NYPD cop almost doors cyclist, then arrests her

[fiamme red]

http://gothamist.com/2011/04/06/cop_nearly_doors_cyclist_then_chase.php

On Monday, cyclist message boards lit up with outrage over the story of a woman who was arrested after supposedly running a red light on her bicycle on Amsterdam Avenue. But it turns out the truth is actually more outrageous: Chistina Thede, the cyclist in question, tells us she didn't run a red light at all. Her crime? Criticizing a plainclothes cop who nearly doored her...

[martinrjensen]

Man I just don't know what to say about this one. I hope she sues the city for this. The guy was a jerk.http://gothamist.com/2011/04/06/cop_nearly_doors_cyclist_then_chase.php

On Monday, cyclist message boards lit up with outrage over the story of a woman who was arrested after supposedly running a red light on her bicycle on Amsterdam Avenue. But it turns out the truth is actually more outrageous: Chistina Thede, the cyclist in question, tells us she didn't run a red light at all. Her crime? Criticizing a plainclothes cop who nearly doored her...

[rugbysecondrow]

Interesting story. Hard to know what is true or false, but either way it seems unfortunate.

[tuxbailey]

It would be nice if the messenger who couldn't stop and hit her bike would come forward as witness.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . .about NYPD and cyclists, why would anyone be surprised by this?

BBD

[Kontact]

Maybe it's the same cop who was parking in the mandatory bike lane and then ticketing bikers that went around him.

[rugbysecondrow]

. . .about NYPD and cyclists, why would anyone be surprised by this?

BBD
One of the largest cities in the world with one of the largest police force, let's not take random acts and mistakenly attribute them to the whole force.

[Fixed]

One of the largest cities in the world with one of the largest police force, let's not take random acts and mistakenly attribute them to the whole force.
i bet a lot of them ride bikes and race pretty darn well and are bros .
cheers

[sparkiegaz]

he arrested her because he was concerned about his safety,,,,,,,yep she does look dangerous in that cycling helmet,,,,,,,so am i right in thinking all cops in us carry guns,,,,,,,,,,,,,maybe she had a bazooka in her pocket were not seeing........ :rolleyes:

[RPS]

he arrested her because he was concerned about his safety,,,,,,,yep she does look dangerous in that cycling helmet,,,,,,,so am i right in thinking all cops in us carry guns,,,,,,,,,,,,,maybe she had a bazooka in her pocket were not seeing........ :rolleyes:
My thoughts exactly -- she seems so threatening. :crap:

This is not about fear or safety, or what's right or legal, it's all about power.

[BobbyJones]

http://www.nycc.org/message-board/full-story-my-arrest-sunday/50804

[Fixed]

he was pissed i am sure his boss is too
cheers

[brians647]

The cop is an ass and was trying to save his ego.
But her version of the story seems to take all of 15-20 seconds, I'm trying to figure out how the marked cars responded to the scene in that short of a period of time.
Additionally, don't all cop cars have audio/video recording out the front?

[ultraman6970]

One of this day a cyclist will pull a gun out then the war will start.

Seriously, the whole cycling community should sue the city of new york for the problems caused, people can't work neither ride there anymore.

Read that in DC the issue is almost the same now, wonder what it will happen to the cops if the gvmt shuts down now. Maybe nothing. Remember driving in canada just the days the cops got a strike, priceless experience :D

[Lifelover]

She deserves what she got simply for calling herself a cyclist while riding a Murray!

[Louis]

My thoughts exactly -- she seems so threatening.

Yup, the typical mad-dog foaming-at-the-mouth renegade cyclist there...

[fogrider]

she's a commuter just trying to get around town. if she was a real cyclist, a cop car would not be able to catch her in that close to central park.

i was stopped at a red light in the left side of the right lane and a cop pulls up behind me. he was turning right and because I was over at the left side of the lane, he was able to make the right turn. as he was turning, he yelled to me that I should be over at the right side of the lane. I yelled back "if I was at the right side, how would you be able to make the right turn?" he stops and starts to tell me that cyclist need to be on the right side of the road. the light turned right and said "sure" and rode off. Clearly he did not hear what I was trying to tell him and he was right.

[rugbysecondrow]

One of this day a cyclist will pull a gun out then the war will start.

Seriously, the whole cycling community should sue the city of new york for the problems caused, people can't work neither ride there anymore.

Read that in DC the issue is almost the same now, wonder what it will happen to the cops if the gvmt shuts down now. Maybe nothing. Remember driving in canada just the days the cops got a strike, priceless experience :D

This is one of the dumbest statements I have read in a while. Let's be reasonable a here and curtail the heated rhetoric. We know very few facts, there are holes in both stories and some splaining that still has to be done.

As an aside, one of the worst things that could happen to cyclists and our PR would be to rage against the machine. That would squash what little public support we have as well as gve credence to all the incidents of violence that have taken place.

Lastly, cyclists are unreasonable when it comes to interpreting stories likes this. Of all the acts and interactions that cyclists have daily with motorists and police, we focus exclusively on the negative ones and attribute those few statements to the system as a whole. I had a incident where I was was yelled at in DC by a police officer while jogging, he was a complete dick and would drop whatever issue he had (I still don't know) but am I going to now say the capital police are anti jogging? That would be a very dumb statement for me to make.

[rugbysecondrow]

The cop is an ass and was trying to save his ego.
But her version of the story seems to take all of 15-20 seconds, I'm trying to figure out how the marked cars responded to the scene in that short of a period of time.
Additionally, don't all cop cars have audio/video recording out the front?

Seriously, it seems like it was bang, bang, bang. This is likely going to be one of those incidents where nobody is right. She might have said a little more to the guy than she let on. I also suspect he told her he was an officer. Something fishy. Also, when most people get into situations like this, the story starts out , "i was minding my own business when..." and the truth is rarely that cut and dry. This will likely be like the Dr. Gates story at Harvard, plenty of right and wrong on both sides.

[Johnson81]

The thing that I'm sick of is everyone saying that cops are always the bad guys. Myself being a cop and an active cyclist, I know that they most dangerous things out there to cyclists are not cops, but motorists (I’ve nearly been hit a few times). Don't forget that everyone is basing what they think off of one biased option (the cyclist) and one half-ass news story.

Also she's saying that she didn't hear him identify himself as a police officer...bull****. Having worked in plain clothes before, the first thing you do is identify yourself....period

Was the cop right...well thats for the judge to decide.

[flydhest]

Also she's saying that she didn't hear him identify himself as a police officer...bull****. Having worked in plain clothes before, the first thing you do is identify yourself....period



While I am sure that what you state is the rule, I suspect that there have been occasions in the course of human events when rules weren't followed precisely. I think the sentence ought to have been, "Having worked in plain clothes before, the first thing I do is identify myself . . . . period." I can't figure out how you know what this cop does or doesn't do.

[Louis]

I know that they most dangerous things out there to cyclists are not cops, but motorists

Perhaps, but if saying that they aren't the worst things out on the road is the best defense one can come up with for the police, then things are bad indeed.

[Aaron O]

I am not an anti-police radical, but I also think we give them too much leeway with open ended things like "causing a disturbance".

The police are in a tough spot, as are we who hire them. We want them to protect us and have enough authority to stop those preying on us, but we want them to respect our rights. We've given them almost unlimited authority in an on street situation and some are going to take advantage of that. My personal view is that we've gone too far in granting them power and the issue is less the individual police than it is where we've drawn the balancing lines.

[Lifelover]

The thing that I'm sick of is everyone saying that cops are always the bad guys. Myself being a cop and an active cyclist, I know that they most dangerous things out there to cyclists are not cops, but motorists (I’ve nearly been hit a few times). Don't forget that everyone is basing what they think off of one biased option (the cyclist) and one half-ass news story.

Also she's saying that she didn't hear him identify himself as a police officer...bull****. Having worked in plain clothes before, the first thing you do is identify yourself....period

Was the cop right...well thats for the judge to decide.

I support you (and your decisions) and thank you for doing what is a thankless job.

[christian]

One of the largest cities in the world with one of the largest police force, let's not take random acts and mistakenly attribute them to the whole force.

Rugby - I know from this thread and the one about Central Park that you will reflexively defend the officers, but let me share this nugget with you, that I think you'll find interesting:

I am a 35-year old white male, lived for 6 years on the Upper West Side, am financially reasonably well-off, have never been arrested nor had any adverse run-in with a police officer, and have not even received a speeding ticket since 2002. In fact, every law enforcement officer I've ever dealt with has been professional.

That said, given the overall organizational behavior of the NYPD toward cyclists beginning with the Critical Mass crackdown during the RNC and continuing to this day, I have absolutely zero faith in the ability of the NYPD to appropriately, effectively, and safely administer the laws and traffic regulations of New York City, in general, and especially as it relates to bicycles. Between the Critical Mass issues, the Pogue incident, the Central Park (and other places) ticketing, and this last instance, it is clear to me that there is an anti-cycling organizational culture that has infected the NYPD, and that, as a result, the NYPD has lost my faith that they can objectively administer these laws.

Based on that, today, I'd comply with NYPD orders, not because they have any moral authority to administer and enforce these laws, but solely because they carry a gun. I think that's an unfortunate situation for a police force.

[christian]

The thing that I'm sick of is everyone saying that cops are always the bad guys. Myself being a cop and an active cyclist, I know that they most dangerous things out there to cyclists are not cops, but motorists (I’ve nearly been hit a few times). Don't forget that everyone is basing what they think off of one biased option (the cyclist) and one half-ass news story.
Do you work in the NYPD? See my post above, but I am not making judgments based on one opinion, but a seven year NYPD history of unfairly targeting cyclists for harassment.

[Johnson81]

I support you (and your decisions) and thank you for doing what is a thankless job.


All you have to do is read some of the responding posts to mine to understand that it's a thankless job, lol.

And there should be more people like you...but there aren't.


Also it stated that there was an exchange of words...I wonder what was said and who said it. All's I'm saying is that is doesn't sound like the cyclist is as innocent as she makes her self out to be.

[Johnson81]

Do you work in the NYPD? See my post above, but I am not making judgments based on one opinion, but a seven year NYPD history of unfairly targeting cyclists for harassment.


Anyone who gets stopped by the cops thinks that they are being unfairly targeted or profiled....even though you have a valid reason to stop them and explain that to them.


The cops are just out to screw everyone over. (at least that's what everyone thinks)

[leooooo]

Too many thankless jobs out there, lol
I would thank my garbage man before a cop :D

[climbgdh]

Hearing all this makes me feel lucky to live where i live. I've had 2 or 3 instances in the last year where my respect for police officers has gone up several notches. I commute 40k round trip to work basically year round and two cases this past winter on rainy miserable nights I was cut off by a patrol car. Would have probably been my fault if I hadn't been lite up like a Christmas tree with high powered headlight & 3 blinkers on back. In both cases it was totally the officers fault & in both cases they actually stopped to apologize. First case he simply rolled down his window at the next light and said he was sorry for not noticing me. Second case the officer actually pulled over to the side, got out of his car and apologized. Total class IMO. One other recent instance where myself and one of my riding buddies were screaming thru traffic on our way back into city after a ride. Totally blew thru a red light ....... with a cop sitting right there. He stopped us & easily could have given us the $167 cycling traffic violation fine & had every right to do so because they've really had to crack down on violators here. Instead he happily took our names and let us off. I did have the suspicion that he might have been a serious rider as well with the way he was looking at our bikes...... so maybe that helped. :)

As many people have said they have a thankless job.

[Johnson81]

Too many thankless jobs out there, lol
I would thank my garbage man before a cop :D


So then call your garbage man when someone breaks into your house, vandalises your car/house/property, you get into a car accident, or when you need any other kind of help.


See how far you get with that.

[leooooo]

So then call your garbage man when someone breaks into your house, vandalises your car/house/property, you get into a car accident, or when you need any other kind of help.


See how far you get with that.

I called cops for that.
Didnt get me far either.

Edit:

Also, that argument is kind of pointless. That isn't exactly a garbage man's job description. All I know is that I can rely on the garbage man doing his job, I can't really rely on cops doing theirs.

Next time your car breaks down, don't call a mechanic, call a waiter!
See how far you get with that. :D

[dcpdpayne]

Rugby - I know from this thread and the one about Central Park that you will reflexively defend the officers, but let me share this nugget with you, that I think you'll find interesting:

I am a 35-year old white male, lived for 6 years on the Upper West Side, am financially reasonably well-off, have never been arrested nor had any adverse run-in with a police officer, and have not even received a speeding ticket since 2002. In fact, every law enforcement officer I've ever dealt with has been professional.

That said, given the overall organizational behavior of the NYPD toward cyclists beginning with the Critical Mass crackdown during the RNC and continuing to this day, I have absolutely zero faith in the ability of the NYPD to appropriately, effectively, and safely administer the laws and traffic regulations of New York City, in general, and especially as it relates to bicycles. Between the Critical Mass issues, the Pogue incident, the Central Park (and other places) ticketing, and this last instance, it is clear to me that there is an anti-cycling organizational culture that has infected the NYPD, and that, as a result, the NYPD has lost my faith that they can objectively administer these laws.

Based on that, today, I'd comply with NYPD orders, not because they have any moral authority to administer and enforce these laws, but solely because they carry a gun. I think that's an unfortunate situation for a police force.

I think that this is a reasonable statement in every way, but I might urge you to refine a bit of the blame. Having worked in law enforcement for the last 10 years now myself, I can tell you that I've run into amazing officers and officers that I'd rather not show up to a call with. Working, as I do, for a county department, and spend a lot of time assisting other agencies, from tiny towns to the alphabet soup of federal agencies, I can tell you that there are some agencies are the same way. Some seem to have it figured out and do the job professionally and some do things in a way that I don't agree with on moral, ethical, social, or a variety of other reasons.

I know that it's easy to blame the police (Full disclosure: there is a part of me that still loves NWA's “F*ck the Police”, I wasn't always a cop you know), but there are often bigger fish to fry than your local beat cop, be them a well trained officer that acts in a professional manner or even that a-hole cop that goes out of his/her way to act like a jerk.

It is important to remember that often the police take their orders from above too. City, county, and even federal law enforcement are often directed by governmental forces (ie, Mayors, town counsels, county boards, or “Directors” at the federal level) above their head.

In the case of the NYPD, who certainly seem to often act like a-holes to cyclist, what is the stance of the Mayor's office on cycling, cyclist, and all bicycle users in NYC? Has Mayor Bloomberg (I think he's still Mayor) made comment on any of the NYPD/Cyclist strife? His office controls the funding, leadership, and general direction of the department......So it would stand to reason that if the agency shows a bias against cyclist as a whole, Mayor Bloomberg deserves at least equal blame.

Don't like the NYPD's action towards cyclist? I don't blame you. But before tossing the baby out with the bath water it would be worth seeing what the Mayor has to say on the issue. Maybe it's time that the cycling community get more politically involved and find a Mayor that will actual support cyclist's rights.

As a side note to this statement I'll share a personal story. A few years ago I was finishing a training and was returning into the town where I live as it approached dusk (Cars hadn't even turned on their headlights yet.) I was wearing light colored kit and had reflective trim on a large part of my gear (helmet, jersey trim, etc.) As I neared my house a local (remember that I work for the county) law enforcement officer preformed a traffic stop on me and advised me that at the direction of the Mayor's office (the Mayor, who didn't think that bicycles belonged on the road anyway and who had nearly struck a cyclist when he was driving a few days earlier) had passed a city ordinance stating that any bicycle operating “at night” (though this appears to mean even at pre-dusk hours) had to have three “tail lights” and a flashing headlight or be subject to a local fine. The officer, who was very nice about the issue, told me that they had been directed to make traffic stops on cyclist for a month to “Warn” us about the new ordinance, but in a month would be forced to issue a ticket. He and I talked for a few minutes and we both agreed that the whole issue seemed a little over the top and heavy handed, but that he was just “doing his job” as directed by the guy that signs his checks....... Since then I know of at least 4 bike riders who had ended up in city court with a $100 fine....

Fair? Maybe not. But I can't say that it's all the officer's fault for following the rules set forth by local government.

[Pete Serotta]

One of this day a cyclist will pull a gun out then the war will start.

Seriously, the whole cycling community should sue the city of new york for the problems caused, people can't work neither ride there anymore.

Read that in DC the issue is almost the same now, wonder what it will happen to the cops if the gvmt shuts down now. Maybe nothing. Remember driving in canada just the days the cops got a strike, priceless experience :D

This would be a very tragic day for all of us....guns are never a solution in the USA but each person is open to their own views having guns.

And this is not because I am a gun hater, I did hunt in PA as a teenager, as well as with relatives in fields of Alabama. Additionally I was with the USMC in Vietnam. :beer: :beer: This is probably not a note to post and the thread will get closed probably BUT a cyclist carry of a gun is something I hope I never see. :crap: :crap:

[christian]

I think that this is a reasonable statement in every way, but I might urge you to refine a bit of the blame. [snip] His office controls the funding, leadership, and general direction of the department......So it would stand to reason that if the agency shows a bias against cyclist as a whole, Mayor Bloomberg deserves at least equal blame.Absolutely agreed. As it happens, I'm a Transportation Alternatives member, and have, when I lived in the City, written to or spoken with Councilwoman Gail Brewer, Manhattan Borough President Scott Stringer, and the Mayor about these concerns. And, as it happens, in 2009, I voted for Bill Thompson for Mayor. These days, I live in Westchester County, so direct electoral action isn't an option.

But my point was generally - I'm a member of society who could reasonably be presumed to have the best possible impression of the police force (and, in fact, I think my local village cops are the greatest!), but the post-2004 actions of the NYPD toward cyclists make me believe the cyclist in every case and suspect the cops of unfairly targeting cyclists. Losing the faith and trust of the populace is a terrible and unfortunate state of affairs for the NYPD.

BTW, thanks to you both (dcpdpayne and Johnson81) for the service you provide to your communities.

[rugbysecondrow]

All you have to do is read some of the responding posts to mine to understand that it's a thankless job, lol.

And there should be more people like you...but there aren't.


Also it stated that there was an exchange of words...I wonder what was said and who said it. All's I'm saying is that is doesn't sound like the cyclist is as innocent as she makes her self out to be.

This is one of the main points, if you curse at a cop, rough him up with words, act as a beligerant jerk, then you will likely be treated harshly for what might be a minor offense. If you acted that way towards a server, you would get kicked out or have tainted food to eat. If you acted that way towards your barber, you would have a crappy hair do. All people deserve respect, the police as an entity deserve respect. It doesn't mean you agree with them, it doesn't mean you have to always comply, but you should respect them. It also means there is a right way and a wrong way to address situations with them. This chick likely went about it the wrong way and she got dealt with. Cops don't just arrest people for no reason, especially off duty ones. Do you think that is how they want to spend their off day? She likely took a mistake (the open door) and made it personal. Well, it sure got personal didn't it? Also, who are these ladies who spout off to people like this? Guys don't act like this because they know an arse whooping my be forthcoming. Girls think they can just spout off sometimes. That is just a tangent though.

Too many thankless jobs out there, lol
I would thank my garbage man before a cop :D


Thank both, they deserve respect.

[dcpdpayne]

BTW, thanks to you both (dcpdpayne and Johnson81) for the service you provide to your communities.

No problem what so every. I'm the type of guy that if a local cyclist get the plate number of a car that cuts them off, or tells me which house isn't keeping their dogs confined, I pay them a visit. I try to politely advise the offender that cyclist have rights, and that I'll do my part to make sure that they're protected. This positive approach usually works well. I know from personal experience that homeowners, who dogs have provided an unexpected mid ride sprint, have leashed their dogs the next time I ride by.... and the world for cyclists gets a bit better.

[leooooo]

No problem what so every. I'm the type of guy that if a local cyclist get the plate number of a car that cuts them off, or tells me which house isn't keeping their dogs confined, I pay them a visit. I try to politely advise the offender that cyclist have rights, and that I'll do my part to make sure that they're protected. This positive approach usually works well. I know from personal experience that homeowners, who dogs have provided an unexpected mid ride sprint, have leashed their dogs the next time I ride by.... and the world for cyclists gets a bit better.

I'll thank actions like that. Positive attitude, above the call of duty...
I ain't randomly thanking anyone just because they chose a certain career.

Thanks, dcpdpayne :beer:

[William]

I can tell you that I've run into amazing officers and officers that I'd rather not show up to a call with....



FWIW,
I've worked with many LEO's over the years and the majority of them have been top shelf people. But just like dealing with people in general, there will always be a few pricks that skew perceptions.



William

[christian]

This chick likely went about it the wrong way and she got dealt with. Cops don't just arrest people for no reason, especially off duty ones. Do you think that is how they want to spend their off day? She likely took a mistake (the open door) and made it personal. Well, it sure got personal didn't it?
I expect people who are charged by the state with enforcing the law and armed for that purpose to have a heightened, not lowered, standard for when something can "get personal."

For comparison's sake, did the 1800 people who were arrested during the 2004 RNC and kept confined at Pier 57 for 24+ hours "go about it the wrong way"? The vast majority of those charges were eventually dropped, and the City paid a settlement to a significant number of the arrested (with my tax dollars, you'll recall.)

Just because someone is a cop doesn't mean they're right. And, unfortunately, the NYPD has lost the presumption of right when it comes to cyclists.

[rugbysecondrow]

[QUOTE=christian]Rugby - I know from this thread and the one about Central Park that you will reflexively defend the officers, but let me share this nugget with you, that I think you'll find interesting:

I am a 35-year old white male, lived for 6 years on the Upper West Side, am financially reasonably well-off, have never been arrested nor had any adverse run-in with a police officer, and have not even received a speeding ticket since 2002. In fact, every law enforcement officer I've ever dealt with has been professional.

QUOTE]

I am not defending reflexively but rather interpreting my experiences with LEOs differently. For instance, my experience has been similar to yours, nearly all LEO I have dealth with have been professional. I apply that to the force as a whole that they are a collection of professionals. Sure, some individuals might act like dicks, but I choose not to make that a generalization. I am not certian why people choose to forget all positive or neutral interactions they have had and instead focus on a few bad experiences (some of which might have been false stories). I am not saying the police are perfect, but I think they deserve more credit for what they do and how they act than the disrespect that seems to eminate from conversations like this.

[rugbysecondrow]

I expect people who are charged by the state with enforcing the law and armed for that purpose to have a heightened, not lowered, standard for when something can "get personal."

For comparison's sake, did the 1800 people who were arrested during the 2004 RNC and kept confined at Pier 57 for 24+ hours "go about it the wrong way"? The vast majority of those charges were eventually dropped, and the City paid a settlement to a significant number of the arrested (with my tax dollars, you'll recall.)

Just because someone is a cop doesn't mean they're right. And, unfortunately, the NYPD has lost the presumption of right when it comes to cyclists.

Be smart about this and know that if you start cursing, belittling and yelling at the police, you will be wrong and likely arrested or ticketed. It doesn't matter if you were minding your business on a bike, car or sidewalk, you will be dealt with. That doesn't mean physically, but there are consequences. I think the police do have a heightend standard. If some dude started yelling and cursing at me, it would likely result in an altercation and some bodiliy injury. The cop will likely just arrest you. See how that works.

I can't speak to the convention protestors, except to say it is likley a policy decision rather than a police decision. These things come from pretty high up, not from the patrol car level.

Also, to clarify, I don't know the facts of this case, but niether do any of us. The cop is likely being less than truthful as is the cyclists. Like I wrote before, enough mistakes to go around I presume.

[fiamme red]

The cop is likely being less than truthful as is the cyclists.What are you talking about? The cop, and the NYPD, haven't even commented on this story.

I see no reason to distrust the cyclist's story here. There are some cops who let their power go to their heads, and they become bullies.

[leooooo]

A question to the forum, is cursing, belittling and yelling at anyone acutally a crime?
Just curious.

I remember volunteering at the ER back in high school. If cursing, belittling and yelling at any human is a crime, they should set up a police station inside the ER of Elmhurst Hospital!

[Aaron O]

Let's be sensible here...

Do I think you should be able to criticize the police without being arrested? Yes, I think you should be able to question an officer at ANY time.

Do I think cursing at an officer should be permissible? Yes...I do, for the same reason I think flag burning should be legal. I'd rather give an idiot the right to be an idiot than potentially limit my own free speech.

Are you a moron if you criticize a police offer during a confrontation or curse at him/her? Yes...you probably are.

The police have almost unlimited power in an on street situation. The odds are 10-1 a judge is going to back them in court (at least in my area) unless there is real evidence of gross behavior or a pattern of gross behavior. If there is a situation, keep your mouth shut. Say yes officer. Settle the issue later...first by going to his/her supervisor, than a civilian regulatory agency, and finally with a lawyer.

Keep in mind that the officer spends the majority of his time dealing with the dregs of society...and probably isn't in the mood for a whole lot of grief. He/she is doing a difficult job we probably would be totally unwilling to do. Many of them feel like un-appreciated victims (and in some ways they are). Treat them with respect and understand they are doing a dangerous, difficult job.

If you challenge a police officer on the street, you're going to lose. You can argue the woulda shoulda coulda until the cows come home, but the truth is that if you challenge an officer on the street, you'll lose. I'd also wager that the VAST majority of the time, police are right in on street confrontations.

[rugbysecondrow]

What are you talking about? The cop, and the NYPD, haven't even commented on this story.

I see no reason to distrust the cyclist's story here. There are some cops who let their power go to their heads, and they become bullies.

What I think is that there was a rapid deteriation of civility where the cyclists slung curses, the cop argued back, the lady offered more words of encouragement and the officer decided to exert his authority. There was likely a ratcheting where both people are incorrect and both will retreat into more convenient tales of what happened.

You can be right in a wrong way.

[rugbysecondrow]

Let's be sensible here...

Do I think you should be able to criticize the police without being arrested? Yes, I think you should be able to question an officer at ANY time.

Do I think cursing at an officer should be permissible? Yes...I do, for the same reason I think flag burning should be legal. I'd rather give an idiot the right to be an idiot than potentially limit my own free speech.

Are you a moron if you criticize a police offer during a confrontation or curse at him/her? Yes...you probably are.

The police have almost unlimited power in an on street situation. The odds are 10-1 a judge is going to back them in court (at least in my area) unless there is real evidence of gross behavior or a pattern of gross behavior. If there is a situation, keep your mouth shut. Say yes officer. Settle the issue later...first by going to his/her supervisor, than a civilian regulatory agency, and finally with a lawyer.

Keep in mind that the officer spends the majority of his time dealing with the dregs of society...and probably isn't in the mood for a whole lot of grief. He/she is doing a difficult job we probably would be totally unwilling to do. Many of them feel like un-appreciated victims (and in some ways they are). Treat them with respect and understand they are doing a dangerous, difficult job.

If you challenge a police officer on the street, you're going to lose. You can argue the woulda shoulda coulda until the cows come home, but the truth is that if you challenge an officer on the street, you'll lose. I'd also wager that the VAST majority of the time, police are right in on street confrontations.


Yes, and said better than I did.

[EDS]

I bet the cop in this instance is a d-bag. Was probably on a donut run as he was outside his precinct's jurisdiction - yet had the young woman deposited at his precinct.

That being said, a number of the cops that have been giving tickets to cyclists in the recent ticketing blitz have been apologetic and professional, making it clear that they are acting based on instructions from higher ups. In some cases, mostly the speed trap incident, their higher ups have asked them to do stupid things, wasting important police resources (NYPD manpower is at its lowest levels in over a decade) and limited city financial resources, so they should be questioning what is going on upstairs.

Clearly there is a political component to the current NYPD actions relating to cyclists. Most cyclists are directing their anger at these political actors and the criticism of the NYPD is focused on this element, rather than the specific officers. Some progress has been made to rationalize the enforcement in CP already.

As an aside, I would imagine getting assigned to the Central Park precinct is a pretty cushy gig as far as the NYPD goes.

[gdw]

"Do I think cursing at an officer should be permissible? Yes...I do, for the same reason I think flag burning should be legal. I'd rather give an idiot the right to be an idiot than potentially limit my own free speech. "

When I was a police officer it was considered disorderly conduct and the DA would back me 100% if I arrested you.
http://www.mainelegislature.org/legis/statutes/17-a/title17-Asec501-A.html


"In a public or private place, the person knowingly accosts, insults, taunts or challenges any person with offensive, derisive or annoying words, or by gestures or other physical conduct, that would in fact have a direct tendency to cause a violent response by an ordinary person in the situation of the person so accosted, insulted, taunted or challenged"

We would warn the abusive party at least twice and then arrest them if they continued their tirade. Most normal people calmed down quickly when treated maturely. We had no state statute or local policy when it came to dealing with whiney urban roadies and treated them like everyone else.

[Aaron O]

"Do I think cursing at an officer should be permissible? Yes...I do, for the same reason I think flag burning should be legal. I'd rather give an idiot the right to be an idiot than potentially limit my own free speech. "

When I was a police officer it was considered disorderly conduct and the DA would back me 100% if I arrested you.
http://www.mainelegislature.org/legis/statutes/17-a/title17-Asec501-A.html


"In a public or private place, the person knowingly accosts, insults, taunts or challenges any person with offensive, derisive or annoying words, or by gestures or other physical conduct, that would in fact have a direct tendency to cause a violent response by an ordinary person in the situation of the person so accosted, insulted, taunted or challenged"

We would warn the abusive party at least twice and then arrest them if they continued their tirade. Most normal people calmed down quickly when treated maturely. We had no state statute or local policy when it came to dealing with whiney urban roadies and treated them like everyone else.

I have absolutely no doubt that is what happened and I disagree with it. I know these laws exist in most areas, and I think it is a mistake. I understand that it's a difficult issue and a balancing act, but I believe we've given police (at least in the areas I've lived) too much power and discretion with laws like these. I also know others draw that line differently and I definitely trend somewhat towards the civil liberties side of that equation. I'm not saying I'm right, I'm saying it's a tough area and that's where I come down.

Understand...I think someone cursing at an officer is a moron and I am not defending that behavior. I am also unlikely to be sympathetic to that person (as I would be unlikely to be sympathetic to a flag burner).

[fiamme red]

UnderstandI think someone cursing at an officer is a moron and I am not defending that behavior. I am also unlikely to be sympathetic to that person (as I would be unlikely to be sympathetic to a flag burner).But the woman in this case, even if she did curse at the officer (which we don't know), wasn't aware that he was an officer, because he was in plain clothes, in an unmarked car.

[Aaron O]

I meant my comments more generally and less specific to this incident. Truthfully I don't know what happened in this incident. We know there's a difference in the party's descritptions of the incidents. My tendency would be to side with the officer, barring a pattern of behavior.

As a general thing, I think most areas I've lived in have given the police too much discretion and some officers will abuse it. To me the issue is less about what happened here, or a specific officer, as it is about the laws and customs that make the abuse possible.

[RPS]

Also she's saying that she didn't hear him identify himself as a police officer...bull****. Having worked in plain clothes before, the first thing you do is identify yourself....period
Honestly? For real? Maybe except in areas where it's not required for a raid, they break into an innocent man's house by mistake and shoot him a dozen times, including a bunch through the back when he is already faced down on the floor.

Having rules always makes me feel safe.

[rugbysecondrow]

Honestly? For real? Maybe except in areas where it's not required for a raid, they break into an innocent man's house by mistake and shoot him a dozen times, including a bunch through the back when he is already faced down on the floor.

Having rules always makes me feel safe.


How is this relevant?

[RPS]

This is one of the main points, if you curse at a cop, rough him up with words, act as a beligerant jerk, then you will likely be treated harshly for what might be a minor offense. If you acted that way towards a server, you would get kicked out or have tainted food to eat. If you acted that way towards your barber, you would have a crappy hair do. All people deserve respect, the police as an entity deserve respect. It doesn't mean you agree with them, it doesn't mean you have to always comply, but you should respect them. It also means there is a right way and a wrong way to address situations with them. This chick likely went about it the wrong way and she got dealt with. Cops don't just arrest people for no reason, especially off duty ones. Do you think that is how they want to spend their off day? She likely took a mistake (the open door) and made it personal. Well, it sure got personal didn't it?
I think there is a major fallacy with your logic. When it comes to any disagreement you can never be right in the eyes of practically any officer – period. It doesn’t matter whether you respect them or not initially, when they trump your rights with their authority you either have to take it or escalate to a confrontation which you will certainly lose. Those are the only two real-world options – take it or get arrested (or shot). There is no debating anything whatsoever with cops. If you are right and accused of wrongdoing your best option is to take it to court; and even then it’s his word against yours so you’ll likely lose anyway.

I have always been respectful to officers, and while receiving traffic violations I had coming was respectful and they treated me in kind. No problem whatsoever.

HOWEVER, on the few occasions when I had to deal with officers on non-traffic situations, I learned very quickly cops can’t tolerate being questioned in any way whatsoever. They will go ballistic in a heart beat and threaten you with everything under their power – which includes and is not limited to killing you.

Some officers probably can control their emotions pretty well, but many can’t. And when they carry guns and we don’t all it takes is one jerk out of control.


P.S. – Your language suggests to me that you approve of her being “dealt with”. I find it sad we live in such a world now.

[RPS]

How is this relevant?
You are seriously going to ask me this?

[gdw]

Threads like this one are so predictable. Cyclists good, cops bad. None of us were there and no one knows the facts but it's the internet....

Worthless Trivia: I read a study in a law enforcement journal a couple years ago concerning police use of bicycles for patroling urban areas and the author found that every department he questioned had a waiting list of officers who had volunteered for bike patrol. Imagine that, some cops actually like bikes.

[yngpunk]

other than upping my post count, but this is beginning to sound like Congress these days...you're the one causing the government shutdown, no you're the one causing the government shutdown...

Going to be in the 80's here this weekend...the warmest since October in these parts...better things to do than argue about who's opinion is correct when it comes to cops...or Lance or carbon fiber for that matter.

:beer:

[Louis]

In my experience some police officers expect me to respect them simply because they are police officers. Sorry, that doesn’t work for me.

I will respect them if they treat me in a manner which deserves respect in return. I would think they would expect the same from me, but the feeling I get (based on several situations I have been in personally) is that they treat individuals as criminals, whether they are or not, whether there is any evidence that they are or not.

I’m sorry, but if you treat me like a bum for no reason don’t expect me to treat you like someone I should respect.

[rugbysecondrow]

I think there is a major fallacy with your logic. When it comes to any disagreement you can never be right in the eyes of practically any officer – period. It doesn’t matter whether you respect them or not initially, when they trump your rights with their authority you either have to take it or escalate to a confrontation which you will certainly lose. Those are the only two real-world options – take it or get arrested (or shot). There is no debating anything whatsoever with cops. If you are right and accused of wrongdoing your best option is to take it to court; and even then it’s his word against yours so you’ll likely lose anyway.

I have always been respectful to officers, and while receiving traffic violations I had coming was respectful and they treated me in kind. No problem whatsoever.

HOWEVER, on the few occasions when I had to deal with officers on non-traffic situations, I learned very quickly cops can’t tolerate being questioned in any way whatsoever. They will go ballistic in a heart beat and threaten you with everything under their power – which includes and is not limited to killing you.

Some officers probably can control their emotions pretty well, but many can’t. And when they carry guns and we don’t all it takes is one jerk out of control.


P.S. – Your language suggests to me that you approve of her being “dealt with”. I find it sad we live in such a world now.

I am not trying to say it is logical, I am just saying that is how it is. LEOs deal with criminals and people who want to do physical harm to them regularly. That is not an excuse for them to be disrespectful, but I also don't expect much leeway in the amount of bull???? and verbal abuse they should have to deal with from people who feel they are superior than the police.

Do I think she deserved it? likely not. My opinion is that is thought she could mouth off with zero repercussions. As everyone has acknowledged, that is not a very smart thing to do. Dr. King didn't mouth off, that is a great example.


You are seriously going to ask me this?


Of course I asked you. If you say something which is not only irrelevant to this instance but purposefully misleading, it deserves to be called out. For a smart guy, you can do much better as you have set higher standards for yourself.

[RPS]

Of course I asked you. If you say something which is not only irrelevant to this instance but purposefully misleading, it deserves to be called out. For a smart guy, you can do much better as you have set higher standards for yourself.
OK, since it wasn’t clear.

1) He suggested we already have rules in place.
2) That cops always follow the rules.
3) That they don’t make mistakes.

I can keep going, but the “real-life” example I gave shows that rules are made to be broken, are not always followed, and that officers do make mistakes – in the case I cited in Houston it cost an innocent and unarmed man in his own home his life.

While I respect officers in general, I won’t debate bull$h1t assumptions based on officers being infallible, always exercising good judgment, etc…. That’s a non-starter for me. If he wants to assert that the cop is right and the cyclist is wrong solely based on him being an officer I won’t waste my time.

For what it’s worth, I feel the problem is not the officers themselves because the vast majority of them are honest and hard working individuals who do what they can to protect us. The real and underlying problem in my opinion is that cops are given the power of god, a badge, and a gun and sent out to “control” society in order to protect us. However, there isn’t adequate accountability when they do wrong. They will protect each other and stick together if needed before they turn on a bad cop to eliminate the problem officer. I know there are all kinds of “safeguards” in place, but they are all ineffective as far as I’m concerned. Bad cops can get away with things with minor consequences that would send the average American to jail.

IMO the system is broken. It’s not about the vast majority of officers; it’s the way they are managed.

[rugbysecondrow]

While I respect officers in general, I won’t debate bull$h1t assumptions based on officers being infallible, always exercising good judgment, etc…. That’s a non-starter for me. If he wants to assert that the cop is right and the cyclist is wrong solely based on him being an officer I won’t waste my time.

.

I am not certain if anybody is forwarding the idea that officers are infallible. I agree that one should not take the police side just because he is an officer, but I find it to be intellectually lacking to automatically take the cyclist position because she is a cyclist.

[DHallerman]

CUT, because someone above made same point that the woman didn't know the person who opened the car door was a cop.

[drewski]

2 cents worth...

Welcome to New York

1. I don't doubt that her version of the events iare true.
The relationship between the NYPD and cyclists has been a tense one
for a long time. I think its part of the environment of NYC.

Because of the rapid pace of the city people are already pretty
full of adrenaline. I


I have seen instances where the police agressively went
after cyclists for not having lights on the bike, reflectors
because said cyclists were involved in civil disobediance rides.
They used punitative meausures such as attempting to confiscate
bicycles, writing traffic summons out, arrest, etc.




2. Having said this riding in New York requires extra
measures to be more vigilant, more visible, more conspicous.
It is more like riding in Honk Kong that in the USA.



The biking community will have to start getting agressive
like in the days when Charlie Komanoff performed
the demonstration rides on 5th avenue back in the 80's.
I don't live in NYC anymore but I see that things are really
started to come to a boil.


Hopefully cooler heads will prevail!!!

[Lifelover]

I am not certain if anybody is forwarding the idea that officers are infallible. I agree that one should not take the police side just because he is an officer, but I find it to be intellectually lacking to automatically take the cyclist position because she is a cyclist.

+1

These Cyclist against the world threads never cease to amaze me.

Maybe swoop was right and we all do think we are just victims :crap:

[fiamme red]

+1

These Bike Rider against the world threads never cease to amaze me.

Maybe swoop was right and we all do think we are just victims :crap:Swoop, huh? Fixed for you. :p

[Mr. Squirrel]

+1

These Cyclist against the squirrels threads never cease to amaze me.

Maybe swoop was right and we all do think we are just victims :crap:


dear lover, tell me about it.

mr. squirrel

[Louis]

These Cyclist against the world threads never cease to amaze me.

Oh quit whining. ;)

[54ny77]

While not applicable to the woman's situation (and it's a messed up situation, no doubt), there are 2 things I learned while living & riding in NYC:

1) Respect the cop--he carries a gun and a radio. The radio is often much more powerful.
2) See #1.

4 out of 5 dental hygienists suggest arguing with a NYC cop (or any cop for that matter) is even more futile than arguing on an internet forum. :banana: :p

[Grant McLean]

4 out of 5 dental hygienists suggest arguing with a NYC cop (or any cop for that matter) is even more futile than arguing on an internet forum. :banana: :p

Maybe you are arguing with cops here right now,
but they just haven't identified themselves!

Seems to me that young woman's actions are
consistent with her statement that she didn't know
the the guy was a plain clothes cop. Put yourself
in her situation (and add the fact that she is a she)
and this driver who nearly doored you is now chasing you
in their car. I think the last thing on my mind would be
to wonder if they were a cop. I'd be looking for a cop
to report this incident too. I believe that if the officer
did identify himself, she didn't hear him, likely because
she wasnt having anything to do with the guy, and
wanted to get away.

In the short space of time, it would be very surprising
to me if she fabricated the idea that she didn't understand
he was a cop. Her actions support her story. If true,
the careless actions of the officer ( illegally parked, opened
door into traffic) should have something to say about
why this happened, and whether or not the young woman
was acting reasonably. Not that it will, but it should.

[RPS]

Maybe swoop was right and we all do think we are just victims :crap:
Maybe you have it backwards. Is it possible officers first see themselves as our potential victims and thus treat us like criminals until we are proven innocent? They justify it by saying it's for their safety but it doesn't change the facts, right?

It seems to me that the dynamics between police and typical law-abiding citizens have slowly shifted over the last 40 to 50 years. A long time ago average citizens (at least where I grew up) had little interaction with police other than traffic tickets; so our dealings with police were generally cordial. Police mostly dealt with crimes that had already occurred, so law-abiding citizens were not affected to the same degree they are today. Mutual respect was easy.

Today, it seems to me that police is overwhelmed with crime and often outgunned, so their approach is more proactive and hence preemptive. Like many here have expressed, law-abiding citizens often feel they are being treated like criminals until they can prove their innocence. And that approach can’t have a happy ending when it involves honest people or their loved ones. I know that when an officer “randomly” pulled my daughter over to check her car for drugs right in front of my wife and me it made us both angrier than I can express on this forum. That’s “authority” crossing a line that can’t be taken back or undone.

Police’s adversarial approach to law enforcement is creating resentment that won’t easily go away. If they keep it up we will become more enemies than victims.

[RPS]

In the short space of time, it would be very surprising
to me if she fabricated the idea that she didn't understand
he was a cop. Her actions support her story. If true,
the careless actions of the officer ( illegally parked, opened
door into traffic) should have something to say about
why this happened, and whether or not the young woman
was acting reasonably. Not that it will, but it should.
Well said Grant.

I’ve also been wondering if any officer should be allowed to investigate or enforce an accident that involved him. Doesn’t this seem a conflict of interest?

He allegedly opened a car door in front of a cyclist causing a bike collision. If this involved autos instead of bikes colliding, would he be allowed to find himself innocent and charge the other driver? Something doesn’t seem right with this policy. He “allegedly” created the problem and then essentially prosecuted the other involved party. :confused:

[DHallerman]

Today, it seems to me that police is overwhelmed with crime...

Actual data from reliable sources shows that is not true.

Relative to even just 10 ago, crime rates are substantially down in almost all major US cities.

Let's look at often the worst type of crime, violent crime, and the FBI's own stats from the annual Uniform Crime Reporting Program: (http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/offenses/violent_crime/index.html)

"When considering 5- and 10-year trends, the 2009 estimated violent crime total was 5.2 percent below the 2005 level and 7.5 percent below the 2000 level."

Dave, who says that idea that the police are more overwhelmed than ever kind of sounds like complaints about being taxed more than ever with actual tax rates being much lower than 10 or 20 or 30 years ago

[BobbyJones]

Something doesn’t seem right with this policy. He “allegedly” created the problem and then essentially prosecuted the other involved party. :confused:

Unpossible! :)

[Aaron O]

Actual data from reliable sources shows that is not true.

Relative to even just 10 ago, crime rates are substantially down in almost all major US cities.
Let's look at often the worst type of crime, violent crime, and the FBI's own stats from the annual Uniform Crime Reporting Program: (http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/offenses/violent_crime/index.html)

"When considering 5- and 10-year trends, the 2009 estimated violent crime total was 5.2 percent below the 2005 level and 7.5 percent below the 2000 level."

Dave, who says that idea that the police are more overwhelmed than ever kind of sounds like complaints about being taxed more than ever with actual tax rates being much lower than 10 or 20 or 30 years ago

Just out of curiosity, does that include things like identity theft and credit card fraud? I'd think computer crime is exploding.

I know that you're absolutely right about violent crime rates dropping.

[rugbysecondrow]

I know that when an officer “randomly” pulled my daughter over to check her car for drugs right in front of my wife and me it made us both angrier than I can express on this forum. That’s “authority” crossing a line that can’t be taken back or undone.



I understand your anger. When I was 17, my girlfriend and I were on our way home from a date when a car rear ended us while we were at a stoplight and he was going about 35 mph. We were a little sore, but OK. When the police showed up, they viewed me as a criminal, searched the car, myself and my girlfriend for drugs etc and put us in the back of the police car. I was pretty pissed off, I said so to them, but I also knew not to act foolish, beligerant or like a dick. It also seemed like a poor practice to treat accident victims like this, that is also the way the internal affairs group saw it and prompted disciplinary action against the officers.

Again, wrongs are going to occur, do we want to manage them and address them appropriatly. I can't control everything, but I can control myself normally. How I control myself, or not, will impact how others, specifically a LEO, will act towards me.

The facts of this instance are fuzzy, but people need to take ownership of their own actions. Just because we are wronged on a bike does not give us the right to hurl curses, insults or anything else to those who we think wronged us, LEO or just a regular citizen.

[rugbysecondrow]

Actual data from reliable sources shows that is not true.

Relative to even just 10 ago, crime rates are substantially down in almost all major US cities.

Let's look at often the worst type of crime, violent crime, and the FBI's own stats from the annual Uniform Crime Reporting Program: (http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/offenses/violent_crime/index.html)

"When considering 5- and 10-year trends, the 2009 estimated violent crime total was 5.2 percent below the 2005 level and 7.5 percent below the 2000 level."

Dave, who says that idea that the police are more overwhelmed than ever kind of sounds like complaints about being taxed more than ever with actual tax rates being much lower than 10 or 20 or 30 years ago



The causualty rates in Iraq have decreased since 2003 as well, I suppose that means the soldiers can be less vigilant, right?


This is pretty easy to say from the cheap seats though.

[RPS]

Actual data from reliable sources shows that is not true.

Relative to even just 10 ago, crime rates are substantially down in almost all major US cities.

Thanks, that's good to know.

I was thinking more in terms of drugs, organized gangs, illegals, anti terrorism efforts, etc... I “assume” policing these types of crimes take a lot of resources. Just feels that way to me, although I have no data on which to base it.

[DHallerman]

The causualty rates in Iraq have decreased since 2003 as well, I suppose that means the soldiers can be less vigilant, right?

This is pretty easy to say from the cheap seats though.

It would be more helpful for this thread to look at what was actually being written.

My response, to quote actual data from the FBI, was to RPS's statement that crime today is more overwhelming to cops than it was in the past.

And if there's substantially less crime -- as the FBI's data has clearly shown -- then why would cops be more overwhelmed today than when crime was greater?

But really, why would a cop be upset that he opened his car door in the path of a cyclist, and then that cyclist yelled at him? Probably for the same reason that many people get defensive when it's pointed out to them that they are in the wrong.

Dave, who says the cop in this Amsterdam Avenue situation could have behaved more in a more civil manner and who here on this thread would say that being more civil is unwise for even the police force

[RPS]

How I control myself, or not, will impact how others, specifically a LEO, will act towards me.

Rugby, I keep missing your point as it applies to the real world. What can a law abiding driver going down I-10 do differently to keep a LEO from pulling them over just because he can? I get that your solution is to smile and act nice, and that if you are innocent they will let you go. Well, sorry, for me that’s unacceptable.

Having once experienced a police state and fearing that we are slowly moving in that direction by allowing LEOs to have more authority and less accountability we just need to agree to disagree. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not anti-police at all; I’m against the broken system we have created in the name of protecting ourselves. The cost of safety is too high in my humble opinion.

[DHallerman]

Thanks, that's good to know.

I was thinking more in terms of drugs, organized gangs, illegals, anti terrorism efforts, etc... I “assume” policing these types of crimes take a lot of resources. Just feels that way to me, although I have no data on which to base it.

Well the FBI data is divided into basically three categories, it seems:


Violent crime
Property crime
Hate crime


And the bit of data I quoted was for violent crime. I would think most of the types of crime you mention would fall under that category.

[54ny77]

Yep bad situation all around. You're right she probably did not hear him, if he identified himself at all. I've been chased before (not by cops) and adrenaline makes you do interesting things. I believe her story. Unfortunately it'll probably get squashed and nothing happens to cop...unless witnesses found and cyclist has plenty of time and money to pursue recourse.

Maybe you are arguing with cops here right now,
but they just haven't identified themselves!

Seems to me that young woman's actions are
consistent with her statement that she didn't know
the the guy was a plain clothes cop. Put yourself
in her situation (and add the fact that she is a she)
and this driver who nearly doored you is now chasing you
in their car. I think the last thing on my mind would be
to wonder if they were a cop. I'd be looking for a cop
to report this incident too. I believe that if the officer
did identify himself, she didn't hear him, likely because
she wasnt having anything to do with the guy, and
wanted to get away.

In the short space of time, it would be very surprising
to me if she fabricated the idea that she didn't understand
he was a cop. Her actions support her story. If true,
the careless actions of the officer ( illegally parked, opened
door into traffic) should have something to say about
why this happened, and whether or not the young woman
was acting reasonably. Not that it will, but it should.

[rugbysecondrow]

Rugby, I keep missing your point as it applies to the real world. What can a law abiding driver going down I-10 do differently to keep a LEO from pulling them over just because he can? I get that your solution is to smile and act nice, and that if you are innocent they will let you go. Well, sorry, for me that’s unacceptable.
Having once experienced a police state and fearing that we are slowly moving in that direction by allowing LEOs to have more authority and less accountability we just need to agree to disagree. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not anti-police at all; I’m against the broken system we have created in the name of protecting ourselves. The cost of safety is too high in my humble opinion.

You restated my point in bold above except replace nice and smile with being respectful. You might not like it, but the police do deserve and command a certain level of respect. You are also correct that there are officers who abuse this, but that does not change what they are deserved. There are appropriate ways to address problems with the police, those ways are likely different than how I would address an issue with another citizen. This is not complicated to me as different situations require different actions and solutions. This is not different to me.


It would be more helpful for this thread to look at what was actually being written.

My response, to quote actual data from the FBI, was to RPS's statement that crime today is more overwhelming to cops than it was in the past.

And if there's substantially less crime -- as the FBI's data has clearly shown -- then why would cops be more overwhelmed today than when crime was greater?
But really, why would a cop be upset that he opened his car door in the path of a cyclist, and then that cyclist yelled at him? Probably for the same reason that many people get defensive when it's pointed out to them that they are in the wrong.
Dave, who says the cop in this Amsterdam Avenue situation could have behaved more in a more civil manner and who here on this thread would say that being more civil is unwise for even the police force

I read what you wrote, and I was reading it in the context of the discussion and not as an isolated response to RPS as you might have intended.


To answer your question about being overwhelmed, you look at one number, crime reduction stats. You ignore, or at least, don't address kany variables, most notable number of officers. If those have decreased as well, which I think they have in NYC and other major cities, and the remaining officers are tasked with more overtime, then they will feel overwhelmed. The stat you provided is not really meaningful.

To answer your question, people don't like being yelled at, they act accordingly when yelled. How often do you yell at people in your daily life? I rarely do for one reason, it escalates a situation rapidly. If I yell at somebody, I also better be ready to fight that person or expect some severe negative reaction. Period. It is unreasonable for me to expect another person to deal with my wrath and just take it. This is true whether I am on a bike, jogging, at a restaurant, bar or shopping mall. It is not acceptable.

[DHallerman]

If I yell at somebody, I also better be ready to fight that person or expect some severe negative reaction. Period. It is unreasonable for me to expect another person to deal with my wrath...

Wow! You equate yelling at someone with wrath.

Not everyone would.

Oh yes, opening a car door into a cyclist's path is negligent and dumb if accidental, but wrathful if done purposely.

[Johnson81]

In my experience some police officers expect me to respect them simply because they are police officers. Sorry, that doesn’t work for me.

I will respect them if they treat me in a manner which deserves respect in return. I would think they would expect the same from me, but the feeling I get (based on several situations I have been in personally) is that they treat individuals as criminals, whether they are or not, whether there is any evidence that they are or not.

I’m sorry, but if you treat me like a bum for no reason don’t expect me to treat you like someone I should respect.


Wrong. You will respect them, because they are in a position of authority...period.

PO's, for the most part, respond to how people treat them. I always start off nice and go from there. You want to give me an attitude, prepare to get one back...only I'll win, everytime. You treat me with respect and I can be the nicest person you'll ever meet.

[rugbysecondrow]

Wow! You equate yelling at someone with wrath.

Not everyone would.

Oh yes, opening a car door into a cyclist's path is negligent and dumb if accidental, but wrathful if done purposely.


Why else would you yell at somebody? Does this happen normally? I haven't been yelled at since my days in the military, not something I deal with at all now. Frankly, I have worked in many places, travel quite a bit and yelling is not a standard for of communication unless in anger and even then rational folks just don't do it.

Sure it is negligent, but so is stepping on somebodies toe or backing into a car in a parking lot. If I accidently clipped a car in a parking lot and began getting yelled at, we would have an issue and the situation would escalate quickly. Maybe I just think people shouldn't speak more seriously than they are willing to act or at least back up. Period.

[firerescuefin]

Having once experienced a police state and fearing that we are slowly moving in that direction by allowing LEOs to have more authority and less accountability we just need to agree to disagree. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not anti-police at all; I’m against the broken system we have created in the name of protecting ourselves. The cost of safety is too high in my humble opinion.

Where have you experienced a "police state"? Are you from Eastern Europe?

I work with Cops EVERYDAY. Bell curves exist for a reason. Yes there are some ????ty ones in the one tail of the curve, and we have all dealt with them.....much like we have dealt with ????ty doctors, dentists, mechanics, engineers, bike riders, etc. Cops have LESS authority, MORE Accountability, and MORE responsibility than ever. The are so overly critiqued in most situations that they have gotten to the point that they are afraid to make decisions. That's dangerous, for them, you, and me. That's why I would never want to be one. Threads like this tend to be incredibly irrational....and therfore pretty much worthless. It's like somebody never having served in a theater of war telling someone who has how "it is".

[DHallerman]

Why else would you yell at somebody? Does this happen normally? I haven't been yelled at since my days in the military, not something I deal with at all. Frankly, I have worked in many places, travel quite a bit and yelling is not a standard for of communication unless in anger.

Why else other than wrath? (Please look up the word, which includes an element of vindictiveness to it. Anger does not equal wrath.)

You'd yell because you were surprised by something dangerous they just did to you.

You'd yell to stop someone from doing something dangerous.

Oh right, you wouldn't yell. But many people would, and because of the fear created by the dangerous act of another -- and not with wrath.

Dave, who says you can find one definition here http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Wrath

[goonster]

Where have you experienced a "police state"? Are you from Eastern Europe?
He's from Cuba, and he's not joking.

[firerescuefin]

He's from Cuba, and he's not joking.

That would be a police state. I have never been to Cuba, but I am having a hard time believing that the performance of our LEOs is similar to Castro's "goons".....goonster.

Damn it...every time I take part in of these threads, I swear I am going to stay out of them...I made it to page 5 this time. I need harder gatorade.

[rugbysecondrow]

Thanks for the dictionary link, I used the word as intended. People can discern when one is startled, scared or fearful...they can also discern when somebody is cheering, joyful or yelling in anger (wrath). We are, at least I am, discussing somebody yelling in anger and not when my daughter yells from the other room that she just went potty. C'mon Dave.

Paul, who is astounded I just took the time to explain myself to Dave.



Why else other than wrath? (Please look up the word, which includes an element of vindictiveness to it. Anger does not equal wrath.)

You'd yell because you were surprised by something dangerous they just did to you/

You'd yell to stop someone from doing something dangerous.

Oh right, you wouldn't yell. But many people would, and because of the fear created by the dangerous act of another -- and not with wrath.

Dave, who says you can find one definition here http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Wrath

[rugbysecondrow]

That would be a police state. I have never been to Cuba, but I am having a hard time believing that the performance of our LEOs is similar to Castro's "goons".....goonster.

Damn it...every time I take part in of these threads, I swear I am going to stay out of them...I made it to page 5 this time. I need harder gatorade.

Or more HATE-OR-ADE, then you could just start piling on like everybody else...won't that be fun. :crap:

[EDS]

This thread has become amusing. The more some people type, the more you realize how little they know.

[christian]

Sure it is negligent, but so is stepping on somebodies toe or backing into a car in a parking lot. If I accidently clipped a car in a parking lot and began getting yelled at, we would have an issue and the situation would escalate quickly. Maybe I just think people shouldn't speak more seriously than they are willing to act or at least back up. Period.

Stepping on someone's toe doesn't have potentially fatal impacts. Dooring does. If someone doored me, I'd yell at them. Cop or not.

[goonster]

I am having a hard time believing that the performance of our LEOs is similar to Castro's "goons".....goonster.
You know it when you see it.

I grew up on three different continents, so I've been exposed to a wide variety of LEO attitudes and actions. Independent of ideology, political system or culture, LEO's will abuse their power in the absence of accountability.

From what I've experienced and read, U.S. LEO's come in a dizzying variety of flavors, and there are many small, rural departments operating with minimal oversight where there are lot of opportunities for abuse and corruption (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-texas-profiling_wittmar10,0,6051682.story).

OK, this is not a rural case, but the NYPD has also engaged in some practices that might (http://www.villagevoice.com/2010-05-04/news/the-nypd-tapes-inside-bed-stuy-s-81st-precinct/) not stand up to scrutiny (http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/414/right-to-remain-silent).

My point is this: the attitude "No U.S. cops can't possibly be as bad as Cuban cops" is a non-starter. Once you have seen where the abuses can lead you shed the "that can never happen to me" or "that can never happen here" self-delusion. I never, ever assume that any LEO (including the one in this story) is "bad", but I do know that it's possible and that, as a society, we have to watch out for the bad ones. Because we're not a corrupt, totalitarianist society.

[firerescuefin]

You know it when you see it.

My point is this: the attitude "No U.S. cops can't possibly be as bad as Cuban cops" is a non-starter. Once you have seen where the abuses can lead you shed the "that can never happen to me" or "that can never happen here" self-delusion. I never, ever assume that any LEO (including the one in this story) is "bad", but I do know that it's possible and that, as a society, we have to watch out for the bad ones. Because we're not a corrupt, totalitarianist society.


Goonster. My guess is we agree much more than we disagree in this matter. I have lived and served on 3 continents, so I too have seen the good and the bad. My point was not that there are not bad Cops (individuals)....actually quite the opposite. My point is that the generalization/broad brush insinuation that police organizations are moving us closer towards a police state or that most in non traffic situations are abusing civil rights is wrong IMO. To the haters out there. Rather than telling us how it is, volunteer for a ride along with your local PD. Might be a good perspective broadener.

[JMerring]

My point is this: the attitude "No U.S. cops can't possibly be as bad as Cuban cops" is a non-starter. Once you have seen where the abuses can lead you shed the "that can never happen to me" or "that can never happen here" self-delusion. I never, ever assume that any LEO (including the one in this story) is "bad", but I do know that it's possible and that, as a society, we have to watch out for the bad ones. Because we're not a corrupt, totalitarianist society.

moreover, in spite of our democracy, quasi respect for human rights and adherence to the rule of law (at least moreso than your average third world country), our history is, sadly, replete with many many instances of law enforcement officials and officers abusing - often grossly and violently - their power. that's not to say i don't respect them - i do, mostly 'cos they wield a gun and big stick and have been officially sanctioned to use them, sometimes willy nilly.

back to masters live...

[slowgoing]

This thread brings up a more basic issue: who is at fault when a cyclist gets doored? When I'm riding beside cars so fast that it is impossible to see or react to an opening door, I ride further out than a door length. Don't others do this as well? Not that I wouldn't be mad if a driver opened a car door without seeing me, but who wants to take a chance on that kind of collision?

[EDS]

This thread brings up a more basic issue: who is at fault when a cyclist gets doored? When I'm riding beside cars so fast that it is impossible to see or react to an opening door, I ride further out than a door length. Don't others do this as well? Not that I wouldn't be mad if a driver opened a car door without seeing me, but who wants to take a chance on that kind of collision?

Check our NY Vehicle and Traffic Law Sec. 1214.

[christian]

My point is that the generalization/broad brush insinuation that police organizations are moving us closer towards a police state or that most in non traffic situations are abusing civil rights is wrong IMO.This is a straw man. No one in this thread is saying that. What we are saying is that when the situation surrounds the NYPD and cyclists, NYPD does not get the benefit of the doubt generally afforded law enforcement officers. This is based on personal experience, experience of friends, and known history since the RNC 2004. My point was, and remains, this is an unfortunate situation for the NYPD to be in. It's better to be respected because the public believe you have their best interests in mind, rather than because you carry a gun.

[firerescuefin]

This is a straw man. No one in this thread is saying that. What we are saying is that when the situation surrounds the NYPD and cyclists, NYPD does not get the benefit of the doubt generally afforded law enforcement officers. This is based on personal experience, experience of friends, and known history since the RNC 2004. My point was, and remains, this is an unfortunate situation for the NYPD to be in. It's better to be respected because the public believe you have their best interests in mind, rather than because you carry a gun.


Actually someone said exactly that. Hence my response.

[Grant McLean]

Wrong. You will respect them, because they are in a position of authority...period.

PO's, for the most part, respond to how people treat them.

Isn't this is true of everyone?

I would imagine the woman on the bike didn't think she was treated very well
by someone opening a car door in their path...

g

[Dlevy05]

You know it when you see it.

My point is this: the attitude "No U.S. cops can't possibly be as bad as Cuban cops" is a non-starter. Once you have seen where the abuses can lead you shed the "that can never happen to me" or "that can never happen here" self-delusion. I never, ever assume that any LEO (including the one in this story) is "bad", but I do know that it's possible and that, as a society, we have to watch out for the bad ones. Because we're not a corrupt, totalitarianist society.


I agree, and particularly, I've noticed it here in California where there are vehicular codes specifically prohibiting 'Speed Traps' and VC's ensuring that each speedlimit is set at a certain percentage of drivers' speeds (NOT just 25 mph because a city wants to unreasonably slow traffic down and ticket them when people drive according to the conditions and exceed the limit).

This abuse of the power is only getting worse and wose, day by day. Trying to fight tickets with the argument that the California Vehicular code is on your side will not stand in court, as cities just are after money at this point.

I'm not saying I know how it is all over, but this is the situation here in the bay area, coming from someone who drives a lot (about 20-25k a year).

I've personally, only received one ticket (moving violation) in my life, but that's a whole 'nother story of abuse of power that I don't even want to get into now...

[Samster]

1. someone posts a story
2. someone makes a generalization
3. someone else takes exception
4. thinly disguised bickering ensues
5. a few attempts to mollify by encouraging drift
6. longer, more complicated attacks and counterattacks
7. threadlock.
:beer:

[mister]

^ yeah that pretty much.

the best part about all the bickering is...the cop in this incident was not even in uniform or in a marked car.
so any of you guys are going to yell at someone that's about to door you right? or if you're rugbysecondrow you won't yell nad just get doored...

if any of you have been doored or almost been hit by a car then you know how much adrenaline is pumping. the girl could've very easily not heard the guy say he's a cop...or maybe he didn't even say it. there is no telling.

most likely the girl did nothing wrong.

[Lifelover]

This thread brings up a more basic issue: who is at fault when a cyclist gets doored? When I'm riding beside cars so fast that it is impossible to see or react to an opening door, I ride further out than a door length. Don't others do this as well? Not that I wouldn't be mad if a driver opened a car door without seeing me, but who wants to take a chance on that kind of collision?

Cyclist are NEVER at fault!

[Louis]

Wrong. You will respect them, because they are in a position of authority...period.

Ha - that's a good one.

They may be police officers, but the fact that they have a badge and a gun is hardly sufficient reason to respect them. I will be civil, just as I am civil to any other folks I meet on the street, but respect is more than that.

Whether I respect them is 100% up to me. They can't make it so by waiving either the badge or the gun in my face (and in fact if they do, you can be sure that they will never get my respect). Respect is I something I confer. You can behave in a manner that makes it more likely that I will respect you, but other than that, you have zero say in the matter.

Perhaps you need to reconsider what gains you the respect of others. Your ability to threaten me is the last thing in the world I respect.

It seems to me that we have different definitions of respect, but for me you have to earn it, it is not granted automatically.

Louis

[rugbysecondrow]

This thread brings up a more basic issue: who is at fault when a cyclist gets doored? When I'm riding beside cars so fast that it is impossible to see or react to an opening door, I ride further out than a door length. Don't others do this as well? Not that I wouldn't be mad if a driver opened a car door without seeing me, but who wants to take a chance on that kind of collision?

This is just crazy talk. ;)



^ yeah that pretty much.

the best part about all the bickering is...the cop in this incident was not even in uniform or in a marked car.
so any of you guys are going to yell at someone that's about to door you right? or if you're rugbysecondrow you won't yell nad just get doored...
if any of you have been doored or almost been hit by a car then you know how much adrenaline is pumping. the girl could've very easily not heard the guy say he's a cop...or maybe he didn't even say it. there is no telling.

most likely the girl did nothing wrong.


"I had a verbal exchange with the driver in which I told him to watch what he was doing."


So, she was riding along, almost got doored, told the cop to watch what he was doing, then he chased her down and arrested her. I forgot that he did all of this AND called in support from nearby patrol cars. Um, not likley. I think she is conveneintly leaving out details of the "verbal exchange" part of the story. Blame it on adrenaline, poor memory, or a matter of convenience, but I think her recolection of events of pretty unlikely.

Shouting a warning or saying watch out is one thing, I severly doubt this would prompt an off-duty officer to ruin his day off to chase some chick on a bike and arrest her.

It seems hard for people to admit that maybe BOTH people are at fault and responsible for the escalation of the incident.

Maybe I enjoyed my mispent youth days sufficiently so I don't yearn for them or recreate them on the message boards as an adult, but it seems there is still some piss and vinager that needs to get out. Buck the system, damn the man, go get'em tiger. :rolleyes:

[mister]

go get'em tiger.

ha.
you definitely do this in almost every OT thread.

[rugbysecondrow]

I find the echoes boring and predictable. Oh well, time to move on.

[Dlevy05]

So, she was riding along, almost got doored, told the cop to watch what he was doing, then he chased her down and arrested her. I forgot that he did all of this AND called in support from nearby patrol cars. Um, not likley. I think she is conveneintly leaving out details of the "verbal exchange" part of the story. Blame it on adrenaline, poor memory, or a matter of convenience, but I think her recolection of events of pretty unlikely.

Shouting a warning or saying watch out is one thing, I severly doubt this would prompt an off-duty officer to ruin his day off to chase some chick on a bike and arrest her.

It seems hard for people to admit that maybe BOTH people are at fault and responsible for the escalation of the incident.

Maybe I enjoyed my mispent youth days sufficiently so I don't yearn for them or recreate them on the message boards as an adult, but it seems there is still some piss and vinager that needs to get out. Buck the system, damn the man, go get'em tiger. :rolleyes:


While what you're saying makes a lot of sense, I think you may be over simplifying a few things. Truth is (as you mention) that we don't know what was actually said. And I do believe that her account of things is probably isn't as accurate as she thinks.

The most probable scenario is that expletives were used in her reaction to almost being doored, and that's what ticked off the cop.

A statement along the lines of "Holy *****, you almost f---ing hit me, and you're the one who's illegally parked, F--king a-hole!", is what I'd expect from most cyclists if I was the doorer in the situation.

However, police usually are SENSITIVE people. VERY SENSITIVE PEOPLE. Maybe that's because they're outnumbered and outgunned (as was pointed out earlier), or maybe because they're just insecure, who the heck knows, but it is the truth. Therefore, a perfectly 'expected' or 'normal' response like the above, pointing out what happened, with the addition of a little bit too much emotion from the dooree :) could have easily resulted in the cop being ticked off enough to pursue her.

Additionally, calling in a marked car, with an officer is more likely 'standard procedure' than the cop going out of his way to call for backup.

I am not familiar with the law completely, but as I understand it, cops who are not in uniform and in unmarked cars, have certain restrictions when it comes to pulling people over, arresting, and ticketing. Plus, as we all know (from the cops going door to door apologizing for tickets issued in central park) even a police dept. with too much on their plate will not necessarily pursue their work in an efficient manner.

[Grant McLean]

Shouting a warning or saying watch out is one thing, I severly doubt this would prompt an off-duty officer to ruin his day off to chase some chick on a bike and arrest her.

Ruined, or made his day, that's the question.

-g

[RPS]

It seems to me that we have different definitions of respect, but for me you have to earn it, it is not granted automatically.

Louis
Precisely. :beer:

Apparently he doesn’t know the difference and doesn’t differentiate between respect and fear – which isn’t all that uncommon in many circles. Any bully with a gun can intimidate helpless people into fear, but it takes a just man to earn their respect. Unfortunately too many people in positions of power – including some bad cops – wrongly associate fear with respect.

[SEABREEZE]

Everything speculative, he said, she said,

Heres the law, you decide

From New York State Vehicle Code:

1214. Opening and closing vehicle doors. No person shall open the
door of a motor vehicle on the side available to moving traffic unless
and until it is reasonably safe to do so, and can be done without
interfering with the movement of other traffic,

I REST MY CASE !!!

[rugbysecondrow]

Everything speculative, he said, she said,

Heres the law, you decide

From New York State Vehicle Code:

1214. Opening and closing vehicle doors. No person shall open the
door of a motor vehicle on the side available to moving traffic unless
and until it is reasonably safe to do so, and can be done without
interfering with the movement of other traffic,

I REST MY CASE !!!

Thread drift...so cyclists are traffic now? Interesting, now let's talk about stop signs, stop lights and one way streets.

[r_mutt]

rugbysecondrow, either you are a police officer, or have relatives that are as you don't sound objective at all. why would you automatically believe one party over the other without hearing either in person? in this instance, the cyclist did not go through a stop sign, a stop light, not was going the wrong way on a one way street. so who would be at fault here?

the truth will come out soon enough. a lawsuit looks more than likely.

[SEABREEZE]

Thread drift...so cyclists are traffic now? Interesting, now let's talk about stop signs, stop lights and one way streets.


No person shall open the
door of a motor vehicle on the side available to moving traffic

Read into it what you want, but I beleive,a savy attorney cold have grounds to agrue that point, that a bicyclist is part of traffic moving.

"now let's talk about stop signs, stop lights and one way streets"

This has no relation to the incident described
However we as bicyclist, have to obey stop signs, stop lights and one way streets, as any vechile does. So whats your point

[rugbysecondrow]

rugbysecondrow, either you are a police officer, or have relatives that are as you don't sound objective at all. why would you automatically believe one party over the other without hearing either in person? in this instance, the cyclist did not go through a stop sign, a stop light, not was going the wrong way on a one way street. so who would be at fault here?

the truth will come out soon enough. a lawsuit looks more than likely.



I am a rider/cyclist and I have friends who are police officers, firemen, military folks, FBI special agents etc. I also have friends who are lawyers, engineers, architects, urban planners, truck driver, plumbers, golf cart salesman, bankers etc.

Nobody is perfect and I don't know who is right or wrong in this instance, but neither does anybody else. What seems apparent is that there is such vitriol for the police that folks are ready to believe this story (which has obvious holes both in timeline and logic) and crucify the police.

Part of me is playing devils advocate because I think many of you sound like jerks on this issue, part of me is sticking up for the other side because the echos were getting ridiculous, and the other part actually feels the police do so much good but that it is unfair for them to get generalized like most of you have done. Fundamentally, I think people or entities should be more defined by their collective deeds rather than these errant situations. I think the police do much more good than bad, I believe they are good for our society and for us as a whole. That doesn't mean we ignore issues involving the police, but it also doesn't mean with blindly believe every single story that shows up on some second rate periodical.

[rugbysecondrow]

No person shall open the
door of a motor vehicle on the side available to moving traffic

Read into it what you want, but I beleive,a savy attorney cold have grounds to agrue that point, that a bicyclist is part of traffic moving.

"now let's talk about stop signs, stop lights and one way streets"

This has no relation to the incident described
However we as bicyclist, have to obey stop signs, stop lights and one way streets, as any vechile does. So whats your point

I never said it was related, that is why I specified it as a thread drift. I was just clarifying your point that you think cyclists are part of traffic. Some of your comrades seem to not believe bikes need to obey the rules of the road in NYC because NYC is unique. Like I said, just a thread drift, but interesting the number of people who feel it is important to quote statutes when it is convenient.

None of this changes the fact that we know one persons side of the story, the person who was arrested. If this was any other crime, incident or situation, would you believe the person who was arrested automatically, especially when the timeline of her story is very convenient towards her ends and makes no sense?

[SEABREEZE]

I am a rider/cyclist and I have friends who are police officers, firemen, military folks, FBI special agents etc. I also have friends who are lawyers, engineers, architects, urban planners, truck driver, plumbers, golf cart salesman, bankers etc.

Nobody is perfect and I don't know who is right or wrong in this instance, but neither does anybody else. What seems apparent is that there is such vitriol for the police that folks are ready to believe this story (which has obvious holes both in timeline and logic) and crucify the police.

Part of me is playing devils advocate because I think many of you all sound like jerks on this issue, part of me is sticking up for the other side because the echos were getting ridiculous, and the other part actually feels the police do so much good but that it is unfair for them to get generalized like most of you have done. Fundamentally, I think people or entities should be more defined by their collective deeds rather than these errant situations. I think the police do much more good than bad, I believe they are good for our society and for us as a whole. That doesn't mean we ignore issues involving the police, but it also doesn't mean with blindly believe every single story that shows up on some second rate periodical.


What does any of this have to do with the incident, Its your philosophic opinion, just as its there's. No one called you a Jerk, because they dont agree with you

Time to close this thread

[DHallerman]

Time to close this thread

+1

I deleted one of my comments above because I didn't want to get into ad hominem attacks.

I could only wish the same from all.

[rugbysecondrow]

have a nice weekend everybody.

[Bob Ross]

She likely took a mistake (the open door) and made it personal.


I haven't finished reading this entire thread, so I apologize if someone's already called you on this, but for the record, opening one's door into a traffic lane isn't a "mistake", it's a violation of New York State Vehicle & Traffic Code. (§1214: No person shall open the door of a motor vehicle on the side available to moving traffic unless and until it is reasonably safe to do so, and can be done without interfering with the movement of other traffic.)

Driver (plainclothes officier) broke the law. Period.

Cyclist probably called him on it. Quite possibly used profanity.

Schidt hit fan.

[Pete Serotta]

Please no attack on each other....I have left open so others can learn "others views" and perceptions. I learn from these also...

BUT no attacks on others are allowed, at least not here.. I learned others views on the "gun" posts and do not agree but I do not think I attacked anyone, although I did state my views from the bottom of my heart on a subject that is emotional to me in many ways.


Please state your view, learn others views and leave it at that... "Jerk" solves nothing in personal attacks BUT it does get our IRISH up.. :D

Closing , at least for me is a last resort. It is easy to do but stops the communications.....


THANKS and :beer: :beer: to all PETE