The Venticinque

[CNY rider]

Just got the email from Serotta and clicked through to the video (which is hard to watch on my crappy Internet service but that's what you get for living in the middle of nowhere I suppose).
Bike looks hot in the video.
Also two thumbs up on the steel rear, and making that the standard with carbon as an option.
Question: I can't find any pix on the website. Are there any other pix of this bike out there? Thanks.

[Jason E]

I love my Serotta's, I have two, and this always seems taboo for some reason, but...

For all the money people spend on Serotta's, you'd think they'd have a decent website. Whatever company they are using either owes them an explanation, or they need to switch...

The Venti is probably awesome. You would not know it if you went looking for it.

[c-record]

Considered one of these. My steel CSI from eons ago was one of my favorite bikes. I've spent more on frames but not sure if I would look back 5-8 years from now and feel like I really was happy with spending that much on the bike. A Responsorium has been on the short list for a while but priorities changed that to consideration of something such as a De Rosa or a Waterford.

I'm a pretty serious fan of Serotta so maybe I should get one just because the chance is there. If I were to try and replicate/improve my CSI I'd talk to Mr. Bedford. A Kirk is on the someday plan as well-that seems like a seriously cool bike.

[Scott Shire]

http://cdn2.media.cyclingnews.futurecdn.net/2011/03/09/1/serotta_anniversary_full_view_600.jpg

Good gallery here, mostly towards bottom of page (http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/photos/on-show-north-american-handmade-bicycle-show-part-6)

[130R]

I'd rather have that serotta in the background with the quill stem.

[rice rocket]

This video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhGZBOy-CRI&feature=related


Random note: The Roadbikereview guys need to hire a reporter girl.

[jpw]

I love my Serotta's, I have two, and this always seems taboo for some reason, but...

For all the money people spend on Serotta's, you'd think they'd have a decent website. Whatever company they are using either owes them an explanation, or they need to switch...

The Venti is probably awesome. You would not know it if you went looking for it.

+++1

[jpw]

I'd rather have that serotta in the background with the quill stem.

I don't care for the seat tube on the V.

[CNY rider]

http://cdn2.media.cyclingnews.futurecdn.net/2011/03/09/1/serotta_anniversary_full_view_600.jpg

Good gallery here, mostly towards bottom of page (http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/photos/on-show-north-american-handmade-bicycle-show-part-6)

Thank you.

[SamIAm]

I am actually quite tempted. When I got the first email promoting the carbon stays I kind of dismissed it, but to my eye that is a sweet looking frame. Hmmmm.

[CNY rider]

I am actually quite tempted. When I got the first email promoting the carbon stays I kind of dismissed it, but to my eye that is a sweet looking frame. Hmmmm.

Agree.
Changing the stays makes all the difference in how I view that bike.

[bicycletricycle]

i dont understand these almost integrated seat tubes. They dont save weight because you still have the same amount of seat tube/seat post overlap, I dont think that that steel seat tube is stiffer or more comfortable riding than a nice oversize carbon post so what gives? Is it just a style thing? why not a real integrated post with a topper of some kind?

[Jason E]

i dont understand these almost integrated seat tubes. They dont save weight because you still have the same amount of seat tube/seat post overlap, I dont think that that steel seat tube is stiffer or more comfortable riding than a nice oversize carbon post so what gives? Is it just a style thing? why not a real integrated post with a topper of some kind?

+1. All in or fold, but halfway? Eh...

Super hot chain- and seat-stays.

[Black Dog]

i dont understand these almost integrated seat tubes. They dont save weight because you still have the same amount of seat tube/seat post overlap, I dont think that that steel seat tube is stiffer or more comfortable riding than a nice oversize carbon post so what gives? Is it just a style thing? why not a real integrated post with a topper of some kind?

Why not just make it traditional or fully integrated. How much weight does this really save? It looks goofy.

[1happygirl]

It looks goofy.

agreed. maybe rephrased:non traditional. just not what im used too

[oldpotatoe]

I don't care for the seat tube on the V.

Yep, other than marketing, what's the point?

[jpw]

Yep, other than marketing, what's the point?

Now I didn't start this thread, and I'm not eager to say anything out of turn that might get it closed, but if that's marketing it isn't working for the product IMHO.

Technically, yes, what is the point of it? It's neither one thing nor the other.

[CNY rider]

These are all going to be custom built.
If I got one it would be a non-sloper.
So I would assume that since the length of that tube is not functionally important, you could get it a "normal" length?

[jpw]

These are all going to be custom built.
If I got one it would be a non-sloper.
So I would assume that since the length of that tube is not functionally important, you could get it a "normal" length?

I would expect so.

[oldpotatoe]

Now I didn't start this thread, and I'm not eager to say anything out of turn that might get it closed, but if that's marketing it isn't working for the product IMHO.

Technically, yes, what is the point of it? It's neither one thing nor the other.

Mean it's a partial part of the 'standard set' that seem to be 'essential' for bike frames these days. This 'un missing a few...sloping toptube, BB30(or PFBB30), seat mast, internal cable route, tapered to 1 1/4 or 1 1/2 headtube bearings..ya know.

[1centaur]

i dont understand these almost integrated seat tubes. They dont save weight because you still have the same amount of seat tube/seat post overlap, I dont think that that steel seat tube is stiffer or more comfortable riding than a nice oversize carbon post so what gives? Is it just a style thing? why not a real integrated post with a topper of some kind?

If I were to venture a guess..

If it's Serotta, it's not about the weight it's about the ride. I read claims about "connectedness" of frames with ISPs, which I take to mean a tight physical connection between the triangles and the saddle. Is the difference between an ISP and a well fitted post really discernible to a rider? I'll punt on that. But if a builder thinks there is more connectedness, the semi-ISP makes sense because a) it does not have to be cut (can be re-sold and it's comforting not to cut, plus cutting metal is not a well worn path at the LBS), and b) toppers are heavy and have clamp mechanisms and set-backs that may not work for a rider - do you really want to design frame measurements to topper setback?.

If you can say one thing about Serotta's design tendencies it's that they tend to favor rational approaches to design challenges. What don't we/they have that could be an improvement, and how can we accomplish that intelligently? Fashion is not their thing.

[oldpotatoe]

If I were to venture a guess..

If it's Serotta, it's not about the weight it's about the ride. I read claims about "connectedness" of frames with ISPs, which I take to mean a tight physical connection between the triangles and the saddle. Is the difference between an ISP and a well fitted post really discernible to a rider? I'll punt on that. But if a builder thinks there is more connectedness, the semi-ISP makes sense because a) it does not have to be cut (can be re-sold and it's comforting not to cut, plus cutting metal is not a well worn path at the LBS), and b) toppers are heavy and have clamp mechanisms and set-backs that may not work for a rider - do you really want to design frame measurements to topper setback?.

If you can say one thing about Serotta's design tendencies it's that they tend to favor rational approaches to design challenges. What don't we/they have that could be an improvement, and how can we accomplish that intelligently? Fashion is not their thing.

This is a discussion forum right? Not trying to get anybody's panties in a knot but from all ti frames(Various-then Serotta), to sloping top tubes(Giant- Serotta) suspension rear ends(Moots-Hors Catagorie) to carbon rear ends(Pinarello-Serotta) to carbon/ti mix frames(Seven-Serotta) to all carbon, Serotta certainly has been a follower in some 'designs' that I think are market, not performance, driven.

These 'innovation's' may have been done better, more efficiently, some much more cumbersome and not in evidence today(Hors Cat, Moots YBB sells well). But some, like carbon rear ends on ti and steel, undoubtedly a response to the market, what was selling at the time. 'Fashion' or 'what sells today' is certainly a part of Serotta's design philosophy.

NOT a bad thing if done well, but a response to the market. Otherwise Serotta would selling all steel frames exclusively.

[Pete Serotta]

Thanks for posting ....nothing here even comes close to closing this thread. It is good information and I truly do not know why the extended Seat tube but some fashion / market reason were imput.

If I personally got one of frames , I would not prefer the extended tube, but others do. :cool: (I am older than dirt so fashion for me is usually not fashion for someone else.


Just as sloping top tubes have lovers and non lovers...



I asked on another thread the value of the three I closed, as of now there has not been a single reply from original poster of closed thread on reason, value add, or even a reply back :confused:

[1centaur]

NOT a bad thing if done well, but a response to the market. Otherwise Serotta would selling all steel frames exclusively.

I disagree with that. I believe Serotta thought Ti, Ti and carbon, and all carbon brought something to the table that steel did not. They were not first with these innovations, but that did not mean they were following fashion. They were observing innovation and putting progress into their quiver in their particular way. The MeiVici is a good example of that process. The world has gone to fun tube shapes and superlight bikes, while Serotta has focused on ride quality and flawless construction at the expense of minimum weight and constant change. Serotta seems to me to be slower to follow fashion than just about any major builder out there.

A response to the market is not the same as chasing fashion. The market has rationality imbedded in it and there's nothing fashionable about Serotta sharing that rationality. Putting a semi-ISP on a bike because lots of brands have jumped on that bandwagon would be fashion. Thinking about why builders are using ISPs, agreeing that there's something worthwhile there and delivering the good without the bad would be classic Serotta thinking and would be a long way from fashion.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . in this gallery from NAHBS and cyclingnews.com

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/photos/on-show-north-american-handmade-bicycle-show-part-6

BBD

[oldpotatoe]

I disagree with that. I believe Serotta thought Ti, Ti and carbon, and all carbon brought something to the table that steel did not. They were not first with these innovations, but that did not mean they were following fashion. They were observing innovation and putting progress into their quiver in their particular way. The MeiVici is a good example of that process. The world has gone to fun tube shapes and superlight bikes, while Serotta has focused on ride quality and flawless construction at the expense of minimum weight and constant change. Serotta seems to me to be slower to follow fashion than just about any major builder out there.

A response to the market is not the same as chasing fashion. The market has rationality imbedded in it and there's nothing fashionable about Serotta sharing that rationality. Putting a semi-ISP on a bike because lots of brands have jumped on that bandwagon would be fashion. Thinking about why builders are using ISPs, agreeing that there's something worthwhile there and delivering the good without the bad would be classic Serotta thinking and would be a long way from fashion.

Don't know how long you have been around 'Serotta' as a brand but I have for 20 years and from discussions with some at Serotta, market 'pressures' are a measurable part of Serotta design philosophy. Have to be.

A perfect example to me is a carbon rear end on an all ti bicycle. Web site 'speak' aside, and recognizing ride quality as 100% subjective and looking at the timing of this and other introductions of various Serotta designs, the market obviously has had and continues to have an impact.

You also wrote, "The world has gone to fun tube shapes and superlight bikes, while Serotta has focused on ride quality and flawless construction at the expense of minimum weight and constant change."

Sorry, Serotta doesn't have a lock on quality construction or subjective ride quality. To imply the others are all doing it for fashion, when Serotta is somehow taking a 'higher road' isn't an accurate description of the market or the frames in the market.

Also, "Thinking about why builders are using ISPs, agreeing that there's something worthwhile there and delivering the good without the bad would be classic Serotta thinking and would be a long way from fashion."

It's an extended seat tube...Colnago has been doing this with their big steel frame designs for over 20 years. I think you think a seat mast on a steel frame is more than what it really is and Serotta can somehow design one like this, make it work, better than others, when the others are just chasing fashion. I think if there is something to a seat mast(and I don't think there really is), many frame designers can make one that does whatever it is that it does, not just Serotta............just MHO.

Serotta does some interesting things but there is no 'best' frame out there of any material. Most frame makers have some really smart people designing their product and most perform flawlessly, whether they are made of 'fun shapes', are superlight or change regularly.

[1centaur]

My best response would be to repeat what I wrote. I was careful with my words; I believe you overinterpreted them to extract implications they do not have.

I'll leave it at this: if Serotta is slapping an ISP on this frame because it's trendy so they think it's good marketing, I would view that as a departure from the choices I have witnessed over the years and the ethos they have put out in profiles and their factory web tour video.

[sg8357]

Yep, other than marketing, what's the point?

'cause it's the fashion ?

I am waiting to see an ISP with an S&S coupler for packing. :)

[bicycletricycle]

packing an ISP bike is a pain. Hard to get it into a UPS-able box.

I have heard and can think of 3 reasons for ISP's

1. "Frame/rider connectedness"
2. Weight savings
3. looks

Connection to the bike lands itself in the highly subjective realm of ride feel which is real tough to judge. Things as simple and as well established as carbon chain stays are still hard to be sure about, hell, Isaac built a carbon frame with aluminum chain stays that rides beautifully. Does an all ti legend ride worse than one with carbon chainstays? are you sure? If the claim to better connectedness is true than surely more seat tube with a topper would lead to more connectiidness, right?

It seems to me that it would be possible to decrease weight in a frame with an integrated seat tube. The less adjustable the more the weight savings. The overlap between the post and seat tube on regular frames is redundant and adds weight. Super custom frames like the parlee TT take full advantage of this by being basically non adjustable. The kinda ISP that we are talking about does not save any weight. It is true that you would use a shorter post but I am guessing that modern seat posts weigh less per inch than the seat tube they replace on a frame like this.

Does it look cool? I think that frames that have a full ISP with a minimalistic topper look pretty cool (TIME, Gaulzetti aluminum). Non adjustable ISP frames like a few i have seen by Geekhouse and Parlee look super awesome. Semi integrated ISP frames like we are considering here don't look great to me.

but that is just one mans opinion.

A huge amount of "innovation" is really just meaningless hype created to make people think their current stuff is now inferior and in need of immediate replacement or the result of designers striving to make something different just for the sake differentness so that they can carve out a niche in an otherwise crowded market.

IMHO.

Non of this is really pointed at any one bike or manufacturer in particular, I like some bikes with integrated seat posts and I don't like others. In the end it really just comes down to what it looks like and how well it was made. I don't need (and I don't think most of us need) technical justification to accept changes in the gear we purchase.

[SamIAm]

This thread, in a sense, underscores the opportunity that Serotta is missing by not directly participating on this forum.

They could have linked the requested pictures.

They could have explained the idea behind the seat mast and indicated whether it was optional or not.

They could have, without being a cheerleader, explained their history of innovation etc. etc.

I mean I want one of these things and I guess I would have like to have seen some passion from them. Sell me a little.

Of course much respect that they allow these types of conversations to appear in their forum, but why not engage a bit.

[c-record]

I'd like to hear from one of our builders on the forum but I'm guessing the design of the seat cluster would preclude the need for a sleeve inside the top tube/seattube/seatstay joint? Or the junction would just be mitered/welded just as a regular junction and them reamed in finishing to fit the seatpost? Not sure if this is an advantage but may be how it is done?

[Mikej]

Is that the $10,000 frame?

[SamIAm]

Is that the $10,000 frame?
Half that.

[rice rocket]

Venticinque...so $25 frame? ;)

[michael white]

My best response would be to repeat what I wrote. I was careful with my words; I believe you overinterpreted them to extract implications they do not have.

I'll leave it at this: if Serotta is slapping an ISP on this frame because it's trendy so they think it's good marketing, I would view that as a departure from the choices I have witnessed over the years and the ethos they have put out in profiles and their factory web tour video.


It's extremely weird and a little disappointing to me to see a thread on Serotta forum which seems to be mostly discrediting a Serotta design? woah . . . I mean, sure it would be ok for Ben to come defend the product, but that's not his style.

folks, keep it classy! There's room for questioning and disagreement, but can we at least be a tiny bit sensitive to our hosts? geez . . .

[Pete Serotta]

and I think I can make it happen. PETE (I miss seeing you in Paso Robles.)


I am actually quite tempted. When I got the first email promoting the carbon stays I kind of dismissed it, but to my eye that is a sweet looking frame. Hmmmm.

[Pete Serotta]

Venticinque...so $25 frame? ;)
:)

[oldpotatoe]

It's extremely weird and a little disappointing to me to see a thread on Serotta forum which seems to be mostly discrediting a Serotta design? woah . . . I mean, sure it would be ok for Ben to come defend the product, but that's not his style.

folks, keep it classy! There's room for questioning and disagreement, but can we at least be a tiny bit sensitive to our hosts? geez . . .

How about say, Dave Wages, frame builder, can chime in to talk about the pluses and minuses of a seatmast on a steel frame?

I don't see this as a reason for anybody to 'defend' anything, discussion forum, a discussion.

[ergott]

I don't need anyone else to chime in on it's merits. If Ben approves, I bet it's a killer bike. Personally, I'd go for full isp or non, but that's me. I'm not buying one. A white seatpost probably would have made it look better.

If I may be constructive, I think the graphics on that show bike are a disaster. Ovals with a fade, the fork details (crown look on a carbon aero fork), the transition from paint to ss on the seat stays being parallel to the ground instead of perpendicular to the stays... it's a mess to me.

A bike that is supposed to evoke the history of Serotta would get a classic panel job from me or no panels and just the Serotta letters. I like the raw stays, but as I said above I like the transition to perpendicular to the tube.

I'm sure the people that will eventually get these have more options.

[bicycletricycle]

yes on the terrible graphics, I am a trained design professional so I am allowed to voice this opinion.

I don't need anyone else to chime in on it's merits. If Ben approves, I bet it's a killer bike. Personally, I'd go for full isp or non, but that's me. I'm not buying one. A white seatpost probably would have made it look better.

If I may be constructive, I think the graphics on that show bike are a disaster. Ovals with a fade, the fork details (crown look on a carbon aero fork), the transition from paint to ss on the seat stays being parallel to the ground instead of perpendicular to the stays... it's a mess to me.

A bike that is supposed to evoke the history of Serotta would get a classic panel job from me or no panels and just the Serotta letters. I like the raw stays, but as I said above I like the transition to perpendicular to the tube.

I'm sure the people that will eventually get these have more options.

[Pete Serotta]

:beer: pete

How about say, Dave Wages, frame builder, can chime in to talk about the pluses and minuses of a seatmast on a steel frame?

I don't see this as a reason for anybody to 'defend' anything, discussion forum, a discussion.

[SamIAm]

and I think I can make it happen. PETE (I miss seeing you in Paso Robles.)

Hi Pete, I missed seeing you and Tom as well. I hope the weather was a bit warmer and less windy.

I will be going to Greensboro, NC for CR in a couple weeks. Maybe you could make it there for a day.