I need a husband

[wordbuzz]

Okay, so maybe this is the wrong forum for that but I really want to get your attention, because what I need is advice badly. The husband I once had was very good at giving advice, but he is no longer here, so I'm asking for some advice-giving volunteers. Seriously. I really need help.
What do you do if you get fitted for a bike by a shop that specializes in SICI fittings, seems to have a fabulous reputation, and it turns out the one thing you specifically said you didn't want on the bike exists in the extreme?
I'm short--5'1 (almost) and getting this bike was my dream. It was a reward I gave to myself for making it through some very difficult times (health and life issues), and also because I was turning 60. (Yikes!)
Anyway, I chose a Serotta--you all know the reasons--what's not to love? I now have a beautiful Serotta Legend Ti, and it's beautiful to look at, but whenever I ride it, I have a gnawing fear in my gut that I'm about to be thrown. The one thing I said I absolutely didn't want, and that I was assured wouldn't be a problem, is toe overlap. I know the theory--toe overlap isn't supposed to be a problem unless you're going really slow and making a really sharp turn. Well, that's wrong. This afternoon, I was out on a less than perfect city street (the winter really tore up our streets this year), I swerved to avoid a huge pothole, hit another one that took control of my wheel; my foot was in the wrong place in my pedal stroke, the wheel turned and hit my foot, and I almost went down. Yes, I know, I ALMOST went down, but I caught myself. However, the "almost-fall" made me turn slightly out into traffic, and I almost got hit.
I know, lots of almosts, but this has happened to me too many times, not necessarily the same scenario, but once I got "doored" by a guy getting out of his parked car, once I swerved to avoid some road debris that I saw too late, etc.
And then there's the other very aggravating thing and that is when I'm going up a very steep hill, I sometimes weave a little, usually involuntarily because I'm getting very fatigued. And when this starts happening, I really don't have a lot of control as to where my foot is in the pedal stroke when the wheel turns into it and hits my toe. I hate hate hate worrying about the hills because of toe overlap! I should only be focusing on the challenge of the hill, not my stupid pedal hitting my toe. I love riding, and I live in an area of hills and mountains. And when I go away on bike trips, it's usually to a place with mountainous terrain. It's one of the reasons I ride. I like the challenge. I ended up borrowing a friend's older bike most of last summer--a bike not as nice as mine, but at least I could just focus on pedaling instead of worrying about whether or not the wheel was going to hit my foot.
So this the deal: I've had the bike for two years. I almost didn't pick it up after I first tried it outside. I was horrified. I actually thought of letting the guy keep my $2000 deposit, cutting my losses and going to my LBS and buying off the rack. I should have. I could have gotten 2 bikes for the balance I ended up paying. So the fitter kind-of shamed me into picking up the bike. He said I just needed to practice, and that I would become a better and stronger rider and that the overlap wouldn't affect me then. He also said that I told him I liked the fit when I tried it out. Well, yes, I did, but that was with the bike on a stand! I wasn't turning the wheel! Yes, it was comfortable, but not functional for ME.
BTW, the bike has 650 wheels--the fitter had assured me that with 650 wheels, I would have no toe overlap. The off-the-rack bikes I've borrowed have all had 700 wheels (except for 1 cross bike I tried).
I'm probably rambling here, so I'll stop. Here's a picture of the overlap. I think it's dangerous. The guys in my bike group think it's dangerous. They tell me to get a new bike and get rid of this one. I hate the thought--I paid all that money--shouldn't I have the bike that I wanted?
Please, I hope someone can come up with some ideas....
Thanks very much for reading this, but I'm hoping this is an issue that other people might have (actually I do know of one other woman that had an unhappy experience with this bike fitter, but she just cut her losses, sold her bike and bought a new one. I'm afraid my bike might be too small and have too much overlap to be worth anything to anyone.)
Thank you all for your advice. Here are 2 pics:

[ultraman6970]

:hello:

[chuckroast]

I think it already has 650B wheels from her description.

This is kind of off the wall but could you put on shorter crank arms?

[TMB]

The frames at your size are so small that you will have toe overlap all the time wanted or not. No way to avoid it.

Maybe doesnt make sense to you but for you to think it over, the frame size changes but the wheels are kept the same size all the time.

You have a solution tho. Get a bike with 650 wheels or maybe do as it was done in the mid 80s when some manufacturers came with a 700C wheel in the back and a 650 in the front, then the frames get smaller and kind'a more proporcionated.

Sorry girl, it is what it is, at your size u can't avoid it. Ever with 700C wheels.

Hope this helps.

This is utter nonsense.

Btw, if you read the OP again you will see that she has 650's.

Waiting for Smiley or Mr. Kirk, or one of the many other fine experts to chime in.

[Louis]

You have a solution tho. Get a bike with 650 wheels .

The bike in question already has 650 wheels.

[Jangles13]

Edit: I was slow, already said above.

[martinrjensen]

Probably has a lot to do with having a small frame. I ride a 58 cm and I just went and measured my frame. I have about 3in clearance measured the same way you did. I have slight toe over lap (all my bike do) but I have never had an issue with it.
I suspect you are just going to have to buck up and get used to it, or change bikes. Having street pedals means that the position of your foot varies so there will be times where it's a worse problem than others but still, that's not much clearance.
I suppose cutting off the front half of your foot is out of the question? How about running a 100mm crank length? OK, I'll go away now....

[ultraman6970]

Personally is not unsafe but after the 1st toe caught in the front wheel she will learn how to turn, is just practice, like parallel parking.

[Dave Wages]

This is utter nonsense.

Btw, if you read the OP again you will see that she has 650's.

Waiting for Smiley or Mr. Kirk, or one of the many other fine experts to chime in.

Without seeing the complete bike or the geometry of the bike it's a bit hard to comment, but I will agree that this bike seems really tight, especially considering the 650b wheels. Front wheel overlap depends on how long the top tube is, and what the designer did to the front end geometry, (HT angle and fork rake), to try and deal with the issue.

We should probably wait for more info before anyone condemns the fitter or Serotta on this one.

Dave

[Louis]

How long are your cranks?

If you're very short then you should be using short cranks. If the ones you are using are on the long side, then you might be able to shorten them a bit and gain a few mm there. (not much, but every bit will help)

One solution is to shame the bike shop into giving you as big a discount as possible on your next frame. Except that you might have to deal with the same fitter, which may not be what you want to do.

You could then have them move all the components over to the new frame (for free, of course). With the correct warnings, you then sell your existing frame for as much as you can and forget about the money you've lost.

Good Luck

[wordbuzz]

I could probably live with some overlap, I always have.
I DO have 650 wheels.
I can get shorter crank arms, but they have to be specially made. My thought about them is that I will have to be spinning faster to keep up with everyone. Is that right? I'm in pretty good shape, but I'm more of a hill climber than a fast spinner. And it seems that my spinning is getting slower and slower. I do work at it, but it's those fast twitch muscles (or is it slow twitch) that you kind-of start losing when you get into my age cat!

[martinrjensen]

Not necessarily. everything else being equal, you will simply be in a higher gear then your riding buds.I could probably live with some overlap, I always have.
I DO have 650 wheels.
I can get shorter crank arms, but they have to be specially made. My thought about them is that I will have to be spinning faster to keep up with everyone. Is that right? I'm in pretty good shape, but I'm more of a hill climber than a fast spinner. And it seems that my spinning is getting slower and slower. I do work at it, but it's those fast twitch muscles (or is it slow twitch) that you kind-of start losing when you get into my age cat!

[bmeryman]

I've got a couple thoughts that I'm sure you've considered, but just to check:

What length crank arms are you riding? At this level of bike fit I'm sure they fitted you with an appropriate length, but that's always something to consider.

Another question: do you find that overlap occurs when you're riding with cleats and without cleats? I know that I find myself riding with my foot more forward without cleats. If you know that overlap occurs both with and without them, have you looked at your cleat placement? I had my mountain bike cleats back too far a while ago and it caused some overlap issues.

Anyways, that's all I've got for quick answers. Good luck figuring this out! I'm sure you'd rather be out there enjoying the bike than worrying about things like this!

[wordbuzz]

I meant to say I could live with some toe overlap--certainly not this much--but I would prefer not to. I'd rather be doing a combination of perhaps stretching slightly more with a longer top tube? But I guess it's too late for that. I wish someone had asked me what sacrifices I was willing to make to not have toe overlap.

TMB: when you said "this is utter nonsense", what did you mean?

[TMB]

Without seeing the complete bike or the geometry of the bike it's a bit hard to comment, but I will agree that this bike seems really tight, especially considering the 650b wheels. Front wheel overlap depends on how long the top tube is, and what the designer did to the front end geometry, (HT angle and fork rake), to try and deal with the issue.

We should probably wait for more info before anyone condemns the fitter or Serotta on this one.

Dave


I was condemning neither the fitter or Serotta.

I quoted a previous post, my comment was directed to the nonsense in that post.

[Louis]

Personally is not unsafe but after the 1st toe caught in the front wheel she will learn how to turn, is just practice, like parallel parking.

This is so condescending and IMO inappropriate.

[Dave Wages]

I was condemning neither the fitter or Serotta.

I quoted a previous post, my comment was directed to the nonsense in that post.

My post wasn't directed at you personally, more of a caution that without knowing more about the frame and fork in question, we should all withhold our final conclusions.

Cheers,
Dave

[Dave Wages]

Waiting for Smiley or Mr. Kirk, or one of the many other fine experts to chime in.

I also thought that as a builder, I might have some expertise to share. :)

[TMB]

I also thought that as a builder, I might have some expertise to share. :)

I think I did well to even remember the other two.

I am mostly comatose from Turkey overdose right now.

Apologies.

[martinrjensen]

Yes, I suppose a fork with more trail would help? Probably the only thing to do other then change frames, and of course, that throws the whole bike handling into a different ball park too. I doubt if this is a viable suggestion but it's the only other one I can think of. My post wasn't directed at you personally, more of a caution that without knowing more about the frame and fork in question, we should all withhold our final conclusions.


Cheers,
Dave

[MattTuck]

I could probably live with some overlap, I always have.
I DO have 650 wheels.
I can get shorter crank arms, but they have to be specially made. My thought about them is that I will have to be spinning faster to keep up with everyone. Is that right? I'm in pretty good shape, but I'm more of a hill climber than a fast spinner. And it seems that my spinning is getting slower and slower. I do work at it, but it's those fast twitch muscles (or is it slow twitch) that you kind-of start losing when you get into my age cat!


First of all, if this was a design constraint during the fitting, then there was clearly a miscommunication somewhere. Not sure where it happened, but at this point, shorter cranks seems like the most obvious place to start (if you can shorten them) and possible getting clipless pedals to atleast try to keep your foot position consistent.

My 2 cents, if eliminating toe overlap is THE primary design goal, there is no reason to accept this from a custom fitter/builder. There are stock bikes with less overlap. If you're going to pay for a custom, you'd expect a custom solution to your specific design requests.

[bike22]

uhh, those are not 650b wheels, at least the front one visible..

[Dave Wages]

Yes, I suppose a fork with more trail would help? Probably the only thing to do other then change frames, and of course, that throws the whole bike handling into a different ball park too. I doubt if this is a viable suggestion but it's the only other one I can think of.

I agree that keeping the frame a constant and just changing the fork wouldn't work without negatively affecting the handling of the bike. Unfortunately, there's not much that can be done with a frame and fork like this should the rider decide it's "unrideable". That being said, "unrideable" is a threshold that is different for all of us.

I'm still interested to see what the bike as a whole looks like, or if the OP can just give some information like ST & TT length, and the HT and ST angles. That would provide much more info to comment on.

Dave

[Dave Wages]

uhh, those are not 650b wheels, at least the front one visible..

I think Mavic does make Ksyrium Elite's in 650, or is there something you're seeing that I'm missing?

[JLP]

Personally is not unsafe but after the 1st toe caught in the front wheel she will learn how to turn, is just practice, like parallel parking.

I'm with TMB on this one. Are you a 60 year old hill climbing woman? If not, you are in no position to decide for someone else what they are comfortable with.

My wife fell over on a beautiful waterford with toe overlap. Nothing wrong with the bike, but it was not going to work for her.

[wordbuzz]

Yes, they're definitely 650 wheels!
I have thought about getting smaller cranks specially made, (I am on 165's now), but everyone has advised against it because they say I would have to spin faster. Not true? I know this would only buy me couple of centimeters, right?
The fork I have is also the only fork made for 650's with this much rake.

[bike22]

I think Mavic does make Ksyrium Elite's in 650, or is there something you're seeing that I'm missing?
650b =/= 650c

[wordbuzz]

I'm with TMB on this one. Are you a 60 year old hill climbing woman? If not, you are in no position to decide for someone else what they are comfortable with.

My wife fell over on a beautiful waterford with toe overlap. Nothing wrong with the bike, but it was not going to work for her.

Thank you SO much JLP and TMB! The attitude that I should just suck it up is the reason I have worked so hard to try and keep this bike even though I KNEW from the beginning that it was not the bike that I was comfortable on. And I kept saying it, but then when someone says to me, "you're weaving because you're not STRONG enough to go up the hill," I get this "oh yeah, just watch me" and I keep trying to get better and better at it! But it doesn't take the overlap threat away. And there's nothing worse than being almost at the summit, and struggling, just like everyone else is, and then you hit your toe and you lose all momentum. And if you're really tired because you're in the Adirondacks and this is mile 68, you fall. Because you broke your momentum, you hit your toe, and you just STOP.
Just saying that makes me angry. And I can't tell you how many times that has happened or come close to happening. And for that, I paid a lot of money.

[Louis]

How about changes to the drivetrain to give you low. low. low gears on the hills, so there is no need to do S's?

You can go to a 1:1 ratio front to back, or even lower if you like. There are options that will allow you to climb nearly any hill known without weaving.

[TMB]

If you still have the build sheet or critical dimensions ofthe frame and fork, then post them here.

There are a number ( no names this time!) of very skilled builders and fitters who come to this site and they will be able to look at the details of your bike, and you, and give you some specific commentary on possible solutions, if any.

Sadly, if it is a long way off, you may ultimately be better to sell it and get a new frame and fork. But do not make those sorts of decisions until you have received some solid advice from qualified experts on here.

[rice rocket]

I ride small frames. Like 48-50cm.

If you do consider getting another bike, check out Scott. They specifically engineer the toe overlap out of frames with head tube angle. XXS is 70.5 deg, XS is 71 deg. Fork rake is 45mm.

I had a XS CR1, size 41 feet, 170mm cranks, 700c wheels, and no toe overlap. Looks like they carry this philosophy throughout all their road bikes. My sister is shorter than you (4'11) and I had her get a Scott Speedster in XXS. She has no problems as well (and she's a total amateur, who hasn't ridden a bike since her childhood, so if anyone was going to come across a toe overlap situation, it would be her).

I don't know how much it would cost for them to "reconfigure" your current bike w/ a shallower head tube, but it might be worth asking. Try contacting Serotta directly though, if your fitter didn't help you the first time, there's no reason to give him more of your hard earned dollars.

[WickedWheels]

Get in touch with Serotta directly and work with them and your LBS to come up with a solution. There was some obvious mis-communication or misunderstanding. Either way, the brand was not represented well and has a stake in this.

As a fitter and someone with a 5'1.5" wife who rides... this looks like really tight clearances. I have my wife on 700c wheels (a 44cm Cannondale Synapse) and I think she has more toe clearance. There are ways to resolve this issue, although handling may be someone compromised. Perhaps you will end up with a more stable-handling bike? A longer wheelbase?

Either way, draft a professional, courteous letter and/or e-mail that gets sent to both the shop and Serotta. Do it in writing so that no one "talks you down" from your position or guilts you into keeping the bike. Save a copy for your yourself in case you have to go to your credit card company for a "charge back". This is an extreme-case resolution but may be an option.

Good luck!

[WickedWheels]

Could you post pics of your bike, yourself on the bike and the area where you are? Perhaps someone can find you a solution locally.

[vqdriver]

Maybe it's just me. but I feel that if it's to the point that we're talking about altering the ht angle and even replacing the bike altogether then why not try a fork with more rake? Handling/stability will change but it will directly impact her primary concern.






Honestly, I'd be pissed as hell if that happened to me.

[1happygirl]

As a woman, go figure from my moniker, I have always been told to use 700c wheels. People argued against 650c. Glad to see ya got that right. That's why Terry Bicycles, Georgina Terry, used to look so funny. I forgot what size front wheel it is but it is like decidedly smaller (like half the size) of the 700c wheel to avoid this problem. I, riding small frames, always get my shoe brushing up against panniers in the back. Anyway, sorry this happened. If you do look at other bikes, Terry used to have a custom option. It wasn't near as nice as the Serotta (hardly anything is) but its worth a look. Not as light either. It is an assumption on my part that they are/were not as popular due to the strange looks of the geometry. As for cranks/wheels/pedaling, I forgot the physics (rotational wt. etc) but Bike Friday (as in 16-20" wheels) had a take on that. If you are a hill climber, it was a moot point I think or something v. gearing. DO NOT QUOTE ME ON THAT but I hope you can work out the Serotta. If not check Terry for this specific reason. One of the reasons Terry also does the variable size wheels is so the geometry and handling is not compromised along with the toe overlap I think.

PS I'm not disparaging the fitter, but anyone who told you up front you would not have overlap, ugghhh. It was a slight mistatement. From trying to fit myself, you are gonna have some unless you go Terry. How much you are comfortable with is another story. The picture you posted looks unsafe to me.
In the future I would like a Serotta but sounds like a good fitter (not saying this particularly here) is the key component.
Reward yourself by flying you and your bike on vacation to a good fitter if you really want to keep the bike.

PPS Im really incoherent after being home all weekend deathly ill. Plus I really know nothing. Listen to the knowledgeable people here that are so smart. This is just my 02cents.

[wordbuzz]

Thanks, everyone, for taking this seriously.
Here are the numbers:
Seat tube length: 41.5
Seat Tube Angle: 73.5
Tob Tube Length: 48
Head Tube Angle: 71

I understand that the numbers are challenging, but it seems that there should have been some discussion before building as to what I was willing to give up or compromise on so that I wouldn't have the toe overlap. And I think it makes the bike really dangerous. A good friend that I sometimes ride with is an ER doc and calls my bike a death trap; he keeps telling me not to ride it, that it will only take one good fall and biking season will end for me, perhaps forever. He's always quoting the Serotta line "friends don't let friends ride junk." Not very funny to me.
The thing is, I DO love this bike. It's so well put-together, the welds are all perfect, it's strong and mighty and beautiful. And light as a feather. A great climber. If I could afford it, I'd buy another Serotta in a heartbeat, and just hang this one on the wall. But I can't. So I'm trying to work it out.
I'm certainly willing to compromise the ride with a different rake, but so far, there is no fork made for 650 wheels with a rake more than the one I have. I think more of a rake might make the ride a little more sluggish, right? I think it's a small compromise considering the toe overlap.
What good is the perfect fit if it's not the perfect ride?

[Smiley]

Man that is one small bike and its almost impossible to have a 48 cm TT and not have TCO. The only choice the fitter would of had is to use a 7 cm stem and add 2-3 cm to the TT cause so far nobody knows what the stem this bike was designed around. To my eye when we design small bikes we figure some TCO like about 10-12 mm BUT I bet the OP has way more than that which makes for alot of TCO to me. Hate to hear about stuff like this.

Please OP what BARS are u using as I assume POCO's or Bontrager WCS type short reach and I hope you are using a 7 cm stem too. And lastly I assume since its a Serotta you have a OEM carbon fork which limited your rake choices?

[wordbuzz]

Yes, 1happygirl, I actually looked at Terry bikes. Georgena Terry rocks! She takes women bikers seriously and designs for them. I didn't get a Terry because I really wanted a Ti bike. I also thought that having the bike designed specifically for me would guarantee me a better fit. I wanted to buy American, and everything I read about Ben Serotta and the Serotta bike itself made me a believer. I've been a lurker on forums for a long time, and I really did a lot of research. I just didn't know enough to ask the right questions. I consider this bike to be my first bike, really, at least first bike that was such an investment. My other bikes were always off the rack, and weren't this quality. Like I said, it was a reward for surviving some pretty challenging life issues. I felt like I had one shot and that was going to be it. I bought based on reputation, but I didn't really understand bike design numbers and how everything worked together. I was leaving that up to the fitter and Serotta. Kind-of like the way you trust your doctor to be up to speed on your medical care. You can't know it all. You have to trust the experts. So I put my research time into finding the experts. Now I am sadder, poorer, but much wiser.

[soulspinner]

Hey Mr wages, how about a different pedal just to see if locked in she doesnt have toe overlap. We werent privvy to the part of the fitting that asked about pedals....................

[rice rocket]

Do you know what stem length is on the bike now? And the fork rake?

48cm top tube w/ a 73.5 STA, yikes, that has very little frame reach. You might be a candidate for 24" wheels.

[vqdriver]

it wouldn't be difficult to make a custom steel fork which brings all kinds of possibilities.

[Smiley]

rice rocket, the Terry bikes with the un even wheels are OK to solve the TCO problem where they use a 24 inch front wheel but these bikes did not handle that well at high speeds. I think the issue not knowing all the final build details is Serotta used a 650 carbon fork which is limited to one rake like 43 mm and they designed around this rake with a HTA to give the best handling and TCO was what is is. Hindsight might of had a steel fork with unlimited rake cabability with a 70 HTA BUT keep in mind that unless we know what the stem length use was a 48 cm TT is still very short. This is a tough call either way.

[BillG]

Even though I'm 6'3" I have ridden a bike with toe overlap and I hated it for all the reasons you gave.

I think 160 cranks will not make a huge difference to you in terms of spin, but they may relieve some toe overlap. Also are you not using clipless pedals? You might try to use clipless pedals with your cleats relatively forward. Then you would have less toe sticking out in front of the pedal.

[1happygirl]

Even though I'm 6'3" I have ridden a bike with toe overlap and I hated it for all the reasons you gave.

I think 160 cranks will not make a huge difference to you in terms of spin, but they may relieve some toe overlap. Also are you not using clipless pedals? You might try to use clipless pedals with your cleats relatively forward. Then you would have less toe sticking out in front of the pedal.


Again, I know nothing. Peeps like Smiley et. al. KNOW. Im just a girl that that had similar disfit issues all over. The whole thing I see and gather from the OP is what I have seen in the past is trying to make the rider fit the bike and/or tampering with the bike which technically makes it fit but changes the ride characteristics from what you want, what was intended, or why you bought a custom in the first place. Tampering ?increase injuries. You want a custom (talking from MHO) to be comfortable and avoid injuries with a good fit.
Im not good at cutting losses, but the more time goes on, I hate tampering with stuff to attempt to kinda make fit. I am now more likely to cut losses and start over.
PS making the leap to clipless pedals just to make fit provides a whole new learning curve on an unstable bike which may not clip out in time (depending on your reflexes) to avoid crashing anyway. Just speaking from experience.

pps when I just looked on the terry site, i didn't notice diff size wheels anymore. Im not pushing terry as obviously I looked at one YEARS ago and didnt buy. as I said previously not as nice as Serotta and heavier. Claimed (IIRC) not unstable at speeds.
?4SMILEY: what speed do you think it would be unstable?
Im just trying to learn, and talking from a girl person who is not fast. Don't know about the op but, how fast would you have to hammer? For the average recreational cyclist would it matter?
Is it important to get in shape, be comfortable and enjoy, or speed.

I see the peeps on the Serotta forum as above average in speed, fitness, and bike handling ability.

[BillG]

PS making the leap to custom pedals just to make fit provides a whole new learning curve on an unstable bike which may not clip out in time (depending on your reflexes) to avoid crashing anyway. Just speaking from experience.

I totally agree on the "if you buy custom you shouldn't have these problems" score. But, I think everyone who rides a lot should use clipless pedals. They are just better. They are very easy to get used to and a whole lot easier once you do get used to them. But YMMV.

[1happygirl]

I totally agree on the "if you buy custom you shouldn't have these problems" score. But, I think everyone who rides a lot should use clipless pedals. They are just better. They are very easy to get used to and a whole lot easier once you do get used to them. But YMMV.

Yep, sorry I corrected my post I meant clipless pedals. Yep YMMV. Which brings up a point. Im just playing devil's advocate since a) I have been home all weekend in bed b) I'm miserable sick c) have nothing else to think about but I still know some peeps that can hammer on rides and refuse clipless pedals. So smooth they can 'adjust' straps on the fly. Hahah. Merckx won how many races without em? Hmmm. whole other thread, how much technology do we really need to have enjoyment riding and does this really complicate or simplify fit issues?

Aggghhh. I hope I get well soon.

[palincss]

I think it already has 650B wheels from her description.

This is kind of off the wall but could you put on shorter crank arms?

Those are most definitely not 650B tires; 650C if anything. Excellent point about the short cranks: they would definitely help with TCO, and most people with frames small enough to merit 650C wheels would also benefit from shorter crankis. I wonder what size cranks are on there now.

[Fixed]

165
cheers

[vqdriver]

Kinda looks like the double sided pedals with clipless one side and platform on the other side.

[palincss]

I will agree that this bike seems really tight, especially considering the 650b wheels.


Look at the tires, Dave. There's no 650B tire that small available today; and even the old Michelin Axial Raid, etc., were close to 32mm.

[palincss]

My thought about them is that I will have to be spinning faster to keep up with everyone. Is that right?

No, it's not right. You may need to have a smaller rear sprocket to be in the same equivalent gear, but not by much: 53 x 12 and a 700x23 tire gives you a 116" gear; 53x11 with a 650c x 23 tire gives you a 117" gear.

[palincss]

Yes, I suppose a fork with more trail would help?


No, that would make it worse. More trail == less fork offset, which would bring the wheel closer in. More offset == less trail. And I am a big fan of low trail, I think changing fork offset solely to reduce TCO is probably very ill advised.

[palincss]

I think Mavic does make Ksyrium Elite's in 650, or is there something you're seeing that I'm missing?

Yes, you're missing that letter after the "650". 650B is very different from 650C.

[Dave Wages]

Look at the tires, Dave. There's no 650B tire that small available today; and even the old Michelin Axial Raid, etc., were close to 32mm.

My bad on saying they are 650b, they have to be 650c. I will also second the note that the OP does in fact have clipless pedals on the bike, they look like the double sided Shimano pedals that can be used clipless or with street shoes depending on what side is up. What we don't know is how the OP typically uses them?

I took a couple minutes to mock up a general drawing of the bike in question, and I forget who said it, but yes, 73.5 ST and 48 TT don't offer much reach to the front end. I agree with Smiley, if she's running anything longer than a 7cm stem, then the fitter probably should have lengthened the top tube, but we'll have to wait for more information to see.

I would also be interested to hear what length cranks are currently on the bike, as I would think 165mm would be pretty standard on a bike this size. If they're longer than that, then a shorter crank would definitely be in order, although I'm not sure it would make a huge difference at this point.

Dave

[dekindy]

Did the build sheet specify no toe overlap? If not, what did it say? Don't the build sheet measurements include shoe size, pedal type, and shoe/cleat placement, stem length, etc., etc., etc.? I thought that nothing was left to chance in a custom build?

This is my worst nightmare and even if I could afford to right now it makes me shrink from considering custom. Just more credence to the fact that no matter how high the quality, anything made by man can be disappointing.

The difficult builds, which would be on the margin in business terms, are the true test of any system. Maybe put a box on the build sheet that specifically addresses the tolerance for and amount of acceptable toe overlap if any? This would be an opportunity for Serotta to comment.

However, one could argue that it is almost impossible not to go down anyway whether there is toe overlap or not in the situations that you describe. I would opt for lower gearing for the hills, which you should have anyway. It is dangerous to others to be wobbling as much as you are unless you do solo rides only. Why would you not do that anyway even if there was no toe overlap? I am also unsure why a 60-year old woman is going so fast that dodging potholes is a problem? Is there a problem with your eyesight? I am not trying to be funny here, but both these problems do not seem insurmountable with the correct gearing and proper pothole avoidance.

[Smiley]

U said
"?4SMILEY: what speed do you think it would be unstable?
Im just trying to learn, and talking from a girl person who is not fast. Don't know about the op but, how fast would you have to hammer? For the average recreational cyclist would it matter?"

With 2 different diameter wheels on that Terry Model I think called the Symetry you had a 700 wheel in the rear turning so many slower rpm's versus the front wheel turning faster rpm's up front which made for a differing set of dynamics when going fast down hill, to me fast is different than others fast. U need to remember that most riders were set up with a higer center of gravity for these bikes too which de-weighted the front end and made the dynamics funkier too. Yes I fitted a few woment clients who brought to me these bikes and their claims were always the same speed made these handle differently. and u are correct for those that bought these bikes they probably never hit the kinds of speeds that would make this happen cause they did not push that envelope.

[1happygirl]

Cool Smilesman. Thanks. U ROCK!!!!!!
(If I ever get a good bike (& money from not being a permanent student), I'm coming to see you)

[rugbysecondrow]

Did the build sheet specify no toe overlap? If not, what did it say? Don't the build sheet measurements include shoe size, pedal type, and shoe/cleat placement, stem length, etc., etc., etc.? I thought that nothing was left to chance in a custom build?

This is my worst nightmare and even if I could afford to right now it makes me shrink from considering custom. Just more credence to the fact that no matter how high the quality, anything made by man can be disappointing.

The difficult builds, which would be on the margin in business terms, are the true test of any system. Maybe put a box on the build sheet that specifically addresses the tolerance for and amount of acceptable toe overlap if any? This would be an opportunity for Serotta to comment.

However, one could argue that it is almost impossible not to go down anyway whether there is toe overlap or not in the situations that you describe. I would opt for lower gearing for the hills, which you should have anyway. It is dangerous to others to be wobbling as much as you are unless you do solo rides only. Why would you not do that anyway even if there was no toe overlap? I am also unsure why a 60-year old woman is going so fast that dodging potholes is a problem? Is there a problem with your eyesight? I am not trying to be funny here, but both these problems do not seem insurmountable with the correct gearing and proper pothole avoidance.
Firstly, I would just say that because there is the occasional issue with a custom bike or the custom process doesn't mean one ought not go the custom route.

Second, I have some toe over lap on my Sport Tourer Bedford but it is due to the fenders as well as my big ol' feet (size 14 or 49). I don't see this as a problem, it was something discussed prior to build (during the design phase) and it was mitigated to a point. Not an issue for me, but that is just me.

Lastly, I have not had issues like the OP has, but the doesn't mean her issues are not valid or important. This might be a generalization and I say it not to sound sexist, but I think women have concerns that men don't and it takes more to make them feel comfortable safe on a bike. My wife rides some and her approach is different and what spooks her is different than what spooks me. For some reason she is scared of falling, something I have never really considered. I think that fitters and bike professionals need to understand the nuanced difference between men and women. Communication style is different, concerns and goals are likely different, and how they take advice is likely much different. Smiley, Wages and Kirk could speak more to this than me, but this is just an observation.

[BillG]

c) have nothing else to think about but I still know some peeps that can hammer on rides and refuse clipless pedals. So smooth they can 'adjust' straps on the fly. Hahah. Merckx won how many races without em? Hmmm.

Hope you feel better soon! Spring comes and then the flu!

Regarding clipless pedals, riders like Merckkx used cleats, as far as I know, not just toe clips. If you're used to them they work just great but the advantages of clipless pedals are no toe cages, and a lot easier for those of us not used to them to get in and out of.

[oldpotatoe]

Yep, sorry I corrected my post I meant clipless pedals. Yep YMMV. Which brings up a point. Im just playing devil's advocate since a) I have been home all weekend in bed b) I'm miserable sick c) have nothing else to think about but I still know some peeps that can hammer on rides and refuse clipless pedals. So smooth they can 'adjust' straps on the fly. Hahah. Merckx won how many races without em? Hmmm. whole other thread, how much technology do we really need to have enjoyment riding and does this really complicate or simplify fit issues?

Aggghhh. I hope I get well soon.

'Need' is a big word. A well made bicycle should disappear beneath you. It is just a tool. The object of the ride is the ride, not the bike. Four things make riding 'good',

-fit-bike fit ya?
-fat-lackthereof on the rider
-fitness- are you fit?
-finesse-riding and racing smart

It ain't about the bike unless 'coffee shop points' are coveted and collected.

[Bruce K]

Larry's wife has one of the smallest Serotta's I have EVER seen

Compare the build specs from your bike to hers and also compare your issues to any she might have (my recollection is that she has almost none and loves her bike)

That may give you some insight as to a possible "fix"

BK

[thwart]

As someone who has built 3 650c bikes for the height challenged women in our family, I would say that you've reached the point of considering sending the bike back to Serotta for a re-do. I seem to remember that Smiley and Dekonick had that set up for a Hors Categorie...

You already have 650c wheels, the shortest production crankarms, have clipless pedals... I really doubt that anything short of a major change in your fork rake would be worth pursuing. And what that change would do to the handling might 'destroy' the experience on the bike.

If you were 'mis-fit' perhaps the shop will help with the expense... ?

[jt2gt]

As someone who has built 3 650c bikes for the height challenged women in our family, I would say that you've reached the point of considering sending the bike back to Serotta for a re-do. I seem to remember that Smiley and Dekonick had that set up for a Hors Categorie...

You already have 650c wheels, the shortest production crankarms, have clipless pedals... I really doubt that anything short of a major change in your fork rake would be worth pursuing. And what that change would do to the handling might 'destroy' the experience on the bike.

If you were 'mis-fit' perhaps the shop will help with the expense... ?

Problem I see is: Its Been Two Years. Tough argument to make to Serotta that you want a refit, refund or redo after 2 years of use. I totally understand OPs story (about being guilted, strongarmed into taking the bike) and really hope she can get some relief. But this should have been an immediate discussion with fitter, bike shop and Serotta. Not sure what she can do now...if Serotta can make good, that would be amazingly great.

JT

[Pegoready]

I am sorry to hear about this. Toe overlap is a sensitive subject and no one has the right to say "just deal with it" especially when you paid for your dream bike.

I have a suspicion that the fork rake is in the high 3's or low 4's (I'm talking cm's) on your 650c fork. That seems to be the only option. PM me if you'd like info on how to get a 650c carbon fork made with a 5.4 cm or 5.8 cm rake. This will make the handling quicker but it will gain you up to 2 cm of clearance. Based on the pictures that may not be enough, but I thought I'd throw that out there.

[Vientomas]

What about installing some S&S couplers to the top and down tube. Wouldn't that add some length to the respective tubes and move the front wheel away from the down tube and pedals?

Obviously that would increase the reach from saddle to bars as well. Perhaps the OP does not want a longer reach.

Just a thought.

[Smiley]

Larry's wife has one of the smallest Serotta's I have EVER seen

Compare the build specs from your bike to hers and also compare your issues to any she might have (my recollection is that she has almost none and loves her bike)

That may give you some insight as to a possible "fix"

BK
Larry's wife had a Straight set of handlebars on her bike to add to Top Tube length.

ALL I have heard from a good source within Serotta that this story has another side to it and we should NOT jump to too many bad conclusions about our host or the fitter in question not doing their most about this problem. Smiley

[ultraman6970]

Yes, they're definitely 650 wheels!
I have thought about getting smaller cranks specially made, (I am on 165's now), but everyone has advised against it because they say I would have to spin faster. Not true? I know this would only buy me couple of centimeters, right?
The fork I have is also the only fork made for 650's with this much rake.

The crankset is a pretty tough call because is not just go and put 140 mm cranks in there to fix the toe overlap. 165 is like the smallest one in stock usually and who knows what I could happen bio mechanically speaking if you go to the extreme and put 140 mm cranks for example, never seen a person your size using less than 165, probably the strength to move the gears will be affected. U have less torque now, smaller crank u need to put more power to move the same weight. So don't even want to tell you what it will happen in the climbs.

A deeper fork will give you as much of a centimeter or more but the issue you generate with the is that the handling will go to lala land. about the 650 wheel comment about spinning, actually the only advantage of 650 wheels is that they are faster to get them going/rolling, but with the right gears as somebody mentioned is basically the same thing. That's why u have 54 and 55 chainrings.

After seeing the geometry i really think you have to just learn to ride with the toe over lap, a 48 cm frame is so small that I still remember when I got mine when I was like 10 and mine was a track frame that is even smaller than the one you are getting, 2 hours riding that thing with fix gear and problem solved, simply coordination, if she thinks she can learn the skill great!, I dont see a problem, other mentioned her age (looks like for some it is a big problem), she is 60, wish my grandma or my mom was able to ride like her tho. Good for her.

The other thing is that the only situations when is going to be a problem with the toe overlap is if you do a tight corner like making a u turn, or maybe in a parking lot but in the road doubt she will get even close to touch the wheel with the shoe unless the corner is really tight. So tight that the steering needs to move at least 35 degrees after balancing with her own weight.

With smaller wheels some complain about speed handling issues but wonder how fast are you going to ride, how fast are you talking about, 90 km/h downhill? (50 mph), 45 km/h?, some here are racing also so handling is something that is learn. Sincerely, IF she wont go over 15 mph in flats i really doubt she will feel any handling issue and at her age group, the only lady around 52 I have seen personally going 25+ mph in the flats is Jenny Longo, are u Jenny Longo by any chance? Sorry for my sarcasm but just making a point, i like you a lot wish my wife had 1/4 of your interest in the sport as u do.

As for going downhill for some reason serotta developed that bike with that geometry also, i really doubt the lady will go 75 km/h going down hill and probably the bike if left as it is it will handle right at those speeds or at least to 55 km/h (35 mph) downhill that is relatively slow under my point of view.

Other will complain that their wifes got an accident and stuff because of overlap (my wife complain even if there is too much sun, i can't make the sun disappear everytime she wants, right?), but sadly it is what it is with short and small frames. Change the fork for a super long one like a chopper style (just making a point) will send the handling totally off and now the cornering will be affected. It is a tough call for her and I understand that but even going custom at those sizes you have some tolerances (remember a girl showing up with a builder asking for a 67 degrees 44 cm custom frame because that's what the fitting formulas said, obviously she never got the frame made, got a vitus 700/650 in the front instead), u can design a bike with longer wheel base but again the handling will be like a truck, slow and steady, my background is racing so long based bikes are not on me at all but could work for her tho. Honestly. it is faster and cheaper for her to learn a new skill than try to fix it in my opinion, but is her call. As for the store, well they should have known the problem from the beginning and let her known before taking her money based in previous promises, their fault.

Good luck...

Cambio y fuera :)

[picstloup]

Yes, 1happygirl, I actually looked at Terry bikes. Georgena Terry rocks! She takes women bikers seriously and designs for them. I didn't get a Terry because I really wanted a Ti bike. I also thought that having the bike designed specifically for me would guarantee me a better fit. I wanted to buy American, and everything I read about Ben Serotta and the Serotta bike itself made me a believer. I've been a lurker on forums for a long time, and I really did a lot of research. I just didn't know enough to ask the right questions. I consider this bike to be my first bike, really, at least first bike that was such an investment. My other bikes were always off the rack, and weren't this quality. Like I said, it was a reward for surviving some pretty challenging life issues. I felt like I had one shot and that was going to be it. I bought based on reputation, but I didn't really understand bike design numbers and how everything worked together. I was leaving that up to the fitter and Serotta. Kind-of like the way you trust your doctor to be up to speed on your medical care. You can't know it all. You have to trust the experts. So I put my research time into finding the experts. Now I am sadder, poorer, but much wiser.

Dear wordbuzz...it may be too late, you waited many years, but I'd contact serotta direct, explain this all, or just send your initial post, and see if they can help you...I would think they'd want to make this right...

I wonder...is it any place in writing that the fitter promised/guaranteed no overlap?...if yes, that will help...no matter, serotta should know they have a fitter not doing their job, or at least not being honest about expected results...

reading about all the 'near misses' on the street because of this problem would ruin any pleasure in owning this bike...

I might also visit a few bike shops for rides on stock bikes that fit you...see if you can find something that works...then maybe talk to serotta?...or at least know for yourself that what you want is doable...

good luck to you on this...you should have what you want and need to make riding a pleasure, especially after laying down so much cash...

[thegunner]

The crankset is a pretty tough call because is not just go and put 140 mm cranks in there to fix the toe overlap. 165 is like the smallest one in stock usually and who knows what I could happen bio mechanically speaking if...

[snipped]

As for the store, well they should have known the problem from the beginning and let her known before taking her money based in previous promises, their fault.

Good luck...

Cambio y fuera :)

sentences. they are not your friend. :p

[jlwdm]

Dear wordbuzz...it may be too late, you waited many years, but I'd contact serotta direct, explain this all, or just send your initial post, and see if they can help you...

..

+100

Always deal with company first. Here you get all kinds of opinions from people who may or may not have good advice, usually based on part of the whole picture.

Jeff

[ultraman6970]

WHen English is like your 3rd tonge is hard to make sense sometimes, but thanks :)

[thegunner]

it's my second ;) but reading that was a constant stream of information overload

[sc53]

Hi WordBuzz, another female with two custom Serottas (I'm 5'6" so have more cm to work with, I ride 50 cm road frame) chiming in here. You have already heard from Smiley and Dave Wages and others who know what they are talking about. It may be possible to "unweld" your bike and redo the geometry? I know builders take bikes apart to add S&S couplers, but not sure they can actually change the angles unless you add some new tubes to the mix. Short of redoing the whole bike and reusing whatever tubes I could, I would look at (1) using a longer stem with short-reach bars or even flat or mustache/albatross bars; (2) using clipless pedals and moving the cleats up to as close to the front of my shoe as possible; (3) buying bike shoes that are as unbulky up front as possible (eg. Sidi instead of Shimano touring-type shoes or Lake shoes, which are really bulky and in my size, 41.5, catch my front tire all winter long until I change back to my summer Sidis); (4) possibly getting a new fork in a material like steel where you can change the rake; (5) using smaller size tires to give me as much room for my foot as possible; (6) changing to a triple crank or a larger cogset or both so that could remain seated on climbs and not swerve due to lack of power. Like you, I LOVE my Serottas and would hate to have to give them up. I got my first one, a CSI, 15 years ago when I was younger, thinner, and fitter, so I have made a bunch of changes (short of redoing the geometry!) to make it more suitable to me now at age 58: different crankset and cassette, new taller stem so I'm sitting more upright, fatter tires (Riv Roly-Polys) so I'm more comfortable on bumpy roads. In 2005 I ordered a new Ottrott which fits me perfectly and is my most comfortable bike size-wise. There is hope for your Legend! PM Smiley or contact Serotta directly and get to work on some fixes for your bike.

[SPOKE]

"ALL I have heard from a good source within Serotta that this story has another side to it and we should NOT jump to too many bad conclusions about our host or the fitter in question not doing their most about this problem. Smiley

Ah....the other side of this story! I doubt that we will ever get the other part of this story.
I have to agree with many (if not all) that have posted to this thread that this type of situation sucks. It sucks for all involved.
What I've learned in my 30 years dealing with bikes is that small frames are a challenge to build. Managing the "compromises" during the design process is tough. One way to minimize these types of issues is to create an actual dimensioned sketch of the bike not just the frame & fork.
Unless things have changed recently Serotta does not provide this bit of important documentation.

[SamIAm]

I'd be curious as to what the OP thought should be done about this. Surely, she wasn't expecting a quick fix/tip from the gang here that would resolve this problem. Me thinks, by posting here, she is looking for a Serotta solution, which seems a bit far fetched 2 years after the fact.

[goonster]

I'd be curious as to what the OP thought should be done about this.
From my reading of it, and taking her post at face value, she's looking for input on two points:

1. Is it reasonable to desire a bike with no TCO.
2. Is it possible to design a road bike* in this size with no TCO.
3. Is there a way to eliminate TCO from this particular bike.

(* = drop bars, reasonable seat and steering angles, correct tt length)

I say:

1. Yes, it is reasonable to ask for this, I guess. However, personally, I truly believe that TCO is not unsafe, nor does it render a bike unrideable. Without casting aspersions, people unable to overcome TCO constitute a tiny, tiny subset of the cycling population, and I have never actually met one. No, gender has nothing to do with it.
2. Probably not without some serious compromises, e.g. outrageously slack steering angle and weird fork offset.
3. No.

I will post pictures later today to show the missus' bike, which has similar dimensions. The builder was asked to minimize TCO as a third or fourth priority after fit, ride quality, etc.

A question for wordbuzz: In the two years you have owned this bike, how many miles have you ridden on it? What other bikes have you owned? How many miles, per year, have you ridden in the last ten years?

[bobswire]

I'd be curious as to what the OP thought should be done about this. Surely, she wasn't expecting a quick fix/tip from the gang here that would resolve this problem. Me thinks, by posting here, she is looking for a Serotta solution, which seems a bit far fetched 2 years after the fact.

True but having less than a 1" clearance between pedal and tire clearance is intolerable.
I have a slight toe clearance problem on one of my bikes where sometime I may have to slow and make a turn where I catch the front tire. I thought it was a tight fit at 2-1/2" clearance, an inch would be very dangerous IMO.

[yipsan]

As a builder and SICI certified fitter, I think we have to respect the rider's requests. Priorities of the rider's requests is also important. If either the fitter or builder think the request is outside of their liking/preference/preferred outcome, maybe they should have declined the order.

Will we get a full grasp of the full story? Likely not.

I think TCO is as important as the rider thinks it is. There is no need to project our views onto others.

Can a rider with such contact points have no TCO and still maintain good handling, yes. Likely require the use of wheels smaller than 650c and this is likely the deal breaker for a lot of riders accustomed to the "normal" wheel size.

[merlincustom1]

sentences. they are not your friend. :p

Capitalization. It's not your friend. :)

[thegunner]

Capitalization. It's not your friend. :)

haha, i can't be bothered with hitting the shift-key! wasteful keystrokes :p

[rugbysecondrow]

WHen English is like your 3rd tonge is hard to make sense sometimes, but thanks :)

it's my second ;) but reading that was a constant stream of information overload


At least you guys have a built in excuse. :beer:

[goonster]

Hi, Renold. Welcome to the forum!

Can a rider with such contact points have no TCO and still maintain good handling, yes. Likely require the use of wheels smaller than 650c and this is likely the deal breaker for a lot of riders accustomed to the "normal" wheel size.
QFT. Smaller even than 26", probably. We went with ISO 559 wheels, and there is still TCO, but this was not a must-have criterion.

[Joachim]

I wonder how many guys actually thought this thread was really a request for a husband :cool:

[sg8357]

24 inch wheels can make for a more normal looking bike, in tiny sizes.

size 40
HA 72
SA 73.5
TT horiz 440
TT C-C 423
Head Tube 90
ST C-T 345
ST C-C 304
BB Drop 30
CS 365
Front Center 493
Wheelbase 856
Rake 40

http://www.feltbicycles.com/USA/2011/Road/F-Series/F24.aspx

[tuxbailey]

I wonder how many guys actually thought this thread was really a request for a husband :cool:

Well at least I found the content "unexpected" compared to the thread title :)

But it is educational to say the least.

[yipsan]

Hi, Renold. Welcome to the forum!


QFT. Smaller even than 26", probably. We went with ISO 559 wheels, and there is still TCO, but this was not a must-have criterion.

What is fork offset for your (wife's) bike? Smaller wheels help, but tweaking fork offset and HT angle is still needed.

I had built a road bike with 24" wheels for a lady 4'8", and she already had bikes with 650c wheels before this. And I think wheels should be proportional to rider height, power and skills.

Details are more important for smaller frames, even where the rider put the cleats become a bigger factor, and of course, for bikes with fenders and wider tires, it is very demanding in the design.

[palincss]

From my reading of it, and taking her post at face value, she's looking for input on two points:

1. Is it reasonable to desire a bike with no TCO.
2. Is it possible to design a road bike* in this size with no TCO.

[snip]

I say:

1. Yes, it is reasonable to ask for this, I guess. However, personally, I truly believe that TCO is not unsafe, nor does it render a bike unrideable. Without casting aspersions, people unable to overcome TCO constitute a tiny, tiny subset of the cycling population, and I have never actually met one. No, gender has nothing to do with it.
2. Probably not without some serious compromises, e.g. outrageously slack steering angle and weird fork offset.


Re: your no. 2 -- perhaps you should add the caveat, "or going to even smaller wheels." If the frame is designed around 17" or 20" wheels, you can be pretty sure nobody who isn't wearing clown shoes would have TCO. Yes, there are some consequences to such small wheels, but as many Bike Friday and Alex Moulton owners can attest, it's possible to design a fine handling bike with them.

[Doug Fattic]

I’m sorry for your bicycle troubles. Something that cost a lot of money and effort and isn’t right is disappointing and a real frustration. By now you realize that your bicycle will never be right for you. No small equipment changes will solve the problem and you will never be satisfied with that much toe clip overlap. Your opinion is the only one that matters. Your next step is to figure out how to get another one. I don’t have an opinion about fault. Other people’s business transactions aren’t my business nor should they be with limited information. I’m a framebuilder not a judge. What I can say is that it is possible to design a custom bike to fit your seat handlebar relationship and have toe/wheel clearance.

I have built a lot of women’s bicycles in my 35+ year career and many of them specifically requested toe clearance. It certainly can be done but it might involve other compromises. 5’1” pushes the limits but isn’t a super problem. Most likely 650C wheels will work but that isn’t your only wheel size option (559mm rims with road width tires are slightly smaller in diameter for example). A custom design will be built around proper component selection (like 165 cranks, a short stem and handlebars that have a shallow drop and a short reach) and your bicycle position (saddle height, saddle set back, handlebar reach and drop). That way the frame will fit your body and not the other way around. A competent and experienced builder wouldn’t get it wrong if he measures and fits you personally and there is clear communication about your needs. If Serotta can’t make you another frame to fit your needs, I recommend you find someone you can visit personally. There is much less room for error and adjustment in your size range than for a bigger go-fast guy. The more people there are between you and the final result the more chances there are for something to go wrong. Good luck.

[goonster]

Re: your no. 2 -- perhaps you should add the caveat, "or going to even smaller wheels."
You are absolutely right. I stand corrected.

Renold, fork offset is 50 mm. More pictures to follow.

[SamIAm]

True but having less than a 1" clearance between pedal and tire clearance is intolerable.
I have a slight toe clearance problem on one of my bikes where sometime I may have to slow and make a turn where I catch the front tire. I thought it was a tight fit at 2-1/2" clearance, an inch would be very dangerous IMO.

I'm not arguing this point at all. But asking Serotta to "fix" this after 2 years is a bit much. And I think that is exactly what she is really asking.

[William]

I’m sorry for your bicycle troubles. Something that cost a lot of money and effort and isn’t right is disappointing and a real frustration. By now you realize that your bicycle will never be right for you. No small equipment changes will solve the problem and you will never be satisfied with that much toe clip overlap. Your opinion is the only one that matters. Your next step is to figure out how to get another one. I don’t have an opinion about fault. Other people’s business transactions aren’t my business nor should they be with limited information. I’m a framebuilder not a judge. What I can say is that it is possible to design a custom bike to fit your seat handlebar relationship and have toe/wheel clearance.

I have built a lot of women’s bicycles in my 35+ year career and many of them specifically requested toe clearance. It certainly can be done but it might involve other compromises. 5’1” pushes the limits but isn’t a super problem. Most likely 650C wheels will work but that isn’t your only wheel size option (559mm rims with road width tires are slightly smaller in diameter for example). A custom design will be built around proper component selection (like 165 cranks, a short stem and handlebars that have a shallow drop and a short reach) and your bicycle position (saddle height, saddle set back, handlebar reach and drop). That way the frame will fit your body and not the other way around. A competent and experienced builder wouldn’t get it wrong if he measures and fits you personally and there is clear communication about your needs. If Serotta can’t make you another frame to fit your needs, I recommend you find someone you can visit personally. There is much less room for error and adjustment in your size range than for a bigger go-fast guy. The more people there are between you and the final result the more chances there are for something to go wrong. Good luck.


A lot of very good points to consider in Mr. Fattic's response. :cool:


William

[bobswire]

I'm not arguing this point at all. But asking Serotta to "fix" this after 2 years is a bit much. And I think that is exactly what she is really asking.

That may be true but if I'm the one who built it and it was a wrong fit to begin with I would try my best to make it right, I'm retired but when I was a contractor/carpenter I had the same kind of backwards request and made them right. My reputation of getting it right superseded any time frame or profit /loss. There may be a slight charge for materials but nothing like original cost.

[Smiley]

That may be true but if I'm the one who built it and it was a wrong fit to begin with I would try my best to make it right, I'm retired but when I was a contractor/carpenter I had the same kind of backwards request and made them right. My reputation of getting it right superseded any time frame or profit /loss. There may be a slight charge for materials but nothing like original cost.


Geez guys wax on about this subject and NOBODY here has heard the other side of the story. I happen to get some of the short version notes of this from Serotta and THEY being Serotta have proposed many fixes and I think this method of shoot first and ask questions later does not do service to our hosts. So lets have the OP call and deal with Serotta as they have reached out several times to her.
But if its a slow day and you all chose to wax on go for it cause nothing I say will change that :)

[jlwdm]

If Serotta can’t make you another frame to fit your needs, I recommend you find someone you can visit personally. There is much less room for error and adjustment in your size range than for a bigger go-fast guy. The more people there are between you and the final result the more chances there are for something to go wrong. Good luck.

-100

Maybe sometimes, but lots of framebuilders are better at making a frame than designing a frame. Some of the builders like Serotta have a lot more knowledge regarding designing a frame.

Jeff

[palincss]

Geez guys wax on about this subject and NOBODY here has heard the other side of the story. I happen to get some of the short version notes of this from Serotta and THEY being Serotta have proposed many fixes and I think this method of shoot first and ask questions later does not do service to our hosts. So lets have the OP call and deal with Serotta as they have reached out several times to her.
But if its a slow day and you all chose to wax on go for it cause nothing I say will change that :)

Half this discussion is general and theoretical: can a small frame be designed without TCO, and if so, how. For those issues, the "other side of the story" doesn't matter; the subject is interesting regardless of the facts of this particular case.

For the case of this particular bike, you're absolutely right: the OP should call Serotta.

[bobswire]

Geez guys wax on about this subject and NOBODY here has heard the other side of the story. I happen to get some of the short version notes of this from Serotta and THEY being Serotta have proposed many fixes and I think this method of shoot first and ask questions later does not do service to our hosts. So lets have the OP call and deal with Serotta as they have reached out several times to her.
But if its a slow day and you all chose to wax on go for it cause nothing I say will change that :)

Smiley I was responding to someone who suggested there was too long of a time lapse. All I said is if a job was done improperly to begin with I would do what I can to make it right. No where did I suggest Serotta was at fault
or not following through.

[Smiley]

was not picking on you u just had the last thread at the time, I know much more than I care to share and I think we need to give Serotta some due here, did not mean to finger you on it but I was called about this first thing this morning. Smiley

[Smiley]

Palancss, one quick fix STRAIGHT MTB bars or Nitto Bars will do a very good fix for a Short TT bike with smaller wheels. Go look at the Bedford we built with Moustach bars it was a 50 or 51 cm TT bike with 700 wheels and YES she did not want TCO and the only over lap was the bolt that holds the fender in place down low.

[palincss]

Smiley, I don't understand how flat handlebars will reduce TCO, and I think I'm misunderstanding what you're saying. Do you mean that by using flat bars (with less reach than a drop bar) you could design for a longer top tube, increase front center and thereby making more room for feet up front?

[goonster]

Palancss, one quick fix STRAIGHT MTB bars or Nitto Bars will do a very good fix for a Short TT bike with smaller wheels.
It may be a "quick fix" for rides around the block, but this is not acceptable substitute for drop bars, if that's what you want, imho.

Also, how does that address the TCO?

[cody.wms]

From a couple pages back:

Larry's wife had a Straight set of handlebars on her bike to add to Top Tube length.

Smiley

Longer TT, more room to work with.

[Smiley]

Smiley, I don't understand how flat handlebars will reduce TCO, and I think I'm misunderstanding what you're saying. Do you mean that by using flat bars (with less reach than a drop bar) you could design for a longer top tube, increase front center and thereby making more room for feet up front?


YES, its been done by me a bunch of times I had a client that was barely 5 ft tall and she was upset that this was her only solution SHORT of buying a Bike Friday, guess what she loved her 650 c Serotta with staright bars and bought a second duplicate. Plus the Bedford we did with the Moustache bars was done for this purpose and a few others.

[palincss]

How does a setup like that compare to a short-reach drop bar and a really short stem?

[Pete Serotta]

I also thought that as a builder, I might have some expertise to share. :)


Thankyou for sharing and trying to assist. PETE

[Pete Serotta]

You have received info from some very knowledgable folks who have wonderful training and experience.

Without seeing you and the bike, it is going to be even more difficult to a difficult topic.


Please send me an email at pjmckeon@me.com (pete@serotta.com)


Once I know your town/state and talk to you..(once I have the above info I will send you my cell phone ## to your email.

Besides some excellent fitters on here, and if they are close to where you are located, and they can help as well as others.


Peter Mckeon Raleigh NC

[vqdriver]

supacool


You have received info from some very knowledgable folks who have wonderful training and experience.

Without seeing you and the bike, it is going to be even more difficult to a difficult topic.


Please send me an email at pjmckeon@me.com (pete@serotta.com)


Once I know your town/state and talk to you..(once I have the above info I will send you my cell phone ## to your email.

Besides some excellent fitters on here, and if they are close to where you are located, and they can help as well as others.


Peter Mckeon Raleigh NC

[Pete Serotta]

Steve at Serotta worked on this and Ian from Fitwerx the other fitter have been involved.

The 2 are among the best if not the best fitters "period",,,per me and hundreds of satisfied customers over the years.

Based on the build draft review, from an expert, I was told the Lady recently switched shoes and pedals (gone clipless from originalflat pedals) and that added 4 cm to the BB to tip of shoe number so

She has already been to the Serotta Fit Lab to see what can be done with her new pedal requiremts.

She did not follow up w/Serotta as Serotta bought her new cranks that are still at Serotta.

I have known Steve and the folks at Serotta for years and they have fit MANY of my friends over the years. They are Excellent fitters and have fit me over the years also every time I needed it.

Serotta and their Experts want to help her find what she wants with the bike and new pedals.

If there is something I have missed I left my email and will call when she sends me an email. In fact let me give my personal # here for I feel so strongly about the service and expertise that were provided by Steve and the folks at Serotta. Pete 1-919-219-6765


Yes I am Serotta Biased and there are no better fitters in the USA than she has. They are also tops in service and in understanding what a customer wants and what they need to satisfy those cycling wants.

Ms. please call me and/or go the the plant. THanks PETE

[93legendti]

kudos to Pete, for going the extra mile to help resolve the issue...not the first time, either

[1happygirl]

Serotta_Pete...That's awesome.


Awwwwwww.

That's why I want a Serotta.

[tuxbailey]

Pretty amazing the way that Pete is stepping up. I hope OP will find a suitable solution for her fit issues and hopefully she will report back so the collective won't hang in suspense :beer:

[akelman]

You're a very good man, Pete, and the very best ambassador any brand could hope to have. Thanks for everything you do here.

[jeo99]

This is the same Pete I know! He has helped/advised me on several situations.

:beer:

[firerescuefin]

Couple of thoughts......

Pete and Serotta continue to show that they are a class act and are a lot more than the gracious hosts of this forum.

Regrettingly, this appears to be another first post airing of dirty laundry without sharing all of the facts. Interesting how those seemed to be left out. I would like to add a few additional words, but I will keep them to myself.

Kudos Pete...not only for your handling of the situation, but your civility in doing so.

[tuxbailey]

Couple of thoughts......

Pete and Serotta continue to show that they are a class act and are a lot more than the gracious hosts of this forum.

Regrettingly, this appears to be another first post airing of dirty laundry without sharing all of the facts. Interesting how those seemed to be left out. I would like to add a few additional words, but I will keep them to myself.

Kudos Pete...not only for your handling of the situation, but your civility in doing so.


Yeah I wonder if we will hear from the OP again.

[rwsaunders]

Yeah I wonder if we will hear from the OP again.

Roger that thought.
BTW, Pete and the folks at the Springs rock.

[WickedWheels]

Way to step it up, Serotta. More companies should have this kind of a response.

I'd be curious to see the build sheet, though. To me the clearance seems super-tight, whether the pedals were changed or not. It looks, based on the pics, that there are maybe 4-5cm from the center of the crank to the tire. It's fairly obvious that the OP is a difficult customer, but I can't imagine that such a specific issue couldn't be resolved with more clearance, especially considering the 650c wheels.

I've seen a lot of new fitters do a "by the book" fitting to get the body position correct without designing the bike for real world applications. The OP has a 73.5 seat tube angle on a bike with a 48cm TT. There's a reason why most major manufacturers spec out 74-75 degree seat tube angles on small bikes... it's to get the front wheel out of the way even if it means that the rider is a little bit forward of KOPS.

FWIW, I attached a picture of my wife's 44cm Cannondale Synapse. She has nearly double the clearance of the OP, and this is with 165mm cranks and 700c wheels!

[martinrjensen]

This has to be one of the longest posts I've ever read without it turning into a shouting match. I just can't believe the civility I have been reading here. Am I in the wrong forum?

[Jack Brunk]

Why did Wordbuzz go away after page 3? Sorry but I hate people dissing on things and then going away. Anyone who would think that Serotta would not stand up to a build is way off base. I'm bitter betwen this topic and MRB's.

[StanleySteamer]

Dave Moulton seems to have good info on toe overlap in his Nov 5, 2008 blog entry.

[Louis]

I'm bitter betwen this topic and MRB's.

Jack, I think of it this way:

When Serotta responds in the classy manner that they always seem to (unless the customer is stark, raving mad and requesting the moon on a platter, which I don't seem to remember seeing) they end up looking good, and that can only help the company.

Of course nobody can expect them to give away the house, but when they stand behind their reputation as a first-class company they hopefully benefit more than it cost them.

[SamIAm]

I would much rather have seen the OP just say that she thought Serotta had screwed up the design, hadn't been able to get satisfaction from them, so she thought she would use this forum to shame them into action by just telling her side. At least that would have been honest.

[Fixed]

You're a very good man, Pete, and the very best ambassador any brand could hope to have. Thanks for everything you do here.
+ 1
the silent hero
cheers

[BillG]

Serotta Pete does this for others, while battling cancer and for no financial gain. I think we all need to raise a glass of red to him or two tonight. Maybe send him a bottle of red or two! :banana:

[William]

Serotta Pete does this for others, while battling cancer and for no financial gain. I think we all need to raise a glass of red to him or two tonight. Maybe send him a bottle of red or two! :banana:


TO PETE!!

http://www.tlc-systems.com/pq004553_lzn.jpg




William

[goonster]

While I now see that this thread is not really about bike design, I wanted to show that a very short (46cm tt) road bike can be built with minimal TCO, and how the photos posted by the OP do not demonstrate actual TCO:

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?p=928172

(new photos added to end of thread)

Riders of small bikes should not be told to "just suck it up", but they should understand that completely eliminating TCO will sometimes entail additional design changes, e.g. 26" or even 24" wheels.

Shame on the OP for not sticking around to provide complete information (photo of complete bike, for example) or discuss the topic substantially. Commercial issues aside, we could have all learned something about small bikes.

Cheers to Pete and Serotta, for demonstrating, once again, that their commitment to customer satisfaction goes beyond any conventional standard.

[Pete Serotta]

Received note from and it will get resolved. Steve Fairchild is a master of fairness and customer service. No need to add any additional posts to the thread. The customer, Steve, and Serotta will reach a resolution in the next couple of days.


Pete

[InspectorGadget]

The customer, Steve, and Serotta will reach a resolution in the next couple of days.

Pete
9 pages and more than a 100 posts read and Serotta Pete convinces me why I should be saving my nickels for a Serotta.

Nice work.

[RPS]

.....
Shame on the OP for not sticking around to provide complete information (photo of complete bike, for example) or discuss the topic substantially. Commercial issues aside, we could have all learned something about small bikes.
.......

Let’s not be too quick to chastise her for not sticking around for we don’t really know why that’s the case, do we?

I hate to be a realist, but I have no clue why she didn’t stick around. For all we know it may not be by choice, or she got hit by a truck, or who knows what. In today’s world we should keep an open mind more than ever.

[SoCalSteve]

This thread is over. It's been resolved. No point in keeping it open any longer.

Pete and the good people at Serotta have taken care of this.

Thank you!