Using Paypal Gift to buy merchandise

[LouDeeter]

Since Paypal started allowing payment as a "gift", which doesn't incur the fees, I have had many people ask me to pay them this way when they are selling items. I guess I'm just old fashioned, but that seems a bit dishonest to me. It is designed to allow parents to send money to their college age kids or to send real gifts to people without having to mail a check. I always figured paying the 3% fee as a seller was just part of the cost of doing business with Paypal and can be priced into the asking price. Anyone else have a thought on this?

[Aaron O]

Since Paypal started allowing payment as a "gift", which doesn't incur the fees, I have had many people ask me to pay them this way when they are selling items. I guess I'm just old fashioned, but that seems a bit dishonest to me. It is designed to allow parents to send money to their college age kids or to send real gifts to people without having to mail a check. I always figured paying the 3% fee as a seller was just part of the cost of doing business with Paypal and can be priced into the asking price. Anyone else have a thought on this?

On principle, I agree with you...but old fashioned values don't include:

1. Violating your own terms and conditions at will with no recourse for the seller.

2. Monopolistic price gouging and predatory relationship with Ebay where Moneyorders and cash are no longer accepted to promote their auxilary fee service.

3. Random payment holds, which can take over a month to resolve, while you aren't getting interest and your cash is in a non-FDIC insured holding cell.

4. Completely inaccessible customer service.

When I am treated fairly and by the agreed upon terms and conditions, I'll reciprocate.

[Mike748]

I'm with Aaron on this. I don't mind sticking to the man every now and then. Ever notice PP takes money from your bank account in .01 seconds but it takes them 3-4 days to put money back in your bank account?

BTW, I try to pay with credit as often as possible so that PP doesn't get to keep the fee. Not that I feel much better about my bank getting it...

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

Exactly what Aaron said. I'm about fed up with Paypal's (and fleabay's) ridiculous fee structure. I do not sell on fleabay anymore simply because of the way they operate. My favorite is the hold on your account for absolutely no reason, makes you look lke a D-bag to sellers. Happend to me and never got a reason, was told it may be three weeks, made a seller wait, all of a sudden, poof money's in my account 4 days later with no explanation. I'd rather sell and buy here, better people and better stuff. And sometimes even cheaper.

[rugbysecondrow]

With the personal payment category, you have the option to select the sort of payment made, I select "Payment owed"or "other". I am not lying about the transaction. Also, if it is with somebody with whom I have purchased before or befriended via the forum, the Personal Payment option seems legit to me. if it is a person with whom I am unfamiliar, then I would likely opt for the fee based transaction.

For instance, I have purchased from you before, you have a strong rep and I have a certain level of comfort with the transaction, so I would feel comfortable with the personal option so long as you did.

[Ozz]

How about just using your Online Bill Payment service offered by your bank....I have make several payments to individuals doing this...and at least thru my bank it works. Sure, the receiver needs to take the check to the bank and deposit it, but it is free for me....

[bicycletricycle]

i go both ways on this. for the service that paypal provides 3% seems pretty reasonable. I know some people have had some pretty bad experiences with them as a company and that can be annoying. I used to work at a pretty big ebay store and we had a few problems here and there with them but in the end they didn't really seem any worse than the average bank. when you send a personal payment paypal is not responsible for unshipped items etc. so it does cost them little to no money to process these transactions.

that said it does cost them something and in that way i do feel like it is a little unfair.

[d_man16]

hummh Lou sticky topic....a lot of folks don't like the way that PP operates with holds etc and now the whole ebay thing. I'd have to say that however wrong it may be I never feel like I'm doing anything bad by using the gift option....call it what you will but that's how I feel about it and I think that quite a few other folks also feel the same way.

[kramnnim]

Hmm, does it cost Paypal money when funds are transferred from bank to bank?

Also...aren't the typical forum transactions considered "personal"? We aren't running businesses selling bike parts...

[sc53]

FYI on head-fi.org everyone asks to be paid via the "gift" option, and PayPal apparently has barred/banned a few people for illegitimate "gifts." So if you overdo it, PP may catch on to you and poof your account.

[93legendti]

If you don't like Paypal, you shouldn't use it. But buying or selling something and avoiding Paypal's fee by claiming it's a "gift" is not something you would like if you owned Paypal.

Paypal is offering a service. If you don't like Paypal, take the time to go buy a USPS money order; pay for postage to mail it; wait for the MO to arrive and hope the item arrives as described.

Dislike for Paypal is a poor justification for using their services for free.

[dave thompson]

I've been a PayPal member from almost the very start. IMO, they provide a valuable service to "us", allowing us to instantly pay someone for goods or services, much the same as credit cards except "we" can accept the electronic payment. I think they're entitled to charge for this service. Over utilizing the 'gift' or 'payment owed' privileges can invite a reduction or cessation of them.

I'm sure folks have had problems with PayPal, I haven't. Pay 'em and enjoy instant money.

[Aaron O]

If you don't like Paypal, you shouldn't use it. But buying or selling something and avoiding Paypal's fee by claiming it's a "gift" is not something you would like if you owned Paypal.

Paypal is offering a service. If you don't like Paypal, take the time to go buy a USPS money order; pay for postage to mail it; wait for the MO to arrive and hope the item arrives as described.

Dislike for Paypal is a poor justification for using their services for free.

According to Paypal's agreed upon Ts and Cs, which are a contract, I am not subject to payment holds. I am still being subjected to payment holds. When they honor their contract, I'll gladly honor mine. When they also stop playing the "we're FDIC insured" game, I'll gladly start playing by the rules (their cash is insured, the accounts aren't...giving virtually no protection for users).

What you suggest is akin to telling someone in 1976 that if he doesn't like Bell, he shouldn't use phones. As things stand, Ebay's policies make them the only option in town. There is no doubt in my mind that as ebay increasingly becomes amazon.com's retarded younger brother and increasingly irrelevant, other payment services will begin to thrive...and when there are options, your point would be legitimate. In the mean time I look forward to when they face real market place competition and/or when the paypal-ebay unholy union is broken up. Bring back Teddy R...because right now, a fundamental principle of our economy is (or was) protecting consumer interest...ebay and paypal certainly don't encourage, or allow for, that.

I am also not a radical or anti corporate type. I have no problem with making a dollar and I have no desire to regulate companies to death. Paypal and ebay are particularly noxious and offensive to me and I actually enjoy every dollar they're entitled to and don't get. I enjoy every class action law suit they lose. Their CEO is offensive, their policies are offensive, the customer service is offensive and I hope they loose money.

By the way, based on recommendations here, I use dwolla whenever possible.

[Volant]

If I buy something from an individual for my personal use; I have no problem using personal>payment owed, because that's exactly what it is. I don't use the gift option because it's not a gift. I also only use this option when I'm paying from my balance on PP.
I'm also in the group who doesn't appreciate the extortion between ebay and PP (I had an auction cancelled by ebay because I offered to accept checks or money orders; ebay cancelled it and said I MUST use only Paypal for payment (which ebay owns). I also had a large payment held giving the reason that the buyer must leave positive feedback before funds would be released - then after the positive feedback, they held pmt another 2 weeks without reason.).

[93legendti]

According to Paypal's agreed upon Ts and Cs, which are a contract, I am not subject to payment holds. I am still being subjected to payment holds. When they honor their contract, I'll gladly honor mine. When they also stop playing the "we're FDIC insured" game, I'll gladly start playing by the rules (their cash is insured, the accounts aren't...giving virtually no protection for users).

What you suggest is akin to telling someone in 1976 that if he doesn't like Bell, he shouldn't use phones. As things stand, Ebay's policies make them the only option in town. There is no doubt in my mind that as ebay increasingly becomes amazon.com's retarded younger brother and increasingly irrelevant, other payment services will begin to thrive...and when there are options, your point would be legitimate. In the mean time I look forward to when they face real market place competition and/or when the paypal-ebay unholy union is broken up. Bring back Teddy R...because right now, a fundamental principle of our economy is (or was) protecting consumer interest...ebay and paypal certainly don't encourage, or allow for, that.

By the way, based on recommendations here, I use dwolla whenever possible.
So 2 wrongs make a right?

It's NOT like Bell in '76, as you yourself mentioned Dwolla and there are many ways to buy something online and on eBay.

http://pages.ebay.com/help/pay/pay-on-ebay.html

All sellers offer at least one of the approved electronic payment methods—PayPal, ProPay, Moneybookers, or Paymate—or accept credit card payments through their merchant credit card account. (When you pay with a credit card using the Pay Now button, your seller never sees your credit card number.)

http://pages.ebay.com/help/pay/methods.html
Moneybookers

Moneybookers lets you send payments quickly and securely online using a credit card or bank account.

Learn more about paying with Moneybookers.

Paymate

Paymate lets you send payments quickly and securely online using a credit card or bank account.

Learn more about paying with Paymate.

ProPay
ProPay lets sellers accept credit cards without an Internet merchant account.

Learn more about paying with ProPay.
FWIW, I do not think the OP was asking about eBay transactions.

Since Paypal started allowing payment as a "gift", which doesn't incur the fees, I have had many people ask me to pay them this way when they are selling items. I guess I'm just old fashioned, but that seems a bit dishonest to me. It is designed to allow parents to send money to their college age kids or to send real gifts to people without having to mail a check. I always figured paying the 3% fee as a seller was just part of the cost of doing business with Paypal and can be priced into the asking price. Anyone else have a thought on this?

[Aaron O]

Which only happened because they of law suits...so they tossed on a few non-competers that were chosen because they ape paypal. Also, I haven't looked at them in a bit, but as memory serves, those small services are only viable for large sellers, not small sellers.

It's exactly like Bell...take a look at their percentage of the industry, which is a direct result of the ebay connection. Paypal is fine to use outside of ebay.

I'm not going to take the two wrongs comment seriously.

[jlwdm]

Paypal is a service I use a fair amount and have not had any problems with.

In these periodic threads I am amazed at the justifications posters use to argue what they are doing in paypal is okay.

Instead of reposting all of this info just search for paypal in titles only and you can read these same types of posts over and over again.

Jeff

[rice rocket]

If the seller asks for a personal payment, I'll usually pony up the amount of the fee, just so the net amount the seller collects is the agreed upon price. It's never more than a couple bucks, unless you're buying a full bike. Not that I'm untrusting of you all, but it gives me a channel of recourse if things go sour.

[dave thompson]

If the seller asks for a personal payment, I'll usually pony up the amount of the fee, just so the net amount the seller collects is the agreed upon price. It's never more than a couple bucks, unless you're buying a full bike. Not that I'm untrusting of you all, but it gives me a channel of recourse if things go sour.
That's a very good reason unto itself. If the 'gift' or 'payment owed' option is used, that implies that nothing was purchased and the buyer has no recourse.

[dave thompson]

Paypal is a service I use a fair amount and have not had any problems with.

In these periodic threads I am amazed at the justifications posters use to argue what they are doing in paypal is okay.

Instead of reposting all of this info just search for paypal in titles only and you can read these same types of posts over and over again.

Jeff
I am also surprised. Just because the company doesn't meet an individuals idea of what's right doesn't give them the option not to do right also. Big companies can present big targets for folks who want to 'give it to the man'. Whatever happened to personal integrity?

[amgc36]

I agree with the comments that there is the danger of being ripped off if you send a gift and never get product. Having bought and sold a fair amount of big ticket items here and esp. in highend audio, I would either publish an asking price or offer a purchase price and specify mode of payment; or publish a CASH price and remark that other forms require the service charge; or specify cash or wire only. I'd rather be transparent about my preferences as to how the transaction should proceed, thereby enabling negotiation over the various parameters. It's easy enough to declare one's modus operandi opaquely without getting into the gory details as to one's motivations.

William

[gearguywb]

Just MHO, if you use the service then pay the fees. It aggravates me when a seller asks a set price, wants to be paid by Paypal, and then asks for an additional percentage to cover fees.

[Vientomas]

Bring back Teddy R...because right now, a fundamental principle of our economy is (or was) protecting consumer interest...ebay and paypal certainly don't encourage, or allow for, that.

Don't hold your breath - The US Supreme Court in AT&T MOBILITY LLC v. CONCEPCION ET UX recently held that individuals cannot come together to create a class and file a class action lawsuit if a corporation includes an arbitration requirement in its contracts or licensing agreement.

[Aaron O]

Don't hold your breath - The US Supreme Court in AT&T MOBILITY LLC v. CONCEPCION ET UX recently held that individuals cannot come together to create a class and file a class action lawsuit if a corporation if a corporation includes an arbitration requirement in its contracts or licensing agreement.\

We've also allowed Comcast-NBC to merge, likely are allowing AT&T to merge with T-Mobile and of course the recent oil mergers...it's a new age, and not necassarilly one that is to the advantage of consumers.

[Vientomas]

\...it's a new age, and not necassarilly one that is to the advantage of consumers.

On that we can agree.

[Elefantino]

Don't ask me to do the gift thing. It's dishonest, plain and simple. Want me to pay the fees? Fine. Ask ahead of time.

[rockdude]

Integrity, that is what we are talking about. Either you get it or you don't.

If your going to stick it to the corporation man, can I trust that you are not going to stick it to me, especially if some difficulties happen during the transaction?

Don't ask me to pay you with a gift payment. Include the 3% into your sales price or accept check or other forms of payment.

[Uncle Jam's Army]

I'm pretty sure paypal has changed their policies such that someone pays the 3% for the "gift" transfer, either the sender or the recipient.

[Pete Serotta]

And I truly do not recommend it. Additionally if I see it offered in a FS, the item will be delisted.

What individuals do is up to them but buyer is taking a risk for a small percent and it strikes me as a questionable seller.

Pete

[eddief]

all the huffing and puffing about this is a waste of everyone's time. yes honesty and securitiy are at the crux of the discussion.

here's what i believe the deal to be. Paypal Corporation is quite ok with the gift option no matter what as they basically don't have to do anything in these situations...it's an electronic transaction and barely any resources, if any, are required to make it happen.

on the other hand, if you want their fartless protection from bad sellers, then, of course, you ought to pay for that protection.

and if you are concerned someone on THIS forum is going to screw with you, then don't use the gift option with that seller.

but please all of you get off your high horses about whether or not my honesty is involved in transactions using the gift option.

if you trust your bros on the forum, then all of our buying and selling is merely gifting with a bit of money thrown in for lubrication.

if you don't trust em, then don't use the gift option. my impression is that Paypal Corporation knows exactly what is going on and if they were concerned they'd eliminate gifting.

they make a gazillion dollars from a billion gazillion tranactions that do not involve people who trust each other.

And I truly do not recommend it. Additionally if I see it offered in a FS, the item will be delisted.

What individuals do is up to them but buyer is taking a risk for a small percent and it strikes me as a questionable seller.

Pete

[dave thompson]

all the huffing and puffing about this is a waste of everyone's time. yes honesty and securitiy are at the crux of the discussion.

here's what i believe the deal to be. Paypal Corporation is quite ok with the gift option no matter what as they basically don't have to do anything in these situations...it's an electronic transaction and barely any resources, if any, are required to make it happen.

on the other hand, if you want their fartless protection from bad sellers, then, of course, you ought to pay for that protection.

and if you are concerned someone on THIS forum is going to screw with you, then don't use the gift option with that seller.

but please all of you get off your high horses about whether or not my honesty is involved in transactions using the gift option.

if you trust your bros on the forum, then all of our buying and selling is merely gifting with a bit of money thrown in for lubrication.

if you don't trust em, then don't use the gift option. my impression is that Paypal Corporation knows exactly what is going on and if they were concerned they'd eliminate gifting.

they make a gazillion dollars from a billion gazillion tranactions that do not involve people who trust each other.
Eddie, PayPal know exactly what's going on and they are not pleased with the personal forms of payment being abused. I abused it when I requested that buyers of items that I was selling on this forum pay me via one of the personal buttons. I don't do that anymore. The only gripe I have with PayPal now is the requirement that EBay sellers use PayPal as the only method of receiving their payments. Beyond that, I'm good.

Below is a copy of an e-mail they sent me in early April:

Dear <David Thompson >,

We recently changed our pricing so that all PayPal customers can receive
money from friends and family within the US for free. PayPal merchants
receiving money as payment for a purchase, continue to incur fees.

We’re not sure if you are aware of this, but we noticed that some of
your customers are sending you personal payments for purchases.
Unfortunately, this violates our rules, and we need your help correcting
this. Please don’t ask or allow your customers to use personal payments
to pay for their purchases.

If we continue to see such activity after <April 18, 2011>, we may have
to disable your ability to receive personal payments, and then you will
pay fees for all money received through PayPal.

You can find more information about payment types and fees in sections
4.2 and 8 of our User Agreement – just click “Legal Agreements” at the
bottom of any PayPal page.

If you have any questions, concerns, or think we may have made a
mistake, please contact us at P2P@paypal.com. Thank you for helping us
resolve this matter.

Sincerely,

P2P Risk Team

PayPal

[eddief]

and how would they know whether someone is purchasing something or gifting money to you?

i am not really so concerned about a few dollars in my pocket, but really trying to understand the ethics and motivations of the parties involved.

oh sh$t i lied. i am concerned about the dollars involved. see how honest i am?

[thinpin]

Anything I buy here commands a higher than normal fee to the seller as my A/C is Australian. Or so I have been told. I will offer to use the gift option as payment. I aslo appreciate the little extra effort to ship overseas. Paypal get their 1% commision.

[djg21]

Neither Paypal nor Ebay is a monopoly or is engaging in predatory conduct.
There are plenty of alternatives, and last I checked, you remain free to do business (or not do business) with either or both of those entities.

If you don't like Paypal's policies or business practices, your recourse is to use other means to transact your on-line business. It is not to dishonestly misrepresent the nature of your transaction in order to take advantage of a free service that Paypal provides in limited circumstances. There is a legal term that actually does apply to the later-described conduct -- "theft of services."

[Dave B]

Paypal is one of those tings you have to take the good with the bad. They provide a service that is good on the outside, but you have to play by their rules.

I think their rules are set up to protect them and to make sure they are making money. Their goal is to make money. Nothing else.

What I do not like is their zero tolerance and lack of common sense.

When I tried to hold a raffle for the IF crown jewel I asked money to be sent through paypal in their approved method. They contacted me that I was running a gambling site and if this was for charity to have the appropriate forms sent to them. So i contacted the agency (non-profit) had them fax inthe forms that paypal required. Then paypal inforomed me that I might have doctored them. So I had the executive director contact paypal on the number Paypal gave them and follow up.

In the end paypal stood by their stance and further more threatened to delete my account, which was 10 years old if I continued to raise money for charity through their site.

I said that this was fine, but could i have it in writing so that I could have the agency's lawyer look over it.

never heard back from them.

They froze my account and i had to cover the donations myself until paypal saw I took their name off of the blog entry and put the agency's phone number up instead. It was very annoying and I followed all of their rules, but they changed them as they saw fit to benefit themself. They do not always honor their criteria and guidelines.


yeah I still use paypal and like i said it isn't all good or all bad.

Screwing paypal over might be the goal for some, but I say it is your fault if you are disapointed by their customer service. Paypal/Ebay makes millions of dollars. It is their goal and sole job. I wouldn't be surprised if they are the new type of service that tries to wear you down into submission so that you don't worry about your small amounts being lost or frozen. Imagine the volume of issues they deal with and sitting on all of this money for a few days would probably help out quite a bit.

[Stan Lee]

I use PP a couple of times a month and I typically gift money if I'm purchasing something from a friend. On this forum I feel like we are all friends so if I am buying something from the classifieds I always offer to gift the money but I never expect it in return. eBay/PP transactions always get the fee as does other purchases through businesses which are the majority of my PP transactions.