ST or Ti seat stay for Legend SE?

[RJC]

So, do I go for a 100% ti frame or opt for a carbon seat stay on a new custom Legend SE? Am a 185 pounds 40+ year old non-racer, and enjoy long mountain rides and the odd sprint.

Am new to Ben's World, so please cut me some slack if this is a dumb question.

[Jeff N.]

I'd go for all Ti, but it boils down to personal preference. Jeff N.

[RJC]

Am trying to figure out my preference.

All Ti is more elegant; and no carbon means less/no risk of damage.

But does ST stay offer sharper handling and more comfortable ride?

[93legendti]

I've had 2 Legends one with ST and without and I have an all ti Concours right now. I prefer the ST without question-its more comfortable and it tracks better. I have an Ottrott ST and that's an even better ride. ymmv.

[Jeff N.]

Am trying to figure out my preference.

All Ti is more elegant; and no carbon means less/no risk of damage.

But does ST stay offer sharper handling and more comfortable ride?
It depends on who you talk to, but IMO, there's no discernable difference. And yes, elegance and longevity are a strong argument for all Ti. But if I owned an Ottrott I'd go with a carbon rear stay because it's a mostly carbon frame anyway. Jeff N.

[avalonracing]

Go all Ti. It will ride great, you won't worry about it and if you did something to the carbon you'd kick yourself for not getting the full Ti.

[Jeff N.]

Go all Ti. It will ride great, you won't worry about it and if you did something to the carbon you'd kick yourself for not getting the full Ti.
Agreed.

[bobswire]

TI otherwise get a CDA.

[SEABREEZE]

I've had 2 Legends one with ST and without and I have an all ti Concours right now. I prefer the ST without question-its more comfortable and it tracks better. I have an Ottrott ST and that's an even better ride. ymmv.

I'd go for what 93 said, and has had all bikes you are referring to, with the experience to back up his comments.

I own two Ti's and both have carbon Seat Stays without any issues, look at there age.. I love the ride they give me.

[bfd]

Not sure about the Legend, but on other makes, an all-ti frame is usually *lighter* than a ti/carbon stay frame. Add in the durability issue of ti stays over the carbon and what's not to like? Good Luck!

[goblue]

My Legend SE with carbon seat stays is just about perfect. In the unlikely event you damage the carbon seat stays they can be replaced by Serotta! Plus the blue tint looks amazing in the bright sunshine.

[RJC]

Thanks for all posts. Seems finely balanced. Which I guess is why personal preference is key. After the stiffness of my Colnago C50, I guess any ti frame will feel compliant, even if it's the ti seat stay version. So, for me, perhaps the unmatched longevity and elegance of the all ti version trump the possibility of an even smoother ride on the ST version - unless there really is a point about better tracking on the ST (but I thought all Serottas track great, and that the Legend has better alignment than any other ti frame on the market).

[mgm777]

All ti, all the time.

[jeo99]

I've had 2 Legends one with ST and without and I have an all ti Concours right now. I prefer the ST without question-its more comfortable and it tracks better. I have an Ottrott ST and that's an even better ride. ymmv.

I have a very similar stable and would agree with Adam's opinion. I ride many centuries thru the year and my butt seems to likes the ST stay better over the long run.

:beer:

[jpw]

Well, when riding you can't see the rear end, so it's really a 'feel' and a 'longevity' contemplation.

Feel? Depends on terrain and tire and rim and post and saddle and insert and rear and back and brain.

Longevity? Get Serotta crash protection cover. If it expires you've had seven good years to save up for the repair bill or a replacement frame.

[93legendti]

I have a very similar stable and would agree with Adam's opinion. I ride many centuries thru the year and my butt seems to likes the ST stay better over the long run.

:beer:
We have the worst roads, don't we? :crap:

[Germany_chris]

I vote all Ti

[happycampyer]

The Ottrott SE that I had was the smoothest, quietest bike I've ever ridden. Smoother still than my Moots, and that's saying something because they soak up crappy pavement with aplomb. There's a certain feel of an all ti or all steel bike that is really nice imo. It really depends on what you want. Personally, my choice would be between an all-ti Legend or an Ottrott, but people I know who have Legend ST's love them.

The one thing I have learned is that, no matter how nicely a bike rides, if it doesn't fit it's not worth keeping. The Ottrott was a demo bike that I tried to make fit but was too small for me.

[Jeff N.]

So what's the price for a Legend these days? Do they still have an upcharge for a carbon stay? Jeff N.

[jpw]

The one thing I have learned is that, no matter how nicely a bike rides, if it doesn't fit it's not worth keeping.

The only 'law' of cycling. :)

I was watching the Giro this week and Sean Kelly was doing some commentating. During a quiet period in the action thoughts turned to frames. He compared the frames used when he was a pro to those in use today. His view was that modern carbon frames in small, medium, and large sizes only are better for teams and riders than in his day when riders specified their exact dimensions for builders to make. I was surprised. Then he went on to mention that he's working with Vitus on their new range of carbon frames.

He also said that a lot of pro riders are complaining of soreness and increased fatigue due to the uber stiff carbon frames they are being required to ride. Food for thought.

[oldpotatoe]

Not sure about the Legend, but on other makes, an all-ti frame is usually *lighter* than a ti/carbon stay frame. Add in the durability issue of ti stays over the carbon and what's not to like? Good Luck!

I agree. Ti rides great, lasts forever. I don't think adding carbon to a well made ti frame does anything, IMHO. Samo to well made steel.

[Ahneida Ride]

My vote = all Ti.

[93legendti]

Have any of the "all ti" voters in this thread owned a Legend ST or a Ottrott ST?

[akelman]

I've owned an all-Ti Ottrott and an Ottrott with ST stays. The all-Ti was, without any doubt, less stiff. It seemed, for that reason I expect, more comfortable on longer rides. I say "seemed" because I'm always surprised that even though my ST Ottrott is so incredibly stiff, I get to the end of rides and feel relatively good (I'm an old man, so I never feel great, but that's not the frame's fault). At the same time, the ST Ottrott is a better descending bike than the all-Ti Ottrott (or than my all-Ti Moots). The rear wheel stays planted to the ground MUCH more reliably. Anyway, I miss my all-Ti Ottrott. It was a great bike and incredibly comfortable. Actually, I suppose it was more comfortable than the ST Ottrott, but the latter doesn't beat me up any more than the former did, so I'm not sure it's that big a deal. And the ST Ottrott does perform better for sure.

Is the increased performance worth the extra risk of problems attendant to having the carbon stays? I don't really know, because I don't know how much risk there is. In other words, assessing that kind of risk/reward choice is very hard without knowing the data: how often there are problems with the ST stays. Still, I know of very few people who have had any problems at all. And when problems have arisen, they've been comparatively minor. That's not to say that nobody has ever experienced catastrophic failure in their rear end (heh), just that I don't know of such failures.

I will also say this: Ottrotts are absolutely fantastic bikes, hugely underrated in my view. As are Legends. I'd be happy to have either one as my only bike (blasphemy!). And I'd probably get an all-Ti Legend (because I like the timeless aesthetics and relative minimalism of an all-Ti bike -- which is why I bought the Moots, actually) and an ST Ottrott (because I think the ST stays don't look misplaced on a bike with carbon tubes in the main triangle, and because I love the performance). But that's just me. Oh, I should probably mention that I've owned two all-Ti Legends through the years but never one with ST stays, so I don't feel at all qualified to comment on their relative merits.

[Bradford]

There seems to be some speculation about increased risk of carbon stays. A few years ago I asked Ben about this and his response was that they had 0 failures. Are you all just speculating or is the perception of increase risk (or decreased reliability) based on real data?

I have the ST stays and I love the ride of my Legend. I do think that all ti looks better and suspect the all ti group is driven as much by that as anything else.

[avalonracing]

I wouldn't worry about a failure due to manufacturing defects. What I would be concerned about is the small mishaps that I've seen blow carbon frames apart that wouldn't even have scratched or dented a good Ti frame.

[Jeff N.]

Have any of the "all ti" voters in this thread owned a Legend ST or a Ottrott ST?I own a Bill Holland Isogrid with a carbon rear stay, which is pretty much the same thing as an Ottrott...with some refinements. Jeff N.

[Pete Serotta]

The Serotta Frame has a life time warranty against defects....so the longevity is not a critical decision

Looks - - which configuration puts a smile on your face when you look at the frame (that is important)

Weight, they are close and it also depends on if painted or not ti or carbon than they are close (Paint does weigh).. ST is a little lighter than ti if both are natural

Weight not an important difference for it is minor weight difference

Roads you are riding....on rough ny or calif roads the ST is a little smoother for it absorbs (but so does the lower tire pressure and wider tire)

Over the years I have had both, ST can be a little smoother.

If you are close to RALEIGH, SARATOGA, PARKRIDGE NJ we can let you try one ,,,,PETE

[xjoex]

All Ti! That way your frame is totally bombproof and light.

But that is just me and I love the look of full Ti frames.


-Joe

[jeo99]

I own a Bill Holland Isogrid with a carbon rear stay, which is pretty much the same thing as an Ottrott...with some refinements. Jeff N.

Jeff,
What are the refinements you mention? Is it Isogrid or Exogrid? Does the Holland have the pivot bearing in the rear stay? Just curious as little info exists on his frames and of course he has no website.

:beer:

[jeo99]

Roads you are riding....on rough ny or calif roads the ST is a little smoother for it absorbs (but so does the lower tire pressure and wider tire)

Over the years I have had both, ST can be a little smoother.


Pete,
The roads in NY and California are butter compared to Michigan! The ST was made for Michigan roadways! I had a Rock Shox Ruby on my Colorado II for many years.

:beer:

[Pete Serotta]

Have been to St Louis and it is bad roads.....NC is not as good as it has been over the years but it has the three I mentioned beat BUT I do like the summers in the North East and most anytime in CALIF. July and August in the south can be HOT unless you are in the mountains


Pete,
The roads in NY and California are butter compared to Michigan! The ST was made for Michigan roadways! I had a Rock Shox Ruby on my Colorado II for many years.

:beer:

[rugbysecondrow]

So, do I go for a 100% ti frame or opt for a carbon seat stay on a new custom Legend SE? Am a 185 pounds 40+ year old non-racer, and enjoy long mountain rides and the odd sprint.

Am new to Ben's World, so please cut me some slack if this is a dumb question.


Go with the full TI, but I would have them add couplers. Couplers will make that bike the BOMB as well as make it perfect for travel. The TI looks clean and mean as well.

Enjoy!

[mgm777]

I have two all ti bikes and both track very well and ride smoothly, according to me. I don't have any experience on the ST version, so, as a result, I don't have a qualified, authoritative, credible opinion on that. However, as anecdotal evidence, I offer the following...I have never experienced less-than-optimal "tracking" on my all ti Legend, while bombing down 15 mile descents in the Rocky Mountains. I suppose, if I had two identical Legends, one all Ti and the other ST, I could probably discern a difference after taking each one on a long test ride. I bet the difference in rides is subtle. However, after riding two all ti rides, now for several years, I can tell you unequivocally, I don't long for an ST. Tracking is rock solid on both bikes and I can adjust the smoothness factor with tire pressure. Personally, I like the clean lines of an all ti bike. Then again, I like my coffee black. Go with whatever grabs you at the moment, ST or all ti, you can't make a bad choice. Both will serve you well.

[93legendti]

I own a Bill Holland Isogrid with a carbon rear stay, which is pretty much the same thing as an Ottrott...with some refinements. Jeff N.
The ST pivots. Does the Holland have a pivot at the rear dropout?

[SEABREEZE]

Many are saying all ti because of longevity. Prove it to me

Show me some threads about there carbon Serotta seat stays crapping out on them..

JEO, 93, Pete, and myself agree the carbon Seat Stays are more comfortable.

Then there was a comment about well factor in tires, seat tube etc etc, all being equal for all ti vs carbon, its still the carbon.

Pete seen your post about the HSG Comp. Which one is in your sights the race or performance version. Tell us why you like this one so much...

[mgd]

full ti. tuned spring. like a quiet bell.

[mgm777]

Many are saying all ti because of longevity. Prove it to me

Show me some threads about there carbon Serotta seat stays crapping out on them..

JEO, 93, Pete, and myself agree the carbon Seat Stays are more comfortable.

Then there was a comment about well factor in tires, seat tube etc etc, all being equal for all ti vs carbon, its still the carbon.

Pete seen your post about the HSG Comp. Which one is in your sights the race or performance version. Tell us why you like this one so much...


Many are saying the ST is smoother. Prove it to me. :rolleyes:

[dave thompson]

So, do I go for a 100% ti frame or opt for a carbon seat stay on a new custom Legend SE? Am a 185 pounds 40+ year old non-racer, and enjoy long mountain rides and the odd sprint.

Am new to Ben's World, so please cut me some slack if this is a dumb question.
I have 15 pounds on you and seem to enjoy the same type of riding you do. I've had both styles of Legends and if I were to buy another, it would have the carbon rear. Both for the ride and for the esthetics.

My .02 Pesos.

[pdmtong]

My Ottrott ST is smooth , so smooth.

Slightly OT I also have SSR with carbon rear...one of the few. IF told me that folks have not embraced the carbon rear despite it being lighter simply becasue when they want a metal bike, they want an ALL METAL bike. so figure that into your decisoning

[rugbysecondrow]

Tastes great!

Less filling!

Tastes great!

Less filling!

[mgm777]

+1. Too funny.

[Jeff N.]

Jeff,
What are the refinements you mention? Is it Isogrid or Exogrid? Does the Holland have the pivot bearing in the rear stay? Just curious as little info exists on his frames and of course he has no website.

:beer:ISOGRID (I own an Exogrid as well).
1. Seamless transition between carbon tubes and Ti "lugs".
2. All carbon main tubes, including seat tube.
3. Internal rear brake cable routing.
4. Joe Bell paint.
5. Isogrid technology.
6. No needless pivot bearings.
7. Derailleur cable barrel bosses on head-tube machined for precise "click" adjustments.
8. Precision Holland double-pass welds.

[Pete Serotta]

Many are saying the ST is smoother. Prove it to me. :rolleyes:
You are welcome to try mine

Pete

[jeo99]

You are welcome to try mine

Pete
If Pete's bike is not big enough you can try mine. In-fact I have a full Ti as well with the exact stiffness. You could compare with both immediately. Or you can just ask my butt as he is the one with experience.(just messing with ya LOL)
I do like the aesthetics of the Legend Ti but the ST is smoother.

:beer:

[Louis]

Have been to St Louis and it is bad roads.....

Hey, that's where I live!!!

Actually, it depends on exactly where you're talking about. I'm not sure where Pete rode (BECAUSE HE DID NOT LET ME KNOW THAT HE WAS GOING TO BE IN TOWN, SO i WAS NOT ABLE TO INVITE HIM OUT TO RIDE WHERE IT'S NICE) but, except for two shortish (1 mile each) chip & seal sections, all of the roads I ride are very good. That's probably quite a bit west of where Pete rode.

Louis

[radsmd]

I'd go for the full Ti definitely. It will never be out of fashion.

[SEABREEZE]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Serotta_Pete
You are welcome to try mine

Pete


If Pete's bike is not big enough you can try mine. In-fact I have a full Ti as well with the exact stiffness. You could compare with both immediately. Or you can just ask my butt as he is the one with experience.(just messing with ya LOL)
I do like the aesthetics of the Legend Ti but the ST is smoother.


Mine too
Seabreeze

[93legendti]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Serotta_Pete
You are welcome to try mine

Pete


If Pete's bike is not big enough you can try mine. In-fact I have a full Ti as well with the exact stiffness. You could compare with both immediately. Or you can just ask my butt as he is the one with experience.(just messing with ya LOL)
I do like the aesthetics of the Legend Ti but the ST is smoother.


Mine too
Seabreeze
I agree, that's why I snapped up 97CSi's 2001 Concours with level top tube and ti stays. My Ottrott St is still my 1rst choice to ride. Tied with that is my Kirk JK Special Terraplane.

[bumknees]

I'm also debating between carbon or ti seat stays, but for a Holland Exogrid. Prob will go for ti, but still on the fence...

[bobswire]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Serotta_Pete
You are welcome to try mine

Pete


If Pete's bike is not big enough you can try mine. In-fact I have a full Ti as well with the exact stiffness. You could compare with both immediately. Or you can just ask my butt as he is the one with experience.(just messing with ya LOL)
I do like the aesthetics of the Legend Ti but the ST is smoother.


Mine too
Seabreeze

Wow, how cool is this. Do I have to pay shipping if you send it to me to try?

Thanks :beer:

[zap]

Is Serotta still using those silly bearings in the st or is it properly bolted to the drop out?

[mgm777]

Can you still buy an all Ti Legend? I searched on the web site and it appears that the Legend is now offered only with the Carbon stays.

[bobswire]

Can you still buy an all Ti Legend? I searched on the web site and it appears that the Legend is now offered only with the Carbon stays.

Yes you can. http://www.serotta.com/Bikes/Road/LegendSE/ go to specs.

Tubing
Only US sourced, seamless titanium get to become Serotta C4Ti Triple butted titanium. 3Al/2.5V titanium tubes are produced in-house to order in a wide selection of diameters while triple butting creates the lightest Ti tube set available without sacrificing strength. Manufactured-to-order tubes provide the ultimate in rider-specific performance benefits.

Stay
Serotta Composites ST Carbon with Titanium option

[jeo99]

Wow, how cool is this. Do I have to pay shipping if you send it to me to try?

Thanks :beer:

BELOW

:crap:

[jeo99]

Wow, how cool is this. Do I have to pay shipping if you send it to me to try?

Thanks :beer:

Actually, Michigan needs the revenue and it is a great vacation/tourist attraction. So you will need to come here. However, I can offer a free bed! Additionally, we have a bicycle oval track to use and a closed road race course. The closed course has hills chicanes and straight aways that our club trains on twice a week.

:) :)

[RJC]

Game over: have committed to the Ti seat stays. Thanks to all who posted in response to my original question. For what it's worth, here are my reasons:

1. As one of you forumites put it: people who want a metal frame likely want an all metal frame, especially if that metal is Ti. Elegance, materials integrity and longevity are all key factors.
2. Any ST-related advantages in tracking and ride quality are likely to be marginal, and largely lost on me as a non-racing fortysomething occasional century rider.
3. I have spoken to people who have an ST but wish in retrospect that they had opted for all Ti version. I have not spoken to anyone who regretted having opted for the all Ti version over the ST.

So in the end it was easy for me. But I agree with the very first person who posted in response to my question: there's no objectively correct answer; it's just a matter of personal preference.

[mgm777]

Game over: have committed to the Ti seat stays. Thanks to all who posted in response to my original question. For what it's worth, here are my reasons:

1. As one of you forumites put it: people who want a metal frame likely want an all metal frame, especially if that metal is Ti. Elegance, materials integrity and longevity are all key factors.
2. Any ST-related advantages in tracking and ride quality are likely to be marginal, and largely lost on me as a non-racing fortysomething occasional century rider.
3. I have spoken to people who have an ST but wish in retrospect that they had opted for all Ti version. I have not spoken to anyone who regretted having opted for the all Ti version over the ST.

So in the end it was easy for me. But I agree with the very first person who posted in response to my question: there's no objectively correct answer; it's just a matter of personal preference.


Congratulations RJC! Solid reasoning. I expect you will absolutely love your new ride.

[RJC]

Thanks to mgm777.
So, now for the next question: horizontal or sloping top tube? mgm777's Legend appears to have a slightly sloping top tube: what is the optimum angle?

[Louis]

what is the optimum angle?

IMO 0.0* unless there is a reason to do otherwise (standover or length of available ST)

[SEABREEZE]

Sloping


http://lh5.ggpht.com/_BsxClt3TmzM/Sza_9uz8USI/AAAAAAAAADg/k1UIBUx6XJ4/s720/IMG_0374.JPG

[jeo99]

Congratulations RJC! Solid reasoning. I expect you will absolutely love your new ride.
I agree and congradulations! But the truth in the pudding is asking your butt after a century on each. Your butt does not reason it is just quick to respond! Wow, that almost sounds profound.

:beer:

[akelman]

Level tt unless, as Louis said, there's a reason for the slope.

[dave thompson]

Level tt unless, as Louis said, there's a reason for the slope.
......and the reason could be: "I like the way it looks".

[Louis]

......and the reason could be: "I like the way it looks".

True, but that's not a good reason. That's fashion.

Besides, everyone knows that a horizontal TT looks better anyway. :)

[akelman]

......and the reason could be: "I like the way it looks".

My point was don't choose a sloper by default. Make sure there's a reason, in other words. And from where I sit, aesthetics are a perfectly good reason.

[wooly]

Sloping


http://lh5.ggpht.com/_BsxClt3TmzM/Sza_9uz8USI/AAAAAAAAADg/k1UIBUx6XJ4/s720/IMG_0374.JPG

What a great looking rig. I love the paint but the whole package really is a stunner. Nice work

[soulspinner]

All ti, all the time.


really classy :beer:

























































































































great looking bike, right down to the red in the pedals....... :beer:













Great looking bike. Eve

[rugbysecondrow]

I would wait and see what the fit process determines. Go from there.

Best of luck!