Hmmmmmmmm

[oldpotatoe]

http://cgi.ebay.com/3K-New-Full-Carbon-Road-Bike-Bicycle-Frame-54cm-Fork-/270740889319

looks familiar somehow, can't quite place it.....I know!

[sg8357]

Must be the new crabon fibre Bates Uncle Ray was talking about.

[LegendRider]

http://cgi.ebay.com/3K-New-Full-Carbon-Road-Bike-Bicycle-Frame-54cm-Fork-/270740889319

looks familiar somehow, can't quite place it.....I know!

I guess that means Pinarello stickers cost $4,000.

[Gummee]

I guess that means Pinarello stickers cost $4,000.
Must be one HECK of a set of stickers!

M

[William]

I guess that means Pinarello stickers cost $4,000.


Look, you people don't understand the increased cost of adhesives these days. Don't question it! :no:



:rolleyes:

William

[Bob Loblaw]

I've never before heard Taiwanese spoken with an Italian accent...

[Ken Robb]

It looks like it was left in the sun too long.

[fourflys]

http://cgi.ebay.com/3K-New-Full-Carbon-Road-Bike-Bicycle-Frame-54cm-Fork-/270740889319

looks familiar somehow, can't quite place it.....I know!


I've been wanting to try one of those for a while now... I gotta wonder if most cyclists could tell the difference if you slapped a set of stickers on it... BTW- I've heard someone sells a set of "Chinarello" stickers for those...

[Chris]

I don't know how I feel about these bikes. They are popping up a lot around here. I probably see 1 or 2 on every group ride I do. Even one of our local clubs contacted one of the manufacturers and purchased their bikes direct. Custom paint for the team and everything. I think they ended up being about $450 for frame fork and headset. Certainly makes cycling more affordable. The elitist in me will stick with my Speedvagen, but I wonder how much this is cutting into the brick and mortar guys not to mention the bike companies themselves. No answers, just questions.

[fourflys]

but I wonder how much this is cutting into the bike companies themselves. No answers, just questions.

but is that a bad thing?

any feedback on how they ride from others?

[buck-50]

I guess that means Pinarello stickers cost $4,000.
BAM!

[oldpotatoe]

but is that a bad thing?

any feedback on how they ride from others?

Don't think it's a bad thing at all except when you wonder who is making all the $ for Asian produced, very expensive, carbon frames. Ridley, Pinarello, Scott, Colnago, DeRosa, Specialized, Trek, Giant.....etc.

[rice rocket]

You can order them w/ full paint kits now too...

http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/8458/imgp2263l.jpg

[AngryScientist]

Don't think it's a bad thing at all except when you wonder who is making all the $ for Asian produced, very expensive, carbon frames. Ridley, Pinarello, Scott, Colnago, DeRosa, Specialized, Trek, Giant.....etc.

well let's not forget that someone did need to do the R&D for these frames. i have to believe that pinarello, 'nago and others maintain some presence in italia where the frames are actually designed. i also have to believe the high dollar companies are investing significant time and $$ into wind tunnel testing, and other lab testing to validate their designs, as they push the envelope with tube shapes and thicknesses. this stuff all costs hella dollars (euros?).

it is one thing to design and produce a frame, it is entirely another to copy a proven design from a cash flow perspective.

[fourflys]

Don't think it's a bad thing at all except when you wonder who is making all the $ for Asian produced, very expensive, carbon frames. Ridley, Pinarello, Scott, Colnago, DeRosa, Specialized, Trek, Giant.....etc.


agree... although, I do think Giants represent the best value for the name brand stuff... at least from a consumer prospective, not sure from a shop owner's prospective...

I may have pick one of those up one day just to see how they ride...

[AngryScientist]

also, i think it would be good to see a LBS or three step up and align with one of these e-bay sellers to offer these frames in shop. put them on the floor next to the pinarellos, let the customer decide if they want to front the 4k premium for the italian name. i'm guessing profit margins could be similar for the lbs.

let's get some real world feedback on these things as some real riders get some saddle time....

[benb]

I haven't seen any of these in person yet but they're pretty intriguing.. I've looked through the threads on RBR and there are a bunch of very happy owners, it just sounds like you have to do quite a bit more work on some of them to get them built up as they might not have that final bit of polish required for an easy build.

One of two things is going on:

1) These chinese guys are stealing intellectual property from whoever is designing these bikes. Then I feel bad for the bike company, but Chinese culture just doesn't look at IP the same way we do.

2) Knowledge of how to build these is just everywhere in Taiwan/China now since bikes are bikes and they've been building CF bikes for a long time now. The western bike companies are ripping us off and just laughing all the way to the bank selling these for thousands.

More power to the Chinese & Taiwanese guys selling direct for being entrepreneurial/innovative if this is the case.

[fourflys]

well let's not forget that someone did need to do the R&D for these frames. i have to believe that pinarello, 'nago and others maintain some presence in italia where the frames are actually designed. i also have to believe the high dollar companies are investing significant time and $$ into wind tunnel testing, and other lab testing to validate their designs, as they push the envelope with tube shapes and thicknesses. this stuff all costs hella dollars (euros?).


I have a feeling you're putting way too much confidence in the manufacturers... I'm sure there are some R&D costs, but I don't think they are as much as they want you to think they are... and the "Chinarello" still has to set up the tooling and go through the rest of the setup process....

[benb]

well let's not forget that someone did need to do the R&D for these frames. i have to believe that pinarello, 'nago and others maintain some presence in italia where the frames are actually designed. i also have to believe the high dollar companies are investing significant time and $$ into wind tunnel testing, and other lab testing to validate their designs, as they push the envelope with tube shapes and thicknesses. this stuff all costs hella dollars (euros?).

it is one thing to design and produce a frame, it is entirely another to copy a proven design from a cash flow perspective.

IIRC these are not exact clones of Pinnarellos.. it's just a chinese designed bike that is style to look like a Pinarello.. the geometry is not necessarily the same, nor is the layup.. ISTR on some of them the Pinarello has a seatmast and the Chinese clone does not.

So they deserve a little more credit..

These being sold for $400-600 completely destroys any argument that the raw carbon is actually expensive as well. (As if anyone who is involved in any other hobbies needed proof of that when you can buy enough CF @ retail prices (even finished tubes) to make a bike for a very small amount of money.)

[AngryScientist]

IIRC these are not exact clones of Pinnarellos.. it's just a chinese designed bike that is style to look like a Pinarello.. the geometry is not necessarily the same, nor is the layup.. ISTR on some of them the Pinarello has a seatmast and the Chinese clone does not.

So they deserve a little more credit..

These being sold for $400-600 completely destroys any argument that the raw carbon is actually expensive as well. (As if anyone who is involved in any other hobbies needed proof of that when you can buy enough CF @ retail prices (even finished tubes) to make a bike for a very small amount of money.)

i agree with you Ben. as an engineer myself, i know a little bit about cf design, enough to be dangerous anyway. i also know that if some chinese company put me on their payroll and i could spend 9 hours a day designing frames, i'm sure i could do a damned good job of it, at a very low relative cost.

good point about the cf costs themselves too.

[rwsaunders]

I'm surprised that given the low cost, that some bike rag or bike manufacturer hasn't subjected a few of the frames to destructive testing and a QC review.

[Joachim]

I'm surprised that given the low cost, that some bike rag or bike manufacturer hasn't subjected a few of the frames to destructive testing and a QC review.

Just think of the implications of a "what if there is no difference" situation...

[rwsaunders]

Just think of the implication of a "what if there is no difference" situation...

The same thought had crossed my mind.

[PaulE]

There is a guy in Manhattan selling these or something similar through Craigslist under the SP-Carbon brand. He builds up with whatever group and wheels you want. I finally saw one parked at the Runcible Spoon in Nyack a few weeks ago. Was thinking of finding the owner and asking him about it, but didn't.

SP-Carbon (http://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/bik/2382810763.html)

[PaulE]

I'm surprised that given the low cost, that some bike rag or bike manufacturer hasn't subjected a few of the frames to destructive testing and a QC review.

There would have to be a big advertising revenue angle for the bike rags to do a story on these. Maybe the big bike co's would rather not give these bikes more any exposure as they already know the answer to this -

Just think of the implications of a "what if there is no difference" situation...

I don't know if these frames are good or bad. It would be nice to learn more about them.

[Idris Icabod]

These have been under intense discussion amongst guys I ride with at the moment, one guy even has some dialogue about buying several and is negotiating prices with the vendor.

In reference to pricing, I know bike shops always mention the low mark ups on frames and I don't want to re-hash that but I remember Pista Palace a year or so ago getting upset with Colnago and discontinuing selling them and placing their rather large stock on e-bay along with a copy of the price invoice he was paying for them and the mark up was to say the least rather large.

[AngryScientist]

These have been under intense discussion amongst guys I ride with at the moment, one guy even has some dialogue about buying several and is negotiating prices with the vendor.

In reference to pricing, I know bike shops always mention the low mark ups on frames and I don't want to re-hash that but I remember Pista Palace a year or so ago getting upset with Colnago and discontinuing selling them and placing their rather large stock on e-bay along with a copy of the price invoice he was paying for them and the mark up was to say the least rather large.

interesting, i know PP had quite a few 'nagos on the wall when i was there a few years ago. too bad, they're great bikes.

[bart998]

These have been under intense discussion amongst guys I ride with at the moment, one guy even has some dialogue about buying several and is negotiating prices with the vendor.

In reference to pricing, I know bike shops always mention the low mark ups on frames and I don't want to re-hash that but I remember Pista Palace a year or so ago getting upset with Colnago and discontinuing selling them and placing their rather large stock on e-bay along with a copy of the price invoice he was paying for them and the mark up was to say the least rather large.

Having worked in bike shops for many years, the mark-up on a bike is usually around 25%. The pricier the bike, the lower the percentage. If you invest $3K into a bike you sell for $4K after a year of display and dusting, that's a very poor investment. Most shops make their $$ on tubes, cables, and labor. The bikes bring people in the door.

[LegendRider]

I'd love to see a bike publication closely examine the differences between one of these frames and a Pinarello. Obviously they look alike, but are they really?

Do they use the same quality carbon?
Is the geometry similar?
Is the finish of the knock-off of equal quality?
Have a mechanic build both with the same group to look for issues and, of course, road test them.

The chances of major publication doing this seems slim (lots o' Pinarello ads out there...)

[fourflys]

Do they use the same quality carbon?


I think the real question here is this... is there really a perceivable difference in the "quality" of carbon to most people? I understand there are differences in the numbers, but it's kind of like trying to say there is a difference in True Temper Ox and Reynolds ??? steel... most people would have no idea without a sticker...

or at least that's what my novice mind is thinking...

now geometry, who knows...

[benb]

You don't have to have an expert do anything to go find out about the differences, even reading RBR will clue you in to some extent...

Paint - A lot of these come unpainted, but you can negotiate with the contact in china to get them painted any way you want

Finish - sounds like these are more likely to need to be sanded, etc.. do to overspray into the BB shell, head tube, etc..

Building - it sounded like some of them might have oddities with respect to what headsets would fit.. but this isn't that different then expensive brand name bikes

I'm not sure why the geometry matters.. unless these bikes are not straight & true geometry is your preference.. the brand name bike might not fit you and the knock off could fit. If that was the case the knock off would undoubtedly be the superior bike for you.

[fourflys]

I'm not sure why the geometry matters.. unless these bikes are not straight & true geometry is your preference.. the brand name bike might not fit you and the knock off could fit. If that was the case the knock off would undoubtedly be the superior bike for you.

I think the question was if the geometry was the same as the Pino or something else... but, I agree it all depends on what you need...

[InspectorGadget]

I once bought 500 shares of stock at $1/share. I knew the company had been having some tough times, but I thought How badly can I get hurt? The answer, I lost my $500 dollar investment.

Unless the bike is complete junk or a safety hazard, $350 doesn't sound like too much of a risk to me. I'll put in $20 toward a Serotta forum test mule.

I want mine with Chinarello stickers. :D

[spacemen3]

I've been cleaning up my friend's FP Quattro this week, and this knock-off looks the same to me. I wouldn't be surprised if these were QA cosmetic rejects or overruns from the same Pinarello factory. It makes me chuckle to think of what he paid for his.

[William]

I'm not surprised.

As someone who has dealt with factories in China, and worked for a company that for generations designed and produced product here in the States...but ended up going over seas...I saw a lot of this. It really sucks when you go to a trade show, and see that your competitors are selling similar, but maybe slightly different versions of your products that they imported from Chinese factories. :crap:

There is a way to go about it, but many going over there aren't aware or plan accordingly.




William

[TAW]

Knock offs and look alikes have been the part of a lot of industries. In the golf club industry, you can always find a small company which makes clubs that look exactly like a big name company's. Just because it looks the same doesn't necessarily mean it will translate into equal performance.

[hockeybike]

Intellectual property FAIL. Oy...

[InspectorGadget]

I'll put in $20 toward a Serotta forum test mule.To quote myself.

Maybe I need to up my contribution; does anybody else want to take a run at this?

[cody.wms]

I've been cleaning up my friend's FP Quattro this week, and this knock-off looks the same to me. I wouldn't be surprised if these were QA cosmetic rejects or overruns from the same Pinarello factory. It makes me chuckle to think of what he paid for his.

I think the Dogma and Prince are still made in Italy. Some of the lower models are made in the east. If these are QC rejects, I wonder what the problem with them is...

[thegunner]

I think the Dogma and Prince are still made in Italy. Some of the lower models are made in the east. If these are QC rejects, I wonder what the problem with them is...

i thought they were just painted in italy?

To quote myself.

Maybe I need to up my contribution; does anybody else want to take a run at this?

if you mean someone needs to RIDE one to try it, yeah i'll do that :D

[gdw]

I built one up for a local rider last year without any problems. The headset and bottom bracket were easy to install, all the threads were clean, no filing or sanding was required. The dropouts on the fork were slightly out of alignment, angled inward, so it was shipped back and the new one arrived in about a week. The owner liked the bike a lot and is still riding it as far as I know. No snob appeal but good bang for the buck if you're into carbon.

Methinks the big guys are making a damn good profit fleecing the sheep who need the latest and greatest wonder frame made from the material de jour.

[cody.wms]

i thought they were just painted in italy?


I _thought_ they were still made at Pinarello HQ (the lower ones are certainly asian in origin). I remember a video of production from when the Dogma carbons first came out.

But, yes, I'm not sure what Made in Italy means anymore. I think it is a _very_ loose definition.

[thegunner]

I _thought_ they were still made at Pinarello HQ (the lower ones are certainly asian in origin). I remember a video of production from when the Dogma carbons first came out.

But, yes, I'm not sure what Made in Italy means anymore. I think it is a _very_ loose definition.

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=62439&start=45 maybe not a credible source :p but it sounds like they're all made in taiwan now. meh, not a big deal to me - but to a guy paying 5k+ for a frame...

[oldpotatoe]

Having worked in bike shops for many years, the mark-up on a bike is usually around 25%. The pricier the bike, the lower the percentage. If you invest $3K into a bike you sell for $4K after a year of display and dusting, that's a very poor investment. Most shops make their $$ on tubes, cables, and labor. The bikes bring people in the door.

That's absolutely not true. Margin is margin if a decent bike shop wants to stay in biz and the recognized minimum for stuff sold is 35%, not markup, that's something entirely different than 'margin'. 35% means at the end of the year you break even. No profit, no more debt.

Divide the cost by .65= 35% margin. A 25% 'markup' is multiplying by 1.25.

a $65 item is $100, a 25% markup on $65 is $81.25..not the same.

ALL bikes get the same margin regardless of price to maintain that 35% 'margin'.

A $3000 cost bike 'should' sell for about $4600. Yes if it isn't selling, discount it with the understanding that when you sell that bike for $4000, the shop is losing money.

[PaulE]

I think the Dogma and Prince are still made in Italy. Some of the lower models are made in the east. If these are QC rejects, I wonder what the problem with them is...

From my limited experience in dealing with China, I doubt they are QC rejects. More typical would be a joint venture where the factory makes one for you under the terms of the joint venture agreement, and one (or more) for them (probably in violation of the jv terms).

[William]

From my limited experience in dealing with China, I doubt they are QC rejects. More typical would be a joint venture where the factory makes one for you under the terms of the joint venture agreement, and one (or more) for them (probably in violation of the jv terms).


http://www.dyecrest.com/topeka-bingo.jpg





William

[texbike]

I'd love to see a bike publication closely examine the differences between one of these frames and a Pinarello. Obviously they look alike, but are they really?

Do they use the same quality carbon?
Is the geometry similar?
Is the finish of the knock-off of equal quality?
Have a mechanic build both with the same group to look for issues and, of course, road test them.

The chances of major publication doing this seems slim (lots o' Pinarello ads out there...)

Maybe Jan Heine? :)

There are several of these Chinese carbon bikes on our group rides and everyone that has them is really impressed by them. Most of the owners have been riding for years and have had numerous nice bikes in the past to compare them to.

Texbike

[fourflys]

Maybe Jan Heine? :)

There are several of these Chinese carbon bikes on our group rides and everyone that has them is really impressed by them. Most of the owners have been riding for years and have had numerous nice bikes in the past to compare them to.

Texbike

ahh, finally some feedback! :D I'd love to hear from somebody who has actually ridden one of these...

[PaulE]

Maybe Jan Heine? :)

There are several of these Chinese carbon bikes on our group rides and everyone that has them is really impressed by them. Most of the owners have been riding for years and have had numerous nice bikes in the past to compare them to.

Texbike

That's what's been holding me back, I need to know if they "Plane". :)

[Birddog]

If you really want to find out more about these Chinese frames, then mosey on over to Roadbikereview.com and check it out. They have had a running thread on them for about 2 years now and are on version 5.0 I believe. The consensus is that they are good solid frames and most of the build problems have been minor. The QC is a little less than you'd want from a "name" however. Many seem to think that the geos of the copies are slightly different ie, if Pinarello makes a 55cm, then the Chinarellos make a 54cm or a 56 cem. I can't recall anybody over there claiming that they were "exact" copies. The thing that bothers me the most is that several of these vendors now offer them fully decaled as Pinarellos even with a clear coat. At first it was just guys buying them and labeling on their own. The most popular seem to be the Chinarellos, Chirvelos, and the Chorbeas.

A riding buddy recently got a Cervelo clone and even stickered it, but he's getting some grief from many of us and now he is thinking of getting a sticker that says "FAUX" Cervelo. I really don't understand the posing involved with trying to fake. My pal has a real Cervelo, why would he want to sticker a fake the same? I don't get it. The guys that sticker them stateside are just using vinyl, not wet decals.

From my perusing those threads for most of 2 years, the consensus is that they are definitely a good bang for the buck. At the price you pay, you can throw the frames away if you crash one out. The ride reports are what you'd expect, few negatives mostly positives, some over the top. Lots of stiff but compliant type remarks. I don't recall anyone ever claiming that their Chinese frame "planed" though. I'm kinda sorta interested in a CX model, but I've yet to spot a review of one.
Birddog

[Idris Icabod]

After seeing the finish on a buddies genuine Cervelo perhaps the faux Cervelo actually has a better finish.

[gdw]

The Chinese carbon frames are the biking equivalent of those fake Rolex watches. Kind of tacky but many have cheap Seiko innards and are actually pretty good timekeepers.

[InspectorGadget]

If you really want to find out more about these Chinese frames, then mosey on over to Roadbikereview.com and check it out. I don't know if I want to wade through 51 pages, but I must admit I am curious.

[FastVegan]

I have purchased a "chinese carbon" MTB frame. Full carbon, 26" wheels, disc, hardtail, 1250grams. Total with shipping was $309.00 they even give you a free headset!
http://cgi.ebay.com/Brand-New-Full-Carbon-Mountain-Bike-MTB-Frame-19-/350459817628?pt=Mountain_Bikes&hash=item5199086e9c

On WW forum a few guys purchased the same frameset. One guy cracked the seat stay, other than that no one complains.

I am still waiting for it to come in(it has been 2 weeks) should be any day now.

I will post pictures when I get it.

Dave

[cody.wms]

From my limited experience in dealing with China, I doubt they are QC rejects. More typical would be a joint venture where the factory makes one for you under the terms of the joint venture agreement, and one (or more) for them (probably in violation of the jv terms).

Very interesting. I didn't realize this.

[WickedWheels]

It's interesting that they are all 54cm. I'd love to do an exact side-by-side comparison with a Pinarello to see if it's really one or just a copy. I know the BB is a different threading, but I wonder about the cable stops and derailleur hanger.

Either way, it seems reasonable. Last week I sold a Pinarello FP2 (carbon) with the new 105 group for $2350. To me that would be that the frame should retail for about $1000-$1200. If you skip the mark-up at the LBS, at the distributor and at Pinarello then you're looking at about a $350-400 frame from the manufacturer.