are scammers getting more sophisticated?

[ergott]

If you like, read this (sorry, but the thread starts at the bottom and goes up).
Let me know what you think.

Is there a way they could pay with a credit card and then reverse the charge on me once I ship the wheels?

Hello,

Thank you for your confirm.I agree with shipping cost using international priority but prefer with direct credit card payment.Do you have business relation who have credit card terminal and charge my card for complete this payment, If yes i will provided my credit card information today..


Looking forward for your good assist

Kind Regards,

Eldanis Yung

--- On Thu, 5/12/11, E Gottesman <ergottwheels@gmail.com> wrote:


From: E Gottesman <ergottwheels@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Singapore Orders
To: "somerset singapore" <somersetinfo@sbcglobal.net>
Date: Thursday, May 12, 2011, 10:31 PM
- Hide quoted text -


According to FedEx here are their rates (2 boxes insured). I do not know what duties will be incurred on your end.

International First - $701.05
International Priority - $649.08
International Economy - $561.24

I have no method of directly accepting credit card orders without PayPal. If you cannot use this service, you can use an International Bank Draft from SingPost.

Thanks,
Eric


On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 6:11 PM, somerset singapore <somersetinfo@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Hello,

This is my address below,
Eldanis Yung
ADUTA 3 Upper Aljuneid Link Blok B # 01-04
Joo Seng Warehouse
Singapore 367902

I,m sorry for this inconvenience because i prefer with direct credit card payment(without paypal) for this first order, also i will send you my front back copy of my credit card include my personal ID...


Looking forward for your good assist

Kind Regards,

Eldanis Yung

--- On Thu, 5/12/11, E Gottesman <ergottwheels@gmail.com> wrote:


From: E Gottesman <ergottwheels@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Singapore Orders
To: "somerset singapore" <somersetinfo@sbcglobal.net>
Date: Thursday, May 12, 2011, 7:41 PM


I need an address in order to estimate shipping.

Payment will be taken care of with PayPal. I do not process credit card orders.

Thanks,
Eric

On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 2:11 PM, somerset singapore <somersetinfo@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

I prefer with Shimano, thanks


--- On Thu, 5/12/11, E Gottesman <ergottwheels@gmail.com> wrote:


From: E Gottesman <ergottwheels@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Singapore Orders
To: "somerset singapore" <somersetinfo@sbcglobal.net>
Date: Thursday, May 12, 2011, 6:08 PM


Which freehub?

Thanks,
Eric

On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 2:04 PM, somerset singapore <somersetinfo@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Hello Eric,

Thank you for your confirm.I would like to buy,

- 2 pair Zipp 404 carbon clincher $2700
with total cost $5400+shipping cost use FEDEX delivery services

Please let me know the total cost of my order include shipping cost via FEDEX delivery service and estimated delivery when this packages will be ready to ship to Singapore and i will provided you my credit card information later for complete payment..

Looking forward for your good assist

Kind Regards,

Eldanis Yung


--- On Thu, 5/12/11, E Gottesman <ergottwheels@gmail.com> wrote:


From: E Gottesman <ergottwheels@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Singapore Orders
To: "somerset singapore" <somersetinfo@sbcglobal.net>
Date: Thursday, May 12, 2011, 5:51 PM


Reynolds:
RZR $6000
Thirty Two T - $2400
Forty Six T - 2500
Sixty Six - $2600
Thirty Two C - $2650
Forty Six C - $2750
Sixty Six C - $2850

Zipp:
202, 303, 404 tubular - $2300
404 carbon clincher - $2700

Shipping fees to be determined.

Let me know if you wish to discuss payment options.

Thanks,
Eric

On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 1:20 PM, somerset singapore <somersetinfo@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Can you order wheels to other store?i have many order wheel 700c with brand zipp, mavic, fulcrum and dtswiss..Please let me know if you could supply this wheels?


--- On Thu, 5/12/11, E Gottesman <ergottwheels@gmail.com> wrote:


From: E Gottesman <ergottwheels@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Singapore Orders
To: "somerset singapore" <somersetinfo@sbcglobal.net>
Date: Thursday, May 12, 2011, 5:18 PM


I am a custom shop and do not have wheels in inventory.

Thanks,
Eric
On May 12, 2011 12:45 PM, "somerset singapore" <somersetinfo@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Can you provided me all bicycle wheel 700c in stock? with model and price?
>
> --- On Thu, 5/12/11, E Gottesman <ergottwheels@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> From: E Gottesman <ergottwheels@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Singapore Orders
> To: "somerset singapore" <somersetinfo@sbcglobal.net>
> Date: Thursday, May 12, 2011, 11:41 AM
>
> What item were you interested in purchasing?
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 11, 2011 at 4:12 PM, somerset singapore <somersetinfo@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>
> Hello,
>
> My name is Eldanis Yung .I interest to buying some item from your shop and I have a few question before start this transaction :
>
> 1. Can you despatch and ship any package to Singapore by air with Fedex or DHL?
>
> 2. What kind payment do you accept visa, MC or Amex for this online transaction?
> It will be great and more secure if you accept direct credit card payment for this order.
>
> I look forward to hearing from you soon.
>
>
> Kind Regards,
>
> Eldanis Yung
>

[oldguy00]

Perhaps a stolen credit card? Perhaps his credit card which he will later claim was stolen?
Whatever the case, it obviously seems way to fishy to bother with.
Tell him you'll only take a money order from him, and said money order must fully clear the banks before any wheels ship.
:)

[ergott]

He said he's willing to send me a copy of both sides of his credit card along with his ID.

If he were to report the card stolen, does a credit card company like Visa reverse the charges on the vendor?

[ergott]

I'm still leaning towards scam, but I figure if I play this out (up to the point of actually ordering the wheels) it's a good education on how they work.

[oldguy00]

Tell him to send a picture of his credit card and ID leaning on each of his sets of Zipps, Fulcrums, Mavics, etc. lol

Who could ever forget the classic... :beer:

http://www.ebolamonkeyman.com/Ablert_Fred1.html

[rockdude]

I have a similar issue with a buyer, He is a South African living in Germany and wanting to send me a wire transfer. Sounds fishy to me so I just don't feel comfortable sending my personal banking info to him so he can do a wire transfer. How safe are wire transfer?

[Mike748]

I think scam. Credit card companies consider the cardholder their customer and will protect their customer. Merchants are just the gravy train and have no standing.

The other thing to consider is why is he contacting you for store bought wheels when he can order them on line from a dozen places? Places that have easy ways to determine if a CC is fraudulent.

I had paypal charge me back for a $100 saddle 6 months after the sale because the CC said it was fraudulent. It wasn't, but neither I nor the buyer could convince the CC company of that. Fortunately for me the buyer later sent me a check.

I believe wire transfers can be reversed too.

[oldpotatoe]

He said he's willing to send me a copy of both sides of his credit card along with his ID.

If he were to report the card stolen, does a credit card company like Visa reverse the charges on the vendor?

Get his info, name, etc and also the credit card issuing bank info, including phone number, call them. I had this same SCAM with somebody who wanted 3 SR groups...I get these all the time. It's a scam.

[bicycletricycle]

sounds like a scam SCAM.

[yngpunk]

He's willing to pay $600-$700 in shipping, which is almost a 25% of the cost of the wheelset. I understand that the wheels may cost more in Singapore, but not 25% more, plus the potential for being charged a duty on top of that.

[ergott]

My reply:

I'm sorry, but I have no way of directly accepting a credit card.

Thanks,
Eric

I'll keep you all updated. I must say that they are getting better at this and I hope my thread helps others identify these tactics.

[Kirk Pacenti]

I don't know what it is, but I get more inquiries like this from Singapore than anywhere else.

Fortunately, I have a friend in Singapore who owns a bike shop. I always tell the scammer that I will ship to my friends address, he can pay my friend, and my friend will pay me.

This has always caused the supposed buyer to back out of the deal. If you want to know my friends name and that of his shop email me and I will give it to you.

Cheers,
KP

[bicycletricycle]

He's willing to pay $600-$700 in shipping, which is almost a 25% of the cost of the wheelset. I understand that the wheels may cost more in Singapore, but not 25% more, plus the potential for being charged a duty on top of that.

this is always a good way to think about it, why else would he want to pay a premium for wheels unless he wasn't really planning on paying for them.

[Aaron O]

I know of a shop locally that has had a LOT of problems with someone from Singapore...they continually get orders and payments end up canceled, phoney complaints sent through...etc.

I'm a little nervous because I just sold a frame to a buyer there, but his transaction felt right and the feedback read right.

[ergott]

I don't know what it is, but I get more inquiries like this from Singapore than anywhere else.

Fortunately, I have a friend in Singapore who owns a bike shop. I always tell the scammer that I will ship to my friends address, he can pay my friend, and my friend will pay me.

This has always caused the supposed buyer to back out of the deal. If you want to know my friends name and that of his shop email me and I will give it to you.

Cheers,
KP

If he answers my last email, I'll offer that as a suggestions and see what they say.

[xjoex]

I would not touch it with a ten foot pole.... It may be a legit credit card that they are not going to reverse the charge on. But the card is probably stolen.

-Joe

[MattTuck]

Sounds legit to me. NOT!

I know you're an excellent wheel builder, but it just doesn't pass the sniff test. Why would a guy on the other side of the world reach out to YOU, without even a specific wheel request? (I prefer Shimano.... what does that even mean? You should tell him you only have Campy)

[Aaron O]

I think it's very possible someone from Singapore would reach out to someone here for wheels...for the same reason a US racer would reach out to Della Santa, or Peg. in the 80s. As far as prefer Shimano, there might be language barrier issues and he might be a little confused.

I'm not sure it's up and up, but I'm also not sure it isn't. A lot of people don't like paypal (including me) and credit cards are certainly an accepted payment method, and convenient for buyer. That being said, as stated earlier, I know of a shop who has had numerous problems from Singapore.

[weiwentg]

I grew up in Singapore ... pm me. I want to report this guy to the Financial Fraud branch of the police, but I only have a telephone number.

[weiwentg]

I think it's very possible someone from Singapore would reach out to someone here for wheels...for the same reason a US racer would reach out to Della Santa, or Peg. in the 80s. As far as prefer Shimano, there might be language barrier issues and he might be a little confused.

agreed, but asking to buy that many wheelsets, and apparently being willing to pay a huge premium for shipping is fishy. I know we do have Zipp dealers in Singapore. I imagine we can get Reynolds. I might buy hubs from overseas if I were back home - the shipping would be less, and I imagine some of the fancy stuff like the Alchemy hubs would be harder to come by.

[Aaron O]

agreed, but asking to buy that many wheelsets, and apparently being willing to pay a huge premium for shipping is fishy. I know we do have Zipp dealers in Singapore. I imagine we can get Reynolds. I might buy hubs from overseas if I were back home - the shipping would be less, and I imagine some of the fancy stuff like the Alchemy hubs would be harder to come by.

It's definitely a little odd...I'm just not certain it's fraud either. You'd know what's available there far better than I would...I just know everytime I sell something, I get bids from Singapore and the buyers invariably say there is no availability domestically.

[ergott]

Sounds legit to me. NOT!

I know you're an excellent wheel builder, but it just doesn't pass the sniff test. Why would a guy on the other side of the world reach out to YOU, without even a specific wheel request? (I prefer Shimano.... what does that even mean? You should tell him you only have Campy)

I was surprised that when I asked what freehub he was even that specific. He knows at least that much about wheels.

The main reason I'm playing this out as far as I am is to see the result. I have no intention of purchasing 2 sets of Zipp wheels and sending them out. I am amazed at the effort put into this one though. I keep thinking that I'm not going to hear back from them with each email I send.

No sweat off my back.

[veloduffer]

Before proceeding, I would check with the credit card company that he plans to use about their chargeback policy and international transactions. The buyer could claim to not receiving the wheels or claiming damage, and then disputing the charge.

From a credit risk management perspective, I would recommend passing on this. This is a one-off deal and not likely to bring additional business to you. So you essentially have little upside (other than the profit on this wheelset) and more downside risk. In finance, you would charge a much higher profit margin to compensate for the risk.

[SEABREEZE]

I've seen many of these simular requests related to my business, come to me via email from various parts of the world.

They all ask, do you except credit cards.

[weiwentg]

Forwarded this to the head of the financial fraud branch in the Singapore Police Force. They're aware of this scam - the guy believes that this bunch of people is based out of Indonesia. They're cooperating with the FBI and other parties. Please pass the word to retailers you know. It's true that there are things in the US you can't necessarily get in Singapore, and there are likely to be legit Singaporean buyers out there.

http://www.buyusa.gov/oregon/singaporescreditcardfraud.html

[spamjoshua]

A land of law abiding citizens and a respectful police force.

I expect that reporting issues to the Singapore police will brings results.

It is an amazing place.

Best. Food. Ever.

[ergott]

It's always the bad apples. Ever since I refused payment with a credit card the email exchanges died.

[amgc36]

Glad to hear that you avoided this scam.

I think that complicated payment schemes are a dead giveaway.

Wire transfers happen all the time and exist for this purpose - to receive the money in advance of any merchandise being delivered. In theory, divulging the info needed for a wire should be safe - if we assume that banks actually require secure, photo-based IDs to initiate any transactions.

[ergott]

Glad to hear that you avoided this scam.

I think that complicated payment schemes are a dead giveaway.

Wire transfers happen all the time and exist for this purpose - to receive the money in advance of any merchandise being delivered. In theory, divulging the info needed for a wire should be safe - if we assume that banks actually require secure, photo-based IDs to initiate any transactions.

No so anymore. If you give your bank routing information to them there is a way for them to take money out of it. I read up on that one as well.

[InspectorGadget]

Ever since I refused payment with a credit card the email exchanges died. Walks like one, talks like one . . . .

Maybe a more sophisticated example, but still a duck.

[amgc36]

Eric,

Stop making me (more) paranoid!

William

[Ozz]

No so anymore. If you give your bank routing information to them there is a way for them to take money out of it. I read up on that one as well.
If you want to receive wire payments for overseas sales, you might consider setting up a bank account just to receive these funds. Don't keep any money in the account. Use it for payment instructions, and when the funds arrive transfer them to your primary bank account.

As an added measure of security, you can ask your bank to put Check and ACH Debit blocks on the account. Money can go in, but only you can transfer it out....

Probably overkill for your needs, but I thought you should know there are ways to protect your accounts.

:beer:

[ergott]

If you want to receive wire payments for overseas sales, you might consider setting up a bank account just to receive these funds. Don't keep any money in the account. Use it for payment instructions, and when the funds arrive transfer them to your primary bank account.

As an added measure of security, you can ask your bank to put Check and ACH Debit blocks on the account. Money can go in, but only you can transfer it out....

Probably overkill for your needs, but I thought you should know there are ways to protect your accounts.

:beer:


I didn't know about the check ACH debit blocks. I have an extra account I could set up that way. Imagine to their surprise when they wire money in and can't get it back!

I would have though that if they attempted a draw you would get charged an overdraft fee.

[Ozz]

I didn't know about the check ACH debit blocks. I have an extra account I could set up that way. Imagine to their surprise when they wire money in and can't get it back!

I would have though that if they attempted a draw you would get charged an overdraft fee.
the blocks will reject the transaction and it will never get to your account...

just make sure it is a business account and not a personal account. There are more legal protections for personal accounts, but it is a hassle to dispute the item and wait to have your account made whole. Your bank will have more services to prevent the fraud for business accounts. There may be some fees involved for the ACH Block...the bank I work for offers the Check Block for free.

most the scammers just want your account info so they can create fraudulent checks or electronic items...the wire would probably never come in.

contact me offline if you want some more info....