steel bikes, ride differences....

[AngryScientist]

disclaimer: this is really just a curiosity of mine, please, please do not interpret this as me questioning the talent, abilities or beauty of anyone's work, just curiosity.

question:

If a frame is made with the EXACT same geometry, and the EXACT same tubing, welded to the same AWS spec. will it ride differently than another, independent of who's name is on the downtube??

[Aaron O]

No. Bikes built by my favorite builders will always be more vertically compliant and laterally stiff.

[rugbysecondrow]

EDIT: Misread OP, answered a question not asked.

[AngryScientist]

my basis for the question lies in my background: engineering

i'm sitting here writing a specification, and if it's detailed enough, i should get the exact same product from any of 100 shops in 100 different countries, made by people of 100 different cultures. it's interesting.

[veloduffer]

If a frame is made with the EXACT same geometry, and the EXACT same tubing, welded to the same AWS spec. will it ride differently than another, independent of who's name is on the downtube??

In theory, yes. But no tubes are exactly alike and put together exactly the same - there are manufacturing tolerances. And those differences will be multiplied by the mfg tolerances in each component - tires, rims, etc.

For example, there's a notable difference in actual rim weights. This is true in golf, where the mfg tolerances can affect the playability of a club head. The general rule is demo-ing a club is that if that demo club works for you on the tryout, it's the one you should buy.

[bobswire]

Depends on whose name is on the downtube and how much you paid for it. :rolleyes:

Basically you're buying the name like a work of art, otherwise function and form would be equal given the boundary you set forth.

[e-RICHIE]

my basis for the question lies in my background: engineering


that explains your boldfaced question in the OP atmo. here, read this (http://www.violinist.com/discussion/response.cfm?ID=19794). some of the replies on the thread speak to your interest in how things are made. secrets, recipes, repeatability are sometimes just words. without factoring in the maker, his mood, or even what day the piece was made, you won't really have an answer. also, you are part of the equation. how knowledgeable and sensitive are you as a user, and does your experience level allow you to discern the minute differences that will always be there? ps - you don't ride a frame, you ride a bicycle. the parts you choose can also affect how you feel about it all. hey - thanks for reading.

ps

arrange disorder

:o :o :o
:o :o :o
:o ;) :)

[AngryScientist]

here, read this (http://www.violinist.com/discussion/response.cfm?ID=19794).


very interesting thread parallel. thanks for that.

i really asked the question to gather peoples feelings, from a technical perspective i absolutely know the answer. But, i like to read people's responses as to the "feel" of their bicycles, it's pretty wild, and i think you are spot on with the parallel to the musical instruments. the passion the builder puts into the work somehow comes through, sometimes almost independent of the technical build details.

[Hawker]

I've just spent the last two days trying to find some white paint to match a Landshark frame I bought, as I want to do some touch up. I have looked at well over 150 shades of white...and still can't find one to match. Luckily I ran across a nice body shop manager who was kind enough to let me look at every color white made by every car manufacturer who sells cars in the U.S.

All that to say...even a specific shade of white by a specific manufacture has "variant" shades depending on which plant in the U.S. mixed the color...even though they are using the exact same pigments.

[rugbysecondrow]

very interesting thread parallel. thanks for that.

i really asked the question to gather peoples feelings, from a technical perspective i absolutely know the answer. But, i like to read people's responses as to the "feel" of their bicycles, it's pretty wild, and i think you are spot on with the parallel to the musical instruments. the passion the builder puts into the work somehow comes through, sometimes almost independent of the technical build details.

On Netflix, there is a really great documentary on Steinway. It is one of the best documentaries I have seen. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Note_by_Note:_The_Making_of_Steinway_L1037

[bobswire]

very interesting thread parallel. thanks for that.

i really asked the question to gather peoples feelings, from a technical perspective i absolutely know the answer. But, i like to read people's responses as to the "feel" of their bicycles, it's pretty wild, and i think you are spot on with the parallel to the musical instruments. the passion the builder puts into the work somehow comes through, sometimes almost independent of the technical build details.

No fair,your question didn't suggest variables , Quote: If a frame is made with the EXACT same geometry, and the EXACT same tubing, welded to the same AWS spec. will it ride differently than another, independent of who's name is on the downtube?

How one "feels" about his bike is an all together different matter.

[AngryScientist]

No fair,
:banana:

[bobswire]

:banana:

Never the less good subject for this forum. :beer:
Having said that I'd kill for an RS frame. BTW a great deal and long term investment here... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170621978485

[old_fat_and_slow]

question:

If a frame is made with the EXACT same geometry, and the EXACT same tubing, welded to the same AWS spec. will it ride differently than another, independent of who's name is on the downtube??

No, if the drawing tolerances are tight, and the steel tubes come from the same source, and the mechanical properties of the steels used are identical, then the frames should ride the same. The only thing the framebuilder is doing, is connecting the pieces. The only variables the framebuilder can influence are, how close the fit is pre-weld, and then the weld itself. Depending on the welding technique the builder used, then the amount of heat used to make the weld can vary, and then the heat-affected zone size will be variable. However, this is very local, and cannot really influence overall ride. Tube alignment, and geometry and design details should all be called out on the drawing, and if the framebuilder adheres to all the drawing requirements, then, in my opinion, the ride differences would be imperceptible.

R. Sachs' analogy to violins, while interesting, is invalid for this comparison. Wood is a composite material, that is organically based. No two pieces of wood are going to be identical, even from the same tree. So your basic premise from the beginning is invalidated. The two luthiers cannot make an instrument sound exactly the same, because the materials they start with are not equivalent. Even violins, guitars, mandolins, coming out of the same shop made by the same people don't sound the same, because the materials are inherently different.

[fiamme red]

On Netflix, there is a really great documentary on Steinway. It is one of the best documentaries I have seen. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Note_by_Note:_The_Making_of_Steinway_L1037Yes, that is a great documentary. I highly recommend it.

[e-RICHIE]

Yes, that is a great documentary. I highly recommend it.
yes but - you have to remember that steinway, especially, would be the first to state that not only are no two pieces ever alike, and that it's impossible to make it so, but also they are the first to celebrate the differences among all that they make as well as assign virtue to that fact. repeatability be damned atmo.

ps

arrange disorder

:cool: :cool: :cool:
:cool: :cool: :cool:
:) :) :cool:

[rugbysecondrow]

yes but - you have to remember that steinway, especially, would be the first to state that not only are no two pieces ever alike, and that it's impossible to make it so, but also they are the first to celebrate the differences among all that they make as well as assign virtue to that fact. repeatability be damned atmo.

ps

arrange disorder

:cool: :cool: :cool:
:cool: :cool: :cool:
:) :) :cool:


Agreed. That is what was so cool about the documentary, seeing the artists bring these instruments to life, each of them unique.

[e-RICHIE]

Agreed. That is what was so cool about the documentary, seeing the artists bring these instruments to life, each of them unique.



ergo the OP should take this to heart and realize that words like same and exact don't apply to things made by hand atmo. i'm assuming since he posted here rather than on an engineer forum, his interest had some overlap into what framebuilders make rather than what comes out of a machine on second shift at interplanetary bicycles worldwide, inc.

ps

arrange disorder

:) :) :)
:) :) :)
:) :rolleyes: :cool:

[AngryScientist]

ergo the OP should take this to heart and realize that words like same and exact don't apply to things made by hand atmo.

i think this is the key, and i agree.

[fiamme red]

In the Steinway documentary, Pierre-Laurent Aimard goes through the room of pianos, rejecting one after another for his upcoming concert, because they don't have the appropriate tone and feeling for the music he will be playing. Finally he finds one that he's satisfied with.

It's possible for a highly-trained ear to tell differences between handmade Steinways. But I doubt anyone could tell the difference between the ride of two bikes built with identical geometry and tubing. I'm not talking about the visual aspects of the frames, just the ride.

[RPS]

R. Sachs' analogy to violins, while interesting, is invalid for this comparison.
I look at this comparison in the real world from yet another angle. If you take the best 100 violins ever made and let 100 “average” people play them, all 100 will essentially generate noise, right? And is there a difference between good noise and bad noise? Quality differences are simply drowned out by the noise. In order to discern any relevant difference between them it would take one of the world’s best violinists, and even then average people hearing the sound probably wouldn’t be able to distinguish differences.

Same with bikes. The average buyer will never be able to discern differences in framesets with identical dimensions and materials with the only variable being a qualified builder.

I forget the article (saved it but can’t find it), but this has been scientifically addressed before, and under more rigorous conditions than the OP stated. Identical framesets were built with different steel tube materials and in blind test riders couldn’t tell the difference.

In the context of ride quality, a bike artist can develop a unique and different product for a specific need, but in my opinion he can’t make the same exact product different.

[redir]

that explains your boldfaced question in the OP atmo. here, read this (http://www.violinist.com/discussion/response.cfm?ID=19794). some of the replies on the thread speak to your interest in how things are made. secrets, recipes, repeatability are sometimes just words. without factoring in the maker, his mood, or even what day the piece was made, you won't really have an answer. also, you are part of the equation. how knowledgeable and sensitive are you as a user, and does your experience level allow you to discern the minute differences that will always be there? ps - you don't ride a frame, you ride a bicycle. the parts you choose can also affect how you feel about it all. hey - thanks for reading.

ps

arrange disorder

:o :o :o
:o :o :o
:o ;) :)

Ok as a luthier myself I think it's great that you linked to this. I always think of hand made bikes and hand made guitars as very similar. Funny thing is on some of my luthiers forums this subject come up fairly often. In fact a while back I bought a box load of vintage Veloflex tubular tires from a luthier that used to race bikes in the 80,s and 90,s :banana:

I'm quite sure that if I had two sets of wood from the same tree, cut right side by side (ie the same tubing) and gave one set to a factory in China and one set to me the guitars would be different, perhaps the difference would be subtle perhaps it would be huge. And like the frame is a part of the bicycle so are the strings used a part of the guitar.

[e-RICHIE]

Ok as a luthier myself I think it's great that you linked to this. I always think of hand made bikes and hand made guitars as very similar. Funny thing is on some of my luthiers forums this subject come up fairly often. In fact a while back I bought a box load of vintage Veloflex tubular tires from a luthier that used to race bikes in the 80,s and 90,s :banana:

I'm quite sure that if I had two sets of wood from the same tree, cut right side by side (ie the same tubing) and gave one set to a factory in China and one set to me the guitars would be different, perhaps the difference would be subtle perhaps it would be huge. And like the frame is a part of the bicycle so are the strings used a part of the guitar.

[X] like atmo.

ps

arrange disorder

:) :cool: :)
:cool: :) :cool:
:) :cool: :)

[phcollard]

Ok as a luthier myself I think it's great that you linked to this. I always think of hand made bikes and hand made guitars as very similar.

The process and minding may be similar but imho that's where the similarity stops (I was a guitarmaker myself). There is a huge difference in material variation from one piece to another... wood being organic has much more variation in grain, structure, stiffness than a drawn tube of steel. I built dozens of acoustic guitars but I was never able to have one sound exactly the same as the other. They all sounded wonderful though :D

[bobswire]

Ok as a luthier myself I think it's great that you linked to this. I always think of hand made bikes and hand made guitars as very similar. Funny thing is on some of my luthiers forums this subject come up fairly often. In fact a while back I bought a box load of vintage Veloflex tubular tires from a luthier that used to race bikes in the 80,s and 90,s :banana:

I'm quite sure that if I had two sets of wood from the same tree, cut right side by side (ie the same tubing) and gave one set to a factory in China and one set to me the guitars would be different, perhaps the difference would be subtle perhaps it would be huge. And like the frame is a part of the bicycle so are the strings used a part of the guitar.

Why use a "factory" in China instead of a gifted craftsman from China like yourself? You guys have a tendency to skewer the original question to suit your outcome rather than what was originally stated in this thread. All thing being equal, no difference in material, welding ability and artistic genius.
More than likely the frames would feel the same other than in ones own imagination. IMHO

[Mark McM]

A slightly different question was asked in an article titled "The Magnificent Seven" in the February 1995 issue of Bicycle Guide Magazine - instead of testing frames with identical tubesets and joining methods built by different builders, the author tested frames with different steel tubesets built by the same builder.

The author Alan Cote was a long-time writer and editor of bicycle publications, and was even one of he inventors of the Polar Power Meter. For the article he was given 7 bike with identical geometry, identical components and wheels, and even painted the same, constructed by Mondonico of Italy. The only difference between them was that each was made from a different Columbus steel tubeset (some oversized, some standard sized; some Nivachrom steel (nickel-vanadium-chromium) some Cyclex (chromimu-molybdenum); some with differential butting (Genius) most with standard butting; one with seamed tubing, the rest with seamless tubing). He was not told which bike was which; they were only identified by number. After extensively riding all of them, he concluded that he could not discern any significant differences between them.

[e-RICHIE]

The process and minding may be similar but imho that's where the similarity stops (I was a guitarmaker myself). There is a huge difference in material variation from one piece to another... wood being organic has much more variation in grain, structure, stiffness than a drawn tube of steel. I built dozens of acoustic guitars but I was never able to have one sound exactly the same as the other. They all sounded wonderful though :D


spend some time with and around drawn steel tubes from one maker, or different batches from one maker, or pipes of the exact same metallurgy but drawn by competing mills and you'll realize that the similarities with making wood instruments is more close than far apart atmo. multiply that out with other variables like the myriad of subcontractors who supply the top tier filler metal brands with BAG-7 silver alloy rod (56 percent in this example) and other parts of the recipe needed to assemble a frame and we're back to "no two are alike, nor are they ever going to be alike...". no matter how hard you try, the material always becomes what it wants to be. you can tame it to an extent, and be pleased with yourself for doing so, but that's the way it is.

ps

arrange disorder

:D :D :D
;) ;) ;)
:p :p :p

[redir]

The process and minding may be similar but imho that's where the similarity stops (I was a guitarmaker myself). There is a huge difference in material variation from one piece to another... wood being organic has much more variation in grain, structure, stiffness than a drawn tube of steel. I built dozens of acoustic guitars but I was never able to have one sound exactly the same as the other. They all sounded wonderful though :D
Hah there ya see there is definitely a connection between building guitars and riding bikes :)

In fact luthier John Weissenreider lives in Italy and builds guitars used to be a professional bike racer :)

I resaw most of the woods for my guitars and they literally come off the same plank side by side. Of course there is a variation even there but it's definitely minimal. None the less, and I have tried on a few occasions, I've never built two guitars that sound the same. After about my 50th guitar I was able to at least build guitars that were similar, or shared a family of tones for example, this one it metallic or this model is powerful but lacks sustain, that sort of thing. Never two just alike though.

I can't really say with bikes because I don't have the experience but in either case there is much more involved then just what materials are used I think. When I sell a guitar quite honestly it's a mutual relationship between the guitarist, the luthier and the guitar. In this case it takes three to tango.

[/thread derail]

[redir]

Why use a "factory" in China instead of a gifted craftsman from China like yourself? You guys have a tendency to skewer the original question to suit your outcome rather than what was originally stated in this thread. All thing being equal, no difference in material, welding ability and artistic genius.
More than likely the frames would feel the same other than in ones own imagination. IMHO

Maybe I was responding more to some of the followups. So yeah ok in that case all things being equal it would be difficult to tell, sorry I missed that. I still think there would be a difference.

Now here is an interesting take on it.

Same material
Same robot machinery that makes a bike
Two different companies.

?

[phcollard]

spend some time with and around drawn steel tubes from one maker, or different batches from one maker, or pipes of the exact same metallurgy but drawn by competing mills and you'll realize that the similarities with making wood instruments is more close than far apart atmo. multiply that out with other variables like the myriad of subcontractors who supply the top tier filler metal brands with BAG-7 silver alloy rod (56 percent in this example) and other parts of the recipe needed to assemble a frame and we're back to "no two are alike, nor are they ever going to be alike...". no matter how hard you try, the material always becomes what it wants to be. you can tame it to an extent, and be pleased with yourself for doing so, but that's the way it is.

ps

I must admit that I won't feel qualified enough to judge one tube vs the one next to it. So what you're saying is that if you take a batch of Pego-Richie tubes and handle each tube individually I'll be able to spot differences across the batch? Wow I did not know. But again if I show you a pile of Sitka spruce guitar tops maybe you'll tell me they're all the same :) It's all a matter of sensitivity and experience with the material I guess.

Love.

Philippe.

[e-RICHIE]

A slightly different question was asked in an article titled "The Magnificent Seven" in the February 1995 issue of Bicycle Guide Magazine - instead of testing frames with identical tubesets and joining methods built by different builders, the author tested frames with different steel tubesets built by the same builder.

The author Alan Cote was a long-time writer and editor of bicycle publications, and was even one of he inventors of the Polar Power Meter. For the article he was given 7 bike with identical geometry, identical components and wheels, and even painted the same, constructed by Mondonico of Italy. The only difference between them was that each was made from a different Columbus steel tubeset (some oversized, some standard sized; some Nivachrom steel (nickel-vanadium-chromium) some Cyclex (chromimu-molybdenum); some with differential butting (Genius) most with standard butting; one with seamed tubing, the rest with seamless tubing). He was not told which bike was which; they were only identified by number. After extensively riding all of them, he concluded that he could not discern any significant differences between them.


mark - i think the statute of limitations is up on this one so let's talk about that article atmo. alan had a 6-7 mile loop around a lake and all units were used for a lap. also, this all occurred back before OS became so ubiquitous as far as pipe sizes go. so, anyone in the trade or the press who threw a leg over a bicycle and couldn't see the differences between a 1" top tube and a 1 1/8" top tube, and the odd MS multi-shapes that were part of the mix (to say nothing about the other tubes, forks, and stay shapes) was definitely writing for a different audience.

ps

arrange disorder

:cool: :) :rolleyes:
:rolleyes: :) :cool:
:) :rolleyes: :cool:

[phcollard]

Hah there ya see there is definitely a connection between building guitars and riding bikes :)


Yes and there are even more connections between building custom guitars and custom bicycle frames. Expertise, attention to details, pride in the finished product... they all apply. Not to mention the way of life which I imagine must be quite similar. A bit on the technical side, a bit on the artistic side. I believe I'll feel at home in a framebuilding workshop :)

Sorry for making the thread derail!

[RPS]

I'm quite sure that if I had two sets of wood from the same tree, cut right side by side (ie the same tubing) and gave one set to a factory in China and one set to me the guitars would be different, perhaps the difference would be subtle perhaps it would be huge. And like the frame is a part of the bicycle so are the strings used a part of the guitar.
Let’s accept “subtle or huge” differences are unavoidable due to variability. Can anyone predict with some level of certainty that one instrument will likely be “better” than another?

Its one thing to assume randomness alone will result in differences and another to assume intentional and controllable differences will lead to product superiority. That’s the way I interpreted the OP’s underlying question.

Besides, playing an instrument – particularly at a professional level -- requires a very rare god-given gift that enables a person to distinguish minor differences in sound. Practically everyone can and does ride a bike. I don’t see how the comparison can be applied to the masses that cycle on a daily basis.

[1centaur]

Heading back to the OP question, EXACT same tubing might be interpreted as EXACTLY one tubeset, as opposed to EXACTLY the same spec by the same maker, but otherwise (if the same alignment apparatus and skill were assumed) I think the same welding standard part was the most susceptible to manipulation. Is there more to the joining than the AWS standard (I know nothing of welding) that could be manipulated with intent of practical riding quality outcome by a builder?

My suspicion from reading this thread is that identical geo, tube spec/maker and welding technique/standard would lead to a frame the differences of which from its identical twin would be not only be practically indiscernible (one wonders how a claimed difference could be tested scientifically) but they would be unintentional and random. If the latter, they are not worth worrying about as the factors behind them cannot be controlled. Nor would one ever A/B a frame and feel the lack of one vs. the other.

This thread reminded me of The Competition (Richard Dreyfuss and Amy Irving) where the competitors tested the American Steinway and the German Steinway to find the one with the tone they sought for their upcoming competition.

[phcollard]

Let’s accept “subtle or huge” differences are unavoidable due to variability. Can anyone predict with some level of certainty that one instrument will likely be “better” than another?

In that particuliar example yes. Because they is more than top/sides/back wood quality on a guitar. The variations in sound also come from the way the top is braced for instance (braces are pieces of wood glued underneath the top, a few on the back as well, sometimes on the sides, to enable the guitar to withstand the forces of the strings pulling the bridge). The bracing pattern (traditional or Kasha or...), the way braces are worked (plain or scalopped) will greatly influence the sound of the finished guitar even if they are made from wood from the same billet. But better is really personal at this level. They'll all be good instruments.

So to answer your question I don't know if I can predict which one will be "better". But if I ship the same wood to different builders using different techniques I can certainly predict the personality of the instrument that will be built.

Besides, playing an instrument – particularly at a professional level -- requires a very rare god-given gift that enables a person to distinguish minor differences in sound. Practically everyone can and does ride a bike. I don’t see how the comparison can be applied to the masses that cycle on a daily basis.

I have to disagree a bit. You don't need the gift of God to hear minor differences in sound and women do better than men in this field. My girlfriend can easily spot which guitar I play accross the room without looking. And she's not really a gifted musician (sorry darling).

[Ahneida Ride]

There is theory and then there is reality.

I theory, all cars built on an automated assembly line should be identical.

[goonster]

i'm sitting here writing a specification, and if it's detailed enough, i should get the exact same product from any of 100 shops in 100 different countries, made by people of 100 different cultures. it's interesting.
I disagree. They will satisfy the spec, but they won't be "the same".

You see this all the time with parts for mass-produced cars, for example. The same part (filters, bushings, control arms, etc.) will be made by different vendors, to the same specs, and they may be functionally equivalent, but you can tell that they are different. The only way to get the same widget would be to provide a batch of samples with the instruction "make indistinguishable copies."

But you need to step back and ask "does it matter?" Your well-written spec will ensure that it doesn't. If it has the required dimensions, is made from 316L, has the right finish, etc., then it doesn't matter that there are minor cosmetic variances, for example.

I can accept e-Richie's assertion that the tubes, lugs and filler rods are not all perfectly alike, but I cannot believe that two frames he builds to the same specs, barring subterfuge or sabotage, will ride differently in any way that is significant to the rider. Un velo n'est pas une violin. That's french for "let's not get too mystical about this isht, atmo".

[slowpoke]

Un velo n'est pas une violin. That's french for "let's not get too mystical about this isht, atmo".

Exactly. While the instrument analogy is nice, the human ear is probably more discerning than our sense of touch. Obviously, the bikes will be different, but only a minuscule number of folks might be able to perceive those differences in an ABX test (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABX_test).

In addition, there are other, arguable more significant, variables that will dictate the feel of the bike.

[goonster]

I theory, all cars built on an automated assembly line should be identical.
No. The theory anticipates variances and defects, so the design of the automated widget machine includes QC and remediation: visual inspection, weight checks, etc.

[jaykosta]

my basis for the question lies in my background: engineering

i'm sitting here writing a specification, and if it's detailed enough, i should get the exact same product from any of 100 shops in 100 different countries, made by people of 100 different cultures. it's interesting.
======================================

It depends on how much variance the 'spec' allows.
With a welding / brazing spec, I'm sure there would some slight differences between joints done at the 'high end' compared with the 'low end'.
Similarly for tubing length, weight, etc.
Whether that could be detected by riding, or the 'service life', is questionable.

"Identical" is very rarely achieved....

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

[ergott]

The ability to duplicate the original is the problem.

Another example.

Ask a reed player to buy a box a reeds in front of you and let them go through their usual practice of throwing out about half of them. Same company. Made on the same equipment. They were probably made from same length of cane. Doesn't matter. They know when they have a good one.

I get rims from all different manufacturers and like Richard said, there's more variation than you think.

I think what is even more important is how the builder in question comes to the final result. Give Dave Kirk and Richard Sachs your measurements and the like and you will get two different frames. That's where the poetry begins.

[rugbysecondrow]

Un velo n'est pas une violin. That's french for "let's not get too mystical about this isht, atmo".


Awesome...I might have a new signature line... :beer:

[SEABREEZE]

that explains your boldfaced question in the OP atmo. here, read this (http://www.violinist.com/discussion/response.cfm?ID=19794). some of the replies on the thread speak to your interest in how things are made. secrets, recipes, repeatability are sometimes just words. without factoring in the maker, his mood, or even what day the piece was made, you won't really have an answer. also, you are part of the equation. how knowledgeable and sensitive are you as a user, and does your experience level allow you to discern the minute differences that will always be there? ps - you don't ride a frame, you ride a bicycle. the parts you choose can also affect how you feel about it all. hey - thanks for reading.

ps

arrange disorder

:o :o :o
:o :o :o
:o ;) :)

Bingo...... KEY WORD..... Minute

any further though will give you a Neurosis... who needs to make themself crazy over this ....real close "Minute " is good enough for me, move on and never give it a second thought . You made the best choice...

[Fixed]

It's possible for a highly-trained ear to tell differences between handmade Steinways.

not only the sound but the feel of the keyboard and the vibrations coming back to the hands ..
cheers

[Doug Fattic]

When I was apprenticing in England, the father of the family I stayed with had a hobby of keeping track of engines used in racing cars (formula 1 if I remember right). What he said was a surprise is that no matter how tight the manufacturing tolerances were, every once in awhile an engine would be faster and they didn't have an explanation. It should seem obvious that making things by hand is going to have a lot more variation (even within acceptable standards) than machine made things.

[old_fat_and_slow]

mark - i think the statute of limitations is up on this one so let's talk about that article atmo. alan had a 6-7 mile loop around a lake and all units were used for a lap. also, this all occurred back before OS became so ubiquitous as far as pipe sizes go. so, anyone in the trade or the press who threw a leg over a bicycle and couldn't see the differences between a 1" top tube and a 1 1/8" top tube, and the odd MS multi-shapes that were part of the mix (to say nothing about the other tubes, forks, and stay shapes) was definitely writing for a different audience.



Richard I disagree with your assertion that the statute of limitations has expired.
It was a blind test, that only varied the tube construction. This is the closest publicized test, that I am aware of, to the conditions specified by the original poster's conditions, that is, everything is equal but the builder's attachment procedures.

All your comments about different tube sizes, shapes, forks, and chainstays, while true, violate the conditions specified by the OP in this mental exercise. The conditions specified are, all raw materials are equivalent sizes, shapes, and stiffness parameters.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

People, listen. Nothing in the world is manufactured exactly the same, even off the same assembly line at the same company. Components are manufactured to certain dimensional tolerances. When you produce an overall final product from individual components, where the individual components fall in their "acceptable" dimensional tolerance band can affect the overall final product, usually in minor imperceptible way. If the manufacturer specifies extremely tight dimensional tolerances, then he will have difficulty meeting the tolerance band on a regular basis. He will then have a high reject rate on finished parts, and then end up scrapping a lot of parts, and the company will lose money. It is therefore the designer's responsibility to determine the maximum tolerance possible, so that the impact of the dimensional variation is minimal to the overall function of the assembly.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Regarding steels from different mills. Prior to producing a final product, the manufacturer must determine the appropriate material to fabricate his product from. The manufacturer will then go forth to the material supplier, and say I need steel "X" or aluminum "Y" or whatever that satisfies the design requirements. It is incumbent on the manufacturer to tell the mill what the minimum strength, and stiffness requirements are for the material he is purchasing. The mill must provide certification (test results) that prove the supplier's material satisfy the procurement requirements of the manufacturer. Therefore, if the mill or supplier is ethical, and the material satisfies the specified minimum requirements, then it does not matter whether the steel comes from Reynolds, True Temper, Columbus or whomever regarding satisfaction of minimum design requirements. Of course there can be variability in how far each of the suppliers exceed the minimum requirements. Differences in strength will not affect the frame's ride one iota. Only differences in the steel's inherent stiffness properties.

Steel is a homogeneous isotropic material, unlike wood. Isotropic means that if you take a chunk of steel, it's stiffness properties are invariant of the direction you pull it in. Homogeneous means that if you take a huge block of steel and cut it up into small pieces for mechanical testing, no matter what position in the huge chunk the small piece came from, all characteristics will be the same. That is, the properties are invariant based on the position. Wood is an inhomogeneous anisotropic material, which means its properties are both positionally dependent as well as directionally dependent. Hence, any parallel drawn between building with steel and with wood, must acknowledge that no two pieces of wood can be identical, whereas for steel you can prove that from a mechanical properties standpoint, these two chunks of steel are identical.


Apologies for the manifesto if you managed to read it all.

[phcollard]

Apologies for the manifesto if you managed to read it all.

That was an interesting read, no kidding

I agree with you. And thanks for the material science reminder :)

[Kirk007]

In fact luthier John Weissenreider lives in Italy and builds guitars used to be a professional bike racer :)



Big, big drift. I rode with John on a Hampsten tour in '99. What a great guy! He jumped on the stoker seat of our tandem and my wife hopped in the sag van for the climb up to Volterra. It was the one and only climb where we held off the other riders, except for Andy, who blew past us halfway up like we were standing still.

oh and it was on a steel tandem, built by Glen Erickson.

[old_fat_and_slow]

PS for anyone interested in the old article:

(Mods, if this is a copyright laws violation, please feel free to remove. However, BG is now a defunct company.)


http://i461.photobucket.com/albums/qq332/catchernrye/bikes/m7-1.jpg

http://i461.photobucket.com/albums/qq332/catchernrye/bikes/M7-2.jpg

http://i461.photobucket.com/albums/qq332/catchernrye/M7-3.jpg?1301514687

http://i461.photobucket.com/albums/qq332/catchernrye/M7-4.jpg?1301514739

http://i461.photobucket.com/albums/qq332/catchernrye/m7-5.jpg?1301514813

http://i461.photobucket.com/albums/qq332/catchernrye/M7-6.jpg?1301514887

http://i461.photobucket.com/albums/qq332/catchernrye/M7-7.jpg?1301514949


http://i461.photobucket.com/albums/qq332/catchernrye/M7-8.jpg?1301515012

[e-RICHIE]

<cut> I can accept e-Richie's assertion that the tubes, lugs and filler rods are not all perfectly alike, but I cannot believe that two frames he builds to the same specs, barring subterfuge or sabotage, will ride differently in any way that is significant to the rider. Un velo n'est pas une violin. That's french for "let's not get too mystical about this isht, atmo".
i'm sorry. maybe the OP wasn't clear or my comprehension is lacking, but i didn't think he meant two similar-ish units supplied by the same maker. i assumed he was after details and feelings that would be part of others trying to take the same pile of stuff and the same design and then mimicking it. my involvement here regards that, not whether two 55cm frames i build in succession (with the same pipes and the same fixture settings...) will be different. when i make the 'cross team frames i basically set the jig, throw in tubes, and have at it. i would expect the deviation among all of a similar size to be imperceptible. it should be no different that if an LBS lets you demo a 60cm whatevercycle when he knows that, if you cave, he can have the wrench unpack one from the warehouse since the shop bought a batch of them.

on the other hand, if someone else took the pile and the blueprints and torched it up, i do think a knowledgeable/experienced/sensitive user could find differences. sub-assemblies go together differently. heat and its effect on metal could play into it. alignment tolerances also will be part of the equation. if some of you think that the tactile senses are less discerning than the audible ones (the bicycle riding versus the playing/hearing a violin or guitar contrast), then we'll simply have to disagree. there's no reason to get contentious about it atmo. that's english for "ça m'est égal atmo."
The ability to duplicate the original is the problem.
I get rims from all different manufacturers and like Richard said, there's more variation than you think.
from a wheelbuilder - someone who actually uses and touches the parts in his daily routine (rather than simply analyzes the specs) i accept this.

PS for anyone interested in the old article:

ps i stand by my quote there at the end of the scanned article's text, even though it's fifteen years old. also, it's very telling that alan's final thoughts. if, as he writes, "The personality of a bike is determined much more by fit, frame geometry, and components than by what kind of tubing lies under the paint.", it begs the question, how could one pick a favorite or find differences if all the bicycles in question had the same and exact (sic) fit and frame geometry?

[zank]

Steel is a homogeneous isotropic material, unlike wood. Isotropic means that if you take a chunk of steel, it's stiffness properties are invariant of the direction you pull it in. Homogeneous means that if you take a huge block of steel and cut it up into small pieces for mechanical testing, no matter what position in the huge chunk the small piece came from, all characteristics will be the same. That is, the properties are invariant based on the position. Wood is an inhomogeneous anisotropic material, which means its properties are both positionally dependent as well as directionally dependent. Hence, any parallel drawn between building with steel and with wood, must acknowledge that no two pieces of wood can be identical, whereas for steel you can prove that from a mechanical properties standpoint, these two chunks of steel are identical.


This isn't true in a welded steel joint. Depending on the rate of cooling of a weld puddle and the surrounding HAZ, there will be varying amounts of pearlite, cementite, and ferrite. A larger beads cool slower and smaller beads cool faster simply due to the mass of material, and the ratio will be different in each case. The ratio determines the physical properties of the resulting matrix. Different ratios could result in a higher or lower modulus, affecting the ride of the frame. Since the OP is coming at this from an engineering background and this is really just an academic exercise, one has to believe that any differences in modulus in the material will result in different ride characteristics.

Just having specs and tolerances aren't enough. A frame can be brazed or welded into alignment (or the required tolerances) or it can be cold set. One will have more residual stress in the structure. Again, since the OP is coming at this from an engineering background and this is really just an academic exercise, one has to believe that any differences in stress in the frame will result in different ride characteristics.

It can be confounding how seemingly similar lots of materials can behave so differently from one sample to the next during fabrication. But you get a real sense for it when you repeat a step over the course of 20 or 30 tubes. I just finished mitering and doing braze-ons on 22 tubesets. You have to be flexible at times and adapt because the steel forces you to.

Fun stuff.

[old_fat_and_slow]

This isn't true in a welded steel joint. Depending on the rate of cooling of a weld puddle and the surrounding HAZ, there will be varying amounts of pearlite, cementite, and ferrite. A larger beads cool slower and smaller beads cool faster simply due to the mass of material, and the ratio will be different in each case. The ratio determines the physical properties of the resulting matrix. Different ratios could result in a higher or lower modulus, affecting the ride of the frame. Since the OP is coming at this from an engineering background and this is really just an academic exercise, one has to believe that any differences in modulus in the material will result in different ride characteristics.


zank I agree with what you say about the amount of heat used in the welding process affecting the extent of annealing occurring around the heat-affected zone at each weld joint, and I said so, in my post a couple of pages earlier. However, I disagree with you whether this can be perceived in the rider's rectal region. I don't believe localized annealing or microstructural differences will be perceptible in the final product. (Disagreement is expected and welcome.)

;)

[RPS]

from a wheelbuilder - someone who actually uses and touches the parts in his daily routine (rather than simply analyzes the specs) i accept this.
I get the impression that many on this forum think that most engineers sit at a desk with a computer and spend all their time calculating and specifying theoretical crap that others turn into real-world creations. And nothing is farther from the truth.

If you think touching a couple of steel tubes with your hands makes you distinctively qualified to things like equipment and material variations you should try being responsible for starting up a new manufacturing line for a new and unique product that uses all new purpose-built and mostly untested equipment running on new materials and packaging. You won’t only be touching but also hearing and looking at chaos while 100 people look over your shoulder to solve their problems because even the smallest variation in dimensions or equipment performance will bring the entire line to a standstill.

Trust me; plenty of engineers are hands-on types who live in the real world dealing with problems more complex than most here imagine.

[old_fat_and_slow]

I get the impression that many on this forum think that most engineers sit at a desk with a computer and spend all their time calculating and specifying theoretical crap that others turn into real-world creations. And nothing is farther from the truth.

If you think touching a couple of steel tubes with your hands makes you distinctively qualified to things like equipment and material variations you should try being responsible for starting up a new manufacturing line for a new and unique product that uses all new purpose-built and mostly untested equipment running on new materials and packaging. You won’t only be touching but also hearing and looking at chaos while 100 people look over your shoulder to solve their problems because even the smallest variation in dimensions or equipment performance will bring the entire line to a standstill.

Trust me; plenty of engineers are hands-on types who live in the real world dealing with problems more complex than most here imagine.


Very eloquently stated, Young Man ! ! ! :beer: :hello: :beer: :hello:

[e-RICHIE]

RPS - my comment certainly didn't encompass what engineers do. heck, i never even mentioned the profession.

I get the impression that many on this forum think that most engineers sit at a desk with a computer and spend all their time calculating and specifying theoretical crap that others turn into real-world creations. And nothing is farther from the truth.

If you think touching a couple of steel tubes with your hands makes you distinctively qualified to things like equipment and material variations you should try being responsible for starting up a new manufacturing line for a new and unique product that uses all new purpose-built and mostly untested equipment running on new materials and packaging. You won’t only be touching but also hearing and looking at chaos while 100 people look over your shoulder to solve their problems because even the smallest variation in dimensions or equipment performance will bring the entire line to a standstill.

Trust me; plenty of engineers are hands-on types who live in the real world dealing with problems more complex than most here imagine.

[Kirk007]

you should try being responsible for starting up a new manufacturing line for a new and unique product that uses all new purpose-built and mostly untested equipment running on new materials and packaging. You won’t only be touching but also hearing and looking at chaos while 100 people look over your shoulder to solve their problems because even the smallest variation in dimensions or equipment performance will bring the entire line to a standstill.



Aside from the stress of what happens assuming things hit the fan that actually sounds like a very fun and rewarding job. At any rate I'm sure folks in this position have earned their ride/beer whatever at the end of the day.

[AngryScientist]

I get the impression that many on this forum think that most engineers sit at a desk with a computer and spend all their time calculating and specifying theoretical crap that others turn into real-world creations. And nothing is farther from the truth.

If you think touching a couple of steel tubes with your hands makes you distinctively qualified to things like equipment and material variations you should try being responsible for starting up a new manufacturing line for a new and unique product that uses all new purpose-built and mostly untested equipment running on new materials and packaging. You won’t only be touching but also hearing and looking at chaos while 100 people look over your shoulder to solve their problems because even the smallest variation in dimensions or equipment performance will bring the entire line to a standstill.

Trust me; plenty of engineers are hands-on types who live in the real world dealing with problems more complex than most here imagine.

truth.

[SPOKE]

No. The theory anticipates variances and defects, so the design of the automated widget machine includes QC and remediation: visual inspection, weight checks, etc.

tolerances exist in all aspects of the construction. starting with the raw material used to create the tubing all the way to when the finished frame goes thru the alignment process........all the rest of the build kit suffers the same issues. doesn't matter if it is built using automation or by the skilled hands of an individual craftsman.

[e-RICHIE]

truth.
i am missing something. no one mentioned engineers in this thread, and no one even covertly skewered the profession. when you say (type) truth, i wonder what you mean? really, the thread is about your OP and i reread as much as i could and it seemed as though you were in accord with most of the replies, and none bordered on broad stroking any trade, much less yours or RPS' atmo.





that explains your boldfaced question in the OP atmo. here, read this (http://www.violinist.com/discussion/response.cfm?ID=19794).
very interesting thread parallel. thanks for that.

i really asked the question to gather peoples feelings, from a technical perspective i absolutely know the answer. But, i like to read people's responses as to the "feel" of their bicycles, it's pretty wild, and i think you are spot on with the parallel to the musical instruments. the passion the builder puts into the work somehow comes through, sometimes almost independent of the technical build details.
ergo the OP should take this to heart and realize that words like same and exact don't apply to things made by hand atmo. i'm assuming since he posted here rather than on an engineer forum, his interest had some overlap into what framebuilders make rather than what comes out of a machine on second shift at interplanetary bicycles worldwide, inc.

i think this is the key, and i agree.
I get the impression that many on this forum think that most engineers sit at a desk with a computer and spend all their time calculating and specifying theoretical crap that others turn into real-world creations. And nothing is farther from the truth.


RPS - my comment certainly didn't encompass what engineers do. heck, i never even mentioned the profession.

[AngryScientist]

i am missing something. no one mentioned engineers in this thread, and no one even covertly skewered the profession. when you say (type) truth, i wonder what you mean? really, the thread is about your OP and i reread as much as i could and it seemed as though you were in accord with most of the replies, and none bordered on broad stroking any trade, much less yours or RPS' atmo.

dont take that the wrong way, my "truth" was only an affirmation of the breadth of engineering responsibility in general, not to refute what you've said at all.

i have a lot of respect for all of the skilled frame builders that frequent this and other forums and value their opinions, judgment, advice and input, yours of course included.

i asked the original question to spur some conversation, and specifically input from frame builders as well as others who own multiple well designed and made frames, as my experience is limited to the relatively few bicycles i've had the pleasure of riding.

again, to be clear, i appreciate all of the well thought out input to this interesting topic. i'm not one of the pot-stirrers who posts just to get a reaction out of anyone. that is not my intention here.

:beer:

[old_fat_and_slow]

from a wheelbuilder - someone who actually uses and touches the parts in his daily routine (rather than simply analyzes the specs) i accept this.


When you state:


i am missing something. no one mentioned engineers in this thread, and no one even covertly skewered the profession.

I beg to differ with you Sir. Your statement at the top seems to be a pretty thinly-veiled slight against engineers. Hence, you come across as pretty disingenuous, and your statements elicited the responses you take umbrage against.

You made your bed, now sleep in it.

[e-RICHIE]

When you state:



I beg to differ with you Sir. Your statement at the top seems to be a pretty thinly-veiled slight against engineers. Hence, you come across as pretty disingenuous, and your statements elicited the responses you take umbrage against.

You made your bed, now sleep in it.

thanks for the analysis.

i know what i typed, and what i meant, and i also personally know eric (the recipient of my post) as a wheelbuilder, a friend, and a client. how you got from my comment to him, to me intending it as a thinly-veiled slight against engineers - and from that, to call me disingenuous, is not very courteous. i don't know why you have to be so contentious.

[Fixed]

RICHIE-San is royalty in american bicycle building history and due
respect . we are very lucky to get his insight
cheers

[old_fat_and_slow]

i don't know why you have to be so contentious.

Perhaps it has a little to do with this little correspondence from across the hall:

http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f2/atmo-pick-moment-atmo-20266.html
(Scroll to page 3 and after for the good stuff.)


Do I have an axe to grind? Well, considering the brusque treatment I received from your hockey goons (er, um... moderators) and the unceremonious ejection I got from your cult, I'd say... Hell yes, I do!

YMMV, ATMO, ATMO ! !

[e-RICHIE]

thanks.
no reply to you is the one most deserved.
but it's worth it just to cache your angst.





Perhaps it has a little to do with this little correspondence from across the hall:

http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f2/atmo-pick-moment-atmo-20266.html
(Scroll to page 3 and after for the good stuff.)


Do I have an axe to grind? Well, considering the brusque treatment I received from your hockey goons (er, um... moderators) and the unceremonious ejection I got from your cult, I'd say... Hell yes, I do!

YMMV, ATMO, ATMO ! !

[old_fat_and_slow]

thanks.
no reply to you is the one most deserved.


Okey dokie ! ! !

[akelman]

OF and S, I'm not one of Richard's hockey goons -- not, by the way, that I think he needs anyone to defend him -- so I hope you'll take this as it's intended (as a polite suggestion, made with all due respect): I think it's time to let it go. I was there, reading in real time, when that other thread unspooled. And it seemed to me that you were giving as good as you were getting. Regardless, I can imagine that were I in your shoes, I'd still be smarting a bit. Still, it was just a spat. And now it's over. Let bygones be bygones.

[Keith A]

<snip>Still, it was just a spat. And now it's over. Let bygones be bygones.And please keep it out of this thread. This was a great question by the OP and some excellent discussion, so let's keep it that way.

[michael white]

what needs to be thoroughly analyzed here is how a forum for those professing interest in bikes could get so totally off track, that I can't imagine anyone finding anything of interest here (though I did enjoy the mental picture of Richie's team bikes, and wondering if I could feel any difference). Whether engineers can be creative or dogs can friend cats or strippers can be senators is like, uh . . . what were we talking about?

[akelman]

I don't want to live in a nation where strippers can't grow up to be senators, thank you very much.

[wallymann]

...and i'd like to propose a way to look at this to get a sense for "what really matters" in terms of contribution to a bike's "ride" vs. how they're constructed.

assuming component-spec to be identical (i.e., using the same components and wheels and tyres) my sense is that these are the factors that affect the way a bike rides (in descending order of magnitude):

1. geometry spec (basic geometric layout of the frame/fork has most significant effect)
2. material spec (tubeset and lugset, encompassing metallurgy/thickness/shape/geometry/etc have the next biggest effect).
3. builder (experience/technique/etc have the smallest effect)

also, my sense is that there is a massive delta in magnitude-of-effect as you go from one level to the next down the list. i.e., #1 has a massively greater effect on ride than #2 (the BG article posted elsewhere in this thread supports this notion). further, #2 has a massively greater effect on ride than #3 (this one is perhaps up for debate).

for discussion, if we think about this effect-on-ride as something that can be broken into a percentage, i'd suggest that #1 has 95% of the effect (at least -- arguably more). and #2 contributes >=4% of the effect. and #3 contributes less than 1% of the effect.

it would be interesting to reprise this BG experiment, instead changing the builder: identical tubesets and lugsets shipped to 10 different builders to be built with identical geometry. each tubeset/lugset would be as identical as possible, as measured empirically, for mass and stiffness and ideally from the same production lot to get metallurgy as similar as possible. once built, send all framesets to JB to be identically finished (a neutral 3rd party).

basically, we'd take factors #1 and #2 off the table, then do a blind test to see if riders can actually feel the magical and fleeting difference that competent builders can impart to a bike's ride. also, i would suggest doing some empirical measurement of a range of frameset stiffness characteristics, to establish if there are: a) any real differences in the framesets that can be measured, b) how big/small those differences might be and where they are, and c) if there's any correlation between those empirically measured differences and the findings of the rider's "on the road feel" blind-test.

now...does anyone know how to get a hold of Cote to get this going?!?!

good stuff guys!

[SoCalSteve]

Since this thread has history between E-Ritchie and old fat and slow going back 3 weeks from across the hall, I feel that I need to close this thread, have a bit of a chat with OF and S and move on from here.

Thanks all for understanding!