]

It's news. I just don't know why it's news.

[rounder]

Cyclingnews contacted Lance Armstrong's attorney who released this statement.

"Tyler Hamilton just duped the CBS Evening News, 60 Minutes and Scott Pelley all in one fell swoop. Hamilton is actively seeking to make money by writing a book, and now he has completely changed the story he has always told before so that he could get himself on 60 Minutes and increase his chances with publishers. But greed and a hunger for publicity cannot change the facts: Lance Armstrong is the most tested athlete in the history of sports: He has passed nearly 500 tests over twenty years of competition."

There are more and more riders coming forward who may have been caught testing positive once or twice, but who also passed hundreds of doping tests--just like Armstrong.

As they do so, the same defense trotted out by Lance's lawyers and PR flacks--that he passed hundreds of tests--or that he "never tested positive"--just gets more and more lame.

When I was a child my grandparents lived in the Arkansas River delta and I would often go fishing with my grandfather. On one such trip I was walking along the shore and saw a large fish laying on the bank. I thought it was still alive because it seemed to be writhing. But when I poked it with a stick I saw the real reason it was moving. The skin tore and I realized the insides were a seething mass of maggots.

I don't think this investigation is a waste of money because it has evolved beyond Armstrong to bring more light to the true extent of doping and how pro cycling for a long time has been a mere normal looking shell over a truly rotten interior, just like that fish. Now cycling is being poked with a stick and the maggots are being exposed.

BBD

I think it is a lot like other sports (baseball!!). I do not know but imagine that it was so prevalent that everyone did it because that is the way it was. People ask me what i think...should Barry Bonds be entered into the hall of fame. If it were to me, I would not allow Barry Bonds, Mark McGuire, Roger Clemons, Lance Armstrong or Tyler Hamilton into the Hall of Fame unless they were able to produce a clean bill of health. I would let Pete Rose in before any of them.

[1happygirl]

LA rebuttal: www.facts4lance.com

IDK, telling the truth appars to 'hurt' no one but the person telling the truth. It doesn't appear it has cleaned up any sport so far.

You know, my history with Lance. I don't like him. That said, if they all doped, then it was an equal playing field. Can the major tours be run without drugs? IDK.

[san]

oh man, the interview on 60 minutes should be interesting.

[Mark McM]

All of them will say whatever they need to say to protect their best interests at the time.

Maybe. But since he just testified before a federal grand jury, Hamilton's best interest at this time just might be avoiding prison on charges of lying to a federal grand jury. Afterall, Marion Jones served time in federal prison when committing perjury (regarding her drug use) in her testimony to federal investigators. (And that was a case that was also a Novitsky investigation.)

[fourflys]

if you've ever lived with a secret or are now, then you know what that secret can make you do and how long it might take you to come clean... unless you've been down that road, I don't think you can really talk...

I'm glad Tyler finally decided to come clean, it's good for the conscience and the soul...

You know, Jesus forgives us all for our sins.... it's a shame we can't do the same for others...

[BumbleBeeDave]

LA rebuttal: www.facts4lance.com

IDK, telling the truth appars to 'hurt' no one but the person telling the truth. It doesn't appear it has cleaned up any sport so far.

You know, my history with Lance. I don't like him. That said, if they all doped, then it was an equal playing field. Can the major tours be run without drugs? IDK.

. . . paying some real pros to come up with stuff like this. I wonder why?

BBD

[KJMUNC]

Maybe. But since he just testified before a federal grand jury, Hamilton's best interest at this time just might be avoiding prison on charges of lying to a federal grand jury.

Not that lying to before a Federal Grand Jury or going to jail is a good thing, but taking money from people for a cause like his total bull$hit "Believe Tyler" campaign is 1,000x worse in my book.

[1happygirl]

Not that lying to before a Federal Grand Jury or going to jail is a good thing, but taking money from people for a cause like his total bull$hit "Believe Tyler" campaign is 1,000x worse in my book.
Yep, how many times I almost hit enter on my keyboard to donate to the FF fund and take time to go see him in person. Glad I stayed home with my money that day.

What I find disturbing is the 'rock throwers'. Everytime someone 'comes clean' the other members of the peloton have to comment. Things like, "so sad for him, hope he finds peace etc." Hypocrits, like they are not doing the same thing and years later frequently they also "confess". Hope they then find peace.
Better to remain silent. If you were really offering sincere hopes of the 'disgraced' person getting their life together, offer that to them on the phone.

[Louis]

Poor Tugboat must be rolling over in his grave.

[TomP]

To me Tyler is as bad, or worse than Floyd. He has no credibility and lost my respect long ago. Really all there is, are a bunch of allegations. Maybe Lance doped, maybe not, but there is still no proof.

[don compton]

I think it is a lot like other sports (baseball!!). I do not know but imagine that it was so prevalent that everyone did it because that is the way it was. People ask me what i think...should Barry Bonds be entered into the hall of fame. If it were to me, I would not allow Barry Bonds, Mark McGuire, Roger Clemons, Lance Armstrong or Tyler Hamilton into the Hall of Fame unless they were able to produce a clean bill of health. I would let Pete Rose in before any of them.
What makes you think that Pete Rose was clean?

[Charles M]

It will be interesting to see if Tyler can have Drugs and Lance pay off all over again.

[WickedWheels]

Where is SteveP when you need him. He used to coach Tyler.

I'm not a Lance fan, but if everyone was doing it then he still rocked it for 7 years against a level playing field.

[whforrest]

this is just going to get uglier for lance. there are so many testimonials stating witness to the use of drugs here, from many different sources.

i would be interested to hear what hincapie had to say about doping during his deposition/testimony under oath.

i'm really 50/50 on liking/disliking lance. i sold all my armstrong collectibles about 5 years ago when i realized he was doping. not too hard to figure that one out, just connect the dots. i do have to thank him for over 2 decades of entertainment. but i have always agreed more with lemond. (although i think he could have certain communications more effectively) but at the time lemond was facing goliath when challenging armstrong.

i still feel sadness for floyd and tyler, talk about falling from grace and watching these men lose almost everything. i'm not sorry for them, but it truly is a tragedy.

nor do i think watching the potential demise of armstrong would be enjoyable.

it's almost like a lose/lose, but truth is still most important.

[tuxbailey]

I watch the tour for the bikes and the colorful jerseys :)

[Louis]

I watch the tour for the bikes and the colorful jerseys :)

And the podium girls.

[onekgguy]

if you've ever lived with a secret or are now, then you know what that secret can make you do and how long it might take you to come clean... unless you've been down that road, I don't think you can really talk...

I'm glad Tyler finally decided to come clean, it's good for the conscience and the soul...

You know, Jesus forgives us all for our sins.... it's a shame we can't do the same for others...

End of discussion for me...nicely said.

Kevin g

[mtnbke]

It is not too late to pick up "I believe Tyler" items from CafePress:

http://www.cafepress.com/believetyler

The funny thing is that they have a WHOLE new meaning now. I mean if someone shows up wearing one of those to cheer on their favorite cyclist/team that sends a different message now doesn't it.

LA is an insufferable a$$, and I for one long ago grew tired of his coached statements. Sure Dr. Ferrari and LA will go down as a great team, they won so many Tours.

However, I'll root for Jonathan Vaughters's squad any day. LA is disingenuous, anyone riding for Jonathan is a "tested athlete."

[slowgoing]

The prosecutor better have more evidence than just statements made by admitted liars and cheaters who have little to lose and everything to gain by testifying against LA. A good cross examiner will crucify these witnesses.

[Elefantino]

From Flandis:

"I hope he finds what he's looking for and what he says in the letter. I wish him the best. He's a person that got caught in a bad situation and although it can be hard for people to understand from the outside, I hope they try. That's all you can ask for really."

Forgiveness is always easier to ask for than permission, but there it is.

[Climb01742]

compassion is rarely a wasted emotion. anger almost always is. for whatever reason, i feel for tyler.

[Grant McLean]

The prosecutor better have more evidence than just statements made by admitted liars and cheaters who have little to lose and everything to gain by testifying against LA. A good cross examiner will crucify these witnesses.

The lies about doping are part of the conspiracy, and makes the former US Postal
rider's story more credible not less. The argument is that they lied for the
same reason that Lance is lying now. If there were no lies, there would be
no conspiracy of doping. The foundation of the deception that is/was doping is
that nobody would speak the truth. The fact they lied is just more proof they
were all part of the conspiracy to cover up systematic doping.

There will be real evidence. Somewhere is a money trail, and documentation
about the where the drugs came from. Follow the money.

-g

[firerescuefin]

The prosecutor better have more evidence than just statements made by admitted liars and cheaters who have little to lose and everything to gain by testifying against LA. A good cross examiner will crucify these witnesses.

Arguments like this reek of desperation. Vaughters/Andreu/Landis/Hamilton/etc....they're all agenda driven liars?

I hope Hincapie comes out on the right side of this (having told the truth) or you will see a Bonds/Greg Anderson type witchhunt....and no one wants that.

[rugbysecondrow]

Who cares? Cycling is not a sport in the US but rather an activity, an annoyance accepted by most citizens. Cycling is what people do to stay in shape for real sports.

The vast majority don't care so the media doesn't care. Lance is the most accomplished American cyclist ever and sports websites and sports talk shows mention these stories more out of obligation than care. People might think Lance cheated but the truth is that they just don't care at all and they have already come to grips with what that means. He was our guy, he is still our guy. Period. Folks on cycling forums can talk all they want, the truth is that cycling falls somewhere below the WNBA and above badminton in American sports.

Again, it just does not matter one bit.

[Climb01742]

i can understand why some folks say "who cares? what does it matter?" but to me it matters, because the truth matters, and because sports should be (and most often is) one place in life where the field is level and victory goes to the best. cheaters aren't athletes. they're businesspeople.

[weiwentg]

i can understand why some folks say "who cares? what does it matter?" but to me it matters, because the truth matters, and because sports should be (and most often is) one place in life where the field is level and victory goes to the best. cheaters aren't athletes. they're businesspeople.

actually, my suspicion is that during the LA years, the field was more or less level among the top athletes. i.e., they were all doping. however, the truth does matter. using drugs is against the rules. Tyler, Floyd and Frankie denied for so long and then confessed. I want to know whether or not top athletes are using drugs. if we decide that we can't do three 21-day grand tours plus numerous other races every year without doping these people up to the gills, then we can either shorten the races and live with it, or let them all engage in controlled doping and live with it. either way, we deserve to know.

[cmg]

Tyler has failed too many drug tests to be deemed credible. to little to late. does it take chemical additives to finish a 21 stage, 2200 miles race? to race in the peleton for a season? always has, always will.

[rugbysecondrow]

i can understand why some folks say "who cares? what does it matter?" but to me it matters, because the truth matters, and because sports should be (and most often is) one place in life where the field is level and victory goes to the best. cheaters aren't athletes. they're businesspeople.

On point, yes, the truth is important. In reality, it is a sport so few people care about that most people have no idea who Tyler Hamilton is. That is why it doesn't matter. That is why, even if there was a photo of lance with the needle in his arm, people would still shrug their shoulders. I think most accept him, warts and all. They respect HIM more than the sport.

As an aside, the more info that comes out, the more it seems there was a level playing field...they were all cheating.

[rugbysecondrow]

actually, my suspicion is that during the LA years, the field was more or less level among the top athletes. i.e., they were all doping. however, the truth does matter. using drugs is against the rules. Tyler, Floyd and Frankie denied for so long and then confessed. I want to know whether or not top athletes are using drugs. if we decide that we can't do three 21-day grand tours plus numerous other races every year without doping these people up to the gills, then we can either shorten the races and live with it, or let them all engage in controlled doping and live with it. either way, we deserve to know.

You say WE and TOP ATHLETES...the "we" is such a small percentage of the population, not enough to move the needle. As for the "top athlete", only the WE think they are top athletes, the rest just think they ride bikes.

Americans don't care about cycling, which means they don't care about those who cheat at cycling.

[BumbleBeeDave]

Arguments like this reek of desperation. Vaughters/Andreu/Landis/Hamilton/etc....they're all agenda driven liars?

I hope Hincapie comes out on the right side of this (having told the truth) or you will see a Bonds/Greg Anderson type witchhunt....and no one wants that.

. . . Lance's PR machine has also tried to apply it to many others who have come forward or had disputes with him who are not riders. Anybody who has a beef with Lance for any reason gets the "agenda driven liar" counterattack.

Yes, it's getting old.

BBD

[jpw]

I don't know Hamilton, but I'm sure he's not stupid and has a good lawyer (he'll need one). No doubt he's timed this statement to coincide with his book release (that's smart), and for Armstrong's lawyer to claim the timing of the statement and the book release invalidates the claims he's making is predictable but not legally sustainable.

The rumor has always been that LA failed a drugs test in the TdF (the French lab fridge debate), and later another one that required him to retire in 2005. That yet another failed test is now being claimed (at the Tour du Suisse) should really get some people twitching nervously at the UCI.

The Swedish say that Danes sound like them but as if they are talking with potatoes in their mouths. Someone should buy LA a bag of them because he's sounding more and more like Bjarne Riis every day.

[gemship]

You say WE and TOP ATHLETES...the "we" is such a small percentage of the population, not enough to move the needle. As for the "top athlete", only the WE think they are top athletes, the rest just think they ride bikes.

Americans don't care about cycling, which means they don't care about those who cheat at cycling.



I imagine if posed with the question about dope use to ride most Americans would probably think a pro cyclist needs to be on dope just to cope with the rigors of bike racing. It's a very isolated activity where fit is tantamount yet wedgies are synonymous :o

[gemship]

The prosecutor better have more evidence than just statements made by admitted liars and cheaters who have little to lose and everything to gain by testifying against LA. A good cross examiner will crucify these witnesses.


+1 they don't call it a witch hunt for nothing, something to be said for questioning character and credibility.

[rugbysecondrow]

I imagine if posed with the question about dope use to ride most Americans would probably think a pro cyclist needs to be on dope just to cope with the rigors of bike racing. It's a very isolated activity where fit is tantamount yet wedgies are synonymous :o

Most Americans know so little about cycling that they could not begin to tell you about the rigors of the sport. They just don't care.

Right now, on ESPNs homepage, there are five headlines above the Tyler/Lance story: 2 NBA, 1 Tennis and 1 NHL and 1 NCAA Football. Lance is the most accomplished rider the USA has ever had and it is 6th on the headline list. On the entire homepage, there is a total of 1 story, ONE! Folks don't give a ????. In the USA, this is a non-story.

[Tom]

Remember Ullrich? As he said, being walked to the door: "I never cheated any other rider."

I knew Tyler was lying before. I believe he's telling the truth now.

Which manufactured image are you going to believe?

[fuzzalow]

I believe TH and FL. I think it matters that riders come forward with the truth. I would rather see things as they really are than to cave to knowing indifference about PEDs in the Pro ranks because of what I get out of it is a good show/race. Kinda like pro wrestling or the McGuire/Sosa homerun derby - the numbing masses just want to be pleased and don't care to scratch below the veneer. Fans are happy, money rolls in, don't look behind that curtain.

The riders are just the human capital that get caught between the sanctioning bodies and the various business interests in the sport. IMO the fatal flaw for either TH and FL is they didn't know it took more than watts/kg to supplant LA. These riders only had the physical skills but not the street smarts and business acumen like LA to successfully figurehead the sport and its industries.

As fans of the sport, money is good, to a point. But from the viewpoint of cycling as a sport, the amount of money pulled in could only in time become corrosive and corrupt to the sporting interests even while the commercial side thrived.

Omerta. Don't kill the golden calf. Get while the gettin's good. It's all about the sport until it's time to do the deals.

[William]

Let's say for a moment they all doped. They all cover it up and try to act like they race clean. You live a lie and have to masquerade for the public 24/7. One guy gets caught....he screws up his cycle and tests positive. Of course they are going to deny it. They have been living the lie so long they probably can't believe they've been caught. If you are a domestique, the smart thing to do is probably shut your mouth, take your lumps, and you'll be fined or suspended for a while and then let back in. If you are a star, the denials have to be thrown out for self preservation. But you have to walk a fine line between self preservation and the "good" of the peloton. If your argument has some traction you may be able to beat the wrap. If it doesn't and you keep fighting it, growing the lie, and putting the spotlight on the rest of the peloton, they are going to throw you under the bus. The "good" of the many outweighs the need of the one.

Tyler and Floyd got thrown under the bus. They aren't victims, they were doping as well. They just brought too much scrutiny to the rest of them.

So, you've lived the lie, you've hid they lie, and enjoyed the spoils of the lie. There comes a point when you might even believe the lie. Your livelihood, colleagues, blood, sweat, tears, and years of your life are all invested in that world. So much so that you fight tooth and nail to remain in the world of the lie. You face losing everything. Most people would fight to retain the life that they know.... as wrong as that may seem to those on the outside.

Now their lives as they knew it are ruined. They are scorned by their former colleagues, and they are scorned by the public. They know that the lie continues. And some point in time, maybe even years later, they come to the realization that there is no going back. There is no more reason to continue the lie. It may be like an alcoholic who will never change until they hit rock bottom. They realize that in order to move forward, they have to come clean and stop hiding the lie. They have to let it go and let the chips fall where they may. We know what the riders still living it are going to say. We know what their fans are going to say. But coming clean from a life like that means there are going to be lumps and rocks thrown, it's part of the recovery. Weathering it and continuing to move forward is part of what heals you. Part of the process.

Keep moving forward guys.




William

[rugbysecondrow]

Smart man.

Let's say for a moment they all doped. They all cover it up and try to act like they race clean. You live a lie and have to masquerade for the public 24/7. One guy gets caught....he screws up his cycle and tests positive. Of course they are going to deny it. They have been living the lie so long they probably can't believe they've been caught. If you are a domestique, the smart thing to do is probably shut your mouth, take your lumps, and you'll be fined or suspended for a while and then let back in. If you are a star, the denials have to be thrown out for self preservation. But you have to walk a fine line between self preservation and the "good" of the peloton. If your argument has some traction you may be able to beat the wrap. If it doesn't and you keep fighting it, growing the lie, and putting the spotlight on the rest of the peloton, they are going to throw you under the bus. The "good" of the many outweighs the need of the one.

Tyler and Floyd got thrown under the bus. They aren't victims, they were doping as well. They just brought too much scrutiny to the rest of them.

So, you've lived the lie, you've hid they lie, and enjoyed the spoils of the lie. There comes a point when you might even believe the lie. Your livelihood, colleagues, blood, sweat, tears, and years of your life are all invested in that world. So much so that you fight tooth and nail to remain in the world of the lie. You face losing everything. Most people would fight to retain the life that they know.... as wrong as that may seem to those on the outside.

Now their lives as they knew it are ruined. They are scorned by their former colleagues, and they are scorned by the public. They know that the lie continues. And some point in time, maybe even years later, they come to the realization that there is no going back. There is no more reason to continue the lie. It may be like an alcoholic who will never change until they hit rock bottom. They realize that in order to move forward, they have to come clean and stop hiding the lie. They have to let it go and let the chips fall where they may. We know what the riders still living it are going to say. We know what their fans are going to say. But coming clean from a life like that means there are going to be lumps and rocks thrown, it's part of the recovery. Weathering it and continuing to move forward is part of what heals you. Part of the process.

Keep moving forward guys.




William

[FlashUNC]

I really don't care Lance doped. I don't care any of them doped. Its been in the sport since the first time a guy swung a leg over a top tube, and its going to be there long after we're all gone.

The problem I have with it -- and with the various admissions we're seeing -- is the lying about it. I'll give Tyler credit for owning up to it, but its also in some ways too late in my mind.

I don't think Lance doping invalidates his 7 Tour wins, it merely kept up with the rest of the bunch in arguably the most doped peloton since Tom Simpson's era.

But to continually lie about it rather than chalk it up to it being a mistake due to the pressures of the times, and the desire to get back to the top level of competitive cycling, is maddening to me. That being said, Lance has constructed his entire public persona around this "I did it clean" mantra that he can't exactly put the horse back in the barn.

So I just assume they all cheat at this point.

[Gummee]

I'm tired of the hoopla.

My thoughts on the matter: either he didn't do it and beat em or he DID do it and he beat em at their own game.

Either way, he still won.

I'm curious to know how long it'll take team doctors to come up with transdermal patches for things now that there seems to be a 'no needles' policy coming.

M

[MarleyMon]

...

I'm curious to know how long it'll take team doctors to come up with transdermal patches for things now that there seems to be a 'no needles' policy coming.

M
what are they going to do - take a blood bath?

In my opinion, it was not "everyone's doing it" - LA was way ahead of the curve with his program - way ahead. Those wins were bought and paid for in a couple different ways and the truth will out.

[fourflys]

well said!

Let's say for a moment they all doped. They all cover it up and try to act like they race clean. You live a lie and have to masquerade for the public 24/7. One guy gets caught....he screws up his cycle and tests positive. Of course they are going to deny it. They have been living the lie so long they probably can't believe they've been caught. If you are a domestique, the smart thing to do is probably shut your mouth, take your lumps, and you'll be fined or suspended for a while and then let back in. If you are a star, the denials have to be thrown out for self preservation. But you have to walk a fine line between self preservation and the "good" of the peloton. If your argument has some traction you may be able to beat the wrap. If it doesn't and you keep fighting it, growing the lie, and putting the spotlight on the rest of the peloton, they are going to throw you under the bus. The "good" of the many outweighs the need of the one.

Tyler and Floyd got thrown under the bus. They aren't victims, they were doping as well. They just brought too much scrutiny to the rest of them.

So, you've lived the lie, you've hid they lie, and enjoyed the spoils of the lie. There comes a point when you might even believe the lie. Your livelihood, colleagues, blood, sweat, tears, and years of your life are all invested in that world. So much so that you fight tooth and nail to remain in the world of the lie. You face losing everything. Most people would fight to retain the life that they know.... as wrong as that may seem to those on the outside.

Now their lives as they knew it are ruined. They are scorned by their former colleagues, and they are scorned by the public. They know that the lie continues. And some point in time, maybe even years later, they come to the realization that there is no going back. There is no more reason to continue the lie. It may be like an alcoholic who will never change until they hit rock bottom. They realize that in order to move forward, they have to come clean and stop hiding the lie. They have to let it go and let the chips fall where they may. We know what the riders still living it are going to say. We know what their fans are going to say. But coming clean from a life like that means there are going to be lumps and rocks thrown, it's part of the recovery. Weathering it and continuing to move forward is part of what heals you. Part of the process.

Keep moving forward guys.




William

[Dekonick]

Let's say for a moment they all doped. They all cover it up and try to act like they race clean. You live a lie and have to masquerade for the public 24/7. One guy gets caught....he screws up his cycle and tests positive. Of course they are going to deny it. They have been living the lie so long they probably can't believe they've been caught. If you are a domestique, the smart thing to do is probably shut your mouth, take your lumps, and you'll be fined or suspended for a while and then let back in. If you are a star, the denials have to be thrown out for self preservation. But you have to walk a fine line between self preservation and the "good" of the peloton. If your argument has some traction you may be able to beat the wrap. If it doesn't and you keep fighting it, growing the lie, and putting the spotlight on the rest of the peloton, they are going to throw you under the bus. The "good" of the many outweighs the need of the one.

Tyler and Floyd got thrown under the bus. They aren't victims, they were doping as well. They just brought too much scrutiny to the rest of them.

So, you've lived the lie, you've hid they lie, and enjoyed the spoils of the lie. There comes a point when you might even believe the lie. Your livelihood, colleagues, blood, sweat, tears, and years of your life are all invested in that world. So much so that you fight tooth and nail to remain in the world of the lie. You face losing everything. Most people would fight to retain the life that they know.... as wrong as that may seem to those on the outside.

Now their lives as they knew it are ruined. They are scorned by their former colleagues, and they are scorned by the public. They know that the lie continues. And some point in time, maybe even years later, they come to the realization that there is no going back. There is no more reason to continue the lie. It may be like an alcoholic who will never change until they hit rock bottom. They realize that in order to move forward, they have to come clean and stop hiding the lie. They have to let it go and let the chips fall where they may. We know what the riders still living it are going to say. We know what their fans are going to say. But coming clean from a life like that means there are going to be lumps and rocks thrown, it's part of the recovery. Weathering it and continuing to move forward is part of what heals you. Part of the process.

Keep moving forward guys.




William

Very perceptive. I agree.

[Grant McLean]

If Lance admits what he did, I'm prepared to listen, most people can forgive,
but not until he says what he did.

-g

[achurch]

what are they going to do - take a blood bath?

In my opinion, it was not "everyone's doing it" - LA was way ahead of the curve with his program - way ahead. Those wins were bought and paid for in a couple different ways and the truth will out.


+1

Gotta believe Lance's victories are a combination of hard work, elite genetics, and "way ahead of the curve." We'll never know how much of the better doping was a part of his success, but the idea that it was a level playing field is just silly. Illegal doping, by its nature, will not be a level playing field but one that rewards those in a position to benefit from being on the front end of the curve.

[Kevan]

I dunno...but that "deny...deny..deny" seems to be a winning combination.

Least so far.

[Climb01742]

If Lance admits what he did, I'm prepared to listen, most people can forgive,
but not until he says what he did.

-g

:beer:

[oldpotatoe]

I would not be surprised if this brings down the UCI. This may impact a lot more then some retired athletes who rode through the glory days of EPO use juiced to the gills. Could it be through the money trail that they have uncovered a multinational multimillion dollar drug ring supported by a thoroughly corrupt regulating body? Cycling might be a very different sport a year from now.

Sponsored by medical marijuana clinics....remember Tyler was under oath when he testified before the TV gig. He risks hard time in a cell with Bubba if he lied.

[T.J.]

. . . to hit 12,000 forum posts . . .

BRAVO, TYLER.

BBD


Why bravo? Just curious

[Hawker]

I think Lance admitting any wrong-doing like the other guys is waaay more complicated because of the Livestrong foundation, the work it does and the many sponsors, hospitals, doctors and staff the foundation supports and works with. Many have said that even if he is found guilty they will still support his cancer work....but I think the LAF would lose a great deal of influence and support.

He'll deny it forever...or until he is 80. I won't be here.

[torquer]

Tyler was under oath when he testified, but if he lies later, then what? (Not saying he is, but given the track records of everyone involved...)
Hincapie & Och sounded like they were lawyered-up after testifying, but they have more to lose.
Question about Tyler's book deal: any confirmation of that, or just LA's PR folks blowin' smoke?
Edit: I just reread the quote: he's accussed of "looking for" a book deal. But aren't we all?

[bzbvh5]

If Tyler gave back his Olympic Gold Medal and said "I cheated despite what the lawyers say about my tainted B sample". Then I would listen to what he said about USPS doping. Other than that, he is just another person with nothing to lose.

[Black Dog]

By Lance logic: Number of times doping equals number of positive tests. Therefore he has never doped and Tyler has only doped twice.

[Rueda Tropical]

So, you've lived the lie, you've hid they lie, and enjoyed the spoils of the lie. There comes a point when you might even believe the lie.


If you can't do the time don't do the crime. If you enjoyed the upside of cheating now take the consequences of it like a man. You knew going in that getting caught was a possibility.

[Ray]

Wait a minute - someone is claiming pro cyclists doped? Really? Well, I'm shocked, SHOCKED!

Ok, what's next?

-Ray

[Spin71]

If Tyler gave back his Olympic Gold Medal and said "I cheated despite what the lawyers say about my tainted B sample". Then I would listen to what he said about USPS doping. Other than that, he is just another person with nothing to lose.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704816604576335280289868842.html?m od=djemalertNEWS

[fiamme red]

So, you've lived the lie, you've hid they lie, and enjoyed the spoils of the lie. There comes a point when you might even believe the lie. Your livelihood, colleagues, blood, sweat, tears, and years of your life are all invested in that world. So much so that you fight tooth and nail to remain in the world of the lie. You face losing everything. Most people would fight to retain the life that they know.... as wrong as that may seem to those on the outside.

Now their lives as they knew it are ruined. They are scorned by their former colleagues, and they are scorned by the public. They know that the lie continues. And some point in time, maybe even years later, they come to the realization that there is no going back. There is no more reason to continue the lie. It may be like an alcoholic who will never change until they hit rock bottom. They realize that in order to move forward, they have to come clean and stop hiding the lie. They have to let it go and let the chips fall where they may. We know what the riders still living it are going to say. We know what their fans are going to say. But coming clean from a life like that means there are going to be lumps and rocks thrown, it's part of the recovery. Weathering it and continuing to move forward is part of what heals you. Part of the process.Great psychological insight here. Excellent post.

[coylifut]

William and FlasUNC's comments resonate with me.

"...Lance has constructed his entire public persona around this "I did it clean" mantra that he can't exactly put the horse back in the barn."

the argument that what he's done for the fight against cancer justifies his continued denial falls flat on it's face. he beat cancer, won 7 tours, with doped teammates while just about everyone he shared the podium with served doping sanctions, but he's the clean one?

I can look the other way while the liars, dopers, cheaters run each other into the ground, but what about the non athletes that he attacked for telling their stories? He ran over Emma O'Reilly, Mike Anderson and Betsy Andreu. And of course, who could forget what the Postal machine did to Prentice Steffen. They attacked the fact that he's a recovering addict. Once again, no credibility.

The story that Landis, Tyler, Steffen and Betsy Anreu tell makes sense, the continued denials by LA do not.

[rugbysecondrow]

By Lance logic: Number of times doping equals number of positive tests. Therefore he has never doped and Tyler has only doped twice.


I think his logic is PROVE IT. They can't, and haven't. This is not complicated. He has been tested, tested, and tested somemore, regardless of what he was actually doing, he can legitimatly hang his hat on no failed tests. If the test is the indicator, and he did not trigger that indicator, then the onus is on others to prove it.

If you were audited by the IRS, but the audit came back clean. Regardless of what you did or didn't do, you have a clean audit record.

[Black Dog]

I think his logic is PROVE IT. They can't, and haven't. This is not complicated. He has been tested, tested, and tested somemore, regardless of what he was actually doing, he can legitimatly hang his hat on no failed tests. If the test is the indicator, and he did not trigger that indicator, then the onus is on others to prove it.

If you were audited by the IRS, but the audit came back clean. Regardless of what you did or didn't do, you have a clean audit record.

A clean record does not mean that you did not cheat! Cheating is cheating even if you don't get caught.

[veloduffer]

Stepping back to look at the forest, doping in cycling doesn't warrant the attention that should occur in other sports. The amount of money involved in cycling is peanuts compared to the billions in, let's say, NFL football, which is/was rampant with steriods, painkillers and growth hormones. More so, its culture affects even high school and college players, who get involved with these drugs.

Doping in cycling has been going on since Tullio invented the quick release. The majority of the peleton has used dope - so they playing field was level. If they find Lance guilty, who are they going to give the TdF titles to??? They would have to review every single rider/candidate again to find someone clean and make the win unqualified. By default, maybe the TdF winner should be the Lanterne Rouge of each year! :p .

It takes more than dope to take you to the top of a sport - you have to have the genes to start with. Bringing down Lance doesn't help the sport and potentially ruins the good that has come out of the Livestrong Foundation. There's no upside. Cycling and anti-doping agencies should be looking forward to prevent it.

[fiamme red]

if we decide that we can't do three 21-day grand tours plus numerous other races every year without doping these people up to the gills, then we can either shorten the races and live with it, or let them all engage in controlled doping and live with it. either way, we deserve to know.The Tour de France could be raced on a level playing field if no one was doped. Sure, the speeds would be lower, but the racing would be as exciting, if not more so.

Tour riders today are very pampered compared to those from decades ago, when stages were longer (sometimes two stages in one day), and there were no luxury buses or hotels, just barebones travel and accommodations. They doped then too, but in a much more primitive way, mostly amphetamines.

[JMerring]

I think Lance admitting any wrong-doing like the other guys is waaay more complicated because of the Livestrong foundation, the work it does and the many sponsors, hospitals, doctors and staff the foundation supports and works with. Many have said that even if he is found guilty they will still support his cancer work....but I think the LAF would lose a great deal of influence and support.

He'll deny it forever...or until he is 80. I won't be here.

It is also complicated by the fact that he has way more endorsement deals, has made gobs more money, and is currently (likely) sitting on gobs more money. Exposing the lie puts that at risk, and what's more American than protecting your moola?

As for the argument (not yours, hawker) that all were doping and the playing field was therefore level, that's not necessarily true, and perhaps the spoils went to the one with the most resources. It isn't a stretch to suggest that la had more access to more things because of his resources than did some guy on a continental (or even lesser pro tour) team. In that sense, it is possible that even the cheaters got cheated.

[rugbysecondrow]

A clean record does not mean that you did not cheat! Cheating is cheating even if you don't get caught.

You are not arguing the right point. Whether he did or did not cheat is not important. What is important now is what people can prove. The onus is on others to prove Lance DID cheat. He passed the tests put in front of him, tests other guys failed (Tyler included). They better come at him with evidence, hard evidence, not I saw this, I saw that.

Whether folks like it or not, Lance has enough hard proof now for a defense, on record, zero positive results. The burdon is on others to prove all those negatives are invalid. Until accusers or finger pointers have proof, it is just noise.



In that sense, it is possible that even the cheaters got cheated.


No honor amongst thieves.

[merlincustom1]

Anyone know of any leaks/rumors on what Livingston or Hincapie may have told the Feds?

[coylifut]

I think his logic is PROVE IT. They can't, and haven't. This is not complicated. He has been tested, tested, and tested somemore, regardless of what he was actually doing, he can legitimatly hang his hat on no failed tests. If the test is the indicator, and he did not trigger that indicator, then the onus is on others to prove it.

If you were audited by the IRS, but the audit came back clean. Regardless of what you did or didn't do, you have a clean audit record.

his audit was done by the uci. the 99 tour samples may come into play. the protocol for uci's burden of proof may be far different than a court in the US of A.

It doesn't matter if you or I trust the French lab, what matters is the jury trusts the French lab. According to the French lab, he tested positive.

Currently, he has Interpol, US, French and Italian LEAs sharing evidence. A jury may well decide that his teammates stories, EPO in his 99 samples and and large $ wire transfers to preperatories is evidence beyond a reasonable doubt.

[JMerring]

Anyone know of any leaks/rumors on what Livingston or Hincapie may have told the Feds?

pure conjecture, but george strikes me as a nice, decent and (relatively) honest guy, and from his limited public statements, i'd venture to say he told the truth. also, at this point, i'm sure they're all asking themselves the following: "is it really worth risking jail time for him?"

[rphetteplace]

Well I'm sure as hell not going to donate any more money to livestrong if Lance doped! Too bad if he's raised 9 figures of cash for cancer research. I'm not going to donate another dime if he was a doper! Sucks to be anyone with cancer I guess.

ps. I hope someone tells Novitsky's kids that there really isn't a Santa Claus.

[zap]

snip

actually, my suspicion is that during the LA years, the field was more or less level among the top athletes. i.e., they were all doping. however, the truth does matter. using drugs is against the rules.

Kids may have doped but not all doping is equal.

[Pbraun]

It took Tyler years to come clean after lying to friends, family and supporters. He has less than zero credibility and should just keep quiet. He's not doing any public service here.

It's been over a decade since the alleged doping. I suspect it did happen, in fact, hard to believe it didn't, but who cares and why is my tax money being used to finance this useless investigation?

I think Lance is a jerk, but I don't see the point of beating up on him just for the satisfaction or some search for the truth. The truth is that everyone did it, sad to say.

If someone wants to fo after him with their own money, then let them. Just don't waste mine when we have real needs that the money could be used for -- schools, real drug prevention etc.

I'm more concerned with drugs like steroids that are actually being used (misused) by kids.

[gone]

As for the argument (not yours, hawker) that all were doping and the playing field was therefore level, that's not necessarily true, and perhaps the spoils went to the one with the most resources. It isn't a stretch to suggest that la had more access to more things because of his resources than did some guy on a continental (or even lesser pro tour) team. In that sense, it is possible that even the cheaters got cheated.
I've thought about this a bit over the last few years and I'm not sure I agree. Sure, it's the case that some guy on a continental team has less access to the latest in doping technology but he's not Lance's competition anyway. Think about the top guys during LA's 7 wins: Ulrich, Basso, ..., and think about their advantages relative to a middle of the pack continental pro:

Great physiology well suited to cycling - check
Great team that gives them full support - check
Access to the best trainers, coaches, physicians - check
Access to wind tunnels and other test & measurement apparatus - check
Equipment (bikes, helmets, skinsuits, ...) manufactured specifically for them - check
Ability to train in Spain in the winter, reconnoiter the routes, etc - check

Then add (or not, depending on how clean you think they all are): access to the latest pharmaceuticals and doping techniques - check

And you can make a fairly compelling argument that, at least for the people who were really competing against each other, the playing field was pretty level.

[PaulE]

I imagine if posed with the question about dope use to ride most Americans would probably think a pro cyclist needs to be on dope just to cope with the rigors of bike racing. It's a very isolated activity where fit is tantamount yet wedgies are synonymous :o

Most Americans know so little about cycling that they could not begin to tell you about the rigors of the sport. They just don't care.

Right now, on ESPNs homepage, there are five headlines above the Tyler/Lance story: 2 NBA, 1 Tennis and 1 NHL and 1 NCAA Football. Lance is the most accomplished rider the USA has ever had and it is 6th on the headline list. On the entire homepage, there is a total of 1 story, ONE! Folks don't give a ????. In the USA, this is a non-story.

Most Americans think there is nothing to professional bike racing because of the drugs. They could be in the Tour de France if they were the right age, took PEDs and just trained. After all, they already know how to ride a bike. I can't count the number of people who have asked me why I don't enter the Tour when I tell them I rode a century - even though I'm twice the age of the average pro rider.

William and FlasUNC's comments resonate with me.

"...Lance has constructed his entire public persona around this "I did it clean" mantra that he can't exactly put the horse back in the barn."

the argument that what he's done for the fight against cancer justifies his continued denial falls flat on it's face. he beat cancer, won 7 tours, with doped teammates while just about everyone he shared the podium with served doping sanctions, but he's the clean one?

I can look the other way while the liars, dopers, cheaters run each other into the ground, but what about the non athletes that he attacked for telling their stories? He ran over Emma O'Reilly, Mike Anderson and Betsy Andreu. And of course, who could forget what the Postal machine did to Prentice Steffen. They attacked the fact that he's a recovering addict. Once again, no credibility.

The story that Landis, Tyler, Steffen and Betsy Anreu tell makes sense, the continued denials by LA do not.

My issue with Lance is his holier than thou attitude while at the same time he buries everyone who dares to speak out against him. As an amateur conspiracy theorist, I don't think it is coincidental, that Heras, Hamilton, Landis and Contador all had problems after they stopped riding for Lance. It will be interesting to see what happens to the UCI, the Springs and the billionaire boys' club of American bike racing as a result of all of this. And also to see if they expose the whole pharma/medical/money side of all this for everyone to see.

[Ti Designs]

A different perspective:

Let's say you are a very talented junior racer and moving into the senior ranks. You are training 15+ hours/week, intervals, hill repeats, you come home so tired that chewing at dinner is an effort. It's not enough. You go to the OTC (over training center) and you notice there are two levels of riders, and everyone knows why. The decision is then to join the faster group and move up in your racing career or not. Keep in mind that this sport is what has defined you for the past few years, picking "not" means things change for the worse.

I don't know that I made the right decision, I would like to have won a few more races. I know a few racers who made the other decision and they would defend that decision to the bitter end. I have to question who gets cheated here. Is it the fans? It's a form of entertainment, so superhuman performance is what they expect - it's all part of the show. I contend that the ones truly cheated are the ones who made that decision not to cheat.

For what it's worth, national team selection came down to 12 riders at the OTC, 4 of them got caught. There were also 4 coaches a director, an assistant director...

[Climb01742]

II think Lance is a jerk, but I don't see the point of beating up on him just for the satisfaction or some search for the truth. The truth is that everyone did it, sad to say.

isn't a search for the truth worth it, in and of itself? and if the truth is that everyone did it (which is true, i think, certainly at the top of the sport) then why should lance be able to sanctimoniously and richly say he did it clean?

i could live with him saying, "i wanted to win, and because drug use was so wide-spread, to compete at that level, i had to play on that field." that would be honest. he isn't being honest, IMO.

truth is worth a no-holds-barred search, or else what are we?

[Climb01742]

I contend that the ones truly cheated are the ones who made that decision not to cheat.

true dat.

[Gummee]

A clean record does not mean that you did not cheat! Cheating is cheating even if you don't get caught.
You'll note he's never said he hasn't cheated. He's just said he's never tested positive.

Small distinction, but its there.

M

[fiamme red]

You'll note he's never said he hasn't cheated. He's just said he's never tested positive.

Small distinction, but its there.

MLANCE has said on several occasions that he's never doped. Of course, definitions of doping may vary.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/SPORT/08/26/armstrong.lkl/

Lance Armstrong remained steadfast Thursday that he has never used performance-enhancing drugs, and he called a French newspaper's allegations that he used a banned substance in 1999 -- when he won the first of seven Tour de France titles -- "preposterous."

"This thing stinks," Armstrong told CNN's "Larry King Live" in his first television interview since the allegations were made. "I've said it for longer than seven years: I have never doped. I can say it again. But I've said it for seven years; it doesn't help. But the fact of the matter is I haven't (doped)."

Armstrong, a cancer survivor, added: "If you consider my situation: a guy who comes back from arguably, you know, a death sentence, why would I then enter into a sport and dope myself up and risk my life again? That's crazy. I would never do that. No. No way."

[JMerring]

And you can make a fairly compelling argument that, at least for the people who were really competing against each other, the playing field was pretty level.

fair enough, but were they "really competing against each other" because they had access to the same resources, or because they were roughly equally naturally talented? more importantly, would an undoped lance/jan/ivan have beaten an undoped mr. noname? that, to me, is the real question, and for mr. noname, therein lies the rub.

[veloduffer]

isn't a search for the truth worth it, in and of itself? and if the truth is that everyone did it (which is true, i think, certainly at the top of the sport) then why should lance be able to sanctimoniously and richly say he did it clean?

i could live with him saying, "i wanted to win, and because drug use was so wide-spread, to compete at that level, i had to play on that field." that would be honest. he isn't being honest, IMO.

truth is worth a no-holds-barred search, or else what are we?

Finding out the truth should not always be the end all. It requires resources and money, and if the money is scarce, what does finding the truth achieve? Shouldn't it better spent on the way forward, rather than looking back?

If Lance is ever found guilty of doping (most assume so anyhow), it won't disgorge the monies that he's gotten, which is mostly from endorsements. He won't go to jail. So what does all the resources on this witch hunt achieve? It's a bit like the investigation of Clinton. All we found out was that he fooled around with a White House intern and lied about it. Whoop-dee-doo! Politicians are adulterers and lie! Not exactly new news and it hasn't stopped the lying and affairs yet.

If cycling really wanted to stop doping, the best way would be the sponsors to issue an ultimatum that anyone caught doping results in the immediate cessation of the sponsorship and a lifetime ban for the rider. That would result in the immediate collapse of the team. Now the pressure would be on the directors and other riders to ensure that their teammates are clean.

[achurch]

A different perspective:

Let's say you are a very talented junior racer and moving into the senior ranks. You are training 15+ hours/week, intervals, hill repeats, you come home so tired that chewing at dinner is an effort. It's not enough. You go to the OTC (over training center) and you notice there are two levels of riders, and everyone knows why. The decision is then to join the faster group and move up in your racing career or not. Keep in mind that this sport is what has defined you for the past few years, picking "not" means things change for the worse.

I don't know that I made the right decision, I would like to have won a few more races. I know a few racers who made the other decision and they would defend that decision to the bitter end. I have to question who gets cheated here. Is it the fans? It's a form of entertainment, so superhuman performance is what they expect - it's all part of the show. I contend that the ones truly cheated are the ones who made that decision not to cheat.

For what it's worth, national team selection came down to 12 riders at the OTC, 4 of them got caught. There were also 4 coaches a director, an assistant director...

And probably true in most of the other sports as well. Think about the AAA baseball player (or any other borderline pro) who needs a bit more pop in his bat or speed on the basepaths to get to the next level. He has foregone college, been playing pro ball for 8 years, maybe has a wife and kid, and his future paycheck is based on taking drugs... Given the money involved, the amazing decision is the people who give up on their dream/career and start over doing something else, not the ones who dope. But then the ones who dope have to live a lie with all of the aforementioned angst that comes with that life....

It seems to me EVERYONE loses....which is the sad reality of pro sports. Everyone was probably better off when there was less money involved, but the only way that happens is if we stop caring about pro athletes and pro sports so that the money dries up (or at least is scaled back).

OT: Frankly the same argument can probably be made about CEO salaries and the various ways people need to "cheat" to get to the top in the corporate world... Strikes me as all part of the same issue--but not at all clear that there is any good resolution....

[Grant McLean]

LANCE has said on several occasions that he's never doped. Of course, definitions of doping may vary.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/SPORT/08/26/armstrong.lkl/

Lance Armstrong remained steadfast Thursday that he has never used performance-enhancing drugs, and he called a French newspaper's allegations that he used a banned substance in 1999 -- when he won the first of seven Tour de France titles -- "preposterous."

"This thing stinks," Armstrong told CNN's "Larry King Live" in his first television interview since the allegations were made. "I've said it for longer than seven years: I have never doped. I can say it again. But I've said it for seven years; it doesn't help. But the fact of the matter is I haven't (doped)."

Armstrong, a cancer survivor, added: "If you consider my situation: a guy who comes back from arguably, you know, a death sentence, why would I then enter into a sport and dope myself up and risk my life again? That's crazy. I would never do that. No. No way."

I remember watching that Larry King.

It was late in the show, and it actually took some repeated questions
to get Lance to actually phrase it as "i didn't dope". Most of the time
he says he didn't cheat or that he didn't test positive. Does that matter?
I'm not sure. It's interesting language.

What I take away from this whole thing is the psychological costs outweigh
the financial ones for those involved. Pantani is dead. The same thing
could have happened to Floyd. Tyler has had his battles with depression.
Living a lie, and sleeping well at night is only for the truly pathological.

-g

[rugbysecondrow]

isn't a search for the truth worth it, in and of itself? and if the truth is that everyone did it (which is true, i think, certainly at the top of the sport) then why should lance be able to sanctimoniously and richly say he did it clean?

i could live with him saying, "i wanted to win, and because drug use was so wide-spread, to compete at that level, i had to play on that field." that would be honest. he isn't being honest, IMO.

truth is worth a no-holds-barred search, or else what are we?

No, the truth is not worth it in this case. We are not talking about a man falsely imprisoned or on death row wrongly accused. This is bike racing, a sport of questionable value in the USA. in one respect, I do believ sunlight light is the best disinfectant, but is that what we are after? What is being cleansed? Races from a decade ago or today's sport?

It is more retribution and hate than act on behalf of the sport.

[Pbraun]

isn't a search for the truth worth it, in and of itself? and if the truth is that everyone did it (which is true, i think, certainly at the top of the sport) then why should lance be able to sanctimoniously and richly say he did it clean?

i could live with him saying, "i wanted to win, and because drug use was so wide-spread, to compete at that level, i had to play on that field." that would be honest. he isn't being honest, IMO.

truth is worth a no-holds-barred search, or else what are we?

If it didn't cost anything, sure, go for it. But to expend scarce resources in search of a truth that doesn't matter doesn't make sense to me. Yes, Lance-haters will be vindicated, but then let them pay for it.

[Tom]

If it didn't cost anything, sure, go for it. But to expend scarce resources in search of a truth that doesn't matter doesn't make sense to me.

There's never any sense in pursuing a criminal investigation if it costs money to do so, then.

[Mark McM]

If someone wants to fo after him with their own money, then let them. Just don't waste mine when we have real needs that the money could be used for -- schools, real drug prevention etc.

Actually, this is exactly what this case is about. Based on some insider reports, the investigation isn't about whether individual cyclists doped, but about whether federal money were used to fund a systematic doping program by the managers of a cycling team. The US Postal team was funded by a US federal agency, so if some of the sponsorship money was used for the distribution and use of controlled substances (doping), then the team owners defrauded the government of money that could have been used for better legitimate purposes, such as the ones you mention. Since Lance Armstrong was one of the team owners at the time, that would make him liable for some of the fraud.

[Bob Loblaw]

I still think there's a good chance it's a witch hunt. I haven't seen any compelling evidence proving that Lance doped. There have been questions raised, but few credible accusations. Really the biggest question always comes down to "How else could he have been that good?" I ask myself that too, but I don't automatically assume it was because he doped. Maybe I am naive.

I've said it before, but it bears repeating: They hated Merckx in his day too for pretty much the same reasons. He was reviled and vilified by people who were tired of him and mistrusted his dominating the sport. The press treated him mercilessly. Fans assaulted him. He travelled with body guards and faced death threats. He was uninvited to at least one grand tour. And now everyone loves him, acts like they always did.

I predict in ten years we're going to look back on this as the time when American cycling really came of age, recognize Lance's contribution to that, and wonder why we needed so desperately to tear him apart.

BL

[bicycletricycle]

the point of funding the USPS team was advertisement (like all sponsorship), the better the team did the more exposure they got, in that way, doping made the postal services investment in the team even more valuable.

right?

[1centaur]

Yes, the USPS got its money's worth. The technicality of defrauding, if it exists, did not cause damages and is a pretext.

I agree with others that truth at any cost is not an unalloyed good. And truth in this case is sure knowledge by all, a standard that will not be met. Conviction is not sure knowledge, and many people resist the truth. So the truth being purchased with our money is even greater certainty for people who are pretty sure they know the truth anyway, plus pulling the wool off some other eyes. The consequences of this particular truth will be less money for cancer research, among other things. Truth carries a balance sheet with it.

If I were a prosecutor trying to make this case in front of a jury, and I had some shifty-eyed cyclists talking ancient history, plus some money transfer records for doping products (they'll need to find the seller and that might open up interesting avenues in this sport, BTW), I think I would be sure to spend a lot of time on the ways riders beat the tests and how all the convicted dopers in the sport beat tests constantly. If the power of beating the tests is taken away from the defendant, he has not got much to stand on.

LA tweeted yesterday on the ToC "And in news from this century... there's an amazing bike race taking place in California. Thanks for supporting these amazing athletes." I thought that was an interesting choice of words (as in, "hey man, ancient history") as an add-on to beating the test vs. not doping. And yes I remember the Larry King interview and agree that actually making the declarative statement looked like it pained him.

[goonster]

Pantani is dead.
I refuse to believe that Pantani is dead because he doped, or even because he was caught doping.

When he was booted from the Giro after failing a haematocrit test he descended into a spiral of self-pity and paranoia, and his cocaine use escalated, but his addiction was not the result of being a PED-using champion cyclist.

[fourflys]

regarding Tyler's gold medal that was talked about earlier in this thread...

Phil and Paul commented during the ToC earlier today that Tyler already sent his medal back (voluntarily it sounded like) and the IOC is deciding what to do about the title...

sounds like someone who's trying his best to right some wrongs... I know I've been there an that road is no fun... as I said before, I'm not the one to Judge another man's sins... there is someone much higher than me to do that... and he's not on this forum...

[oldguy00]

... there is someone much higher than me to do that... and he's not on this forum...

This guy!

[fourflys]

This guy!

exactly! :beer: as long as Dough Lewellen is around to comment...

[rounder]

I read earlier today that Lance hired a Carl Rove attorney so obviously he is taking all of this seriously. One thing that goes through my mind is...how much difference do the drugs make. Do you go faster or farther, or are you allowed to train harder. When you are going 2,000+ miles in a tour...where do the drugs give you an advantage, especially when others are also doing (presumably the same) drugs.

[bagochips3]

George's turn:

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cycling/news/story?id=6571826

Folks can say Landis and Tyler have no credibility, but what about George?