I have tasted the Kool Aid

[bigman]

Can someone explain why 650b wheeled bikes are not more popular?

[SamIAm]

I hope to taste that kool-aid soon. Dave Wages has begun work on my 650b dirt road bike.

[Gummee]

They're new.

Road bikes and tri bikes tried em in the 90s and the consensus was they were an answer to a question not too many people were asking. I think that you'll find there's some resistance because of that.

...but I could be wrong.

FWI hear, they make a lot of sense in the smaller frame sizes because the geometry of the 29ers in frames less than 18" make for some compromises.

Jamis has jumped on that train, so hopefully there's gonna be more of em around.

M

[fiamme red]

Road bikes and tri bikes tried em in the 90s and the consensus was they were an answer to a question not too many people were asking.You're referring to 650c, not 650b.

[Germany_chris]

650b was not on Tri-Bikes..that was 650c

650c is 571

650b is 584

26" MTB 559

700c is 622

27" is 630

[bigman]

I picked up a Raleigh Portage - the ride is that of a hovercraft, is the bike a bit slower - yes, heavy - yes. However totally fun and a blast to ride. The roads took a tremendous beating this winter as we all know. These size tires are just not that bothered by bad roads, corner great and make bad roads fine.

[buck-50]

Can someone explain why 650b wheeled bikes are not more popular?
Mainly because there's already a whole lot of tire choices at 26" and 700c.

Don't get me wrong, I think 650b is fine, the world needs more choices, but in reality 99.9% of cyclists are well served by the two standard sizes.

650b is a lot like custom- really only necessary for very specialized applications.

I had the chance to go 650b for my custom. I went 700c- it was easier to find rims, tires, etc. 32mm paselas are hard to beat for cost/benefit.

[bicycletricycle]

This whole 650b thing is a little silly I think. How many rim diameters do we need?

[Ken Robb]

I have been tempted to try 650b wheels but since I ride several 60-63cm bikes with clearance for 35-42mm tires I can already use fat comfy tires.
OTOH 650b would give me more standover clearance than I have w/fat tires now.

There is much info on the net concerning converting some 700 bikes to use 650b wheels. The Rivendell site is a good place to start.

[oldpotatoe]

They're new.

Road bikes and tri bikes tried em in the 90s and the consensus was they were an answer to a question not too many people were asking. I think that you'll find there's some resistance because of that.

...but I could be wrong.

FWI hear, they make a lot of sense in the smaller frame sizes because the geometry of the 29ers in frames less than 18" make for some compromises.

Jamis has jumped on that train, so hopefully there's gonna be more of em around.

M

I think you are thinking of 650C, not B, in the 90s, tribikes and all. Different animal.

[fourflys]

I had a 650b Rivendell and will have another one this winter when I got home to visit my dad... I'll have to say I didn't really feel any appreciable difference between 650b and 700c... I think there are plenty of tire choices for 650b if you look on the Rivendell site... honestly, how many tires choices do we need for any size wheel?

[eddief]

in fact, I tried twice. As others have said, nothing wrong with another alternative. And maybe without the marketing savvy of Grant Peterson, this would have stayed hidden in a musty French closet. But seems to me even he is not doing the push hardly at all any more.

My riding is almost 100% on smooth roads and prefer a blend of lightness, speed. In the end, my Bleriot seemed heavy and balooonie and I had not much glee on it when doing my kind of riding.

If I were doing more commuting, riding more on mixed surface roads, or just needed another steed in the garage, go 650B.

[rice rocket]

What's wrong w/ wide 700c tires? Like 700x45?

All I've read so far is that 650b comes in fatter sizes...but so does everything else... You're not forced to run 23's on errrrrrythang.

[fourflys]

In the end, my Bleriot seemed heavy and balooonie and I had not much glee on it when doing my kind of riding.


that's why I sol mine as well... my dad is giving me his Hilson this Christmas though...

as far as why not fat 700c... I guess maybe the 650b in the same size tire might be a little lighter? I think the real reason is on smaller frames it reduces toe overlap and provides more standover for shorter riders...

GP might not be pushing 650b as much as we was, but if you look at the bikes he is selling you're hard pressed to find 700c on anything under a 56cm... (maybe the Roadeo...)

[goonster]

Can someone explain why 650b wheeled bikes are not more popular?
Not enough people have tried them, with really good tires.

I'm even bigger than Ken, also love the 700 x 32c Paselas, and I still think that there is a real, significant benefit to 650 x 38-42b. Enough of a benefit that I designed my dream rando bike around them.

They are not the answer to every question, but for long rides on road surfaces that include a fair amount of chipseal and broken pavement they are the non plus ultra, imho.

http://www.picpile.net/ims/pic_264UD99M/55490.jpg

[goonster]

What's wrong w/ wide 700c tires? Like 700x45?

There is no tire in that size with a supple casing.

For example, the 700 x 37c Pasela is available only with the Tourguard liner, and it rides quite heavily.

Closest are the Grand Bois Cypres and the Challenge Paris-Roubaix at 700 x 32c and 700 x 29c, respectively.

[bigman]

The largest 700 tire I have ridden Continental country rides in 700x37. I did not run these at the 55psi I run the Col de la Vie - which are supposedly not a great 650b tire - but there is not that much comparison. both are nice - but the 650b definitely makes road defects disappear much more so than the Continentals. I am sure there are other factors - but none as contributory as the tire size.

[the ill postino]

Closest I've seen to something like the ride quality associated with 650b tires but in a more "standard" size are something like Schwalbe's 26" Big Apples. But currently those tires tend to the heavy side, so right now the 650b size has some of the best relatively lightweight, cushy tires around.

[Ken Robb]

Some folks have jumped on the convert-a-frame bandwagon because they could put fat 650b tires on a 700 frame they already owned that wouldn't fit tires wider than 25mm on 700 rims. The smaller diameter moves the rear tire back into the wider space between chainstays and away from the tight space toward the top of the fork so fat tires may fit.

[bigflax925]

I hope to taste it soon, too. One of my irons in the fire is a 650b Rivendell All Rounder. I'm hoping to have it done before the summer.

I've always liked 26" wheels for touring. Rather than downsizing a 700c, I'm upsizing to 650b hoping for a little more comfort on our poor roadways, and a touch more speed than a fatty 700c.

[djg]

I had a 650b Rivendell and will have another one this winter when I got home to visit my dad... I'll have to say I didn't really feel any appreciable difference between 650b and 700c... I think there are plenty of tire choices for 650b if you look on the Rivendell site... honestly, how many tires choices do we need for any size wheel?

Dunno how many we need, but I like having choices and I think that the potential differences between arguably suitable tires for any given cycling purpose can be very noticeable. For 700c I think I have 3 different cyclocross treads in-house, but might do fine with two; add to that two different sizes of tubular road tires in service -- and I would like to keep them both (23 & 25) -- plus clinchers. So without looking at competing brands, different price-points, different weights, tread compounds, construction, etc., I'm up to 5 or 6 different tires just for different types of riding on 700c wheels. I'm pretty sure I don't like what everybody else would choose, and equally sure that my choices would not appeal to everybody else.

Which is not to say that there's a darn thing wrong with 650b if that floats your boat.

[rpm]

Some folks have jumped on the convert-a-frame bandwagon because they could put fat 650b tires on a 700 frame they already owned that wouldn't fit tires wider than 25mm on 700 rims. The smaller diameter moves the rear tire back into the wider space between chainstays and away from the tight space toward the top of the fork so fat tires may fit.

I did a conversion of my old 80's English Wester Ross road frame. I put on the 650b's with Grand Bois tires, Berthoud stainless fenders, and albatross bars. It's a wonderful town bike, and a great way to repurpose a nice old road frame.

You can see it here on the Wester Ross fan club site:

http://www.bikebrothers.co.uk/wr469.htm

[eddief]

Not enough people have tried them, with really good tires.

I'm even bigger than Ken, also love the 700 x 32c Paselas, and I still think that there is a real, significant benefit to 650 x 38-42b. Enough of a benefit that I designed my dream rando bike around them.

They are not the answer to every question, but for long rides on road surfaces that include a fair amount of chipseal and broken pavement they are the non plus ultra, imho.

http://www.picpile.net/ims/pic_264UD99M/55490.jpg

nice cruiser.

[DHallerman]

650b is a lot like custom- really only necessary for very specialized applications.

Or 650B is also necessary if you want to take an older road bike that took only relatively narrow 700c tires and outfit it with fatter tires.

I did that with an early 1990s Bridgestone RB-2, and it's a lot of fun to ride.

But, by my calculations, I decreased the trail from a typical 55mm to about 35mm -- still, the handling does not feel too sensitive. Probably the fatter tires.

Dave, who loves taking an older frame and finding ways to make it reborn

[buck-50]

Or 650B is also necessary if you want to take an older road bike that took only relatively narrow 700c tires and outfit it with fatter tires.

I did that with an early 1990s Bridgestone RB-2, and it's a lot of fun to ride.

But, by my calculations, I decreased the trail from a typical 55mm to about 35mm -- still, the handling does not feel too sensitive. Probably the fatter tires.

Dave, who loves taking an older frame and finding ways to make it reborn
Which, you have to admit, is a pretty specialized application... :D :D :D

[goonster]

nice cruiser.
It does cruise well, but it also spends a fair amount of time in pacelines, and I have never been outdescended on this bike.

I'm thinking more Porsche 928 than Lincoln Continental.

[JeremyS]

Someone beat to the 700x45 tire question - there's just nothing out there with a supple casing. They all suck. It also makes for somewhat wonky handling compared to 650B.

650B really hits the sweet spot with the Grand Bois Hetres. Since I'm too lazy to do the math, I believe you get the rolling diameter of a 700x25 or so, but with the squish of a 42mm tire. The Hetres are just dreamy smooth on ????ty roads (Oakland, and at a growing rate, all of the USA).

[Ken Robb]

I did a conversion of my old 80's English Wester Ross road frame. I put on the 650b's with Grand Bois tires, Berthoud stainless fenders, and albatross bars. It's a wonderful town bike, and a great way to repurpose a nice old road frame.

You can see it here on the Wester Ross fan club site:

http://www.bikebrothers.co.uk/wr469.htm
Beautiful example of a swap for a totally new ride at less-than-max cost. You'll notice I did NOT say "cheap". :beer:

[palincss]

honestly, how many tires choices do we need for any size wheel?

Gotta have 700x23 in every color in the rainbow, don't you know? And then complain about too many SKUs if you introduce another size...

[RPS]

Some folks have jumped on the convert-a-frame bandwagon because they could put fat 650b tires on a 700 frame they already owned that wouldn't fit tires wider than 25mm on 700 rims. The smaller diameter moves the rear tire back into the wider space between chainstays and away from the tight space toward the top of the fork so fat tires may fit.
I agree that being able to modify an existing frameset was the main advantage to the relatively odd rim size because the tires are similar in diameter to 700c. When starting from scratch with a new bike that isn't as important and either 700C or 26-inch can work too. Choice is good but I think you are correct on why 650b is as successful as it is.

[RPS]

.....snipped.....

But, by my calculations, I decreased the trail from a typical 55mm to about 35mm -- still, the handling does not feel too sensitive. Probably the fatter tires.

Dave, who loves taking an older frame and finding ways to make it reborn
Dave, it's hard for me to imagine that tire diameter differences alone come close to making such a big difference in trail. Did you change other factors like fork rake too?

[Volant]

For an off-road bike, 650b makes perfect sense. A 29'er was too slow and heavy (in tight twisty single track which is about all I have around here) and the 26 handled right but got hammered over all the little obstacles. The 27.5 works out perfect for me and I didn't need to do anything custom on either my hardtail or 4" FS other than buy one fork and wheels (rigid fork on ht works with 650b).

[DHallerman]

Dave, it's hard for me to imagine that tire diameter differences alone come close to making such a big difference in trail. Did you change other factors like fork rake too?

No other changes, but my memory was off.

Just checked my calculations, and the same Bridgestone RB-1 bike that had a 55mm trail with 700c tires (25mm width) changed with 650B tires (33mm width) to a 51mm trail.

That is, no big change. No wonder the handling didn't seem much different.

Thanks for the head's up.

Dave, who relies on the inadequate dangers of memory too often

[palincss]

nice cruiser.

I don't think "cruiser" as that term is usually used comes anywhere close. That Bilenky is a bike for seriously long distance, all road surfaces, all weather conditions, any time of day or night, self-supported riding. It's not about six block, six mile an hour parades along the boardwalk to the local coffee shop.

[eddief]

I don't think "cruiser" as that term is usually used comes anywhere close. That Bilenky is a bike for seriously long distance, all road surfaces, all weather conditions, any time of day or night, self-supported riding. It's not about six block, six mile an hour parades along the boardwalk to the local coffee shop.

tomAto tomato

[that guy]

I have no doubt 650b is great, but I'm all about cross-compatibility and there's no way I can switch the whole fleet over.

[palincss]

Cross compatibility means what, exactly? If you want a fleet of bikes with tires ranging in width of 23mm, 28, 32, 35 and 42mm, even if you stayed with 622 you would still have 5 different tires, and perhaps as many as 3 or 4 different rim widths and tube sizes, and you wouldn't be able to swap many of those wheels from bike to bike. How much worse would having the last two be 584 rather than 622 actually be?

[palincss]

tomAto tomato

That Continental Mark II actually was a cruiser. The Bilenky is much more like one of these:

http://www.automobilesnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/qp-automatica_05-a450.jpg

[HenryA]

This is the answer.

I am completely taken with my Serotta TiMax 650B mountain bike. Its all the good things from 26" and 29" wheel sizes and none of the bad. Rolls fast and smooth like a 29er, carves like a 26"er.

For an off-road bike, 650b makes perfect sense. A 29'er was too slow and heavy (in tight twisty single track which is about all I have around here) and the 26 handled right but got hammered over all the little obstacles. The 27.5 works out perfect for me and I didn't need to do anything custom on either my hardtail or 4" FS other than buy one fork and wheels (rigid fork on ht works with 650b).

[Wilkinson4]

From my cold dead hands. I will never let this bike go unless I have to eat but I would sell the rest of my fleet first:)

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2610/4164796488_7d03b2f195_b.jpg

Every time I neglect this bike and then hop back on I kick myslef. It is such a pleasent ride.

mIKE

[Rueda Tropical]

Tires bigger then 30mm for 700c tend to be better suited to beach cruisers and utility bikes -if you want fat tire performance- 650b is the way to go. I stick to smooth roads so 700x28c is as cushy as I need. But if I was speccing a go anywhere bike and one that could descend on twisty less then perfect roads without drama I'd go for 650B with Pari-Moto or Hetre tires.

[san]

would it affect performance?
i think 650c should be easier to accelerate due to a smaller size but harder to climb.
any input?

[Germany_chris]

would it affect performance?
i think 650c should be easier to accelerate due to a smaller size but harder to climb.
any input?

Not 650C, 650B..

[RPS]

would it affect performance?
i think 650c should be easier to accelerate due to a smaller size but harder to climb.
any input?
Only that the diameter of the tires/rims being smaller doesn't make much difference beyond its effect on reducing mass. If two rims or tires weigh the same they should accelerate about the same.

[Ken Robb]

If anyone wants to try a decent 700x35 tire for little $$ Performance sells a tire that comes with and without Kevlar belts for about $20 but often on sale for about $12 that I have been riding on my Riv Allrounder. They have a few sipes in the otherwise smooth treads and are much lighter than many other tires in this size range. I got one puncture from a thumbtack.

[buck-50]

Tires bigger then 30mm for 700c tend to be better suited to beach cruisers and utility bikes -if you want fat tire performance- 650b is the way to go. I stick to smooth roads so 700x28c is as cushy as I need. But if I was speccing a go anywhere bike and one that could descend on twisty less then perfect roads without drama I'd go for 650B with Pari-Moto or Hetre tires.
But is that the fault of the 700c size or the fact that road tires bigger than 28 are pretty well neglected in the 700c range?

The thing that kept me from going with 650b on my custom was this: I know that in a pinch I can walk into any bike shop in america and a good portion of the big box shops and come out with a tire that will fit my bike.

[goonster]

The thing that kept me from going with 650b on my custom was this: I know that in a pinch I can walk into any bike shop in america and a good portion of the big box shops and come out with a tire that will fit my bike.
The thing that made me go with 650b was this:

I can ride the bike I really want for the next forty years, or I can compromise the design by worrying about what might not be available in the backwoods on some dark, wet, hypothetical night in the future.

When is the last time you bought a tire at a big box store? I have never, ever heard of anyone complaining that they were in Ouagadougou, couldn't get a timely 650b spare, and their life was ruined. I know of at least one guy who toured Laos and Vietnam on 650b, and he lived to tell the tale. When I took my tandem to Korea probably less than a quarter of the moving parts could have been repaired or replaced by a shop within a day's bus ride.

On events and tours where I can't afford a delay, I ride with a spare, and do so whether it's 700c or 650b.

That said, I can think of exactly one scenario where this is a valid anti-650b excuse: racing the GDR.

[buck-50]

A pretty good description of the value of 650b from VO...

If you wish to ride tires under 32mm, 700c works well as there as more than a few tires to choose from. For tires over 42mm, 26” is a good place to be. But if you want the dreamy, quick and comfortable ride on high quality, larger volume tires between 32-42mm, 650b is where it’s at.

http://velo-orange.blogspot.com/2011/05/converting-lht-to-650b.html

It's a narrow range, but sweet spots often are.

[Kirk Pacenti]

How did I miss this thread?

Good MTB review here: http://www.jamisbikes.com/usa/reviews/index.html

Click on the DAKAR SIXFIFTY B2 link in the upper left hand corner.

Cheers,
KP

[roydyates]

I put the Pacenti Pari Motos 38mm tires on the (cheap) VO 650B rims on this frame I got from eogie (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=84961)

The ride is very nice. There is something charming about riding over bumps in the road and not caring. However, it's not an earth shattering difference. A nice 28mm 700c tire is also pretty good. Also, the tire/rim combo is heavy. In fact, the F/R wheel combo is a few hundred grams heavier than a Mavic 717 26 inch wheelset running Panaracer Ribmo commmuter tires. I could save some of that weight by getting Velocity rims but I wonder if it would really make a difference. The Pari Motos are supposed to weigh 280g but they seem heavier, than, say, 28mm Continental GP 4 season tires.

In principle, I ought to be randonneuring with the 650b wheels for max comfort. However, I'm not because I ride with guys who all use 700c. That means nobody else has 650b/26 inch spare tubes. It's nice that if you get a couple of flats, somebody else has extra tubes. This sounds like overkill, but I've been on a 400km fleche ride where the group of five had 10 flats.

[coylifut]

I just got a 29er hard tale mtb which I love, but if were to go back to a FS, it would be a 650B. too bad there's not as many choices. I wonder if 650B wheels will fit on a 26er. I know a guy who races a 26 inch hard (fully rigid) with 29er wheels.

[Kirk Pacenti]

Fwiw, Tammy Jacques Grewal (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/former-pro-tammy-jacques-grewal-recovers-from-life-threatening-illness) will be racing on my 650b MTB tires again this year.

As will Randall Wegener (http://rwoutdoors.wordpress.com/) the 2010 Wisconsin Endurance Series 6 Hour Solo Champion.



Cheers,

KP

[old fat man]

i've been running 650b on my Ibis Mojo mtb for a few years now. It's a great middle ground between 26 and 29 ATMA.

Many of you are referring to 650b for road/touring use. I cannot comment from experience there, though I can offer that on my cross country tour a few years ago I had to rebuild a rear wheel when the Open Pro rim cracked at an eyelet. Of the 3 shops in rural Iowa near me at the time, only one had a 700c rim that was close to an acceptable match (ERD wise). I can guarantee you none of them had a 650b wheel, let alone rim. Understandably, you're not likely to find yourself in a similar situation very often (ever?), but for a touring bike, you'll never convince me to use 650b.

[d_douglas]

This whole 650b thing is a little silly I think. How many rim diameters do we need?


I haven't even tried the Kool Aid, but I don't get it. 26" or 700c/29" - who needs more?

[fiamme red]

How many rim diameters do we need?The answer is 32. :)

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rim-sizing.html

[palincss]

I can offer that on my cross country tour a few years ago I had to rebuild a rear wheel when the Open Pro rim cracked at an eyelet. Of the 3 shops in rural Iowa near me at the time, only one had a 700c rim that was close to an acceptable match (ERD wise). I can guarantee you none of them had a 650b wheel, let alone rim. Understandably, you're not likely to find yourself in a similar situation very often (ever?), but for a touring bike, you'll never convince me to use 650b.

As long as FedEx goes there, you could have a replacement rim in 24 hours. How often do you need a replacement rim on a tour, anway?

I can see bringing a spare tire, no matter what size. In fact, I routinely do on tour. Back in 27 x 1 1/4" days, many tourists used to carry tires triple coiled and bungied onto their panniers even though every Western Auto carried 27 x 1 1/4" tires because after all, how many times have you had a tire destroy itself within walking distance of a bike shop or a Western Auto?

[Ken Robb]

WOW-"Western Tire"--I haven't thought of them in a looooong time--even longer than Montgomery Ward. :)

[buck-50]

As long as FedEx goes there, you could have a replacement rim in 24 hours. How often do you need a replacement rim on a tour, anway?

I can see bringing a spare tire, no matter what size. In fact, I routinely do on tour. Back in 27 x 1 1/4" days, many tourists used to carry tires triple coiled and bungied onto their panniers even though every Western Auto carried 27 x 1 1/4" tires because after all, how many times have you had a tire destroy itself within walking distance of a bike shop or a Western Auto?
You first in line for the new Nissan Leaf? C'mon, how often do you drive more than 100 miles in a day?

We all have our irrational justifications for what we buy and why we buy it. I buy apple products because I don't want to have to worry about viruses. Doesn't matter that my mac is just as (if not more, due to it's utter lack of protection) vulnerable to viruses than anything else, it makes me comfortable. Plus it's prettier than any PC.

Yes, in a perfect world, we'd all understand that FedEx can overnight stuff to you anywhere in the world... Then again, we've all had FedEx overnight us stuff that didn't arrive for 2 days.

650b has a nice niche and I'm glad it's there. It's not for me, but as the original supporters of 650b say, vive la difference!

[palincss]

You first in line for the new Nissan Leaf? C'mon, how often do you drive more than 100 miles in a day?


Just about every time I go for a bike ride in Northern Virginia.



We all have our irrational justifications for what we buy and why we buy it. I buy apple products because I don't want to have to worry about viruses. Doesn't matter that my mac is just as (if not more, due to it's utter lack of protection) vulnerable to viruses than anything else, it makes me comfortable. Plus it's prettier than any PC.

Yes, in a perfect world, we'd all understand that FedEx can overnight stuff to you anywhere in the world... Then again, we've all had FedEx overnight us stuff that didn't arrive for 2 days.

650b has a nice nice and I'm glad it's there. It's not for me, but as the original supporters of 650b say, vive la difference!

Here, we are in complete agreement. I'm not trying to convince you to tour on 650B, although I am very happy to do so myself. You've got to go with what makes you feel comfortable when touring, as there's just so much that can go wrong leaving you vulnerable.

I've had that moment. I was on a tour once with my daughter on a tandem, riding the roads from home up to Harpers Ferry and Antietam, camping at the hiker-biker campsites on the C&O Canal. We broke our first spoke in Georgetown, and the third or fourth in Sandy Hook, MD just across the river from Harpers Ferry. There's nothing in Sandy Hook MD, except a grocery store that, in my daughter's description, sold nothing but "live bait and hamburger buns." Not that far from DC or home, but it might as well have been in Afghanistan, the way I felt.

And later on in that trip, we had tire trouble. Even though I had a spare, and even though they were 27 x 1 1/4" tires, you know, the ones that you could find in every Western Auto in the United States of America. Our ride ended in Poolesville, MD, where they didn't have a Western Auto, where the spare failed.

We spent the entire day waiting for my wife to get out of work and to come up and get us. It wasn't all bad, though. As we were waiting, we saw a couple come riding up on an ancient boardwalk tandem. They stopped and we talked for a while. They were from the UK, visiting friends. They'd been camping somewhere in the George Washington Forest or Shenandoah Park. Not being familiar with Ursus Americanus, they'd kept their food in their tent with them, and woke up to the sight of a black bear ripping their tent to shreds to get at the food.

They escaped on foot, leaving all their gear, and went back to their host in DC. As a consolation, he let them use an ancient tandem he had in the garage that hadn't been ridden since the 1950s.

And there they were, riding through Poolesville, en route to Harpers Ferry and points up-river.

[old fat man]

As long as FedEx goes there, you could have a replacement rim in 24 hours. How often do you need a replacement rim on a tour, anway?

I can see bringing a spare tire, no matter what size. In fact, I routinely do on tour. Back in 27 x 1 1/4" days, many tourists used to carry tires triple coiled and bungied onto their panniers even though every Western Auto carried 27 x 1 1/4" tires because after all, how many times have you had a tire destroy itself within walking distance of a bike shop or a Western Auto?

My point is, why introduce unnecessary challenges while touring? I was weary enough about using Campy. My rim failed late on a Friday and I made it to a bike shop at about 4pm, rebuilt the wheel and was rolling by about 6. I'd have been in some random town in Iowa until Tuesday if I was waiting for FedEx because I'd have been hard pressed to get a rim ordered and shipped that Friday.

Oh, and I carried two spare tires, bungee corded to the underside of my BOB trailer. I swapped 'em around the half way point but still kept the used ones for spares. When you're riding 4000+ miles, self supported, why not eliminate as many equipment worries and incompatibilities as possible? Even if you're riding 500 miles, the same holds true ATMA.

[palincss]

My point is, why introduce unnecessary challenges while touring? I was weary enough about using Campy. My rim failed late on a Friday and I made it to a bike shop at about 4pm, rebuilt the wheel and was rolling by about 6. I'd have been in some random town in Iowa until Tuesday if I was waiting for FedEx because I'd have been hard pressed to get a rim ordered and shipped that Friday.

Oh, and I carried two spare tires, bungee corded to the underside of my BOB trailer. I swapped 'em around the half way point but still kept the used ones for spares. When you're riding 4000+ miles, self supported, why not eliminate as many equipment worries and incompatibilities as possible? Even if you're riding 500 miles, the same holds true ATMA.

You use Campagnolo drive trains on touring bikes? What LBSs carry spares for Campagnolo? Wheels for Campagnolo drive trains, with their extreme dish, are probably more likely to fail under touring loads than other wheels. So by those standards, shouldn't you be using Shimano instead?

[oldpotatoe]

You use Campagnolo drive trains on touring bikes? What LBSs carry spares for Campagnolo? Wheels for Campagnolo drive trains, with their extreme dish, are probably more likely to fail under touring loads than other wheels. So by those standards, shouldn't you be using Shimano instead?

That's funny...'extreme dish'...horrors.

I carry spares for Campagnolo and I'm a bike shop.

When the only lever mounted shifters with under the bar cables, so the tourist could carry a handlebar bag and didn't want barends..it was Campagnolo. I have build many, it's not rocket surgery.

My first choice is shimano 9s barends but using Campagnolo isn't like something from Venus or something.

[jamesutiopia]

I could write at length about this subject, but it's all been said before. There's no magic to the 650B tire size, but the selection of excellent high-volume road tires is unmatched by 700C or 26in. They're all produced by Panaracer, and when they go out of stock it takes months for them to re-appear, so hoard appropriately.

I will point out that if you are a big guy (I am tall and 190lbs) the Grand Bois Hetre is an amazing tire. These tires are fast (terminal speeds on descents are the highest I've seen), comfortable (especially if you ride long on consecutive days, i.e. on vacation), and don't need to be removed from the rim to fit in an 26x26in S&S travel box. At my weight the extra pound is not a large % weight penalty, so while it might be bad for crits the big rubber ends up not being a noticeable chore in pacelines.

I think a 650B frame with wide clearances offers great versatility as a travel bike-- mine has done well for credit card touring (it's intended purpose), allowed me to pick up and hang on to fast group rides in foreign countries, taken the edge off cobblestones/gravel/dirt/New England roads, and even seen some light-duty MTB trail use (also: Dura Ace hubs are surprisingly well sealed).

[RPS]

The answer is 32. :)

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rim-sizing.html
That’s interesting data which also raises the question regarding how many of those sizes are still in use; or in use in any real quantity.

I’d expect that in the US (at least until recently) 700C, 26 mountain, and 20-inch BMX/kids sizes account for the vast majority of all tires; granted in different styles and widths. It’d be interesting to see a table of tires sold by rim size. It would not surprise me if the bottom half of those 32 sizes account for less than 1 percent of total bicycle tires sold in US.

[old fat man]

You use Campagnolo drive trains on touring bikes? What LBSs carry spares for Campagnolo? Wheels for Campagnolo drive trains, with their extreme dish, are probably more likely to fail under touring loads than other wheels. So by those standards, shouldn't you be using Shimano instead?

i can make my campy drivetrain work with a shimano wheel if i really needed. 8 speed, 9 speed, 10 speed, the chain will continue to move forward. i cannot make a frame set up for 650b rim sizes work with 700c rims unless i want to ride with no brakes, no matter how hard i try.

to each their own, i just wouldn't want to be caught out needing a replacement 650b anything in less than 48 hours

[coylifut]

the fear that some bike shop in the middle of no where not having a 650B rim would not keep me adopting 'em. I ride 10k miles per year and, besides crashing in races, I've never had a rim fail. I've had OP rims develop cracks, but they are still rideable for a while. At least to a town further down the line where I could intercept a rim.

If I was on a cross country tour and had to wait a couple days to get a rim, what fun. Who knows, I might even make some new friends.

[RPS]

i can make my campy drivetrain work with a shimano wheel if i really needed. 8 speed, 9 speed, 10 speed, the chain will continue to move forward. i cannot make a frame set up for 650b rim sizes work with 700c rims unless i want to ride with no brakes, no matter how hard i try.

to each their own, i just wouldn't want to be caught out needing a replacement 650b anything in less than 48 hours
How about if with discs?

Granted, less likely to find disc parts at Western Auto. :rolleyes:

[fourflys]

I think the real question here is this...

how many of us do multi-day tours, let alone a cross-country trip? I'm sure there is a few here that do, but not most... even on a Brevet, you're done within a day I'm pretty sure...

[coylifut]

I did a 600k in under 24 hours. It would have been way more enjoyable to do 200k per day for 3 days.

[palincss]

I think the real question here is this...

how many of us do multi-day tours, let alone a cross-country trip? I'm sure there is a few here that do, but not most... even on a Brevet, you're done within a day I'm pretty sure...

I've done several multi-day tours on 650B, including the Great Allegheny Passage, a tour in the caverns region of the Shenandoah Valley, and a trip in the Black Hills of South Dakota. You want remote, try the Black Hills. Outside of Rapid City SD (and I believe there's a dealer there who stocks 650B) there's nothing even remotely resembling a bike shop. In fact, inside Custer State Park there's basically nothing at all.

[fourflys]

I've done several multi-day tours on 650B, including the Great Allegheny Passage, a tour in the caverns region of the Shenandoah Valley, and a trip in the Black Hills of South Dakota. You want remote, try the Black Hills. Outside of Rapid City SD (and I believe there's a dealer there who stocks 650B) there's nothing even remotely resembling a bike shop. In fact, inside Custer State Park there's basically nothing at all.

as I said, I know a few do... I just have a feeling most of the naysayers either have never even tried 650b and/or just do day rides out of a basecamp or home...

But, I could be totally off base...

BTW- never had a hint of an issue when I had my 650b Riv... was always able to get tires...

[RPS]

I've done several multi-day tours on 650B, including the Great Allegheny Passage, a tour in the caverns region of the Shenandoah Valley, and a trip in the Black Hills of South Dakota. You want remote, try the Black Hills. Outside of Rapid City SD (and I believe there's a dealer there who stocks 650B) there's nothing even remotely resembling a bike shop. In fact, inside Custer State Park there's basically nothing at all.
The real question I haven't seen answered after five pages is why the same (whatever the claim) can't be accomplished with either 26-inch or 700C. Differences in diameter aren't so large that tire OD in itself would play a major role in ride quality.

Beyond the original ability to convert a 700C frame to fatter tires, what does 650B offer that similar fat tired 26-inch or 700C doesn't? To me that's the real question which explains why we don't see more of them (which BTW, is the OP question). :confused:

[buck-50]

as I said, I know a few do... I just have a feeling most of the naysayers either have never even tried 650b and/or just do day rides out of a basecamp or home...

But, I could be totally off base...

BTW- never had a hint of an issue when I had my 650b Riv... was always able to get tires...
Agreed. I know my 650b-phobia is probably irrational.

But, as a commuter I beat the crap out of wheels. As the parent of a 3 year old, I've got very little time/energy to work on my bike at night.

So, all my bikes (except the bike friday) are 700c. In a pinch, I can grab a wheel off one of my other bikes and be ready to roll in the morning.

And, when I built my custom, those awesome grand bois 650bs weren't available yet, and the riv tires that were available weren't exactly highly regarded...

[fourflys]

The real question I haven't seen answered after five pages is why the same (whatever the claim) can't be accomplished with either 26-inch or 700C. Differences in diameter aren't so large that tire OD in itself would play a major role in ride quality.

Beyond the original ability to convert a 700C frame to fatter tires, what does 650B offer that similar fat tired 26-inch or 700C doesn't? To me that's the real question which explains why we don't see more of them (which BTW, is the OP question). :confused:

I think the the pros have been answered... the ability to use a fatter tire in a quality not normally found in 700c or 26"... the ability to have a lower stand-over height for shorter people... and a large part of it is, I think, the charm of something a little different...

I would love to ride a 650b bike that is built up to around 22-23# as the Bleriot I had weighed in at around 30# and it was a lot of bike to haul around North County San Diego...

does anyone NEED a 650b bike? not really... is it a nice conversation piece that offers some comfort often not found (or possible) on modern frames/forks... you bet...

[RPS]

I think the the pros have been answered... the ability to use a fatter tire in a quality not normally found in 700c or 26"... the ability to have a lower stand-over height for shorter people... and a large part of it is, I think, the charm of something a little different...

I would love to ride a 650b bike that is built up to around 22-23# as the Bleriot I had weighed in at around 30# and it was a lot of bike to haul around North County San Diego...

does anyone NEED a 650b bike? not really... is it a nice conversation piece that offers some comfort often not found (or possible) on modern frames/forks... you bet...
In my opinion much of your answer is based on the flawed implied premise that equal tires can’t be manufactured in both 26-inch and 700C. Because of that I have to disagree with many of your conclusions.

The only part I’ll agree with is being different for the sake of being different having some value. That’s a form of expression I won’t argue against.

[fourflys]

In my opinion much of your answer is based on the flawed implied premise that equal tires can’t be manufactured in both 26-inch and 700C. Because of that I have to disagree with many of your conclusions.
.

never said they can't be manufactured... just that, for the most part, they aren't... it doesn't really count if you can't buy them...

[palincss]

The real question I haven't seen answered after five pages is why the same (whatever the claim) can't be accomplished with either 26-inch or 700C. Differences in diameter aren't so large that tire OD in itself would play a major role in ride quality.

Beyond the original ability to convert a 700C frame to fatter tires, what does 650B offer that similar fat tired 26-inch or 700C doesn't? To me that's the real question which explains why we don't see more of them (which BTW, is the OP question). :confused:

I used 38mm tires on a 559 city bike for 10 years, and 35 and 38mm tires on a 700C touring bike for 10 years. Both had no resemblance whatsoever to 650B x 38, instantly noticeable, and 650B x 42 Hetres are in another league yet again.

Since I ride 59-60 cm frames, the whole wheel size/TCO issue doesn't affect me at all; but there are many who aren't as tall who simply can't ride wide 700Cs without overlap problems. But even if you can fit the tires, that doesn't mean they perform the same.

The world is full of cheap, crappy wide 700C hybrid tires. Show me the 700C equivalent of the Hetre, or the Pari Moto or the Lierre. Show me the 559 equivalent of those tires. They do not exist, as far as I know.

[jamesutiopia]

The world is full of cheap, crappy wide 700C hybrid tires. Show me the 700C equivalent of the Hetre, or the Pari Moto or the Lierre. Show me the 559 equivalent of those tires. They do not exist, as far as I know.

+1, AFAIK the best you can do in 26in is Schwalbe Super Moto (http://www.schwalbetires.com/super_moto_page), which does not look to be as nice as any of the GB (and similar) 650B offerings despite the higher price.

Would be interesting to try a GB Cypres or PariMoto-ish tire in 700Cx35-38. The non-TG Pasela in that size range is OK (I ride them in winter), but kind of stiff.

[RPS]

I used 38mm tires on a 559 city bike for 10 years, and 35 and 38mm tires on a 700C touring bike for 10 years. Both had no resemblance whatsoever to 650B x 38, instantly noticeable, and 650B x 42 Hetres are in another league yet again.

Since I ride 59-60 cm frames, the whole wheel size/TCO issue doesn't affect me at all; but there are many who aren't as tall who simply can't ride wide 700Cs without overlap problems. But even if you can fit the tires, that doesn't mean they perform the same.

The world is full of cheap, crappy wide 700C hybrid tires. Show me the 700C equivalent of the Hetre, or the Pari Moto or the Lierre. Show me the 559 equivalent of those tires. They do not exist, as far as I know.
I personally like more options and don’t have anything against 650B, but can also see why many may think this issue is a little like the tail wagging the dog.

There are literally 100s if not 1000s of bike tire models in different rim sizes already, so general resistance to yet an additional rim size standard for US fashioned around the availability of a couple of tire models shouldn’t surprise anyone IMHO.

Other than enabling the occasional conversion of existing 700C framesets, it seems to me that adding a few more tire choices to the myriad we already have would be easier and more effective than introducing a new class of bike fashioned around a new rim diameter that is not all than different than either 26 or 700C.

Having said that, if it gets more people out on their bikes and others spending money to support the industry then it’s all good as far as I’m concerned. :beer:

[palincss]

Other than enabling the occasional conversion of existing 700C framesets, it seems to me that adding a few more tire choices to the myriad we already have would be easier and more effective than introducing a new class of bike fashioned around a new rim diameter that is not all than different than either 26 or 700C.


<sarcasm>
Yeah, we could have more colors of 700x23. We don't have enough tire choices in that respect, there are some colors of socks and jerseys that you can't match to tires, and god forbid that. There's an infinitude of SKUs for color matching, but you know it would ruin the supply system to add half a dozen for a size like 650B.
</sarcasm>

And by the way, it's not a new class of bike. It's been around for almost a century. We just didn't know it here.