Latest Rouleur

[oldpotatoe]

Interview with Valentino Campagnolo...

"Once upon a time, Campagnolo was the only choice for the discerning racing cyclist, now it is not. Perhaps their days of dominance in the professional peloton are well and truly over as mass market manufacturers, who focus more closely on economic agenda and market saturation at any cost, take their place."

Page 48 of the current Rouleur.

That speaks volumes and can be applied to may products from watches to motorcycles to cameras to automobiles. 'Courage of your convictions' comes to mind.

Very interesting, part 2 next issue.

[AngryScientist]

it is still the only choice for this discerning cyclist :D

[cody.wms]

Everyone makes pretty good stuff now. I still like Campagnolo the best, personally.

But overall, I think the sentiment is true for alot of brands that were once the pinnacle of their field. I loved my parent's early 80s diesel Mercedes Benzes. My dad's had over 350K when it was sold, and it was still going strong. Good value, despite the high cost. Today, even if I had the cash, I wouldn't look to hard at what MB has to offer. I feel that I can find the quality elsewhere without paying for the name.

[biker72]

All the big bike manufacturers have gone with Shimano or SRAM.
Try to find a Trek, Specialized,or Felt with a Campy drive train.

[crownjewelwl]

All the big bike manufacturers have gone with Shimano or SRAM.
Try to find a Trek, Specialized,or Felt with a Campy drive train.

That's cuz campy doesn't OEM...

[JohnHemlock]

Interesting, will have to check it out. Their dominance in the pro peloton is most definitely over, at least for now.

I don't think I can ride anything else. First of all, it works great for me. Secondly, I can't really imagine Tullio Sram laboring in his shop, Gepetto-like. And Shimano made all the fishing reels I used as a kid, not sure I want to get my bike stuff the same place I get my largemouth bass stuff!

I really enjoyed the Shimano article in Rouleur a year or two ago. I didn't get the feeling they were after market saturation at any cost, I appreciated their thoughtful approach to the market.

[Ahneida Ride]

Cycling is one sport where the average Joe can afford better stuff then the Joe Pros.

[roydyates]

And Shimano made all the fishing reels I used as a kid, not sure I want to get my bike stuff the same place I get my largemouth bass stuff!

I don't fish but I do like to speculate; perhaps fishing and recreational cycling share some characteristics. For both, adults spend a lot of time (and money) seeking a certain special experience. Because of the many hours, the participants become ultra sensitive to small variations in the equipment, differences of feel that are indistinguishable and irrelevant to those less interested. For shimano, engineering the responsive click of a brifter is perhaps quite similar to engineering the response of a rod or reel.

So, with that speculation, is shimano in fishing the equivalent of shimano in cycling? Or will it turn out that in fishing, shimano makes Dept store/Sports Authority dreck?

[flickwet]

Campy vs Shimano and SRAM, need different brake compounds Shimano/Sram no problemo, Wheel problem? switchin' casettes? no sweat. Campy is gonna be the Spain of Europe with their different gauge RR tracks, and it will obsolete them, and I love Campy its on all my bikes so it breaks my heart a little to write this

[BdaGhisallo]

That's cuz campy doesn't OEM...

I think that Campy has somewhat settled into that position. Let's face it, they made attempts to establish themselves in OEM in the 90s and early 00s and they failed. They also made an entry in the mountain bike market and that was an abysmal failure. For me, that puts a different light on their current niche and how they got there. You can either say that they finally found their niche after experimenting or you could say that they tried different things and currently reside in the only sector in which they haven't failed as a business.

I know Campy makes great high end gear, but so do the other big two manufacturers. The other two seem to be better run businesses though.

[rnhood]

Interview with Valentino Campagnolo...

"Once upon a time, Campagnolo was the only choice for the discerning racing cyclist, now it is not. Perhaps their days of dominance in the professional peloton are well and truly over as mass market manufacturers, who focus more closely on economic agenda and market saturation at any cost, take their place."





Now this highlights just how out of touch Valentino is in the cycling venue today. In fact Shimano, generally speaking, has been producing a better quality product than Campagnolo for the past 30+ years, and they did this by fueling their innovative engine and refining their industrialization processes, not by focusing on some economic agenda and market saturation at any cost.
Baloney.

Sounds like Valentino is whining and bitching because Shimano just plain outsmarted him. Once upon a time Campagnolo was innovative and dynamic, but we live in a competitive society and a company can not afford to sit back enjoying wine and spaghetti thinking they will remain king of cycling doctrine.

Maybe Valentino should brush up his skills at seducing women and cooking spaghetti, because I have my doubts Campy is going to make it as a company - not in their current guise anyway.

[oldpotatoe]

Campy vs Shimano and SRAM, need different brake compounds Shimano/Sram no problemo, Wheel problem? switchin' casettes? no sweat. Campy is gonna be the Spain of Europe with their different gauge RR tracks, and it will obsolete them, and I love Campy its on all my bikes so it breaks my heart a little to write this

Campagnolo with their unique cogset spacing and bolt diameter, has been that way for over 25 years and it hasn't 'obsoleted' them yet.

Somebody asked Valentino why he didn't make a shimano compatible freehub(he does now, has since 1999) and he mentioned that Campagnolo cogsets are easy to dfind, why make a HG one?

Cogsets, brake pads, chains, etc, are easy to find. Lazy bike shops here and in Europe is the problem. Outside tech reps, like Campagnolo once had, would do wonders dispelling the 'black art' mystique of Campagnolo.

[oldpotatoe]

Now this highlights just how out of touch Valentino is in the cycling venue today. In fact Shimano, generally speaking, has been producing a better quality product than Campagnolo for the past 30+ years, and they did this by fueling their innovative engine and refining their industrialization processes, not by focusing on some economic agenda and market saturation at any cost.
Baloney.

Sounds like Valentino is whining and bitching because Shimano just plain outsmarted him. Once upon a time Campagnolo was innovative and dynamic, but we live in a competitive society and a company can not afford to sit back enjoying wine and spaghetti thinking they will remain king of cycling doctrine.

Maybe Valentino should brush up his skills at seducing women and cooking spaghetti, because I have my doubts Campy is going to make it as a company - not in their current guise anyway.

shimano isn't the company Valentino is referring to, sram is.

Is Rolex king of the time piece doctrine? How about Ducati? Alfa Romeo? Even Audi?

30 years ago, 1981, shimano looked just like Campagnolo but wasn't as durable, BTW.

People have been shutting the doors on Campagnolo since the late 80's, with the horrible MTB stuff and their idea that click shifting wasn't going to appeal to 'real' cyclists. Hasn't happened. I think Campagnolo likes their location in the market and don't see it as viable to make mediocre stuff, marketed extensively(sram). And then flood the market with it. sram has hurt shimano far more than Campagnolo, BTW-They have taken 1/2 of shimano's OEM market, road and MTB.

[FlashUNC]

I have to wonder long-term how much Shimano and SRAM will cannibalize each other in the marketplace, and whether that's something Campy will be able to capitalize on.

[oldpotatoe]

I have to wonder long-term how much Shimano and SRAM will cannibalize each other in the marketplace, and whether that's something Campy will be able to capitalize on.

I wonder how long sram can sell OE at cost or below and have such a 'generous', no-questions-asked warranty policy. PLUS they sponsor anybody that asks. They are big but I think they have to improve their reliability and function if they want to stay, long term.

[FlashUNC]

I wonder how long sram can sell OE at cost or below and have such a 'generous', no-questions-asked warranty policy. PLUS they sponsor anybody that asks. They are big but I think they have to improve their reliability and function if they want to stay, long term.

My first experience with them was SRAM Rival on my Redline cross bike. No complaints, its been solid stuff, though I'd definitely describe it as functional and "good for what it is."

I think they are being smart with Apex and targeting the low-end OEM market, because at some point some of those low-end buyers end up buying the fancy, high-end stuff, right? Well, that, and Apex's 32 rear granny gear is appealing to someone like me who can't climb a mountain to save his life.

[Lovetoclimb]

Cogsets, brake pads, chains, etc, are easy to find. Lazy bike shops here and in Europe is the problem. Outside tech reps, like Campagnolo once had, would do wonders dispelling the 'black art' mystique of Campagnolo.

Absolutely agree that more bike shops should stock Campagnolo product. I am sponsored by a terrific shop but he stocks almost all OEM bikes and only 2 of his 30 in inventory have Campagnolo. And Athena to boot. Considering a Pinarello Paris can be OEM spec'd with Campagnolo Chorus, but the distributor will not send it to the shop with Record, I wonder if the problem does occur farther up the proverbial chain . . .

[Tony Edwards]

I haven't built a new road bike in several years and have no real experience with SRAM, but for most of my adult life I've preferred Campy to Shimano in terms of their implementation of brifters, their aesthetics, and the "feel" of their components. I don't care for the appearance of the current levers but it appears to me Campy is, at a minimum, solidly competitive with Shimano and SRAM in terms of price and performance, so I'd like to see them spec'ed on at least SOME high-end bikes.

[GuyGadois]

Now this highlights just how out of touch Valentino is in the cycling venue today. In fact, Shimano, generally speaking, has been producing a better quality product than Campagnolo for the past 30+ years, and they did this by fueling their innovative engine and refining their industrialization processes, not by focusing on some economic agenda and market saturation at any cost.
Baloney.

Yikes, please check your references. Bold statement, yes, any factual backing, no. The sentence should have started with "In my opinion", not "In fact".

-Gadois-

[dixiesdad]

I read the magazine article also and was thinking about how I got into cycling in the mid 1960s (Raleigh 3 speed which we called an "English racer") and the cream of the crop was the campy nuovo record on a raleigh professional in the mid 70s. In the mid 80s you bought frames only and built them up with your favorite parts...today do you want the 105 model, the ultregra model, or the DA model.????..I have owned Dura Ace, SRAM, Mavic, simplex/huret and Suntour groups and they are all special in there own right but I have always had good luck with the Campy parts, and somehow will buy them first if I have a choice. I own two raleighs from the 70s and the old campy parts are still beautiful...I find little beauty in current carbon cranks. I recently was looking at building a new Mercian I purchased, and dug around the parts bin and realized I was only 2 campy items short of a build, the rear der. and the shifters. That was my first thought before doing a SRAM or shimano group. I have always been opportunistic as many of the forum members on buying NOS or slightly used parts and think years from now that will also be the case with sram and for many shimano the last 20 years. It is all good but campy somehow is my default. PS got the SACHS built pics to follow...guess what.. a campy NOS record group.......

[BdaGhisallo]

I haven't built a new road bike in several years and have no real experience with SRAM, but for most of my adult life I've preferred Campy to Shimano in terms of their implementation of brifters, their aesthetics, and the "feel" of their components. I don't care for the appearance of the current levers but it appears to me Campy is, at a minimum, solidly competitive with Shimano and SRAM in terms of price and performance, so I'd like to see them spec'ed on at least SOME high-end bikes.

From what I understand, the problem with OEM for Campy is that they are too small a company to cope with the volumes that OEM would require of them. The high end component market is tiny compared to the mid and lower market OEM world - tiny. Additionally, OEM pricing is a good bit below wholesale pricing for aftermarket componentry. Could Campy even handle that volume and pricepoint without investing a huge amount into their production capacities in order to scale up? Probably not, imo. They may see it as not worth trying to compete with Shimano and Sram who are huge companies in comparison.

[oldpotatoe]

From what I understand, the problem with OEM for Campy is that they are too small a company to cope with the volumes that OEM would require of them. The high end component market is tiny compared to the mid and lower market OEM world - tiny. Additionally, OEM pricing is a good bit below wholesale pricing for aftermarket componentry. Could Campy even handle that volume and pricepoint without investing a huge amount into their production capacities in order to scale up? Probably not, imo. They may see it as not worth trying to compete with Shimano and Sram who are huge companies in comparison.

Altho denied by Campagnolo SRL and USA, I believe Athena and below design was done with asian manufacturing in mind...not only for the volume but being where the frames are made.

[Ti Designs]

Cycling is one sport where the average Joe can afford better stuff then the Joe Pros.

Below average Joes too...

[dave thompson]

Below average Joes too...
That would be me.

[1centaur]

I wonder how long sram can sell OE at cost or below and have such a 'generous', no-questions-asked warranty policy. PLUS they sponsor anybody that asks. They are big but I think they have to improve their reliability and function if they want to stay, long term.

Hmm, I read this and then re-read the financial statements, since I'm professionally invested in SRAM, and have been for years. I'm pretty happy with the numbers I am seeing. I'll leave it at that.

[Charles M]

SRAM are not selling OE at or below cost...


Interview with Valentino Campagnolo...

"Once upon a time, Campagnolo was the only choice for the discerning racing cyclist, now it is not. Perhaps their days of dominance in the professional peloton are well and truly over as mass market manufacturers, who focus more closely on economic agenda and market saturation at any cost, take their place."

Page 48 of the current Rouleur.

That speaks volumes and can be applied to may products from watches to motorcycles to cameras to automobiles. 'Courage of your convictions' comes to mind.

Very interesting, part 2 next issue.


One set of ears might hear "courage of convictions" and another might here "sour grapes".

But then (and I say this knowing that two sides make things better for everyone) I'm usually greasy "french fries or chips" versus the standard Old Potato :D



That's cuz campy doesn't OEM...

Partial answer... It's like saying F1 stopped racing with BMW, Toyota and Honda.


Someone might read that and think that it was a sudden choice by Campagnolo to take the high road...

Campy were very interested in spec business. I've conversed with lots of manufacturers about their OEM choices over the past several years and Campy product was on OE offer and considered by most major brands until recently.

The more accurate statement would be that Bicycle Manufacturers moved away from Campagnolo rathar than "Campy doesn't OEM".

[oldpotatoe]

SRAM are not selling OE at or below cost...





One set of ears might hear "courage of convictions" and another might here "sour grapes".

But then (and I say this knowing that two sides make things better for everyone) I'm usually greasy "french fries or chips" versus the standard Old Potato :D





Partial answer... It's like saying F1 stopped racing with BMW, Toyota and Honda.


Someone might read that and think that it was a sudden choice by Campagnolo to take the high road...

Campy were very interested in spec business. I've conversed with lots of manufacturers about their OEM choices over the past several years and Campy product was on OE offer and considered by most major brands until recently.

The more accurate statement would be that Bicycle Manufacturers moved away from Campagnolo rathar than "Campy doesn't OEM".

lessee.....electric Rolex, 'peoples' Porsche, 'baby' Benz...

high road? by these guys but not by Valentino?

As for selling below cost. Sure the comment would be, they don't do that, since it's illegal.....dumping but ''buy x groups at $$$ and we'll sell these at $$$...promise not to swap cranks...total is not below cost but...

[oldpotatoe]

Hmm, I read this and then re-read the financial statements, since I'm professionally invested in SRAM, and have been for years. I'm pretty happy with the numbers I am seeing. I'll leave it at that.

sram, rockshox, avid, truvativ, zipp..missing anybody?

[1centaur]

How much would you have to sell below cost before it showed up in profit margin?

As I stated some years ago, I think on another board, I have never seen a management that knows its business and its competitors (Shimano and Campy) so well. I look at 500+ business plans a year, most years, from big, successful companies looking to raise $100 million or more. SRAM's plan stood out when I first invested and stood out again when they refinanced. They really understand what the market was asking for and they delivered it, if the inventory at most LBSs is any indication.

[oldpotatoe]

How much would you have to sell below cost before it showed up in profit margin?

As I stated some years ago, I think on another board, I have never seen a management that knows its business and its competitors (Shimano and Campy) so well. I look at 500+ business plans a year, most years, from big, successful companies looking to raise $100 million or more. SRAM's plan stood out when I first invested and stood out again when they refinanced. They really understand what the market was asking for and they delivered it, if the inventory at most LBSs is any indication.

No doubt, they know how to sell to frame manufacturers, know how to talk to product managers. Low cost(both manufacturing and costs OE), high inventory, good delivery.

I am sure part of the 'profit margin' includes sponsorship and warranty items. I am sure some segments of sram are more 'profitable' than others. Like the MTB side, probably Avid. BUT having tons of bikes on the floor from the 'big boys' equipped with sram and seeing sponsored riders everywhere, I'm not sure that's a reflection of the 'market' or an attempt to influence the market.

sram's doing well, no doubt but my conversations with various wrenches, both in bike shops and on pro teams, sram MTB is very good, sram road has a ways to go in terms of reliability and function.

But Look, if ya like it, use it.

My original post was about an interesting article about Valentino Campagnolo and his view of the market.

I am tapping out of this 'good company/components-bad company/components' discussion. I have a Campagnolo tattoo, not a sram one.