Enlighten Me About Track Wheels

[2LeftCleats]

Thanks in advance for drenching me with the collective wisdom of this forum.

My daughter rides for one of the Indiana University Little 500 teams. The race is Friday. (Men on Sat). A coach for a men's team (and former track racer and college coach) has built up some Velocity A23-based wheels for several teams and swears they're noticebly faster than whatever the generic wheels are on the bikes (I think Open Pro or similar). Talks about the decreased rolling resistence inherent in the rim's design. He wants to rent a couple of sets to the girls' team for this weekend. It's costly enough that the girls themselves can't afford them, but I might be willing to make the donation, if it's not hype or overkill.

My understanding is that they are a little faster on pavement. But the Little 5 is run on a 1/4 mile cinder track oval on relatively heavy Schwinn single speed bikes with platform pedals. The speeds are typically about 21-22 mph average for the better girls' teams. The cinder firmness varies daily as a function of weather conditions (tend to be more compacted and faster when damp), but isnt' as hard as concrete or asphault. Also the cinders are loose, so that there is at least some slippage as tires go over them. Seems to me that the 'give' in the surface might mitigate any advantage of the wheel design. I don't think anyone's actually done any head to head testing to verify any of this. Of course the teenage girls believe that this will give them a huge advantage, but other than psychologically, I'm skeptical. But then, I'm pretty ignorant about this stuff.

Any thoughts? Thanks again.

[markie]

Optimized contact patch for lower rolling resistance?

http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=34855

Open pros are narrower, like 17mm vs 23 mm for the A23.

Will either rim make the riders noticeably faster? Not likely.

[rice rocket]

I'd focus on tires first if there is a need to focus on equipment.

Wheels alone? Sounds like a quack (or someone trying to make a quick buck). The 23mm wide rims will also cause issues w/ some brakesets.

[Ti Designs]

You could rent the so called faster wheels. You could probably buy some better tires for about the same. Or you could save the money and tell them you put on magic tires.

[2LeftCleats]

Thanks for the feedback. Maybe I'll save my money for some better wheels for myself.

[woolly]

Are those bikes still coaster-brake equipped?

[ultraman6970]

Ex track racer in here... sincerely it wont make any difference. This will long to read ok?

You are talking at University level racing in a dirt track, so put his super wheels wont make any difference. Accidents happens also so I would not even dare to ride in there with low spoke wheels, what your daughter needs for the track and for this race in specific is this...

36 spokes, 3x laced in both wheels, 25 mm CYCLOCROSS TUBULAR TIRES, and a classic 23 mm boxed rim. Done! As for the hubs even a set of formula hubs will do the job, easy to fix, cheap and they are hard to kill. Always good to have campagnolo/shimano track hubs tho. For the ones that are thinking in weight... this is about reliability not weight!

The trick if you get a wheel like this is that the tubular rolls easier than the best clincher in the market, will absorb the imperfections way better also, have you ever wonder why serious CX riders here in the forums always use tubulars? Is not because are slower than clinchers...

Can't understand how the guy (the coach) is saying the wheel he built is faster when he is still thinking in clinchers. Track bike is not a track bike if has clinchers and a darn brake in it. Tubulars is the key word for tracking. I would not even dare to race with clinchers in the track, they are too spongy, absorb to much energy specially if you are going in the front of a sprint. Serious track racing is with tubulars.

As you might know cyclocross tubulars are wider and in that race in specific will shine big time, specially when u have to attack or change the pace making, tubular can do those things way better than a clincher. No idea if the rules allow you to use tubulars tho. Tubular wheels is the way to go tho.

The wheel i'm telling you can be found for cheap, or you can build them also. Formula hubs are everywhere, find good tubular rims is easy also, aero or not aero rim wont make any difference also at that level, the coach should know that. U can have the whole aero stuff and suck as a rider, but if you have equipment that doesn't fail specially the wheels u are all set and actually even win races if the rider is good.

If you need help building wheels let me know, i can do it for you, always glad to help trackers if they want to listen this old fart :P

[rice rocket]

have you ever wonder why serious CX riders here in the forums always use tubulars? Is not because are slower than clinchers...


I don't know what you're driving at, but the primary reason CX riders use tubulars is you can run them at low pressures to increase your contact patch size on dirt/muddy courses.

[ultraman6970]

Forgot that part :P


If you have the money to invest in a good set of wheels...

not mine but this is good stuff and the price is not bad after all. Maybe some forumite have a set of wheels moving around?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Dura-Ace-TRACK-wheels-TUBULAR-low-flange-32-Mavic-rims-/330547899594?pt=Cycling_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4cf630acca

[learlove]

Thanks in advance for drenching me with the collective wisdom of this forum.

My daughter rides for one of the Indiana University Little 500 teams. The race is Friday. (Men on Sat). A coach for a men's team (and former track racer and college coach) has built up some Velocity A23-based wheels for several teams and swears they're noticebly faster than whatever the generic wheels are on the bikes (I think Open Pro or similar). Talks about the decreased rolling resistence inherent in the rim's design. He wants to rent a couple of sets to the girls' team for this weekend. It's costly enough that the girls themselves can't afford them, but I might be willing to make the donation, if it's not hype or overkill.

My understanding is that they are a little faster on pavement. But the Little 5 is run on a 1/4 mile cinder track oval on relatively heavy Schwinn single speed bikes with platform pedals. The speeds are typically about 21-22 mph average for the better girls' teams. The cinder firmness varies daily as a function of weather conditions (tend to be more compacted and faster when damp), but isnt' as hard as concrete or asphault. Also the cinders are loose, so that there is at least some slippage as tires go over them. Seems to me that the 'give' in the surface might mitigate any advantage of the wheel design. I don't think anyone's actually done any head to head testing to verify any of this. Of course the teenage girls believe that this will give them a huge advantage, but other than psychologically, I'm skeptical. But then, I'm pretty ignorant about this stuff.

Any thoughts? Thanks again.

This guys arguement (about the rims) may be valid but I do not think it will make a diff. in a race like the Little 500 - given that the bikes are the same between teams, the level of competition and it is a flat track, ect.

If college racing is the way it was when I did collegiate (93 to 97) everyone just raced on crap anyway. We were college kids, nobody had any money. In fact I think my equipment in my junior days (high school) was better than my equipment in my collegiate days.

IMHO - let your kid race on the stock wheels and give her the $$ for beer money.

[2LeftCleats]

Thanks again. The idea about the beer money is probably the best.

I don't believe tubulars are allowed in the Little 5. There are some convoluted rules governing equipment. One of the coaches is a Zipp rep, yet there are none of those in the race. (Money is not a huge issue for some of the teams).

BTW, both races are supposed to be live on HDNet.

[woolly]

OK, I'll make my statement & ask my question differently. First, here's my understanding of the bikes, quoted from wikipedia:

"Little 500 bikes

Little 500 bikes are rather unusual. They are identical, single-speed (46x18), coaster brake racing bicycles with 700c wheels, 28mm tires and flat rubber pedals. The unusual specification originated with the famous AMF Roadmaster bicycles of the 1960s and 1970s, once the sole bicycle type used in the event. There are two different versions of the bike for men and women, with the only difference being frame size. Every year a new version of the specified bicycle type is purchased, with two given to each team. A deposit of $300 must be placed for both bikes. At the end of the season, teams are given the option to keep their race bikes or to return them back to IUSF in exchange for their deposit. Returned former race bikes are kept at the track and rented out to those teams that lack bicycles meeting Little 500 specifications."

And my question would be, "has this changed?" Otherwise, it seems to be a moot point discussing track hubs, etc etc.

[Dave B]

As a former Little 5 coach and mechanic, you have to use what they give you. This is the world's largest intramural event and the IUSF (Indiana University Student Foundation) and they want to make it as fari as possible.

There was a guy at the Bicycle doctor who would relace some different rims ontot he wheels provided. These are coaster brake wheels and a fixie/track wheel would not be allowed. getting expensive wheels would more then likely disqualify them.

The best thing they can do is perfect their transitions between riders and bikes. This is the singlest biggest "trick" they can work on.

Beyond that is motor. This is a serious event for most teams and they will spend loads preparing for it. The Little 5 bike they ride is crap and is supposed to be so the $300 covers the cost of two full bikes. The best advice I can give bike wise is make sure the girls have both bikes work properly and adjusted well. Have some one in their pits with a nice firm brush to brush off the tires (the cinders will fill in the treads).

Let the girls knwo there will be a huge wreck in the beginning. This is going to happen, not could happen. Make sure they stay up front from the get go. Pace themselves and look for good teams to work with.

Best of luck to them, but do not spend money on new wheels, they will not be allowed. Unless the rules have changed dramatically since I was involved.

Prez

[flydhest]

If I was going to try to salvage the argument for the rims--which I won't, since I don't buy it--it would go as follows. (Aside, I always find it helpful to see if there is anyway to redeem a line of argument before dismissing it, just to make sure I am not wrong when I ignore people.)

The original discussion was about the rim, not the hub or any other part of the wheel. It was about swapping to the wider A23 rims. What folk here have lauded about those rims is the better, smoother ride that comes from the more natural transition from the rim to the sidewall of the tire. So, if that assertion is true, then one would want to know about the application. For a real track, it may not matter, as the surface is smooth. For a cinder track, the deformation of the tire seems likely to be a significant contributor to rolling resistance. If (and this is a big if, that I do not feel qualified to have a real opinion on) the wider rim and thus the transition to the sidewall reduces the effect of the tire deformation, then the rim, in and of itself, since all else is being held constant, could lower rolling resistance.

The discussion here and in the tests that are done about wider tires suggest that this type of effect happens, that is that narrow, high-pressure tires roll less well on less-than-perfect surfaces. The argument to be made would have to be that the wider rim does the same thing. I'm just not the one who is going to make the argument.

I would add, though, that the criteria that were posted by wooly do not seem to be violated by swapping out the rim.

[Fixed]

best thing to do tune -up the bike , clean bikes feel faster pump the tires up and let the girls do their thing
cheers

[2LeftCleats]

There have been tweaks in the equipment since I've been an interested spectator. My son raced 2003-7 (Cutters) and this will be my freshman daughter's first race (Teter).

The frames are all the same--platform pedals, coaster brakes and the chain rings and cogs are all the same (though I think the women's gearing is slightly different than the men's)

Many of the coaches are former participants and well-acquainted with the rules.

I've seen handlebars changed, seats changed and wheels changed. Each team is limited, I believe, to 2 bikes during the race, to accommodate different sized riders. Sometimes built up shoes are used to allow the same bike to be used by different sized riders.

All of the better teams, including the 2 my kids have been involved with, train year round, following principals of periodization, with individualized training plans. Many race in the summers. They spend lots of time on transitions, dealing with variable track conditions, and are very well-prepared. They know the best strategy is to be at the front as quickly as possible to avoid slower/less adept riders and the increased likelihood of crashes in the pack. The track gets squirrelly in the corners when excessively wet or dry and can lead to scary bike behavior.

The strategy of using a strong rider to lap the field and then just stay out of trouble has been difficult in recent years with the increased number of fit and experienced riders of both sexes.

The rules have been to allow no one better than Cat 3 until several years ago, when an allowance was made for a rider to upgrade to a 2 for his final Little 500 race. This year one of the big controversies is that the strongest male rider, who is still technically Cat 2, placed well in the national track championships and collegiate championships last year and will sign with Bissell after the race.

Long winded way of saying that though the equipment is medieval by this forum's standards, these riders improve equipment where they can and are well-trained. I was skeptical, as it appears others have been, of the claims of significantly faster wheels.

Now, if only the weather this weekend isn't as cold, rainy and crappy as the forecast indicates.

[Ti Designs]

Lots of discussion about equipment, none about the rider - happens a lot on this forum...

I coach the Harvard cycling team, I ride with them, I'm on a heavy steel fixed gear with tractor tires all winter. If they can't up and drop the old guy on the fixed gear, they're not allowed to consider upgrading equipment. 'nuff said.

[Dave B]

If I remember correctly you have to use their tires, not ones you supply.

The goal is to have the bikes almost exactly the same and weighing the same.

I understand wider rims, but if I remember the tires are so crappy you aren't going to get much benefit.

I think you can switch the seatpost, saddle, and bar tape. Maybe even a bar, but no carbon.

Work on transitions and try to get girls with similar saddle height.

It has been a decade since I was involved so things might have changed, but I doubt much.

[Dave B]

There have been tweaks in the equipment since I've been an interested spectator. My son raced 2003-7 (Cutters) and this will be my freshman daughter's first race (Teter).

The frames are all the same--platform pedals, coaster brakes and the chain rings and cogs are all the same (though I think the women's gearing is slightly different than the men's)

Many of the coaches are former participants and well-acquainted with the rules.

I've seen handlebars changed, seats changed and wheels changed. Each team is limited, I believe, to 2 bikes during the race, to accommodate different sized riders. Sometimes built up shoes are used to allow the same bike to be used by different sized riders.

All of the better teams, including the 2 my kids have been involved with, train year round, following principals of periodization, with individualized training plans. Many race in the summers. They spend lots of time on transitions, dealing with variable track conditions, and are very well-prepared. They know the best strategy is to be at the front as quickly as possible to avoid slower/less adept riders and the increased likelihood of crashes in the pack. The track gets squirrelly in the corners when excessively wet or dry and can lead to scary bike behavior.

The strategy of using a strong rider to lap the field and then just stay out of trouble has been difficult in recent years with the increased number of fit and experienced riders of both sexes.

The rules have been to allow no one better than Cat 3 until several years ago, when an allowance was made for a rider to upgrade to a 2 for his final Little 500 race. This year one of the big controversies is that the strongest male rider, who is still technically Cat 2, placed well in the national track championships and collegiate championships last year and will sign with Bissell after the race.

Long winded way of saying that though the equipment is medieval by this forum's standards, these riders improve equipment where they can and are well-trained. I was skeptical, as it appears others have been, of the claims of significantly faster wheels.

Now, if only the weather this weekend isn't as cold, rainy and crappy as the forecast indicates.


I was a big fan of the cutters as I grew up in B-town, but worked for and with a fraternity and sorority.

There will be a wreck in the women's race a big one...but they will be ok. yes lapping the field is difficult, but can be done. I mentioned transitions between racers as that is how our team finished second. I Theta Chi would do two hot laps and then switch until they lapped the field...worked and since has been the "way" which is a bit lame. Tour de france mentality of making it boring early. The track will suck if it rains badly, but it also is fun to watch.

The race is turning into more and more of a small recruiting trip for teams. I remember the Cat 2 guy getting to race. he had won some serious track races and nationals, but took a year off to "lose" his points and down grade.

Cutters always did well and were coached to be champions. Best of luck to your daughter and her pals. Teter has had good teams in the past.

[flydhest]

Lots of discussion about equipment, none about the rider - happens a lot on this forum...

I coach the Harvard cycling team, I ride with them, I'm on a heavy steel fixed gear with tractor tires all winter. If they can't up and drop the old guy on the fixed gear, they're not allowed to consider upgrading equipment. 'nuff said.
But the question in this case was just about a specific piece of equipment.

[BrownBear]

I'll def agree with that. Little 500 comes down to ability and want. I wish my school had it but U of I has to settle for Unofficial

[Ti Designs]

But the question in this case was just about a specific piece of equipment.

The original question was what's best for the team. The discussion then turned to being about the equipment, as it so often does here. The original question was also about an event which was designed to eliminate equipment and team budgets from the race - use what they give you. It's a test of rider ability, it's not about the bike...

[rice rocket]

I have no idea what you're reading, but the original post (and title) was strictly about wheels.

This wouldn't be the first time you've tried to turn a thread into one about training though... :rolleyes:

[flydhest]

I have no idea what you're reading, but the original post (and title) was strictly about wheels.

This wouldn't be the first time you've tried to turn a thread into one about training though... :rolleyes:
:o

[2LeftCleats]

This site relates to Bloomington IN cycling. Lots of Little 500 stuff lately. If anyone's interested in the track and some racers, there's a video (Sigma Chi Cam) of their team pursuit. That's one of the 4 events leading up to the actual race. It's a 15 lap event. The helmet cam shows good views of the track. This team finished 2nd.


http://bloomingtonvelonews.blogspot.com/

[Dave B]

This site relates to Bloomington IN cycling. Lots of Little 500 stuff lately. If anyone's interested in the track and some racers, there's a video (Sigma Chi Cam) of their team pursuit. That's one of the 4 events leading up to the actual race. It's a 15 lap event. The helmet cam shows good views of the track. This team finished 2nd.


http://bloomingtonvelonews.blogspot.com/


That is my team. :beer:

[Ti Designs]

I have no idea what you're reading, but the original post (and title) was strictly about wheels.

Having read the original post a few more times, I still get the impression that it's a question of what's best for the team. Yeh, there's a lot of talk about wheels, but in a sport where it's 99% rider and 1% bike I really have to question why 99% of the discussions here are about the bike.

[2LeftCleats]

Not to make more of this than it deserves, and I do appreciate all the thoughtful comments, but it was meant really as a query about the wheels: i.e. do the purported benefits of this specific wheel really hold in this application, given the quirks of this track? Or as someone meantioned, would it be better to blow the $150 rental fee on beer afterwards?

[Dave B]

Not to make more of this than it deserves, and I do appreciate all the thoughtful comments, but it was meant really as a query about the wheels: i.e. do the purported benefits of this specific wheel really hold in this application, given the quirks of this track? Or as someone meantioned, would it be better to blow the $150 rental fee on beer afterwards?


Yes! You have to think of what is allowed not what is possible. There are loads of things that would make those bikes betetr, which is why they cost about $150/each.

Trust me I am speaking from experience. Do what is allowed to the bike, but wheel, stires, major stuff is what keeps the spirit of the race pure.

The girls need good motors, smooth transitions, and luck. Those cinders effing hurt, keep off of them. Have a race mechanic who can brush the cinders out of the tires, make sure the wheels stay inflated and wheels true.

Make sure the girls stay warm like on trainers and hydrated.

TiDesigns is right, the motor is the key. The equipment even what you are asking while valid is not the answer here.

The bike is crappy for a reason. $150 for wheels is a joke for this as they will not be allowed and if you do get by with them and the girls win they will be disqualified for using them.

Put it this way, if folks were allowed to use different equipment then you would see the most exotic crap on a $50 frame. IU makes these rules so anyone can win...not really, but that is the goal.

These bikes are as simple as they can be.

I know you want to help the girls, but get them a massage the day before the race, something to keep them loose and calm. get them a hotel room to stay in as campus will be crazy and a good breakfast the morning of the race.

[Ti Designs]

Not to make more of this than it deserves, and I do appreciate all the thoughtful comments, but it was meant really as a query about the wheels: i.e. do the purported benefits of this specific wheel really hold in this application, given the quirks of this track? Or as someone meantioned, would it be better to blow the $150 rental fee on beer afterwards?


As a strict question about the wheels, I don't think that anyone here is qualified to answer that. If you were in the mood to waste a lot of money instead of just a little, you could get some sort of power meter bike or build up both a "fast" wheel and regular wheel with a PowerTap hub, then do some testing to get a feel for lap times given an average power output.

For a northeast perspective on this:

The MIT team would do the testing, the Harvard team would buy the beer.

[Dave B]

Looks like wheels won't even be an issue. Teter looks strong.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2011/04/news/repeats-on-tap-for-little-500_168835


best of luck!

[2LeftCleats]

Didn't need the wheels. Teter lapped the field halfway through and made it look easy. (Now, just hope they aren't drug tested.)

[Dave B]

Watched a bit of it, nasty wreck in the first 9 laps as per usual. Teter looked so darn strong.

Congrats to your girl.

by the way found this...should have given it sooner.

http://www.iusf.indiana.edu/little500/rider_info/little500-bikes.html

Dave