communiction

[ada@prorider.or]

why is it that if we say something like its the american way
that people at once go into protection thinking that we attack it
it can also be a way to say how other people look at it
its the same as we say he is african or he chinese

if we say negro we do not want to insult people just to say what he is ,as i am a white man the is a yellow man

is this a way of talking of interpetation?
same as a amrican come's to a hotel in holland and ask where is here mac donald well we say typical american

so what wrong with that?
i just cannot see it
its not our intention to insult people but we got the inpressison they think we are

i hardly see any american in a dutch forum? meaby he sould try to expres him selve then in dutch
i bet it would be diffucult!
:crap:

[Doc Austin]

English is a very difficult to learn as a second language. Most of the time if someone says something whacky and English isn't thier natural language I will laugh and give them the benifit of the doubt.



Warning The following is parody

People are much too sensitive these days.

Oh.....wait. I just made a mass generalization!

Oh.....wait..............that makes me a bigot!

Oh, the humanity!

[fiamme red]

i hardly see any american in a dutch forum? meaby he sould try to expres him selve then in dutch
i bet it would be diffucult!
:crap:
How to treat the Dutch (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.fan.countries.netherlands/msg/6ba21ade4bdbd485?hl=en)
"Never use the word 'Dutch' in front of a Hollander. It reminds him too much of the word 'Deutsch' which is a word for Germans and other things he doesn't like. A Dutchman is a Hollander or a Nederlander."

[1centaur]

It will be interesting to see how many people want to take this thread on.

There has been a largely successful attempt in recent years by certain groups to rope off certain words as forbidden to be spoken upon pain of public ridicule and scorn. "Negro" is one such word, which has resulted in "the N word" being the only generally acceptable way to make that reference, whether Negro was meant in a racist way or not (some people have forgotten at this point that a word is not inherently racist, as a look in the dictionary would reveal). This is a very disappointing way to proceed through life - we ought to be utterly free to use any word and should be judged on our intent.

In e-mail/forums, intent is harder to judge - tone, expression, inflection all are lost. One needs to be much simpler is such communications so as to not to go round and round.

On the McDonald's note, however, I must add that as an American who spent some childhood/teen years in England, the phrase "typical American" was never spoken with respect, affection, or even factual neutrality. What makes an American who goes to McDonald's typical? I could belabor the point, but I can think of no way that such a feeling is not tainted with negativity. Moreover, anti-Americanism (too big, too loud, too pushy, too rich, too powerful, too dogmatic, too fat, too crass, too tasteless) has long been generic in Europe - deal with Europeans one on one and you have a chance to impress, but that sub-rosa jealousy/disdain/superiority thing tends to surface when the numbers get much bigger in either direction. And yes, I realize that's a stereotype, though it's one I came to believe from living there, not one I assessed from afar.

I will hope that Holland is not in the typical European camp in this regard.

[Dekonick]

I will hope that Holland is not in the typical European camp in this regard.

It is :(

[Doc Austin]

On the McDonald's note, however, I must add that as an American who spent some childhood/teen years in England, the phrase "typical American" was never spoken with respect, affection, or even factual neutrality.

Well that's a relief. The typical Americans can take all the heat and I can cruise because I'm an "ugly American."

[Fixed]

As a black bike messenger I get called the (N) word about once a week after over ten years on the job it still hurts but hey I am out on my bike 5 days a week.I also see some really nice people who would go out of their way to help me.People come all different ways but far more good than bad.That 's the way I see it, but I am just a bike messenger.

[RichMc]

For those of you who are old enough to have seen the film "The Americanization of Emily", later just "Emily", there is a wonderful sceen where Julie Andrews lays the "typical American" put down on James Garner. His comeback lines are priceless. It was a great movie that was probably over the heads of too many people to be super sucessful. Definitely worth watching if you can find it.

[oracle]

sr. beers,

is your post related to or inspired by the roger hammond-john lieswyn 'debate' published recently during wachovia?

p.s. as a naturalized, but not natural american, i believe that i can see both sides of the story fairly well without being blinded by either; those who insist on vociferously stating the case of the 'ugly american' , as well as those who would deny that the concept as a device has any explanatory power have their heads rather far up their arses.

oracle

[Sandy]

You are undoubtedly much more than just a bike messenger, probably one of the reasons you find "far more good than bad." Unfortunately, I hear about, read about, and see a lot more bad than ever before.

Sandy

[oracle]

You are undoubtedly much more than just a bike messenger, probably one of the reasons you find "far more good than bad." Unfortunately, I hear about, read about, and see a lot more bad than ever before.

Sandy


dear sandy,

do you think that this is due to the fact that the world has changed, or to the fact that you have changed, or to perhaps both?

sincerely,

oracle



p.s.

once allies laughed and drank. but it was forty years ago. where i come from. they don't like americans much. think they're so loud, so tasteless, and so out of touch. stiff upper lips are curled into permanent sneers. self satisfied. awaiting the next forty years.
once allies cried and cheered. but it was forty years ago.

forty years
joe jackson, big world, 1986
live, direct to two-track

[Sandy]

I have changed, as all of us do to some degree as we age, but I think that is independent of the excellent question that you have asked. I think that both the world in which we live and the people that live in it have changed.

A major change in the world is instant communication. Events, minor or major, are reported in a remarkably short time via TV, computer websites, e-mails, cell phones, radio, wireless computers,... The technology and delivery of events are expanding rapidly. People know much quicker than ever about events that have happened, and hence can react to events much quicker, which maintains the continuity and fluidity of related events. A great deal of related events can be compressed into a much smaller time frame. In fact, because of the quickness of communication, events are not singular, but are a continuum of little multi-events, thus prolonging and perpetuating both "good" and "bad".

I believe that there have been major changes in values, family structure, ethical base, consequences of actions, acceptance of responsibilty of actions, and even consideration of consequences of action.

The family of today is not, in my humble opinion, the family of 50-100 years ago in the USA. The family of before was comprised of a mother, a father, some kids, and maybe a dog, cat, or horses. There was a family unity, and kids had to answer to their parents. There was always a consequence for children's actions, and they knew it. Today the family structure and unity are disappearing. Kids have many more interests and many more ways of finding instant gratification. They have a multitude of choices that didn't exist before. Kids don't feel as if they have a purpose in life.

I AM GOING TO POST THIS AND CONTINUE ON ANOTHER POST.

Sandy

[Sandy]

Consider the family of today. Too often the family is one with kids, often with different fathers, living in a one parent home, with the father missing or even not known by the kids. Drug usage has caused havoc on the family unit, and often it is an ongoing problem that perpetuates the demise of the family unit. Kids are more and more being disrespectful to not only their peers, but even to their teachers and parents.

A large change is that not only are kids not held as responsible for their actions as previously, they often now seem not even to consider consequences of what they do. Part of that is due to the breakdown in family structure and even changes in religious values. Part of it is because of the many more opportunities for instant gratification. There are simply many more things to do and easier access to them, due to improved transportation, better communication, superior marketing, and ever improving and changing technologies for obtaining gratification. Kids and adults no longer have to work as hard to obtain such. Parents have major personal and family obligations, and time often is not alloted efficiently or effectively.

I taught high school math in an area public high school from 1962 to about 1971. The kids were great. I never remember a student being disrespectful to me. Sure kids drank some on the weekends, but drugs usage was almost a non-issue in school just 35 years ago. Drug usage is now rampant in schools.There was never student on teacher violence that exists today, nor was student on student violence as brutal, unnecessary, and prevalent as today. Now if a kid wants a jacket from another kid and he won't give it up, a solution of today is to take it from him, possibly beating him up or killing him or her as you do it.

There are more and more gangs and clubs that kids belong to than ever before, often replacing the family as a unit. It is where the kids receive their self worth, and find things to do. The gangs and clubs of today are the families of the past.

Remember the killings in the tower in Austin Texas on the collge campus? It was simply startling and horrific, to say the least. It was unimaginable at that time for someone to be at the top of a tower shooting at and killing people for no apparent reason. If it happened today, most of us would not react to it as back then because tragedies like that are simply almost common place now. In fact, a copy cat event could likely occur now. There was a first student on student mass violence. Ther have been more after the first, and will be more in the future.

We all too easily accept the suicide killings and reprisals in the Middle East, and horribly the daily killings that occur in Iraq and elsewhere are simply accepted as normalcy. Certainly, in my opininion, the world has changed. Many would say that people have not changed and that bad people have always been there and that efficient communication of such did not exist. Those who know much more about history than I know could obviously point oput an abundance of examples supporting that hypothesis. But to me, I think that people here in the USA have definitely changed, as a function of communication changes, the demise of the family unit, expanding arenas for instant gratification, lack of consequnces for a person's actions, and a I am not responsile for that attitude.

The USA and the rest of the world are much more dangerous. Extremists have no regard to humanity and a person's worth or value. That attitude, most importantly, seems to be developing as a characteristic of some kids here today. We face a remarkably changing world after the terrorist attack in the USA. I unfortunately see another one here as almost a certainty. It is only a matter of when. Certainly the world has chnged.

Please excuse my spelling and grammatical errors. I don't even remember what I said herein.

Sandy

[Too Tall]

Cees, to answer your point. I believe it is because people are often and unforutnately too lazy to engage in meaningful discussion and seek a "connection" with others. Saddly, an ability to make human connections are a defining quality that what makes us human and distinguishes us as a singularly unique species.

PS - Clinchers Suck

[Fixed]

I read the other day we watch Friends on T.V. instead of making friends.Sandy thanks for your kind words.

[Sandy]

You are welcome to be my friend, anytime. Maybe one day you will teach me how to ride a fixed gear bike. Those here in Maryland have been trying to talk me into riding one for a long time.

I will always remember an incident while being in Manhattan New York, visiting my very ill bother-in-law who was at Sloan Kettering (spelling?) hospital. A black messenger rode up on his very non-descript bike and locked it to a pole. His saddle was very high, with a very large saddle to handlebar drop. His old and very worn saddle was tilted way downward in a position that seemed as if he would have great pressure on his arms and neck and significant discomfort.

When this messenger came out of the building, and I was going to give him some advice about saddle height and proper positioning of a saddle.But, I never said anything to him. I was just standing there in awe as he simply cycled off, weaving in and out of the terrible traffic in Manhattan, as if his bike was part of him. This effortless cycling display of handling was all done without him ever touching his handlebar. I will never forget it. I think I thought to myself, that it was best that I didn't try to "help" him. He certainly didn't need my help at all in cycling, for sure. It was a very memorable experience.

Sandy

[Fixed]

I am not a very good bike racer but Iam good at racing buses and taxies and can do a no hand track stand.Today I beat a bus but a taxie beat me at the line I was Major Taylor today he would have beat that taxie. Thanks ,one of the things I do is tranport med. records and I hope in some small way help people.

[Ginger]

"Every communication exchange is a power struggle. Every statement made is an effort to sway the other side over to the thought ways of the speaker."
(positive or negative)

I think the problem as Cees states it is a lack of literacy in the general population. I've had conversations where my friends have come away saying "can you believe that person used that word to describe that person?" Well, yes I can. It was a correct use of a non-threatening, non-demeaning word...what's the problem? The flip flop of that is when someone doesn't "have" the correct word and uses a demeaning word in the correct word's place. In those instances, I do my best to provide the person with the correct term that they're missing.

People of many nations have latched onto the idea of Political Correctness in speech without understanding the underlying premis that all people deserve to be addressed in a non-threatening, non-demeaning manner. However, puritanical political correctness in communications has caused people in some regions to be hyper-sensitive to some particular words or forms of speech. People get offended when they shouldn't.

Lack of understanding of political correctness also causes some words to be continue to be used in common conversation in some regions. Some words don't have a place in regular conversations, but many common words that describe things most correctly are misunderstood by a large portion of people. The words just "sound like" an offensive word.


That said: I was married to a first generation (he was the first generation of his family born in the US) Hollander. His family was extremely disappointed that he married an American. They seemed to forget that he was an American himself...as were they. They had no use for me. And I came, over time, from the negative exposure to them to have a view of Hollanders that I have to work to not apply to each one I meet.
Sad really.


If I only held to those who communicated like myself, dressed like myself, lived like myself, or believed like myself, I would have a very small world wouldn't I.

[zap]

1centuar post reflects my experience as well.

Cees, it is important to be clear when corresponding, be it with friends or business partners. In my opinion, it does not matter if English is a second language. This is an english language forum so take the time. If needed, write in your language and let us figure it out.

I've seen other cycling forums degenerate to stupidity for a variety of reasons including stereotyping. I'd rather see it nipped in the bud (right or wrong) and have these types of threads to sort issues out.

Also Cees, if you are participating in this forum as an enthusiast, then might I suggest a different forum ID.

[davids]

As human beings, we have an innate tendency to create and use categories. Categories help us organize our experience of the world (thanks, Claude Levi-Strauss!) But, as mental shortcuts, they also lead us into trouble:

We tend to put people into categories, too - by sex, nationality, skin color, etc. (Don't get me started on "race" - More poor science and misery from that single misconception than anyone can grasp!)

Then we assign traits to those categories, based on generalities. Many times, there is something concrete behind the generalities. But they're still just generalities - They may, in some way, apply to the category we've created, but not with any rigor.

And then, we encounter individuals, we mentally assign them to our categories, and apply those broad categorical generalities to the individual! Leaping over so many logical gaps that it's a miracle we ever manage to get past "hello".

Just your typical urban-dwelling, grad-school-educated, public-sector-employed, Jewish, 40-something, punk-rock-loving, married, liberal, private-school-parent, male, east-coast cyclist. ;)

[oracle]

sandy,

please consider this a small advance of my thanks to you for such a sincere and detailed reply to my question. i will have to postpone any further contribution to the discourse for a day or two as i am going to be very busy with a container from kazakhstan....

sincerely,

oracle