Di2 first impressions

[Ryun]

My di2 bike arrived a couple of days ago so I have just about 100 miles on it and thought I would post some initial impressions although most everything has been said.
first of all, let it be said that I have been a campy man since I did my first race in 92. I have 7900 briefly in anticipation of getting di2.
The setup is fairly straightforward once it is cabled up. The limit screws are the rear work like traditional derailleurs. nice and easy. Adjusting the rear "cable tension" is not hard although it is different and takes a minute or two to wrap your head around (or at least it did for me). Once done, it is sharp and precise.
The front derailleur is a good bit different and takes some tinkering with the angle adjustment (which is a great feature that I wish normal fds had) and the limit screws work a little different but nothing that you cant figure out.

The performance is fantastic. I am not sure the rear shifting is any quicker or more perfect than SR11 but it was easier to setup. I expect it to remain more consistent over time. One of the main reasons (insert advantages/justification/excuses/lies I tell my wife) I went di2 was the corrosive Florida air which eats rear der cables and slowly but surely detioriates rear shifting crispness. I dont think this will be as much of an issue with the di2. It shifts perfect under load and multiple shifts are not as quick with dumping an ergo lever but multiple taps go quickly.

front shifting is absolutely fantastic. Under load, in any cross gears, it just works and is noticably faster than anything I have ever tried. The 2011 campy stuff shifts on the front superbly but somehow this just kills it. teh auto trim feature is pretty cool. Despite just roughing the initial setup, no dropped chains and no mis-shifts

I like the front levers. They feel thinner than sti/ergolevers; more like plain old brake levers. I like but some others might not. Buttons have a nice feel although it will take some getting used to which does what. Most of the time its a no brainer but on the group ride last night I mis shifted in a lactate induced stupor. I am sure it will come to be natural.

Only a couple of gripes: The front derailleur is loud. for someone who likes silent bikes, i find it a touch annoying. When it autotrims, it sounds **exactly** like someone is rubbing the back wheel. I looked back a few times in the pack until I discovered what it was. I am sure I will get used to it but it is different.
The chain rolling over the cogs is noisier than what you get with campy. Nothing you would notice if you only ran shimano but it is different. Had the same issue on my 7900 group. I dont know what it is, maybe the hollow crank amplifying the sound. Everything is in adjustment, just noiser rolling over the chainrings. Not sram loud but it is still there.

The look is a bit bulky but if you have the cables integrated in the frame you can end up with a clean looking bike. I'll report back when I have a couple of thousand miles on it and see how it works with some wear on the chain/cog/servos. Also curious to see what battery life comes out to be.

Feel free to ask any questions.
Thanks
Ryun

[crownjewelwl]

so does this make you a convert??

you'll have quite a conundrum when/if campy tech lab actually gets released...

[WeakRider]

Thanks, really looking forward to trying it for myself. There is a really great review of DI2 (after a year of use, I believe) on the Weight Weenies forum, and the reviewer swears that it is the greatest thing since sliced bread. He liquidated almost all of his bike stuff to get it on two of his rigs. Hopefully your experience will be as positive as his.

[victoryfactory]

corrosive Florida air? That worked?
That's a stretch

Good luck with your setup. I only rode it once (on a trainer) and fell in
love immediately with the feel of a button push vs cable pull shifting.

And I agree that the auto trim is spooky good on FD

You will probably need a few more rides to really get the feel of the thing

Please let us know how it goes. I'm buying a mega millions ticket today...

VF

[pdmtong]

Ryun
I spent 50 miles and 3500' one afternoon last spring on a Di2 Tarmac SL3.
I thought it was fantastic. Similar reactions to yours.

If only the price was affodable to *me*. I'd skip pass 11 and go with the electrons....

[Ryun]

I dont know if I am a full convert but it is certainly a keeper.
There are rides where I am really into the aesthetic of the ride: the feel of the bike underneath me, the whirring of the freewheel, the tactile feel of the cable moving a derailleur. There are also times when I couldnt give two poops about all that and I just want to hang on the leadout, make the break, close the gap or not get dropped. For the latter type of ride, I dont think you can beat the group. Not that you are really any faster with it, it is just set it and forget it. For all the romantic notions of the bicycle (which as someone who has a bunch of steel campy equipped bikes, I am right there with you) sometimes I jsut want the bike to shut up and do what it is told. i think the di2 excels under those conditions.

I am not sure about the campy e group but I am sure I will try it esp if it works with di2 integrated frames with regards to wiring and battery mounts.
A weird thing has happened somewhere along the past few years. Shimano groups actually seem to have more metal in them and that appeals to me for some reason. I hate to say it but the cranks and brakes really appeal to me. The 7900 hubs are some of the most elegant out there in my opinion.
Wont stop me from having Campy bikes but it is an interesting turn of events.

As long as the efficiency and precision doesnt decline over time, the group is a keeper

I think most times a nice 11sp group would be the right pick for most people. The di2 groups I have seen added onto frames not made for them look a little busy imo.

If/when the pricepoint drops, they will own the upper end market. I can imagine on a cross bike for example this would just rock.

[WeakRider]

Those Shimano 7900 cranks are a work of beautiful, functional art. I'm on SRAM right now, but I can't wait to go back to Shimano.

[thwart]

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51xIzWnRMrL._SS500_.jpg
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5026/5632303621_e69aaa92ab_z.jpg

Nice review. Sounds a little like the manual trans vs automatic w/paddles debate...

[erolorhun]

Thanks for the write-up, Doesn`t see myself converting anytime soon (still a SSer or soon, dingle-rider) but I can imagine how e-shifting might/will catch on when Shimano inevitably will introduce an Ultegra group with Di2 at a lower price.

Edit: also think that 7800 series cranks are a bit nicer to behold than the 7900s, a bit too tecno-looking for my taste.

[Bob Ross]

http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/3838/worthlesshh1.gif

[Ryun]

Ok ok I will post pics. She is not quite ready for prime time. I am waiting on the black saddle and may swap some edge bars on there so please go easy on her. Still, even with out makeup, she is a stunner.

As for the cranks, I do like em. Mostly I am just tired of carbon everywhere

[Louis]

There are rides where I am really into the aesthetic of the ride: the feel of the bike underneath me, the whirring of the freewheel, the tactile feel of the cable moving a derailleur.

In that case, you need friction DT shifters. ;)

[Ryun]

I have a bike with those too...

[aoe]

hey ryun, do you have/tried the satellite shifters? seems like a nice advantage for cross or tri's....

[aoe]

that's real purty man...looks fast. Is it too early to call dibs on it?? otherwise I know all the other 52/56ers will be all over it....

[Climb01742]

how do you like the ride of the 'zetti? very pretty green, btw.

[Ryun]

I haven't tried the satellite shifters
I think for someone who climbed a lot it would be great
Most of our riding here is on the drops or tops.
I am going to get some more time on the bike and see if the sprinter buttons would be a good fit
I might try those soon

[Louis]

I have to believe that it's just a matter of time until they go wireless for the shift signal. That would clean things up quite a bit.

It will probably be longer until each derailleur gets it's own integrated battery, so they'll have those wires for a bit longer. Once that happens the only cables on the bike will be for the brakes. Of course the derailleurs themeselves will be pretty bulky, so I'm not sure what will be better, one wired battery with Di2 sized derailleurs, or two batteries intergrated into an even fatter derailleur.

[firerescuefin]

I have to believe that it's just a matter of time until they go wireless for the shift signal.

Given the prevelance of fly by wire in so many applications, I was shocked initially that this was not so with Di2.

[EDS]

Speaking of batteries, is it in the seat tube?

[Fixed]

cool set up
looks pro
nice job
cheers

[Ryun]

It is a little early to call dibs but you never know
Love the ride; I had forgotten how spot on these handle
The bigger head tube is visually nice and the deda fork is very smooth

I think the one central battery is a little more reliable and reduces the chance of gettig stuck. Keeping track of multiple batteries might be a recipe for trouble.
The battery is attached to the ISP. Keeps it out of the grime and is easy to ge to
This zetti has a pmp hear and slotted mast which is a little different than the normal topper.
I am so picky about my seat height I don't think I would want to pull the pair or sear to charge the battery

[Unpredictable]

Ahhhhh....corrosive Florida weather. Be careful, I have seen one guy's Di2 front derailiur corrode/stuck in his big ring position since he never shifted it down. Luckily, Shimano took care of it for him.

As per Wireless Di2....No way. Each component would need a battery to transmit/talk to each other. Way more weight with all those additional batteries and way too many chances of something malfunctioning. Shimano won't do it.

[jghall]

Ryun pretty much summed up my thoughts. Just wish it was a bit more affordable.

[saab2000]

CG hits another grand slam with that one. Nice ride!

[BdaGhisallo]

Given the prevelance of fly by wire in so many applications, I was shocked initially that this was not so with Di2.

Just to be sure, you do realize that 'fly by wire' implies the use of wiring. It's not 'fly by wireless'. This phrase came about when mechanical linkages, such as gear lever to gear box, were replaced by wires that passed on an electrical signal to actuators further on.

DI2 may not be fly by wire, but it's certainly ride by wire.

[oldpotatoe]

My di2 bike arrived a couple of days ago so I have just about 100 miles on it and thought I would post some initial impressions although most everything has been said.
first of all, let it be said that I have been a campy man since I did my first race in 92. I have 7900 briefly in anticipation of getting di2.
The setup is fairly straightforward once it is cabled up. The limit screws are the rear work like traditional derailleurs. nice and easy. Adjusting the rear "cable tension" is not hard although it is different and takes a minute or two to wrap your head around (or at least it did for me). Once done, it is sharp and precise.
The front derailleur is a good bit different and takes some tinkering with the angle adjustment (which is a great feature that I wish normal fds had) and the limit screws work a little different but nothing that you cant figure out.

The performance is fantastic. I am not sure the rear shifting is any quicker or more perfect than SR11 but it was easier to setup. I expect it to remain more consistent over time. One of the main reasons (insert advantages/justification/excuses/lies I tell my wife) I went di2 was the corrosive Florida air which eats rear der cables and slowly but surely detioriates rear shifting crispness. I dont think this will be as much of an issue with the di2. It shifts perfect under load and multiple shifts are not as quick with dumping an ergo lever but multiple taps go quickly.

front shifting is absolutely fantastic. Under load, in any cross gears, it just works and is noticably faster than anything I have ever tried. The 2011 campy stuff shifts on the front superbly but somehow this just kills it. teh auto trim feature is pretty cool. Despite just roughing the initial setup, no dropped chains and no mis-shifts

I like the front levers. They feel thinner than sti/ergolevers; more like plain old brake levers. I like but some others might not. Buttons have a nice feel although it will take some getting used to which does what. Most of the time its a no brainer but on the group ride last night I mis shifted in a lactate induced stupor. I am sure it will come to be natural.

Only a couple of gripes: The front derailleur is loud. for someone who likes silent bikes, i find it a touch annoying. When it autotrims, it sounds **exactly** like someone is rubbing the back wheel. I looked back a few times in the pack until I discovered what it was. I am sure I will get used to it but it is different.
The chain rolling over the cogs is noisier than what you get with campy. Nothing you would notice if you only ran shimano but it is different. Had the same issue on my 7900 group. I dont know what it is, maybe the hollow crank amplifying the sound. Everything is in adjustment, just noiser rolling over the chainrings. Not sram loud but it is still there.

The look is a bit bulky but if you have the cables integrated in the frame you can end up with a clean looking bike. I'll report back when I have a couple of thousand miles on it and see how it works with some wear on the chain/cog/servos. Also curious to see what battery life comes out to be.

Feel free to ask any questions.
Thanks
Ryun


I'd recommend getting a second battery and keeping it charged. One BIG short coming is if the battery is dead, you aren't gonna shift anything. The RD can't be manually pushed and left like ZAP/Mektronic...

[oldpotatoe]

Given the prevelance of fly by wire in so many applications, I was shocked initially that this was not so with Di2.

'Fly-BY-Wire' is not wireless(like the F-16N I flew).
Electronic 'stuff' in aircraft, cars, motorcycles, none are wireless. Going wireless for Di2 will create problems that it doesn't have now, IMHO.

[BdaGhisallo]

I'd recommend getting a second battery and keeping it charged. One BIG short coming is if the battery is dead, you aren't gonna shift anything. The RD can't be manually pushed and left like ZAP/Mektronic...

I wouldn't worry too much about that. I have been putting anywhere from 5 to 10 hours on my DI2 bike since August 2009 and I have charged the battery a total of three times! And before none of those charges did the control box register the battery at less than 50% capacity. I simply felt that it had been six months and I want to charge it!

Shimano purposefully understates the true capacity of the batteries.

[oldpotatoe]

I wouldn't worry too much about that. I have been putting anywhere from 5 to 10 hours on my DI2 bike since August 2009 and I have charged the battery a total of three times! And before none of those charges did the control box register the battery at less than 50% capacity. I simply felt that it had been six months and I want to charge it!

Shimano purposefully understates the true capacity of the batteries.

Had a local pro guy training here that came in and asked if we had a spare, charged battery since his was dead when he wanted to go ride.....

[Dave Wages]

I'd recommend getting a second battery and keeping it charged. One BIG short coming is if the battery is dead, you aren't gonna shift anything. The RD can't be manually pushed and left like ZAP/Mektronic...

I've seen this complaint quite a bit in discussion's about Di2, and it may be unfounded just a bit. A typical charge on a Di2 battery can last 1/2 a season or more, depending on use, and you also get reminded by the indicator when you battery is low on juice. It's not like a cell phone that needs to get charged every day or so.

FWIW, I can't wait for my personal Di2 frame to get back from paint so I can comment on my own experience with Di2. After building a few frames specifically for it, and test riding them, I'm sold!

Cheers,
Dave

[BdaGhisallo]

I've seen this complaint quite a bit in discussion's about Di2, and it may be unfounded just a bit. A typical charge on a Di2 battery can last 1/2 a season or more, depending on use, and you also get reminded by the indicator when you battery is low on juice. It's not like a cell phone that needs to get charged every day or so.

FWIW, I can't wait for my personal Di2 frame to get back from paint so I can comment on my own experience with Di2. After building a few frames specifically for it, and test riding them, I'm sold!

Cheers,
Dave

Exactly. And if someone ignores the big impending sign of a low battery - when DI2 stops shifting at the front - then they deserve what they get. Folks with little mechanical sympathy and understanding of how to properly use their gear get no slack from me. If you know what you are doing and take the basic steps to ensure DI2 works properly, you should never have an issue.

[avalonracing]

That looks like a Florida bike... In a good way.

[Bob Ross]

As per Wireless Di2....No way. Each component would need a battery to transmit/talk to each other. Way more weight with all those additional batteries and way too many chances of something malfunctioning.


Screw the weight, you ever do an RF Spectrum sweep of a modestly populated metropolitan area? Shimano would have a bazillion potential lawsuits coming at them from all the guys who got t-boned because they missed a shift while trying to sprint through a yellow light just as Mrs. Smith on the corner decided to rewind her TiVo.

[dd74]

Prices will have to come down before I get it. I'm just not sure they will come down.

[ultraman6970]

Well if the rider is one of those who are changing gears like if the bike was a 18 wheeler i agree, but for any racer or ex racer i doubt it should be an issue, that's why it would be good to just re charge 2 to 4 times a week, right?

I'd recommend getting a second battery and keeping it charged. One BIG short coming is if the battery is dead, you aren't gonna shift anything. The RD can't be manually pushed and left like ZAP/Mektronic...

[54ny77]

so awesome.

goodness i'd love to see that, if only for the sheer comedy of a massive product recall due to...people opening their garage doors.

Screw the weight, you ever do an RF Spectrum sweep of a modestly populated metropolitan area? Shimano would have a bazillion potential lawsuits coming at them from all the guys who got t-boned because they missed a shift while trying to sprint through a yellow light just as Mrs. Smith on the corner decided to rewind her TiVo.

[mike p]

Love that bike Ryun! One of my all-time fav's!

Mike

[Kingfisher]

nice bike ryun....what are the handlebars you are running on the zetti???

[Ryun]

Right now I have 3t rotundo pros. I have some edge bars to put on there once I get some bar tape.

[dd74]

Ryun,

What are your impressions of the standard 7900 you had on the bike before, particularly when compared to 7800, if you ever used 7800?

[Ryun]

Not much experience with 7800. only had it on my tt bike.
the standard 7900 was fine although I think the 11sp campy stuff is probably a touch better performing but that is really personal preference.
My only real complaint switching from campy to shimano at this point is I find the 7900 drivetrain a little noisy compared to my 11sp setups.

[dd74]

Not much experience with 7800. only had it on my tt bike.
the standard 7900 was fine although I think the 11sp campy stuff is probably a touch better performing but that is really personal preference.
My only real complaint switching from campy to shimano at this point is I find the 7900 drivetrain a little noisy compared to my 11sp setups.
Cool. Thanks.

[Z3c]

Well if the rider is one of those who are changing gears like if the bike was a 18 wheeler i agree, but for any racer or ex racer i doubt it should be an issue, that's why it would be good to just re charge 2 to 4 times a week, right?

The whole battery life concern is very overstated. I have been using Di2 for almost 2 years and have charged my battery about 5 times. Granted, I share my miles with another bike that has 7900 but it is still a long time between charges, typically 1250 miles or so. Add in that the battery charges in about an hour and it really ceases to be a problem.

[RPS]

Ok ok I will post pics. She is not quite ready for prime time. I am waiting on the black saddle and may swap some edge bars on there so please go easy on her. Still, even with out makeup, she is a stunner.
Nice looking bike. Even though I’m with Louis in that ultimately I’d prefer wireless, the cables are nicely routed and out of the way. Great job. :beer:

P.S. -- Color reminds me of the Keys.

[dd74]

So I'm out of the loop on this, but are there now frames made specifically for Di2, i.e., to route the wires and internally house the battery?

[Dave Wages]

So I'm out of the loop on this, but are there now frames made specifically for Di2, i.e., to route the wires and internally house the battery?


I built my first Di2 specific bike for last year's NAHBS, you can see pics here;

Ellis Di2 (https://picasaweb.google.com/stevewages/100219_Di2_frame#)

My battery mount is still external, but I think the internal wiring is about as clean as any other Di2 bike out there!

[Ryun]

I know a few guys who have home rigged an internal battery. I am not sure if that appeals to. The charge should last a long time on a charge but I still prefer have easy access to the battery. Removing the seat post to charge would freak me out since I am super picky about my saddle position.

[Dave Wages]

I know a few guys who have home rigged an internal battery. I am not sure if that appeals to. The charge should last a long time on a charge but I still prefer have easy access to the battery. Removing the seat post to charge would freak me out since I am super picky about my saddle position.

I agree, I think that external mounting is the way to go for now.

[dd74]

Ellis Di2 (https://picasaweb.google.com/stevewages/100219_Di2_frame#)

Whoa! :cool:

[Louis]

I know a few guys who have home rigged an internal battery.

But are the batteries connected to internal motors? ;)

[avalonracing]

Whoa! :cool:

You should have seen it in person!

[dd74]

So, is internal routing possible with a Serotta CdA, or might drilling small holes in the tubes compromise the frame's integrity?

[Mzilliox]

I am considering purchasing a bike with 10s Dura Ace 7970 Di2. Any updates on longevity of these systems? Now that there are newer versions can one still find support and parts if part of the system fails? I see no rear derailleurs available for this system right now, not even on ebay...???

I'd really like this bicycle, but not sure yet on electronic shiftings longevity. what say the collective wisdom?

sorry for digging up an old thread, but theres some good info here

[stien]

If you're going to buy into older di2, get 6770. With the right (old) firmware you can just swap the RD to run 11s. 7970 is no longer supported and whatever comes up for sale will probably fetch a premium because of people breaking things and not wanting to replace the entire system. When my bike spit out a 6770 RD I did the above because a new 6870 RD was the same price as a used 6770 RD. I think I broke even on the swap because I sold a 7950 crank to get a new 6800 crank.

[oldpotatoe]

I am considering purchasing a bike with 10s Dura Ace 7970 Di2. Any updates on longevity of these systems? Now that there are newer versions can one still find support and parts if part of the system fails? I see no rear derailleurs available for this system right now, not even on ebay...???

I'd really like this bicycle, but not sure yet on electronic shiftings longevity. what say the collective wisdom?

sorry for digging up an old thread, but theres some good info here

Not really. Unique ala DA 8s. No support from shimano and zero compatibility with ultegra 10s di2 and none with 11s. I'd look to get frame/fork or screaming deal.

[BdaGhisallo]

I would concur with Stien. Don't buy into a outdated system with no possibility of repair or replacement with like for like if something goes wrong.

Hunt down some 6770 or source some 6870 from a euro mail order place - it's pretty cheap right now.

[Mzilliox]

thanks guys, issue is on a complete bike sale, bike comes with DA 7970 Di2. I was hesitant at first, this makes me moreso

[stien]

You could always gamble and try to sell the 7970? Only if it's a good deal.

Check out the ebay sold ads (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=dura+ace+7970&_in_kw=1&_ex_kw=&_sacat=0&LH_Sold=1&_udlo=&_udhi=&_samilow=&_samihi=&_sadis=15&_stpos=02559&_sargn=-1%26saslc%3D1&_salic=1&_sop=12&_dmd=1&_ipg=50&LH_Complete=1) to get a feeling for what you can get (on ebay). Not here.

Looks like the RD is most expensive (big surprise - people destroy these).

[54ny77]

I still remember that bike and that it was for sale at one point here. It didn't quite fit me, otherwise i'd have been all over it like a hobo on a ham sandwich. It was gorgeous.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-LXSMLkf3XZg/S9p6jo_wQOI/AAAAAAAAGEU/_TBZvSPDCxk/s1024-Ic42/IMG_5206-Edit.jpg

I built my first Di2 specific bike for last year's NAHBS, you can see pics here;

Ellis Di2 (https://picasaweb.google.com/stevewages/100219_Di2_frame#)

My battery mount is still external, but I think the internal wiring is about as clean as any other Di2 bike out there!

[Ryun]

If you are looking at that Ellis that might change the opinion.
I love that bike and tried to get it the last few times it traded hands
Dave's work is off the charts

[Mzilliox]

If you are looking at that Ellis that might change the opinion.
I love that bike and tried to get it the last few times it traded hands
Dave's work is off the charts

Its not that Ellis... but something almost as lustworthy...

[shovelhd]

I had 7970 on the Felt with a custom internal battery. The RD failed and I was SOL. I had to get a new one. Your best bet for 7970 stuff is Slowtwitch. It was very popular for tri bikes. I see stuff pop up all the time over there.

The wiring is not compatible with e-tube so if you upgrade you will have to rerun. However 7970 wiring is larger than e-tube so you can use the old wiring as a pull string.

I'd stay away from 6770, outdated firmware, and 11 speed. It's a headache you don't need. Keep the bike 7970. Find spares if that makes you feel better. Upgrade when it makes sense to upgrade.

[Mzilliox]

I had 7970 on the Felt with a custom internal battery. The RD failed and I was SOL. I had to get a new one. Your best bet for 7970 stuff is Slowtwitch. It was very popular for tri bikes. I see stuff pop up all the time over there.

The wiring is not compatible with e-tube so if you upgrade you will have to rerun. However 7970 wiring is larger than e-tube so you can use the old wiring as a pull string.

I'd stay away from 6770, outdated firmware, and 11 speed. It's a headache you don't need. Keep the bike 7970. Find spares if that makes you feel better. Upgrade when it makes sense to upgrade.

I was looking for spares, especially rear Derailleur, and did not see any available, thus my concern. one can find full kits or FDs on ebay, but I have not seen a rear D anywhere, or i'd just grab one of each and call it good.

[shovelhd]

You didn't see any available today. They are quite valuable and go quickly. You have to be vigilant with obsolete parts. This isn't a Di2 thing.

[54ny77]

I'm am suitably prepared for an attack on our power grid by foreign or domestic lunatics via an abundance of mechanical 10 spd.

:p

You didn't see any available today. They are quite valuable and go quickly. You have to be vigilant with obsolete parts. This isn't a Di2 thing.

[Mzilliox]

I'm am suitably prepared for an attack on our power grid by foreign or domestic lunatics via an abundance of mechanical 10 spd.

:p

I also have stocked up on my mechanical campy 10s. another hesitation of getting into di2 from shimano. damn the bike world for changing things so much!:bike: