Is low back flexibility changeable?

[MattTuck]

I have poor flexibility both in my lower back and my hamstrings. In the past, I've had some success improving ham string flexibility but not much improving low back flexibility.

Anyone have any success with improving lower back flexibility? Is it worth the effort to make a concerted effort? Anyone use a particular approach?

Thanks

[Louis]

I don't know if low-back flexibility can be improved, but back / core strength certainly can be.

Do you know if your problem is due to a lack of flexibility, or a lack of strength? I've been doing some core-type work and they certainly have helped my on-bike back issues.

And they've also helped other stuff. For example, I've noticed that my ability to balance on one foot has vastly improved.

Good Luck
Louis

[zetroc]

Speaking as a formerly inflexible fatass, I've found that my flexibility has increased over the past year or so. Doing simple stretches seems to have helped, but I'm sure increased mileage and a slightly longer top tube on my current bike have done just as much. YMMV.

steve

[dekindy]

Yes. It takes regular stretching over a long time period. Go to Amazon.com and select a highly rated book on stretching and apply a comprehensive program. That is all there is to it. Be realistic in your expectations concerning potential improvement and the time it takes to get there.

[JohnHemlock]

My L4 and L5 are fecked and I have spondylosis and some other stuff going on down there. I stretch, do yoga, have a personal trainer for core, do Pilates, etc. Not in massive quantities but doing just a little work every day has done wonders for me. As long as I do the work, I feel as supple as a 14 year old Romanian gymnast. I can ride for 8 hours with no problem, ski 100 days a year, etc.

Conversely, if I don't do the work I lose flexibility in a hurry. After 10 days of business travel and neglect, this morning I was putting my pants on by bracing myself against the dresser with one arm while sort of hanging my pants down toward the ground with the other. Couldn't even stand freely and bend over.

[firerescuefin]

What a lot of people think of low back flexibility is actually hip/hamstring flexibility. The lower back is designed for stability not mobility...that's not to say that it doesn't move, but your not going to gain a lot of flexibility there. That's why most programs focus on hip and hamstring flexibility (but unfortunately stop there). I have worked with Dr. Andy Pruitt and was talking to him about the guys he has worked with including FC and FC can put his palms flat on the floor. He confirmed what I said above (Primarily hip/hamstring flexibilty) Very rarely are muscles strong and tight, especially the ones that tie into your pelvis: Hips (ad/abductors/flexors), QL, Hamstrings, etc. More often than not they are weak and tight. People with lower back issues will have chronically weak and tight glutes/hamstrings/hips (9 out of 10).

Someone above mentioned books. I have purchased 4 of the highest rated ones on Amazon and the Genius of Flexibilty is the best I have come across. The first chapter is a little new agey as Cooley talks about his philosophy on life, but resistance stretching focuses on strength and mobility throughout the normal ROM of a muscle, not just static stretching which usually stresses attachment points/joint capsules. Cooley works with some of the top athletes in the world and one of his clients, Dana Torres (super hot 40+ year old swimmer still winning Olympic medals) has a great resistance stretching DVD for those that need a little more direction. Stretching Scientifically has a lot of stretches, but the book is put together hap-hazardly and the guy's claim to fame is to get people to do the splits (something referenced in about every chapter). Anyhow YMMV, but I wouldn't necessarily focus on your lower back per se....more likely a symptom than a cause.

[seatown7]

I started doing yoga 2 weeks ago and already see some improvement. The hot yoga helps me get loose without any of my usual aches, pains and stiffness.

Good luck.

[victoryfactory]

firerescuefin;
thanks for that info.
I am convinced that improving flexibility is the key
as we get older as well.
I've found that a few stretches every am do a lot.
I hope to make my program more focused. This may
help, but as usual it's really all about doing it rather than
talking about it.

VF

[Climb01742]

for me, adding some sort of bodywork (massage or rolfing) to a consistent stretching/yoga regime has helped enormously.

[rugbysecondrow]

I started doing yoga 2 weeks ago and already see some improvement. The hot yoga helps me get loose without any of my usual aches, pains and stiffness.

Good luck.
I started yoga about 7 weeks ago and can tell a big difference. Yes, it is possible to make improvements.

[Nelson99]

My L4 and L5 are fecked and I have spondylosis and some other stuff going on down there. I stretch, do yoga, have a personal trainer for core, do Pilates, etc. Not in massive quantities but doing just a little work every day has done wonders for me. As long as I do the work, I feel as supple as a 14 year old Romanian gymnast. I can ride for 8 hours with no problem, ski 100 days a year, etc.

Conversely, if I don't do the work I lose flexibility in a hurry. After 10 days of business travel and neglect, this morning I was putting my pants on by bracing myself against the dresser with one arm while sort of hanging my pants down toward the ground with the other. Couldn't even stand freely and bend over.

And getting back from this state is slow, painful and gives me the feeling that I should have known better. :crap:

[MattTuck]

What a lot of people think of low back flexibility is actually hip/hamstring flexibility. The lower back is designed for stability not mobility...that's not to say that it doesn't move, but your not going to gain a lot of flexibility there.

Thanks for the advice everyone, a trip to the book store is in order I guess. I've tried some hot yoga here and there, it is hard (especially when the weather is good) to put in time doing yoga when I could be biking.

As far as low back vs. hip/hamstring flexibility, I could stand to improve in all of them. Definitely. And I don't think you can work one in isolation and the exclusion of the others, but there are certainly ways to target them.

[ti_boi]

Yoga helps. As does "stress" management. Some people carry a lot of tension in their lower back. Meditation and Sex work wonders.... :)

[RPS]

Is low back flexibility changeable?

My 2 cents .... yes but not to a great degree. I doubt stretching will turn a regular guy into a contortionist.

I believe we can make improvements; but unfortunately also think that greater restrictions in our range of motion is inherent (other than injury related which can be helped more). Stretching helps us get the most of what we were given, and also to maintain more of it as we get older, but can't change our basic build.

[Fixed]

ride everyday lose weight get fit and gym work , works for me
cheers

[ZippRider]

Yes. It takes regular stretching over a long time period. Go to Amazon.com and select a highly rated book on stretching and apply a comprehensive program. That is all there is to it. Be realistic in your expectations concerning potential improvement and the time it takes to get there.

Relax into Stretch
Instant Flexibility Through Mastering Muscle Tension
With Pavel Tsatsouline

Stretching is NOT
the best way to become flexible

Why Americans lose flexibility as they grow older • the dangers of physically stretching muscles and ligaments • the role of antagonist passive insufficiency • the nature and function of the stretch reflex • how to master muscular tension • how to inhibit the stretch reflex • intensive and extensive learning methods.

Be as Flexible as You Want to Be
Faster, Safer and Sooner
You have to be careful throwing superlatives around when talking about a new idea or product lest you be mistaken for a brainless, giddy cheerleader. I tell you truly that 'Relax Into Stretch' is superb; I'd run out of superlatives and might sound like a cheerleader so I won't go the traditional praise route. Why is this book so important to the fitness community? Stretching has always been associated with any serious fitness effort and Tsatsouline's approach to this old discipline is fresh and unique and thought provoking. Best of all, this book combines philosophic insight with in-your-face reality as Pavel shares with the reader 'drills' that turn you into what this former Russian Spetznaz instructor calls ' a flexibility mutant'. What red-blooded American fitness devotee wouldn't aspire to mutation? This book supplies both the road map and the methodology. Don't ask to borrow my copy."
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World Masters Powerlifting Champion

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World Kickboxing Champion


"Conventional stretching attempts to literally elongate your tissues, which is dangerous and ineffective. Relax into Stretch simply teaches your muscles to relax into a stretch. If you compare traditional training to a messy hardware reorganization, then Relax into Stretch is an efficient software upgrade.

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•How the secret of mastering your emotions can add immediate inches to your stretch
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•Why contract-relax stretching is 267% more effective than conventional relaxed stretching
•How to breathe your way to greater flexibility
•Using the Russian technique of Forced Relaxation as your ultimate stretching weapon
•How to stretch when injured faster, safer ways to heal
•Young, old, male, female learn what stretches are best for you and what stretches to avoid
•Why excessive flexibility can be detrimental to athletic performance and how to determine your real flexibility needs
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Here's what you'll discover, when you possess your own copy of Pavel Tsatsouline's Relax Into Stretch:


Stretching is NOT the best way to become flexible

•Why Americans lose flexibility as they grow older
•the dangers of physically stretching muscles and ligaments
•the role of antagonist passive insufficiency
•the nature and function of the stretch reflex
•how to master muscular tension
•how to inhibit the stretch reflex
•intensive and extensive learning methods.


Waiting out the Tension

•relaxed stretching as it should be
•Just relax
•when and when not to use the technique of Waiting out the Tension
•Victor Popenko's key to mobility
•the importance of visualization
•why fear and anxiety reduce your flexibility
•maximizing perceived safety in the stretch.


Proprioceptive Neuromuscular Facilitation
•How Kabat's PNF fools your stretch reflex
•the function of the Renshaw cell
•why it works to pre-tense a stretched muscle.


Isometric stretching rules!
•Why contract-relax stretching is 267% more effective than conventional relaxed stretching
•what the 'frozen shoulder' has to teach us
•the lifestyle problem of standard weakness
•why isometrics is more practical than weights.


Extreme flexibility through Contrast Breathing
•How to breathe your way to greater flexibility
•effective visualizations for the tension/release sequence
•avoiding the dangers of hyperventilation.


Forced Relaxation
•the Russian spirit of stretching
•How to turn the contract-relax approach into a thermonuclear stretching weapon
•determining correct duration
•tips for the correct release of tension.


The final frontier:
•Why Clasp Knife stretches will work when everything else fails
•How to cancel out the stretch reflex
•taking advantage of the inverse stretch reflex
•the last line of defense against injuries
•shutdown threshold isometrics
•mastering the Golgi tendon reflex.


Why you should not stretch your ligaments
•How you can tell if you are
•Yoga postures and stretches to avoid at all costs
•The function and limitations of your ligaments.


Stretching when injured

•Rest, Ice, Compression and Elevation
•what happens when a muscle gets injured
•contracting and releasing the injury
•why stretching won¹t help a bad back and what to do instead.


The demographics of stretching

•Why your age and sex should determine your stretches
•the best and worst stretches for young girls, boys and adolescents
•a warning for pregnant women
•what's best for older folks.


The details, the schedule: Isometric stretches

•when to do them and how often
•how to know if you are doing too much
•Bill Superfoot Wallace's hardcore stretching schedule
•correct order and choice of stretch
•why isometric stretching should be the last exercise you do in your day.

[rugbysecondrow]

I like some of Pavel's books and ideas.

[firerescuefin]

Zipprider.....I see that you made good use of the cut and paste option :rolleyes: that is resistance stretching. Matt, same general concept as Cooley's book. I have some of Pavel's kettlebell books.

[ZippRider]

Zipprider.....I see that you made good use of the cut and paste option :rolleyes: that is resistance stretching. Matt, same general concept as Cooley's book. I have some of Pavel's kettlebell books.


I had cut and pasted more than realized.. :crap: Anyway it is a great option as long it is kept in check..

[Louis]

Relax into Stretch
Instant Flexibility Through Mastering Muscle Tension
With Pavel Tsatsouline


I'm hardly an expert on this stuff, but whenever someone shows up on the scene with a book, especially for self-help type stuff, and tells you that he knows everything and that everyone else is wrong, all sorts of red flags go up for me.

It's just a matter of time until some other guy, say some Chinese Kung-Fu master, writes a book telling us how Pavel and the Russians have it all wrong.

Louis

[rugbysecondrow]

I'm hardly an expert on this stuff, but whenever someone shows up on the scene with a book, especially for self-help type stuff, and tells you that he knows everything and that everyone else is wrong, all sorts of red flags go up for me.

It's just a matter of time until some other guy, say some Chinese Kung-Fu master, writes a book telling us how Pavel and the Russians have it all wrong.

Louis

Pavel is way more than a self help guy and hardly new to the scene.

[dekindy]

I read the Amazon reviews and was impressed. Price including local delivery in Indianapolis was less than $20 so I will have it tomorrow. I definitely need as much help as I can get when it comes to flexibility.

What a lot of people think of low back flexibility is actually hip/hamstring flexibility. The lower back is designed for stability not mobility...that's not to say that it doesn't move, but your not going to gain a lot of flexibility there. That's why most programs focus on hip and hamstring flexibility (but unfortunately stop there). I have worked with Dr. Andy Pruitt and was talking to him about the guys he has worked with including FC and FC can put his palms flat on the floor. He confirmed what I said above (Primarily hip/hamstring flexibilty) Very rarely are muscles strong and tight, especially the ones that tie into your pelvis: Hips (ad/abductors/flexors), QL, Hamstrings, etc. More often than not they are weak and tight. People with lower back issues will have chronically weak and tight glutes/hamstrings/hips (9 out of 10).

Someone above mentioned books. I have purchased 4 of the highest rated ones on Amazon and the Genius of Flexibilty is the best I have come across. The first chapter is a little new agey as Cooley talks about his philosophy on life, but resistance stretching focuses on strength and mobility throughout the normal ROM of a muscle, not just static stretching which usually stresses attachment points/joint capsules. Cooley works with some of the top athletes in the world and one of his clients, Dana Torres (super hot 40+ year old swimmer still winning Olympic medals) has a great resistance stretching DVD for those that need a little more direction. Stretching Scientifically has a lot of stretches, but the book is put together hap-hazardly and the guy's claim to fame is to get people to do the splits (something referenced in about every chapter). Anyhow YMMV, but I wouldn't necessarily focus on your lower back per se....more likely a symptom than a cause.

[ZippRider]

I'm hardly an expert on this stuff, but whenever someone shows up on the scene with a book, especially for self-help type stuff, and tells you that he knows everything and that everyone else is wrong, all sorts of red flags go up for me.

It's just a matter of time until some other guy, say some Chinese Kung-Fu master, writes a book telling us how Pavel and the Russians have it all wrong.

Louis


I understand your skepticism, so I say proceed with caution. I see people doing crunches and all sorts of things for the abs that can cause back problems. I am not a doctor, although I play one on TV. Hip flexors. hamstrings can cause back problems as well. Something to consider is find somebody thant can do a functional movement test "FMS". In Indianapolis A guy by the name of Rick Huse that works at Bob Blocks does this. Just an fwi for dekindy.

[firerescuefin]

I understand your skepticism, so I say proceed with caution. I see people doing crunches and all sorts of things for the abs that can cause back problems. I am not a doctor, although I play one on TV. Hip flexors. hamstrings can cause back problems as well. Something to consider is find somebody thant can do a functional movement test "FMS". In Indianapolis A guy by the name of Rick Huse that works at Bob Blocks does this. Just an fwi for dekindy.


Two cents....Pavel is an icon and has truly has brought some revolutionary fitness concepts forward. Yes, the marketing stuff is laid on "a lot thick".

The functional movement test has gained enough traction that they are employing it at the NFL combine to predict which athletes may be prone to injury or may be displaying early signs of a injury which hasn't presented itself. The sports physiologist that I work with has worked with Rick and it's for real. I would highly recommend getting this done if you have access, because it's a great diagnostic tool.

Most problems, when they present themselves are not one dimensional. Our bodies are great compensators...right up to the point where they can't compensate any longer...then the wheels come off. At that point, there needs to be thought and effort to put things back together again. Unfortunately, most people want quick fixes, and most PTs and fitness professionals do not have the desire and/or skillset to do that. At this point, many conclude that their problem is just part of "getting old" or that they are "falling apart" and fade into a life full of limitations and not doing the things that they used to do. To say that is unfortunate is a huge understatement.

[steampunk]

been practicing yoga now for +2 years.

for me this has been the best complementary fitness program to my cycling. another big plus from the yoga is core strength.

[christian]

What a lot of people think of low back flexibility is actually hip/hamstring flexibility.
This. Hip flexors, hammies, and quads. When they're tight, the back suffers.

[jh_on_the_cape]

My L4 and L5 are fecked and I have spondylosis and some other stuff going on down there. I stretch, do yoga, have a personal trainer for core, do Pilates, etc. Not in massive quantities but doing just a little work every day has done wonders for me. As long as I do the work, I feel as supple as a 14 year old Romanian gymnast. I can ride for 8 hours with no problem, ski 100 days a year, etc.

Conversely, if I don't do the work I lose flexibility in a hurry. After 10 days of business travel and neglect, this morning I was putting my pants on by bracing myself against the dresser with one arm while sort of hanging my pants down toward the ground with the other. Couldn't even stand freely and bend over.

How did you know your L4 and L5 are problematic? I ask because I am the same way. I did Pilates this winter and feel great, but maybe not like a 14 yr old Romanian gymnast.

[jh_on_the_cape]

Thanks for the advice everyone, a trip to the book store is in order I guess. I've tried some hot yoga here and there, it is hard (especially when the weather is good) to put in time doing yoga when I could be biking.
.

I totally agree with that. My wife dragged me to Pilates this winter and I hated it at first. But I toughed it out and am thankful. Try to find someone with whom to go. Find a good instructor and class. It makes a huge diff. I did that all winter, my flixibility increased, and now I can ride comfortably in the drops. It was like a new bike this spring. I have not been good with keeping at it, though...

[Charles M]

Is it changable?

You bet your ....



A good PT can not only help with your flexibility but in making the strength all round the core such that you're better supported.

[JohnHemlock]

Is it changable?

You bet your ....

A good PT can not only help with your flexibility but in making the strength all round the core such that you're better supported.

Also, buy Rapha. I bought a Rapha softshell and all my back pain goes away when wearing it. It's some sort of miracle fabric! :beer: