More "ultra" training advice needed (that means you, Too Tall and RABikes2!)

[scrooge]

I couple of weeks ago I asked for a little advice on how to train for the upcoming 24 hour challenge I'm trying in a few weeks (June 18-19). Thanks for the helpful advice that was given then. A few updates: I've been riding with Cytomax (it says it has electrolites, but I don't know how it compares to other). I've tried Gu's, but they seem like I'm ingesting pure sugar and seem to be a bit much. Cookies and Creme power bars are tasty, cliff bars not so tasty (not terrible I guess).

On to more important things. I've gotten in a century and a solo 120 ride (how I spent my Memorial Day!) and am going to do an organized century this weekend and then try to tack on some extra miles at the end. I'm wondering if that should be my last long ride, or if I should try to fit another one in on Saturday, June 11 (that would leave me a week to recover before the event).

I'm also wondering about stratagy for the day of the event. My thought is that I'll try to reign myself in and go a couple mph slower than I usually do. I can usually average 18 fairly easily (I think I did 18.4 on an 80 miler this year in the area of the ride and felt pretty good) so I was thinking that if I drop it down in the 15-16 mph range, that will enable me to ride longer. However, I'm wondering if my logic is on. Obviously, it will take me longer to cover the same distance (though not significantly), so would I be better off shooting fo 17ish and figuring that if I get toasted sooner I'll have gone (slightly) farther? This seems like a bad idea to me, but thought I'd try it out on the experts . . .

Speaking of pace: I'm also wondering if I should start out a little faster on the 130 mile loop (pace lines are allowed) and figure my average will drop throughout the day, or keep it slow from the get go. Is there such a thing as too slow? Will I end up being less efficient with my body by trying to go slower than is "natural?

Also, I'm starting to toy around with the idea of shooting for the full 24. I'm wondering if at a certain point it becomes mainly a mind game (I know I've still got to keep the bike moving, but you know what I mean . . .)

The other thing I'm wondering about (and think I know the answer to) is what bike I should use. Back in February, I ordered a new steel rig/carbon fork that is supposed to be set up for longer distances (less saddle to bar drop, will hopefull fit a little better in general). Long story short, I still haven't gotten it :crap: Even if it comes this week, would I be a fool to try to switch bikes this close to the event? (I'm going to stop here--this has been very frustrating to me!!)

Any input is appreciated as always. Thanks for reading my ramblings!

[wanderingwheel]

I still have much to learn regarding ultras, but here's some thoughts on pacing. I think you should go ahead and ride at your normal speed or close to it, especially if it puts you in a pace line. However, be very careful to keep a steady effort. Sprinting up hills or away from stops is just asking for problems later in the ride and you won't gain much time doing it. If you end up in a pace line that's unsteady, it may be smarter to let it go rather than deal with the constant surges. Of course what I really mean here is do as I say not as I do.

Try to get some long night rides in if you want to ride the full 24 hours. I have found that my speed drops considerably in the night simply from navigation and debris avoidance. A little practice should make you more comfortable at night and give you back some of the lost speed.

Conventional wisdom would say keep with your current bike, but you may benefit form using the new bike. If you are starting to feel uncomfortable after 100 miles on your current bike, it will probably feel like a midieval torture device towards the end of the ultra. Gingerly riding along with only your fingertips on the bar tops is not a great way to knock out miles (yup, been there many times). In this case, the new bike may have been a better choice.

Sean

[Too Tall]

Change is bad dewd. Dance with the bike you brought.
Less simple carbs my man is better. At this point you should have a fueling strategy and be able to tell me how many calories / hr. with how much liquid and approx. electrolytes you are taking in. This is on the bike math stuff you need to track. Look at the packaging of your drink mix and sports bars, that will tell you how much sodium is there. Are you eating at a rate of about 325 cals. / hr. with one large water bottle? 300-600 milligrams of Sodium per hr. is the range likely to work.

E-caps has an excellent electrolyte capsule (endurolytes) and their drink mixes are pretty well simple carb free. Another good sodium supplement source is a product called "Succeed"...it works for alot of people.

For example I'll show you what the sodium profile is for the e-caps drinks and cytomax at a serving size of 100 cals. (eg if you measured 100 cals. worth of whatever it will have this much sodium):

calories sodium
------------------------------------------
Perpetuem 100 89 mg
Sustained Energy 100 33 mg
HEED 100 25 mg
Cytomax 100 110 mg

Sooooo, if you comsume 300cals worth of Cytomax / hr. you will be on the low side of my suggested intake of sodium....but everyone is different, ain't it BE-U-TEE-FULL :) So...if this was working than I'd say you are on the right track.

RE-LAX, you are doing GREAT. This is a very personal goal, it is not about winning or beating a "time", it's your gig so enjoy the heck out of it.

Regarding pace. I've got to loosely quote John Hughes who told me this once while I was having a bad day "Hey, don't kill yourself trying to hang onto someone elses pace, there is always a paceline going your speed just behind you" ;)

[Andreu]

paraphrase Sr. toot who paraphrased someone else....never ever end up on the road by yourself...wait and suck wheels.
A

[scrooge]

Thanks for the encouragement/advice.
If I'm hearing ya'll correctly,
1. I should just ride where I'm comfortable while making sure I don't push it to hard.
2. I need more calories (power bars and cliff bars each have about 250--I've been eating one every other hour with something else (a gue, PB sandwhich etc) in between).
3. More Electrolytes--I'll try ecaps this weekend.
4. Paceline, paceline, paceline!

Anyone have any good (cheap) lighting suggestions? I do have one that I tried last week (a nite hawk) but it wasn't terribly bright and it only lasts 4 hours before it needs a recharge.

[scrooge]

By the way--anyone want to give advice about when to do my last long ride? Is it stupid to put in a century or so the week before? Will that give me enough recovery time?

[wanderingwheel]

The latest generation of LED lights work well enough for me. Look for either a 1 watt light or the 5 LED light from Cateye (HL-EL300). They are not perfect, but they work as well as or better than any disposable battery powered halogen and thier battery life is outstanding. The biggest problem I've had is on wet roads the light beam just seems to disappear.

Since I would ride the century one week before, you can be sure that it is a bad idea.

Sean

[Too Tall]

Ride the century with lights attached.

If you are a clever fellow just follow the Americans with ze nice lights...sorry it's a PBP joke.

Cateye has nice stuff. If you have the luxury, have spare fully ready system(s) ready at your car / rest spot and just swap.

A nice light for repairs and queue sheet reading is one of those quarter size jobs that all the sports stores sell. Just tape it to your helmet. Don't bother with a fancy headband type light.

[RABikes2]

I'm sorry Scrooge, I spaced and didn't answer though I think you've gotten some great advice already.

You haven't said what type of course this is. If you're doing loops, food and fluid (jugs of H2o for mixing, ready made food) can be made a lot easier. Refills and food at the car.

My 'strategy' on food and fluids isn't as scientific as TT's is (and I'm positive his advice is much better and I will be changing my habits to listen to him), but it has worked for me now. I've been using Accelerade due to the protein in it. It's a personal thing, my body craves protein. And instead of 1 scoop per large bottle, I use it weaker at 1/2-3/4 scoop. I have myself convinced it tastes like Key Lime Pie. I carry two large water bottles w/ Accelerade and a 50 oz. Camelback w/ just water. I make up prepackaged servings enough for 2 bottles (in ziplock baggies) and carry enough packages for 2 bottles every 40 miles. I use GU's, but as I found out last year on my 600k, after 12 of them, I wasn't very cheerful even looking at a GU wrapper, so I try to space them out. I've found carrying a few peanut butter and jelly (sm. amt. of jelly) sandwiches have helped me tremendously. I make them prior to the ride, squoosh them flat, and cut in fours, put in a zip lock bag. Real easy to handle while riding, eat a section at a time. (I want REAL food usually around 150-200 miles when on the road for a brevet, Subway is my favorite for a plain 6" turkey sub w/ lettuce and tomato.) I also enjoy all the varieties of Nature Valley Granola and Trail Mix bars.

From what you've said and especially since this is your first 24 hr., pace yourself. Start the ride comfortably and ride in a comfortable paceline, try not to surge. Best advice I ever received was to ride MY pace, not somebody else's. And it is better if you can ride w/ another rider or a few, but if they are too fast or too slow for you, there'll usually be another rider along the way that you can go with.

I totally agree with TT on the bike change...NOT a good idea this close to the ride. Stay with what you've been working with. I found night riding to be intimidating the first time I did it, mostly because my lighting s**ked. I improved the lighting system and even though it's more weight on my bike, I feel better out there. Speeds do slow at night, there's a lot to be aware of and looking for, you're tired and it's mentally taxing trying to be alert, watching out even more than ever. I use the Cyclone NiteRider (not cheap) mounted on my Profiles (especially terrific if you are the main light) or as TT has said, find the guys with the good lights. (I get it TT :) ) I use a Cateye Opti-Cube on my helmet for reading the que sheet or looking at my computer. I have found this light to be invaluable (light, and easy); great piece of equipment. I did use the Cateye EL-300 (2 of them) at first, but remember how I said my lighting s**ked :rolleyes:, the lighting was too diffused, but I've changed to a Cateye EL-500 as my secondary light and it's good, especially when in a paceline with other lights. I use my NiteRider sparingly in a paceline and it can last 6+ hrs. depending on usage (I also have a second battery if needed).

Would I ride a century the weekend before the 24hr? :D Maybe, probably, okay maybe two 75 milers. Oh geez, asking me that question is not a good idea. :p

Again, relax! This is your first 24 hr. Enjoy and get a feel for what really works for you, what doesn't, how can you improve on nutrition or fluid intake. This isn't a race for this distance (at least not this time) and you are going to be 'testing' yourself. You are going to find out a lot about yourself; mentally and physically. It can be a real spiritual experience. The more of these I do, the more I learn and understand about myself.

Most of all Scrooge, HAVE FUN! Smile and take in what you are accomplishing!

I'll be pushing for you! Please let us know how it goes!
Enjoy! Enjoy! Enjoy!
RA

[RABikes2]

Scrooge,

How's the training coming along? Your 24 hr. is next weekend; feeling ready?! :)

RA

[scrooge]

"Ready" is a stretch.
I didn't have much time to ride this week--so I think I made a dumb training mistake. I figured if I can't go far, I should go hard (I had done a 25 and 35 mile ride during the week). So Friday night I hammered out 36 miles about as hard as I could go, (tied my fastest ride of the year, but this one was 16 miles longer) then Saturday I put in about 60 before getting a few flats and having to have my wife pick me up after #3. At least I learned something--patch kits suck, carry more tubes. Also, hot and humid makes it much harder work (as I'm sure you Floridians know)--pray for cool weather (forcast is 78 and partly cloudy--sounds good to me!)
I think I'm also figuring out the eating thing, which is good.
I did meet some other guys who are riding the event on a century last week and felt encouraged--I hate to admit it because I sound like a prick, but it was the "I'm-in-better-shape-then-he-is-and-he-rode-it last-year-so-I-guess-I-can-do-this-too" sort of encouragement. Maybe a little ego isn't all bad for this sort of thing.
So, I'm geared up and excited to go (and get it done, truth be told). My strategy is to ride steady-eddy in a pace line and keep on the bike as much as possible (I've been told that one of the big mistakes is letting rest stops get too long). Right now, I think the sleep thing will be my biggest challenge (I've fallen asleep standing up before).

So, yes, I'm excited. Nervous, but excited.

[RABikes2]

[QUOTE=scroogeAlso, hot and humid makes it much harder work (as I'm sure you Floridians know)--pray for cool weather (forcast is 78 and partly cloudy--sounds good to me!)
My strategy is to ride steady-eddy in a pace line and keep on the bike as much as possible (I've been told that one of the big mistakes is letting rest stops get too long). Right now, I think the sleep thing will be my biggest challenge (I've fallen asleep standing up before).

So, yes, I'm excited. Nervous, but excited.[/QUOTE]
You haven't said where (town?) is the ride, what type of a course (loop, loop repeats, out and back, ?), and what type of terrain?

You received good advice; have your rest stops planned out prior to pulling in for the stop. Do the necessary stuff and get back on the road.

You're going to do great Scrooge! I won't know how your ride went until I get back, so "pull on my energy" as needed.

Sending positive thoughts ;)
RA

[scrooge]

You haven't said where (town?) is the ride, what type of a course (loop, loop repeats, out and back, ?), and what type of terrain?

You received good advice; have your rest stops planned out prior to pulling in for the stop. Do the necessary stuff and get back on the road.

You're going to do great Scrooge! I won't know how your ride went until I get back, so "pull on my energy" as needed.

Sending positive thoughts ;)
RA

Hi RA
The ride is held near Grand Rapids, MI which makes the start about 45 minutes from my home--bonus there being that I can sleep in my own bed the night before and I've had a chance to ride in in that area before (not the exact route, but I've been able to train in the terrain).

The ride is set up on a loop system. First is a lap around 120 miles, then have to finish at least one lap of about 25 miles before dusk (both these have rolling hills) then a night loop (fairly flat) of about 6 miles.

Right now I'm still trying to figure out lighting. I went to my LBS this afternoon looking for a Cateye El 500 or 300 (I think that's the numnber) but they didn't have it and the guy there (who's done 24 hr MTB races) was insistant that I should try, at minum, a nite rider system or a Light & Motion system (on sale for 150). Hmmm.

Hey--have a wonderful time on RAAM!! That's just awesome!

[gdw]

The guy at the bike shop is giving you good advice for offroad events but the gear he recommends is overkill for your ride. The Cateye LED lights are all you need to see the road and be seen by motorists. Higher powered lights are needed for offroad riding where uneven ground, rocks, roots, etc. can send you flying if you can't clearly see them in the dark.

[RABikes2]

Sounds like a great course; the first 120 mile lap should go amazingly quick. Yahoo! :D
Now not knowing this course, terrain, or area, maybe I am over cautious.
However, without repeating what I wrote above in post # 9 about my lighting system, you'll likely be fine with an EL-500 and a Cateye Opti-Cube on your helmet (my suggestion, great piece of equipment) for this ride. Check out what other distance riders are using; Cateye lights, NiteRider, Schmidt hubs (Peter White does great work and gets high praise from distance riders using his system). Get their opinions, ask questions, and follow them to see how well their system works; what suits YOUR needs. If ( :p ) you decide to continue in distance riding, then you will have good knowledge on how you want to spend your money.

Here's an article that verifies my feelings on good lighting and the NiteRider system. http://www.cccyclists.org/article.php3?this_id=421

Go get 'em Scrooge; have a blast. Thanks for your RAAM thoughts!

RA ;)